Social Question

saint's avatar

Does the President disapprove of debate?

Asked by saint (3975points) October 7th, 2011

He keeps harping on the Congress to hurry up and pass his “jobs” bill.
Usually Congress debates and bargains before they pass anything.
That process is usually regarded as good, since it keeps Congress from acting impulsively, or in a twitch of emotional passion.
Does the pres think that deliberation is no longer necessary in the Obama Age?

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43 Answers

tranquilsea's avatar

I doubt it. I think he sees the need and wants quick action.

saint's avatar

@tranquilsea So just in this case they suspend debate and deliberation?

YoBob's avatar

Well, with the constitutionality of Obama care in question, our involvements in Middle Eastern conflicts continuing to drag on, and our economy generally tanking, I think as election time draws nearer he really needs to be able to point to something (anything) he has accomplished during his term in office.

tranquilsea's avatar

@saint of course not. As with anything it is a matter of degree. You can debate something for a day, a week or decades i.e. evolution. Do you really want your government to debate things for an unreasonable amount of time so that the net result is no decisions are made? There has to be limits and when you place limits there are going to be people who are unhappy.

Qingu's avatar

@saint remember the debate over health care reform? That “debate” sure added a lot.

One problem is that there is nothing left to debate. We’ve already hashed out all of these ideas. Republicans have already come out in favor of many ideas.

Another problem is that joblessness is a crisis and the longer it goes on, the more likely we enter a double-dip recession. Time is of the essensce and anything we can do to help should be done immediately.

Qingu's avatar

@YoBob, what has Obama accomplished during his term in office, hm.

• Passed stimulus bill which added/saved millions of jobs and prevented our economy from further tanking.
• Ledbetter Act for equal pay for women
• New START treaty with Russia
• Repealed DADT
• Passed financial reform (not ideal but way better than nothing)
• Removed combat troops from Iraq
• Reduced NATO civilian casualties in AFghanistan from over 50% to less than 10%
• Killed bin Laden
• Helped remove Qaddafi from power with no boots on the ground and minimal civilian casualties
• Killed Awlaki

Just off the top of my head

Jaxk's avatar

Let’s see as I recall, Democrats locked the door while crafting the health care bill. Doesn’t sound like they want debate. Harry Reid just changed the rules in the Senate so that Republicans can’t even offer an amendment. Doesn’t sound like they want debate. Harry Reid ‘Tabled’ the budget sent to the Senate with no debate and no vote. Doesn’t sound like they want debate. Harry Reid ‘Tabled’ the balanced budget bill sent by the house with no debate and no vote. Doesn’t sound like they want debate.

Judi's avatar

He has even called for them to debate. Right now the republicans don’t want to do that. Their only goal is to insure that the President is ineffective.

marinelife's avatar

I think that the President feels that there has been plenty of debate on this issue, and that it is time for the Republican Congress to do something about jobs and the economy.

They are dragging their feet because they feel a bad economy will help them take the next election.

Qingu's avatar

LOL Republicans offering their cute little amendments is “debate,” now?

mazingerz88's avatar

No, the President does not disapprove of debates in general, just unnecessarily prolonged ones. There is debate and there’s governance paralysis. And then there’s Eric Cantor and John Boehner.

Jaxk's avatar

@marinelife

Why then would the Democrats refuse to vote on the presidents bill. Mitch McConnel brought it up for vote and Harry Reid tabled it. Then chnaged the rules so that Republicans can’t make changes and took the bill back to (guess what) make changes. I can’t believe that even you liberal Democrats can’t see the hypocracy in that.

Qingu's avatar

Was there any indication that the Republicans were actually going to vote it through, Jaxk?

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

The democrats have a majority in the Senate. By bringing it to a vote a simple majority would pass it. If the Democrats were in favor of the bill, the Republicans would have been powerless to stop it. Reid tabled the bill because he couldn’t get enough Democrats to support it.

That is it would have passed through the Senate. (I know what stickler you are for detail).

Qingu's avatar

Uhuh. Sure it didn’t have to do anything with the fact that House Republicans would not pass it?

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

Nothing what so ever. Obama expects it to fail in the House. That’s what he wants for his campaign argument. Not passing in the Senate is a problem for him.

