Can you explain this apparent contradiction regarding the death of Jesus?

There could have been a Christianity if Christ could have made his teachings well known without his death. After all, it is the teachings of Jesus Christ that makes for a Christian, not his death and resurrection.
And Jesus was a Jew and therefore killed by his own ilk, so is that such a bad thing?
Maybe Jesus was responsible for his own death since opening his big fat mouth is what got him in trouble!

Before we go any further, I’m not a Christian. I’m a nothing when it comes to that sort of thing.

The resurrection is what made Christianity. There were plenty of prophets and preachers in the Middle East at the time of Jesus, and one of them, John the Baptist , had quite a following.
But the resurrection is what validated Jesus’s divine connection.
Being a fan of Jesus is one thing. Being a Christian is another.

Check your dictionary: By definition, being a Christian is being a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Of the three dictionaries I checked, not one mentions the resurrection as a defining point of the term.

Being a Christian means believing in the gospel. The gospel means believing that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected three days later as prophesied in the Old Testament. It is also following and Believing in Jesus.

The death and resurrection of Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament, and had to be fulfilled. All of God’s promises are kept.
I don’t see the Jews killing Christ as anything other than the necessary step.
However, I don’t understand their continued dismissal of Him.

First of all, the Jews didn’t kill Christ. He was killed by the Romans who were ruling Canaan at that time. Please stop repeating that.

Second of all, @filmfann there is no continual dismissal of Christ. Jews just don’t believe he was the son of G-d, that he was resurrected and that he is the Messiah. That’s what makes us Jewish, not Christian.

I usually stay far away from questions of religion, but…

To some, the true blame falls on Judas for his betrayal of Jesus to the Roman soldiers; and to a certain some, this act was a sacrifice that Judas performed in order for Jesus to fulfill his destiny. In this view, only someone as loyal as Judas could be willing to blacken his own name for all eternity in order to further the divine plan.

I have no doubt that the killing of Dumbledore by Snape, and the huge plot twist that revolves around this act of seeming betrayal, is modeled on that story. Rowling knows her lore.

A) It’s not a club, it’s a religion. Your comment is very disrespectful imo.

B) If you believe in God, you believe He is omnipotent and all knowing. Without posting verses of the bible for nonbelievers, as a Christian I believe Jesus’ life and death were all pre-ordained.

C) No, I would not thank anyone who mocked, spit on, tortured or killed Jesus, his apostles or anyone else. My gratefulness goes to Jesus who went through a ‘human’ life knowing what was to come and did it anyway, for us.

PS I have nothing but love for the entire Jewish community, regardless of what sect they are or their belief system. Politically I will continue to support them, as will millions of Christians around the world.

Religion is entirely about contradiction, Jesus…everyone knows that.

@ucme One of these days I’d love to find out what you really believe about anything, mr funny man. :)

@KNOWITALL

Every time I hear a newborn baby cry
Or touch a leaf
Or see the sky
Then I know why
I believe…

You best of heard me singing that in my best baritone :D

@ucme But of course, milord. Quite impressed.

Just because an event is destined to happen, does not absolve the agent of destiny of its guilt or responsibility.

Also.
Do not even try to deny the west’s guilt for the old and new continents’ own antisemitism, by maliciously employing the phrase “some people say”.
The existence of the doctrine of deicide is a fact.
Its use to justify and it being the basis of historical European antisemitism is a fact.
Your feeble attempt to intentionally mislabel these facts as opinions of a minority is an insult of the highest degree, and I expect you to apologise for that.

My view point as a Christian is that Jesus HAD to die. Even the Jewish religion tells there will be a messiah that comes to save the people. But they just didn’t (don’t) believe that Jesus was it. They viewed him more as a heretic at the time. But Jesus knew going into it that he would die. I think the Jewish church leaders of the time, the Pharisees and Sadducees, did what was needed in the plan of God…indeed they had no choice. I hold them no ill will at all.
But without Jesus dying, as you say, there could have been no resurrection and Christianity would not have started.

@ragingloli Who are you talking to?

@seawulf575 Exacty.

The OP.

1. Everyone dies.

2. Seems to me part of the way the Bible glorifies Jesus is by having him occur as a threat-to-others’-religious-authority who’s seen as significant enough to have killed.

