Social Question

AnonymousWoman's avatar

Do you believe it's possible to be against same sex marriage, but at the same time still respect same sex couples?

Asked by AnonymousWoman (6533points) August 4th, 2012

The recent controversy surrounding Chick-fil-A inspired this, of course.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

44 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

Just for the record, the issue about chick something is not primarily because the ceo admitted he hates gay people, but because the corporation donates large amounts of money to hate groups that are actively lobbying to restrict and prevent equal rights for homosexuals.

josie's avatar

Sure. They are two separate issues. One is institutional/political/linguistic and the other is personal

jca's avatar

I say yes.

SavoirFaire's avatar

It depends on what it is about same-sex marriage that you are against. If you are against the “marriage” part because you’re against all marriage (or all legal recognition of marriage), then you could still respect same-sex couples the same way you respect other couples. If your issue is with the “same-sex” part, however, then you cannot really respect same-sex couples. You can act like you do, and might even fool yourself, but you cannot truly respect a person if you cannot respect something that is an intrinsic part of who they are.

Coloma's avatar

Mmmm…serious shades of gray IMO.
If you truly respect same sex couples then it is rather hypocritical to also not respect their right to be able to formalize/legalize/legitimize their union in the eyes of the state.
Kinda like saying you support gay people but wouldn’t want someone in YOUR family to be gay. It smacks of talking out of both sides of your mouth if you ask me, which you did. lol ;-)

gondwanalon's avatar

I am totally all for gay couple unions. More power to them. But let same-sex couples call their relationships something other than “marriage”. I sure that someone could come up with a really cool name for a committed gay couple. I would be among the first to celebrate that.

Facade's avatar

@gondwanalon Sounds like separate but equal
And my answer is no.

flutherother's avatar

What I don’t understand about gays is why they want so much to be straight. Getting married for heaven’s sake isn’t that what straight people do? Why can’t they rejoice in being different? I would respect them more if they did.

ragingloli's avatar

@flutherother
It is about the legal rights that come with marriage. Visiting rights in hospital, deciding on the treatment if the spouse is in a coma for example, inheritance, adoption, having the right not to be forced to incriminate your spouse in court, etc.

flutherother's avatar

@ragingloli In the UK all the above are recognised in a civil partnership.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@flutherother Marriage is not a “straight” thing. Being straight is a straight thing.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@flutherother But not so in the US. Regardless, why is wanting to get married an indicator of wanting to be straight? Marriage has existed since the dawn of time. It predates all churches and extant civilizations, and it has not always been a male/female only union. I think @Facade is spot on when she compares alternatives to “separate but equal.” Here is a quick test for you.

flutherother's avatar

You surely don’t have to be married to be accepted as a member of society. Not all straight people are married, many of them are single. They are still part of society and shouldn’t feel discriminated against. As far as I’m aware up to now marriage always has been a male/female union and that is how marriage is defined.

ragingloli's avatar

Marriage has been traditionally an owner-property relationship between husband and wives, limited to members of the same race and religion.
The tradition argument is complete nonsense.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@flutherother Marriage has not always been defined as a male/female union. John Bosworth has a book detailing the many, many same-sex unions the Church allowed for in medieval times. Additionally, marriage has more traditionally been something of a male/female/female/female/female/female thing, occasionally in some cultures allowing for female/male/male/male. It has also been about property and socioeconomic status, not love.

BTW, single people are actually discriminated against institutionally, and face a good deal of pressure to just fucking marry already. That’s why they’re called marriage benefits.

DigitalBlue's avatar

No, I do not believe it is possible. I think that if you have the sense to reason with yourself that there isn’t anything inherently wrong with being gay (that is, assuming, you probably don’t respect things that you think are outright “wrong), then you should probably ask yourself why you really feel that you can’t support gay marriage. Is it because your pastor, your family, friends, the media or society tell you that it isn’t okay? Is it because you’re just more comfortable seeing a female bride and a male groom, and change can be uncomfortable? Ask yourself just how respectful of someone you really can be, while still holding onto the idea that you are simply better than them. Or more normal. Or less sinful. Or whatever word is best suiting.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@flutherother No one has said anything about being accepted by society except for you, so I’m not sure what that statement is supposed to be about. Regardless, marriage has been many things over the years. See @Aethelflaed for just a few of its variations.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I don’t think so. Are gays and lesbians people? Then why don’t they deserve the same exact rights as you and I and everyone else?

augustlan's avatar

Regardless of where you stand on same-sex marriage, it’s possible to act with respect (be kind, etc.) toward same-sex couples. But can you truly respect them if you’re against same-sex marriage? No. It is intrinsically disrespectful to deny them the same rights you have.

blueiiznh's avatar

ABSOLUTELY!