Qingu's avatar

So let me get this straight. You are mad at Senate dems for not wasting time passing a bill that they know would fail in the house? A bill that you believe is in fact designed to fail in the House?

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

No, that’s a bit off target. I’m not mad at the Democrats for not passing a bad bill. Do you believe that bill has a chance of passing in the House? Do you think the President is so stupid that he believes it will pass in the House? If that answer to those questions is no, then the logical conclusion is that he expects the House to vote it down so that he can use that as a campaign issue. In other words, yes it was designed to fail in the House.

What he didn’t expect was for it to fail in the Senate. How could his beloved party vote against him? Thankfully he had Harry Reid to insure it didn’t come up for a vote. Now Harry is amending the bill to try and get it to pass in the Senate. Knowing full well, his amendment will not get it to pass in the House. While also, prohibiting Republicans from amending it in such a way that it may pass the House. If there’s another way to read this strategy, I don’t see it.

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, I believe Republicans put Obama in a lose-lose situation regarding the passage of bills.

If Obama drafts a bill that he supports, Republicans refuse to pass it and say “What is he, stupid? He’s just campaigning.”

If Obama does nothing because he knows Republicans won’t cooperate, Republicans will say “Why isn’t Obama leading?”

It’s all BS, and criticizing the meta-process is a distraction from the “debate” we’re allegedly supposed to be having anyway. Of course Republicans like you aren’t interested in a debate. In an honest debate both sides should be open to changing their minds based on facts they are not aware of. You, on the other hand, have an almost religious-like faith that only tax cuts can stimulate the economy and any government jobs are somehow illusionary—and you’ve repeatedly ignored all evidence to the contrary. And you’re actually pretty reasonable compared to most Republicans.

The problem with this country is that only one political party has the intellectual honesty necessary for a real debate; that debate gets done within the Democratic party and then Republicans just say “no” to everything that isn’t a tax cut or deregulation (and even say “no” to some tax cuts… when they are proposed by Obama.)

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

Your post is a prime example of the problem. I’ve submitted my ideas for recovery many times and tax cuts aren’t part of them. Of course tax hikes aren’t either. But it doesn’t matter since you never listen but would rather build your own straw man and then take shots at it. I’ve never ignored your evidence but when I point out the fallacy, you go all postal. It’s hard to take you seriously when you respond irrationally.

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, your ideas are “cut regulations,” right?

Well. Obama is cutting regulations.

But you still haven’t explained exactly how cutting regulations will equal more jobs. All you’ve explained is that cutting regulations will mean more $ for businesses—and yet businesses already have record amounts of $, but aren’t hiring.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

I’ve explained that more times than I care to remember. As I said, you don’t listen.

Let me ask you this, you seem to be in favor of Obama Jobs Bill. What exactly in his bill will create jobs?

Qingu's avatar

Infrastructure spending. By, you know, directly hiring people to fix buildings and roads.

Payroll tax extension might not have much benefit, but not extending it might jolt the economy—it would be a tax hike on mostly poor people, the ones who spend most of that money back in the economy. So it’s worth the risk.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

OK fair enough. I won’t debate the infrastructure spending as I have in the past but I can’t see how we can create jobs in the near term unless the jobs are ‘Shovel Ready’. Obama has already said that didn’t work out so well and all the projects he thought were ‘Shovel Ready have already been addressed. If the projects are not already on the drawing board by the time they go through design, environmental impacts etc.etc. they won’t create jobs in the near term. Basically, I don’t see his cry for jobs now, being addressed by this.

I could question your numbers regarding spending since Feroli estimates the top 20 percent of wage earners account for 40 percent of spending. Dean Maki, chief U.S. economist at Barclays Capital Inc. in New York, puts their contribution at closer to 50 percent. but I won’t. If we want to extend the payroll tax hike, OK, it just won’t create any jobs.

Anything else?

Qingu's avatar

I agree that it’s hugely important to make sure infrastructure projects are shovel ready. I have not looked at whether the projects in the jobs bill are or not. I hope they are, or processes are in place to make them.

On “top 20% of wage earners accounting for 40–50% of spending”: the same article says the top 20% own about 80% of equity and half of housing wealth (I’ve cited elsewhere that the top 10% owns more than 80% of financial wealth too). So… jeez, who cares? They’re spending half of their income, maybe. Poor people spend most of their income. Which is the whole point. Giving poor people extra money means it is more likely to be spent than giving it to rich people.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

I’m not sure where the ‘Giving it to rich people’ came from. Did you mean taking it from rich people? Either Way we’re off point.