3. To answer the question, I think that if the story were that Jesus preached and spread wisdom and had followers and then died in peace, that there would/could still be followers and a religion – it would just have different stories and a different focus. Perhaps even a focus with more attention on Jesus’ wisdom rather than the folly that got made of the resurrection etc. It might have been less appropriate for imperialism and seducing Roman emperors into adopting it and less prone to eradicating other faiths, though, however that might have played out differently.

The death of the god (and, indeed, the symbolic eating of the god, which is what the Christian communion is) is a tradition much older than Christianity. The resurrection part is crucial in many of the stories. It’s a recurring motif in ancient religions and is typically associated with the death and rebirth of vegetation. The Jesus story is a relatively recent variation on a theme.

Yes, not much of the Bible is original. A semi-original part is pretending it’s rehashing is the Word of God and only true in this one flavor, and that all other faiths (including the ones it cough stole its ideas from cough) are false.

@ragingloli
I feel best when everybody is happy.
You are clearly unhappy. It is apparent from most of your posts on this site, and possibly from your response to my question.
You imply that an apology might make you happy.

I apologize.

I offer this in the hope that it makes you happy, that it improves your attitude and thus your life. I am sincere in this hope. I have, in my life and career, done things that I am not totally comfortable with. I don’t regret them, but I still want to offset them with better things.

So, I apologize.

Having said that, what bothers you is my observation that “Some people say…” Plus your assumption that I am intentionally trying to mislabel people’s intentions.

In fact, what I said is true. Some people do say that.
But in fact, others do not. Some anti-Semites have reasons (questionable certainly, but reasons) for their bias that is not based on deicide.
Some people are not anti-Semitic at all and wonder what all the shit is about. That would probably include me.
I understand everybody has their biases. I may not agree with them, but in my time and place, I have to deal with it. I can’t change it with a post on a Q and A site like Fluther.

Finally, I am not intentionally trying to mislabel anything. You are entitled to overthink my intentions. In fact, that is what this site is all about. The tendency to be hyper offended, hyper devastated, hyper appalled, etc.
It’s what makes Fluther sort of interesting.

But it puts a governor on anybody who has a contrary opinion. Or who is not eloquent enough to express their opinions in terms that are acceptable to the collective.

I do not give a shit about the former. It may be true of me about the latter, but I still do not give a shit.

There you go.

I mean no disrespect to Christians, but I don’t get it. After leaving Earth, Jesus became a god, part of the Trinity, answering people’s prayers. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Well…something to consider is that in about the 4th century there was a meeting by the heads of Rome designed to edit / modify / “clarify” the scrolls and testaments. The council of Niacia? Something…. Did the Roman leaders feel that the Jews were a threat at that time? Did they “edit” their new and improve manuscript to influence people accordingly?

To me it’s an example of ends don’t justify the means. The ends were great, yes, but the means were still wrong, no matter if it had to be done.

From Matthew:

“But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

That’s pretty unfortunate for Judas. He was part of a chain of events that would better the world, but is still damned for the role he played in it, which shows that even though this is all to a good end, the actions that bring it about are evil and remain evil, no matter what the result. What @ragingloli said, “just because an event is destined to happen, does not absolve the agent of destiny of its guilt or responsibility” is spot on.

Also from Matthew:

“All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!””

This is the line most frequently used throughout history to justify Christian hatred of the Jews. In this line the Jews and their descendants are apparently cursed for the role they played in Jesus’ death.

What’s interesting to me is the differing tone of the Gospels. Matthew and John are fairly harsh on the Jews. Mark not as much. In Matthew, Pilate is completely absolved of guilt; in Mark, he isn’t. He’s more just presented as an overseer without much concern for what’s going on other than placating the crowd. But Matthew specifically has him wash his hands of guilt, thus taking the blame off the Romans and onto the Jews. Matthew’s goal was to convert Jews with his Gospel, so this makes sense. He wanted to make it clear that the crowd who rejected Jesus was 100% wrong, so you (the 1st century Jewish reader) best not reject him too.

^^ Again, it is all filtered through the editors of the council of Nicea, probably as part of a power grab. There is just no way to know how the original spirit read.

Jesus didn’t make the Christian religion. He never called it that. He was a Jew. Also his death was preordained. And according to the story, it wasn’t Pontius Pilot who wanted his death. It was the Jewish elders and the people who joined them in wanting his blood.