Mariah's avatar

I honestly don’t think you can. If you acknowledge that other people are equal to you, then you would have no problem granting them equal rights.

tom_g's avatar

Is it possible to be against “mixed-race” marriages but at the same time still respect “mixed-race” couples? Hmmmm…that’s a tough one. Oh wait. What was the question again?

Kayak8's avatar

It is not as simple as “marriage.” Lambda Legal has discovered there are more than 1400 rights conferred to those who are able to get married that are NOT conferred to those who cannot. This website is but one reference. According to the link:

Here are some of the legal rights that married couples have and gays and lesbians are denied:

Joint parental rights of children
Joint adoption
Status as “next-of-kin” for hospital visits and medical decisions
Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
Crime victims recovery benefits
Domestic violence protection orders
Judicial protections and immunity
Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
Public safety officers death benefits
Spousal veterans benefits
Social Security
Medicare
Joint filing of tax returns
Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
Child support
Joint Insurance Plans
Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
Estate and gift tax benefits
Welfare and public assistance
Joint housing for elderly
Credit protection
Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
—————-
As a lesbian, I could give a flying fig what the official legal relationship is called. It is the equal rights that concern us! Here is a link to but one story of a woman who was to be billed $350,000 in estate taxes after her partner died (a situation that would NOT have occurred had their Canadian marriage been recognized). They were together for 41 years.

It is not at all clear to me how one could support gay couples but be against their ability to have equal rights . . .

Kardamom's avatar

If you look at someone (gay couples) and think that what they are doing (attempting to marry) or simply being (gay) is sinful or shameful or down right wrong, it’s pretty much impossible to give respect to those people.

It’s easy to give a pursed lip smile and say that you respect them, but if you deny them (gay people) the rights of people then you’re denying them respect.

Jenniehowell's avatar

No it is not possible – if someone respects me and my girlfriend then they respect that I as an adult of sound mind and she as an adult of sound mind have the right to make our own decisions with regard to who we do and don’t want to marry – additionally, if someone respects me then they support me having the same exact rights and privileges as everyone else.

@SavoirFaire said it exactly perfectly – if you don’t support any form of marriage because you are against marriage all together then I would say you respect me because in that case you do want me/every other American to have the same equal rights and privileges. If you support some citizens having a certain set of rights and other citizens having a different set for any reason at all then you don’t respect that group which you are trying to limit and/or restrict.

Gay marriage is not something that is about what name we call it, it is not about us wanting to be accepted by everyone in some way or recognized by everyone in some positive fashion. It is purely and completely about equal rights. You can call it bamballstalisticism if you want to but in the end if bamballstalisticism doesn’t afford a person the same exact rights and privileges as those who are under the umbrella of legal marriage then it is nothing but a fictional name. Naming something different and not giving them the same equal rights is an even bigger insult and form of disrespect because it insinuates that the person receiving said new named but less rights thing is too stupid to realize it isn’t the same equal thing with marriage. It’s like thinking the person is such an idiot that they’d fall for a Jedi Mind trick. It’s as if you are trying to give someone 5 dimes in exchange for a dollar by tricking them into believing that since 5 is more than one they are somehow benefiting. What an asinine idea! There are over 1300 benefits afforded to those who are married that those who are single or under a domestic partnership do not have & in addition to those 1300 benefits there are many more things that those same single people or domestic partnered people pay for through the tax system that are given literally only to those who are married.