I still looking for job creation since this is the pivotal proposal that Obama feels will solve our problem NOW.

Qingu's avatar

Giving as in cutting taxes. I realize that technically it’s “taking less,” but, you know.

And you know my position: businesses aren’t hiring fundamentally because there is no demand for their products. There is no demand for their products because consumers have a lot of debt they’re paying off and/or are unemployed and have no money to spend. It’s a vicious cycle, and there will be no easy fix to it; furthermore financial crises usually take years to recover fully from and this is the second worst on record. But hiring people to fix infrastructure will at least help.

silverfly's avatar

Of course not! He just wants the bills to pass without argument. :)

This whole thing is such a sham. They’re all the same… status quo… just different methods of screwing us over to get re-elected.

Qingu's avatar

@silverfly well, at least you’ve found a way for yourself to feel superior to them both. All without having to evaluate the actual policies in question, or the messy and frustrating ways of getting them enacted, too.

silverfly's avatar

@Qingu Oh, I don’t feel superior… I just feel angry that these lying politicians bicker of who has the bigger god complex. It’s insane… Look at the state that we’re in! We need to start asking some serious questions. Why are we still at war with so many countries? Why is our currency collapsing? Obama, Bush, Reid, whoever… They don’t have the answers. They don’t care about you. They’re in it for themselves and they’re making the laws.

Every country in history that has done what we’re doing (inflated their currency and created an empire) has failed. It doesn’t last… it doesn’t matter how much bickering we’re doing or how many jobs the government creates or how much to tax. We need to address the Federal Reserve and our banking system.

It’s all about money… it always is.

Qingu's avatar

So why don’t you try to inject some nuance in your thought process and distinguish between the politicians who actually have good ideas and are trying to do something, the politicians who have bad ideas and are trying to do nothing, and the politicians who are simply corrupt. Instead of talking about “the politicians” as if they were a monolithic entity.

You’re also dead wrong about your inflation fears. We did that to help end the Great Depression, for example. Increasing the money supply in a liquidity trap doesn’t even cause excess inflation. Case in point: the last four years.

saint's avatar

@Qingu Who among them is not simply corrupt. Just curious.

Jaxk's avatar

@Qingu

OK, we may be on the same page here. The payroll tax cuts are in place and the infrastructure was tried with the first stimulus. With the first stimulus winding down doing it again will at best retain the status quo. Let me know if you disagree.

Nothing in this package that I see will create any improvement in the economy. And if I read your response correctly you don’t see it either. At best we continue to drag along. So why not try something else.

You have continually quoted the excess corporate profits sitting overseas. We could bring back $trillion (I believe Geithner estimated it at $2 Trillion) by simply letting them bring it back to the US without taxing it again. I can’t believe even you would think an injection of $1—$2 trillion into our economy wouldn’t help. And it doesn’t cost us a dime to do it.

silverfly's avatar

@Qingu Well I know that Ron Paul is honest. Agree or disagree with his views, at least he’s honest and consistent…

As far as inflation, I’m not wrong. Our prices have been rising for 40 years. We continue to measure inflation against a dynamic measuring stick so it’s said to be at 2 percent, 4 percent, whatever. It’s a lot higher, it’s getting worse, wages aren’t rising, prices will go up. Just wait until your “last four years” kicks in. History is on my side on this argument. No country has ever succeeded in doing this. We last this long because we issue the reserve currency and foreign countries continue to take our money.

Qingu's avatar

@saint, I don’t think Obama is corrupt. I have not seen any evidence that Democratic “villains” like Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank are corrupt. There are certainly Democrats who are corrupt; Evan Bayh, the Democrat who recently retired, took a very lucrative job at a law firm specializing in public policy loopholes. A lot of the Democrats who most vehemently opposed the health care reform law and were chiefly responsible for watering it down were taking massive donations from insurance companies. I do think that more Republicans are corrupt than Democrats….and what’s more, I think Republican ideology actually doesn’t see what I’m calling “corrupt” as actually corrupt, because Republicans genuinely believe that if a corporation is successful and they use that success ($$$) to influence public policy, that’s just the free hand of the all-knowing market.