(Hmm. kind of reminds me of Trump and his followers)

@Pandora Jesus was indeed a Jew and according to the bible, he didn’t violate the Jewish law…the 10 Commandmants. He is the only one ever to have accomplished that. And Pilate was the Roman governor at the time but you are correct, it was the Jewish elders. That is what I mentioned already…the Pharisees and the Sadducees. They begged Pilate to put Jesus to death, but he couldn’t find a reason to do so. Jesus had not violated any Roman laws. AND Pilates wife also was pleading with him to spare Jesus’ life. Pilate offered to just beat Jesus and have done with it, but the Jewish Elders weren’t to be satisfied with that. In a last ditch effort, Pilate threw the responsibility back onto the elders by giving them the choice of saving one criminal…Jesus (who had embarassed them) or Barabbas (a murderer). They opted for freeing Barabbas. You were doing so well, up until your foolish attempt to paint Trump and anyone that likes him as blood-thirsty cretins. At that point you went from informed to being a liberal mouthpiece. But thanks for playing.

@seawulf See what we should be doing is analyzing why people today aka racists, still hold it against them. And why so many are Democrats today.

My husband and I had a conversation last night about this. In our world, we know and love many LGBT’s but we cant imagine the staunch Dems we know, in the same room as our trans friend or a gay couple of guys we know. Its so odd to us, what we see. Now not all my Rep friends are tolerant, I admit, but more Reps seem openminded about these matters than Dems, here. Just an observation that I thought you may think about, since you understand the gray areas better than most.

One last time. The Jews did not kill Jesus. The Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, did. The Jewish leaders (not the same as the Jewish people) might have been in favor, because it was in their interest to suck up to the Romans, and they might have resented Jesus’ criticism of how they ran the Temple. The choice of death by crucifixion, reserved for those considered to threaten Roman rule, was made by Pilate, and was considered an embarrassment by early Christians. This article gives a good explanation of what was happening.

@LostInParadise I think that rather than going to Slate, and uber-left outlet, to find out about this stuff, you probably ought to go to the bible. The Slate article is full of errors and bad assumptions. One assumption, that Jesus claimed to be King of the Jews and that claiming to be a king was enough to warrant a death sentence by Rome is wrong on many levels. Jesus never claimed to be king of the Jews. Others called him that, but he never claimed that. He claimed that his kingdom was waiting for him after life; was “not of this world”. Additionally, the Jews had kings during Roman times. In fact, Herod the Great was appointed “King of the Jews” by the Roman Senate in 40 BC.
When Jesus was arrested, he was tried by the Jews twice. More specifically, he was tried by the temple elders…the Jewish religious leaders. The second trial was when they took him to Pontius Pilate. Pilate told them to judge him according to their laws (another sign that Rome allowed the Jews their own hierarchal society under Roman rule) but they said they weren’t allowed to pass a death sentence on anyone. Pilate interviewed Jesus and found no fault with him. The Jews pushed him back to Pilate for punishment and Pilate, having a tradition of releasing one Jewish criminal at Passover, offered the Jew the choice of either Jesus or Barabbas. The Jews chose Barabbas, condemning Jesus to death.
So while the death physically was at the hands of the Romans, it was done at the behest of the Jews. Pilate was a politician and while he found no fault with Jesus, he knew that politically it was easier and probably better to help the Jews.

@KNOWITALL I understand the question. I think that, as a Christian, I cannot hold the crucifixion of Christ against the Jews. If I am to believe my teachings and the teachings of Jesus, then that whole thing played out IAW God’s will. And with his death, Jesus paid the price for my sins. Why would I want to blame someone for that? It makes no sense.

@seawulf575 , Without getting into a discussion of biblical accuracy, we can agree that it was the Jewish leadership and not all Jews who conspired against Jesus. Additionally, the choice of crucifixion was not to be taken lightly. This was something that was a deliberate choice by Pilate.

@KNOWITALL I don’t think most anti-Semites are anti-Semites because of the “deicide” argument. I think most of them have other prejudices against them, ethnic hatred, or a belief in “zionist conspiracies” and the deicide argument is just one among many. Any small community that is outside the mainstream will generate all kinds of conspiracies about them.

And obviously not all anti-Semites are Christians, but historically many of them were. There’s a certain rage people feel when their religion/God is rejected (which may have been a root of some of the earliest prejudice. Early Christians easily converted many peoples, but many Jews resisted). There’s a reason why some Muslim communities put people to death who leave the religion. (I actually met a couple Christians who believed the Holocaust was a consequence of the Jews killing and rejecting Jesus).

@Demosthenes You’re probably right, I’ve not had many in-depth conversations about this particular prejudice and why it exists, to those people. In general, I know who they hate, but not necessarily why (from their pov.)

@LostInParadise I agree, though I don’t read anything into the method of death. There were other criminals on crosses when Jesus got there…it was what they did. And in the end, as a Christian, I don’t blame anyone for Jesus’ death. That’s the part that seems so odd to me when people talk like there is some blood feud between Christians and Jews.

I wonder if the hatred of Jews comes from the idea that they are good with money and have been viewed as “the wealthy”.

@seawulf575 If I may offer my opinion, it’s because many (not all) Christians vote Republican (abortion, LGBTQ, SSM, etc…) Thus some people who do not use critical thinking skills, will assume that all Christians are racists.
(Which means they hate Jewish people? Never heard any Christian say that,ever.)

“The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing”
Graffiti on a whitechapel wall during the Jack the Ripper murders.
Nowt to do with the question really, just showing off historical facts :D

@ucme The range of your knowledge/ answers is astonishing, sir. haha

@KNOWITALL It’s a gift, what more can I say? ;-}

I don’t think anyone is listening to anyone here…

@seawulf575 I did write that Jesus was a Jew. And as for discounting what I see playing out in our current politics doesn’t mean that I suddenly went from informed to uniformed just because you believe if I don’t agree with your politics than suddenly I must be ignorant. I compare the two because it was politics and greed that was the real murder. What is being played out against the Jews of today and during WWII, was politics. Nothing to do with faith. Faith is always an easy target because it is easier to get people angry over faith, it is an easier vehicle in which to manipulate the masses. Everything to do with control. BTW, I consider myself as a progressive. There will be a time for all of us to be still and not move forward and go back in time. It’s called being dead and decaying. I am neither right now.

@Pandora peace! I was agreeing with you except for the part of Pilate wanting Jesus dead. There is nothing showing that to be true. Beyond that, there is some politics to hating Jews these days. I’m in agreement with you. The comment I made about you falling from informed to being a liberal mouthpiece, I stand by it. This thread was about contradictions regarding the death of Jesus. You felt fully compelled on that topic to suddenly try slamming Trump and his followers. THAT is what turned you to a liberal mouthpiece. You did it, you said it….just own it.

Religions are LOADED with contradictions, and they’re great at getting people killed…

I have indeed heard people say that Jews killed Jesus before.

All I can say, is that if you believe all of the Jesus stuff, why not believe that too. I think the question is sensible, and the answers from theists just confuses me further on how they could believe any of this.

I’m quite surprised that an omnipotent, all knowing deity wouldn’t have just recorded all of this on a video camera. That way there would be no doubts about any of this. Unless we’re suggesting that a being that created the universe, and all life, was incapable of creating a video camera, and a way to view the recordings…

@MrGrimm888 would a video tape help you to understand what God wants for you or what the death of Jesus meant? If all you want is a video, go watch Passions of the Christ. It is a fairly accurate representation of what happened. Does that change anything for you?

@MrGrimm888
Yeah, watch this video

@ragingloli interesting. So you were against Mahatma Ghandi using passive aggression to free India from British rule? Good to know.

@MrGrimm So a timeless deity should have recorded the beginning of everything so you could believe it. Thats a lot of ignorant deities from many religions then. So basically if you cant see it or touch it, it doesnt exist? Wow, that is so sad.

^There are many things that I cannot see, or hear, like atoms. But they can be proven to exist. Believing what men want you to believe, so they can manipulate you, “that is so sad.”...

@seawulf575 . Yes. A video would help a LOT. Actually, any evidence at all would go a long way to making the story even remotely plausible.
Passions of the Christ. I concede I have not watched it. But it would have no claims to legitimacy for the same reasons why no other religious stories or texts do. They are all conceived by men. None have any evidence of any of the “magical” stuff ever happening. In fact, science has revealed a far more magical universe than any of the men who concocted these religious stories could have ever imagined.

Where has religion gotten this world? It has negatively impacted every single life on Earth, whether a person is aloof enough to understand that they are being manipulated or not. If there was indeed a Jesus, religion can be credited with his death as well.

@MrGrimm888 Well religion and politics, I’d say, for Jesus’ death (looking at it from a secular point of view. I fully believe Jesus existed). So obviously you could say the same thing about politics.

^I agree. Politics is also a man made concept, intended to manipulate and control people.

In America, politicians use religion to manipulate people. It works really well.