Qingu's avatar

@Jaxk, re: status quo, sort of. I look at the rate of change. When the stimulus was in high gear, the economy was accelerating. When the stimulus winded down, that acceleration faded. The jobs plan could act as “stepping on the gas a second time”—I doubt it will be enough to get us anywhere close to like 5% unemployment, but I think it will help for all the same reasons the stimulus did.

Part of the problem here is that you don’t believe the stimulus helped (in contrast to virtually every prominent economist). I’ve been over the evidence with you and I don’t really know what else to say.

I don’t remember saying much of anything about corporate profits sitting overseas, actually. I don’t see how or why a tax holiday would encourage corps to bring that money back here; besides they are sitting on the money they already have here anyway. Again: you keep on saying that if only businesses had more cash, they’d hire more people. But businesses are already swimming in cash and are not hiring at a rate above population growth. I’ve asked you again and again, for months now: please explain why you think getting businesses more cash will mean more jobs.

Qingu's avatar

@silverfly, Ron Paul is fairly honest; he’s also a moron, and a little insane as far as I can tell.

You are absolutely wrong: once again, during the Great Depression, the Fed increased the money supply. Loose money helped end the depression. It’s certainly not advisable to print money. Under most circumstances it creates inflation, which is almost always bad. What about when we’re in a liquidity trap characterized by very low inflation or deflation? Well, you tell me—what do you think is worse?

And no, inflation is not “a lot higher” today. During the recession’s peak we had a brief period of deflation. What is your data for this? Are you even paying attention to the actual numbers or are you just making doomsday inflation predictions because that’s what Lord Paul’s religion says?

Do you even know why you oppose inflation? Can you explain why you think inflation is worse than deflation in a liquidity trap?

silverfly's avatar

First, I want to stress the obvious: that I don’t know everything and I don’t have all the solutions. The economy is such a complex system and I have no degree in economics so I’m very much open to learning. Please be polite and approach these topics from an educational standpoint if I’m an indeed all wrong. Doing so would greatly help educate not just me but many other people.

@Qingu Ron Paul is a moron? He’s insane? It’s sad that many of you have the same argument against him – nothing of substance. He’s one of few who doesn’t blow smoke up your ass and you have to give him some credit for being 100% consistent, never swaying from principle, despite what those principles are. You can’t say that for many politicians.

You also mentioned Obama not being corrupt and I actually agree with you here. I highly disagree with many of the things he’s done, but I don’t believe he does them because he’s evil. I do think he’s trying his best with the tools he’s been given but they’re the tools we’ve been using for a very long time and they don’t work anymore.

As far as inflation goes – I actually don’t have specific numbers and I don’t do any data crunching myself but I do know that we’re measuring a fluctuating economy with a fluctuating measuring stick. If government doesn’t like the numbers, they change the stick. If the CPI isn’t yielding favorable results, they change how it’s measured.

I oppose inflation because it’s a hidden tax on the people. Prices should actually go down as technology advances and it becomes easier to produce. Several decades ago, many people actually paid cash for their homes, women didn’t have to work if they didn’t want to, and they could do this on one man’s salary. Many people can’t do that anymore and as I’m sure there are many factors to this problem, I attribute much of it to inflation which is why I oppose it. Throughout the world’s history, it has never worked because governments abuse it to fuel their empire. It’s the reason for the collapse of so many countries like Russia, Germany, Greece, Rome, Argentina, etc.

So inflation is actually worse because ultimately the currency is destroyed. What happens when the dollar has no value? The outcome is much worse than a deflation. Keep an eye on these central banks as they continue to try to avoid deflation by “any means necessary” and watch the dollar lose even more value.

man, these posts are long!

mattbrowne's avatar

Imagine two firefighters debating forever before acting while there are children in the burning house.

The inequality in the US is getting more extreme every day. There are thousands of children of jobless parents. And to them it feels like their houses are on fire. They are desperate.

In serious economic times debates cannot go on forever. There is something called shared responsibility.

silverfly's avatar

@mattbrowne I agree, but both sides think the other will add gasoline to the fire.

Qingu's avatar

@silverfly, here is why I don’t care for Ron Paul in a nutshell.