I agree that religion is man-made and is used to manipulate and has been a negative force throughout history. I also think it’s been a positive force. In art, music, philosophy, and individual lives. I don’t think we’re going to agree on that. Just stating my views. :)

Politics…ehh…it seems to bring people down more than anything. It’s when people act outside of politics that we get the real positive stuff.

^I agree that religion contributed some positive things. But I think we would have different, and better positive things without it. Think of medical science. Without religion holding it back for thousands of years, we might all be living without diseases, and have vastly improved experiences with quality of life. That’s just a single example of how it has hurt us…

@MrGrimm888
This, basically

@MrGrimm888 there is historical accuracies in the bible, believe it or not. People and places align. Examples Pontius Pilate was a roman governor and was in Judea at the time frame the bible says he was. Herod was the Jewish king. He actually wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar and the Roman Senate that talks about both Pontius Pilate and Jesus of Nazareth.
And there is other events that were documented by other people. The Egyptians for instance have records of the 7 years of famine that Joseph predicted. They have documentation that matches up to the visit of Moses and the 7 plagues as well as the exodus of the Jews. These things are documented in several places. Sorry they didn’t have video tapes at the time, but they did the best they could.
All that being said, I still have the attitude that if you don’t believe, you don’t believe. Your loss in my mind. You won’t find an actual video of the times and I suspect that if you did, you would question its validity.

Yes, there are accuracies in the Bible, to claim that it has nothing historically accurate in it is demonstrably false. There are accuracies in the Qur’an as well. It doesn’t prove much beyond that.

There are also issues, such as the fact that the Census of Quirinius didn’t take place when Luke claimed it did or in the manner than he described, or the conflicting accounts of Judas’ death. Even more issues when you try and claim that the Bible is scientifically accurate, when it was never intended to be a scientific treatise.

@Demosthenes I absolutely agree. It was not written as a scientific fact. In fact most of the New Testament is in the epistolary form….letters from one person to another. Not a scientific treatise at all. But @MrGrimm888 seemed to be saying there was nothing showing fact in the bible at all. I just gave him several examples.

That’s fair. :) I come across people who act like because they don’t believe the theology of the Bible that means it must all be false, and that’s dogmatism from atheists, really.

A lot of fiction uses real places and people.
Remember Captain America punching Hitler in the face?

@ragingloli that is true. Now let’s look at how those were written. The stories of Captain America started in 1941 and pretty much the same people were writing them or at least have had editorial control from most of that time. Now compare that with the Bible. Some of the books of the Bible were “penned” by Moses, some by Solomon, David, Samuel….the list goes on. at least 35 authors in all. They were written over 1500 years. The authors did not collaborate with each other. Yet amazingly their story lines all line up. Seems a real stretch to say this was all fiction like a comic book. But hey! that’s your issue, not mine.

No they do not.
Some of the accounts directly contradict each other.

This is insane. We have people coming to virtual blows over an invisible, mythological being, and a man who probably never really existed.

@Dutchess Over a faith-based religion at that. Too bad Muhammed didmt film the angel either so Grimmy and Loli could believe in Islam. I mean tgere are so many deities who really dropped the ball on ‘proof’ lol

What?

I notice that all the theists did NOT pay attention to my deliberately worded post. I NEVER claimed that there were no historical accuracies. I claimed that there is no evidence of “magical” stuff. No burning bushes. No immaculate conception. No man living in a fish. Etc…. No “miracles.” Just people flat making stuff up.

Yes. ALL religions “dropped the ball on proof.” There is more evidence that Trump is a sexual predator, than that Christianity is even remotely plausible. But his Christian following doesn’t believe the plausible accusations, backed by Trump’s own words. They DO believe in Christianity, despite absolutely NO proof…

That’s what faith is. The refusal of fact, and acceptance of rumors, or lies, with no evidence.
And so we are here. People with faith, apparently are swayed by lies, and baseless claims. They will gladly bet the farm that they are right, with NO proof. And endanger, or kill countless people over their baseless beliefs, if they think it suits their god…

I think that’s why Trumpers listen to Trump. They are already conditioned to be led by lies, and manipulation…

I don’t believe in ANY religion. I find the very notion preposterous, and short sighted. I understand that people are afraid of their mortality. I understand that thy feel a need for a purpose, to keep them sane. I totally understand.

The people who invented, and used religions also knew this. And they used that weakness. That common bond, to pray on people. To manipulate them. To control them. To use them…

@Dutchess Just agreeing with you to a degree.

@Dutchess_III
What she means is, that if Islam were to be proven fact, Grimm and I would be hardcore muslims going around beheading people, because we are just so evil and desperate for an excuse to engorge our bellies with the blood of our enemies.

@MrGrimm And yet the native indians were some of the most spiritual and enlightened cultures of all time. Their creation stories often fantastic, too. It’s human nature to ask where we came from.

So do you believe native religions are also means of control, or just possibly an evolution of their creation stories?

^Interesting point.

Yes. Even though these were more of “explanation” religions, they still were tools to control their people. Many religious fables have a “moral,” or direction in which those in power wanted to heard their people’s thoughts and actions.

It’s an easy scam to see, if you can truly open your eyes…

@MrGrimm Even the Maya had their Maize God, so he literally said he was the maize and got them to build him a huge burial crypt, then said he’d come back in the maize every year.

I guess we can agree it does control people by using rules generally beneficial to society, like the ten commandments. But I dont find it worse for society personally. Do not kill. Do not covet your neighbors wife or goods. Who do those harm?

^They control. That is harm, to me. You have one life. Do you want to spend it in servitude to a false profit, for the advantage of a small number of terrible people? They (the religious leaders) steal people’s lives.

What about don’t rape? Slavery? What about weapons of mass destruction? Gosh… I could go on and on. Some really important things left out of those commandments. Could a burning bush have been wrong?

Many Trumpers won’t accept the science of climate change. But they believe that a burning bush gave them their moral code?... Like…Seriously?

@MrGrimm In fact most people serve a master, whether its money or power, so essentially we are all sheep in that aspect. You worry about money right? So in effect you serve the master called capitalism.

I think many Reps acknowledge climate change, they just refuse to quit raping Mother Earth for profit. Trump says its to provide jobs as if there are no options to coalmining, like a wind or solar farm. I see your point, but posit its human nature more than anything else.

^I do indeed serve that master. And like most slaves, I hate my master… Part of my “problem,” is that there are things that I won’t do for money. Well. Not small amounts of money…

I consider your post a sort of admission to serving Trump. Is that something you are proud of? Was it worth abandoning so many values that you were taught by your God, and his teachings? Was it worth the world people will need to endure in the next 50–150 years, and beyond? Was it worth all of the inevitable war, and famine, and disease? I just can’t understand that…

@MrGrimm Our choices were limited, and no I dont feel good about it. But I may have to do it again. Every tweet or press conference makes me cringe. But vagina suits, nasty women and abortion arent my thing either. Lesser of two evils, is my only defense. Dems could have won easily with almost any other candidate, terrible strategy.

^Not the dems’ fault you sold your soul. Legal abortion is worse than destroying the world? You may need to rethink what the “lesser of two evils” is. Because of your contribution, “unaborted” children will battle early/higher rates of asthma, cancer, war, disease, and famine. I guess all of the dead bodies will make decent fertilizer…

We did win easily @KNOWITALL. We won by almost 3 million votes.

@Dutchess @MrGrimm
I refuse to discuss the electoral system again. And my soul still belongs to God, not to any President. Peace.

Give @KNOWITALL a break while she goes “LA – LA – LA- LA -LA-LA” with her hands over her ears.
Logic doesn’t work @Dutchess_III and @MrGrimm888. LA LA LA LA does.

@MrGrimm888 No proof of miracles…except of course the confirmation of the miracles in Egypt that the Egyptians confirmed.

@Dutchess_III Actually you lost…306 to 232. It is the electoral vote that counts in this country. If you won, we would be suffering through a Hillary administration and 4 more years of marching down the wrong path.

Except of course the egyption records do not, in fact, confirm anything.

@ragingloli OOhh…wrong again! But thanks for playing.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/egypt-remembers-ancient-accounts-great-exodus-002295

@seawulf575 You sir are a troll !

You have one stone, that does not support your assertion, and you have one person, who lived in the 4th century bce, well removed from any primary sources, and who used mythology and legends to compile his timelines.
So yeah, “thanks for playing.”

@Tropical_Willie :

“Give @KNOWITALL a break while she goes “LA – LA – LA- LA -LA-LA” with her hands over her ears.
Logic doesn’t work @Dutchess_III and @MrGrimm888. LA LA LA LA does.”