• He’s an originalist who seems to treat the original Constitution the way Christians treat the Bible… the original Constitution which of course outlawed women from voting and said that slaves were 3/5 of human beings. I have no respect for this kind of ideology.

• His ideas on the gold standard are simply childish, ignorant of history and, if enacted, would ruin the world economy. Before fiat money the American economy was not this shining example of free market perfection; there were even more bubbles and busts than there are today. Add to that that holding up a random shiny metal we dig out of the ground as the basis of our currency is arbitrary and not workable in any modern context.

• He’s a social conservative. He is opposed to abortion. He has a history of somewhat appalling racism. His views on civil rights are troubling.

• He has a religious-like faith in the Invisible Hand of the Free Market, which is why he opposes almost all government regulation. He thinks that the problems on Wall Street which led to this financial crisis would not have happened if only the market were free of regulations (absolute bullshit as any history of the US shows; the laissez-faire economy of the 1800’s was characterized by rampant collusion and corruption; Adam Smith himself says we should regulate the credit market).

About the only thing I agree with Paul about are his views on war, and even then I find many of his views childish.

_________________

So, about inflation. I think it shows a lot of maturity to admit at the outset that you don’t know that much about economics and you’re open to learning. I’m just going to post some scattered thoughts on what you’ve written.

• First of all, inflation is not just a rise in prices. You brought up the fall of buying power of American households since the “golden days” of stay-at-home-mother 50’s… first of all, I’m not sure this is even an accurate characterization of the times-gone-by since there were many poor people in the 50’s who didn’t have white picket fence houses. Secondly, this ignores the large increase in living standards since then and technological advances (consider the purchasing power of computers and electronics). But most importantly, you’re ignoring the elephant in the room: for a small subgroup of people—the richest—purchasing power has dramatically increased since the 50’s. Income inequality was much smaller during the 50’s.

• You brought up CPI; the reason the Fed uses core inflation is because commodity prices like oil and food swing wildly. Look at gas prices—remember how they went up in the summer? Remember how gas prices almost always goes up in the summer? Remember when people were screaming about CPI inflation? ANd now gas prices are down and CPi has become closer to core inflation. For long term, that’s why we use core inflation. It’s not arbitrary and it’s not changing the measuring stick.

• You are making very wild pronouncements for someone who hasn’t studied much about economics: “Throughout the world’s history (inflation) has never worked.” Do you have any examples of situations with no inflation? Here’s a thought: the Great Depression was characterized by negative inflation. Japan’s terrible recession of the 90’s, the “Lost Decade,” was characterized by negative inflation. The height of our financial crisis, the second-worst recession on record, was characterized by negative and very very low inflation. What happens when inflation is low? It means that future buying power is presumed to be better than current buying power…. so people and businesses stop buying and selling, and the economy grinds to a halt (or grinds further to a halt).

Again: nobody is advocating runaway inflation. Nobody wants inflation higher than 5%. But you have to realize that there are tradeoffs to inflation, and in certain circumstances, inflation can be a good thing. You are treating inflation as the arch-demon of economic policy, as the greatest of all possible evils. But when we are in a deflationary scenario, when the economy has grinded to a halt, when credit is very hard to get—you know, like today (this is what the term “liquidity trap” means)—inflation can spur consumer and business spending. That, in turn, can spur the economy. And that’s clearly the lesser of two evils. If you want to argue that low to moderate inflation is actually worse than the Great Depression, the Lost Decade, and the Great Recession, I think you need to have your head examined.

Finally, no, inflation is not the reason for the collapse of Russia, Germany, Greece, Rome, and Argentina. Take Germany: Hyperinflation in Germany only lasted between 1921 and 1923. Where’s this collapse? Look at Greece: what does inflation have to do with them? Greece can’t even print their own money; they’re on the euro. I think your inaccuracy comes from this almost emotional opposition to inflation. Since inflation is this great arch-demon for you, surely every economic ruin must somehow be attribuble to the root cause of inflation. Except they’re not.

silverfly's avatar

@Qingu: holy moly, these are getting long. I’ll have to read when I have more time. Thanks for the post though. At some point, an in person discussion needs to be scheduled. :)

Qingu's avatar

Yeah I can’t believe I wrote all that to begin with. :)

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