This is the first and only comment you made before calling me a troll. It looks amazingly like nothing but a personal attack. So you sit lurking in the background until you feel it is safe to run in and throw an insult so you can run away again. And you think I am a troll? Let me help you, you simpleton. In the Urban Dictionary, here is the definition of an Internet Troll:

A mythological internet being that lives under an internet bridge. Loves to hunt for innocent netizens.

_Common tactics: antagonizing other netizens by posting racist or offensive comments
Weakness: being outwitted or unable to antagonize others_

Funny…that pretty much describes you to a tee. Let’s review…you just jumped in to antagonize @KNOWITALL by posting an offensive comment about her. Yep. You are a troll. And a pretty sad example of the speciies, if I may say.

@seawulf575 You sir are a troll !

Funny…that pretty much describes you to a tee. Let’s review…you just jumped in to antagonize me by posting an offensive comment about me

Yep. You are a troll. And a pretty sad example of the species, if I may say.

I spelled it right SPECIES. Speaking about an idiot !—

Jesus was a radical. He was a threat to the Jewish faith.

^^^Anyway, that was always my take on why the elders wanted him gone. Even as a kid I knew it was “just politics.”

There is no such thing as “miracles,” so neither the Egyptians, nor anyone else, can prove anything. I never believed in the miracles of “virgin birth,” or “resurrection” or any of that , even when I was a practicing Christian. Even as a litle kid I knew Noah’s Ark was ridiculous. Scandalous, I know. I thought they were silly stories and deflected from much more important things, like how we treat each other.

@seawulf575 . I’m going to have to agree with Loli. If that is the only proof of ALL of the miracles that Christianity lays claim to, that’s pretty ridiculous.

After reviewing your link, I don’t think I fully understand what “miracle” is said to have occurred. Would you mind giving me a summary, for idiots? Please.

Looky here @MrGrimm888. It is proof that the world was created the magical way the Iroquios say it was.

@MrGrimm888 what that article showed was that, while the official scribes of Egypt were forbidden from even mentioning the Hebrews, they kept records of them. The guy that created that tablet did so from the scrolls in the Egyptian temples. It was a record not only that the Hebrews were in Egypt, but it also documented Moses coming and the 7 plagues that happened and the final release of the Hebrews. All that was written centuries before it showed up in the Torah or the bible, so it wasn’t like it was copied from some other source.

^So. What is the “miracle” part?

Dutch. I’ve heard that Iroquois story before. I find it interesting that so many creation stories have a lot in common.

I find that interesting too. Well, we’ve been telling the stories since we learned how to talk so some stuff just kind of stayed intact over the millennium I suppose.

Well. I think it points to our similar thinking. Like pyramids, and bows/arrows. People seemed to develop similar explanations for our existence. Note that almost every religion mentions things/beings from the sky.

There is an innate desire to understand our world. Religion was always an attempt to fill that void.

Yes, and it relates to the earth as being flooded, and the land coming later. It is all very interesting.

I saw a Nova program once that suggested that the ice caps melting, after the last ice age, which almost created another sea, might have been the inspiration for the Great Flood story. It was pretty fascinating.

It’s crazy how we don’t really know our own history.

It isn’t crazy. We do know recent history. We know of history from the time writing was invented 3200 BC…which coincides, magically, with when the Bible says creation happened.
Of course, writing wasn’t around 20,000 years ago, during the ice age so we can only speculate on events from that time period.

I don’t think it was our ability to record things. Rather it was what we recorded it on, and in many cases who destroyed it.

5,000 years isn’t much, to me…

You don’t think what was our ability to record things? Your whole comment didn’t quite make sense.

Of course 5,000 years isn’t much to anyone when compared to our 4.5 billion year history. But it’s all we have. When we learned to write and record, we wrote down the oral stories going back thousands of years. That isn’t the same thing as recording eye witness events.

I was saying that we probably had the ability to record things, before we had the sense or technology to record things on stuff that would last. Putting things in stone was a start.

Well…there were cave drawings as far back as 40,000 years ago,but the idea of writing concepts down and creating alphabets so others to could do it, too, really was a burst of genius that doesn’t come along that often. In fact, literacy itself wasn’t all that wide spread until the last few hundred years, or even in the last 100 years. I would not be surprised to know that my great great great grandparents didn’t know how to read or write.

Here is the Wikipedia aricle on it. Fascinating.
But even 40,000 years ago isn’t a drop in the bucket of the oceans of time so it isn’t surprising that we don’t know that much about our history, other than recent history.