It is true that those benefits and payments apply to both heterosexual and homosexual single people or domestic partnered people, however it is not surprising that the average heterosexual single person isn’t hurt or offended or feeling disrespected or slighted because of those things because all heterosexual people have a choice between getting married or not. It is not to say that every gay person would run out and get married if it were legal to do so, but simply that they would have the free choice to do so if they want to. Just the same as all people don’t vote but they do have the right to choose whether or not they want to and if a citizen was prevented from voting based on gender, sexual orientation etc. the issue wouldn’t be about whether or not they were actually going to vote but rather whether they have the right to make that choice and act upon it in the first place.

With regard to the average person who is against gay marriage – the general reason for that view is a religious one and in our country that religious choice is generally related to Christianity. Christianity teaches that there is one omniscient/omnipotent God who knows all and has a plan that the average human isn’t privy to – hence the phrase “some of God’s greatest gifts are unanswered prayers”. The basic point is that we don’t always know what God has planned for one person or another etc. That said, it is a lack of faith that causes one to go against the teaching that their God is omniscient/omnipotent – contrary to the average Christian behavior one cannot have it both ways…. either God knows what he’s doing and has an omniscient/omnipotent plan for the people of this world or He doesn’t have it all under control and therefore we as individuals need to run around controlling everyone else because if we don’t the the Devil may win and have more of a population in the end than Heaven. The concept is laughable – the truth needs no defense so if God is omniscient then let him do his thing and remove your ego from the process because it is nothing but ego which causes one person to think they have the better answer over another and therefore are justified in removing that person’s rights, equality and privileges for their own good, the good of society etc. People who claim there is one omniscient/omnipotent God are just pretending they believe that lest they actually “let go and let God” handle it all as if all things are in Divine order. Jesus recommends to his followers that they leave to Caesar what is Caesar’s and focus on their own processes instead. Similarly he recommends that “he who is without sin cast the first stone” and yet with their vote the average Christian casts their punishment upon who they believe to be a sinner. Despite the fact that in the same exact books of the bible where it speaks against homosexuality it also speaks against a slew of other things that the majority of Christians do every day whether it be sleeping in the same bed with women who are on their period, eating shrimp and other sea creatures that are off limits, getting tattoos, cutting their hair in inappropriate manners etc etc.

Not to mention that the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence etc. gives us a few rights. Two of which are the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the separation of church and state. Liberty of course means to be free of oppressive restrictions within society so of course no one can oppress another of freedoms without breaking the legal documents our founders set for us to follow. This also means, based on separation of church and state, that any American who votes based on their religion technically is going against the Constitution etc. simply by default and is therefore removing the right of others to live a life that guarantees separation between church and state.

Additionally, not every religion is against gay marriage – there are many pagan sects for instance (among others) who are completely supportive of such marriages – by restricting those marriages from people of faith’s that support gay marriage you are restricting their freedom of religion… yet a third right afforded to all Americans.

There’s a kazillion ways to look at it, but lest someone be purely following their own religion without fault they are hypocritical for attempts to control others who break the religious teachings that are in verses literally right next to those the hypocrite themselves are breaking. And lest someone who lives as an American citizen is willing to allow all other citizens to have the rights afforded us in the documents drafted and passed by our founders with regard to freedom/liberty, pursuit of happiness, separation of church and state, religious freedom etc. they are not actually/nearly as patriotic and American as they claim their red blood to be.

psyonicpanda's avatar

NO! that is by definition Hypocrisy.

bolwerk's avatar

I’m against same-sex marriage as a state institution, but I’m equally against heterosexual marriage.

However, if you think marriage should be a right for heterosexual couplies but not homosexual couples then, no, you probably are not capable of respecting same-sex couples – at least not on an equal basis with heterosexual couples.

tom_g's avatar

@bolwerk: “I’m against same-sex marriage as a state institution, but I’m equally against heterosexual marriage.”

This bores me. Keep this ridiculous state institution nonsense for a later time – after you’ve fought for equal rights (same-sex marriage).

bolwerk's avatar

@tom_g: It presumably doesn’t bore the OP, since it answers her question in the only way one can non-hypocritically answer affirmatively. It wasn’t meant to entertain you.

And, um, I’ve been fighting for equal [sic] rights since before most heterosexuals thought it was cool, thank you very much.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@tom_g Oh please. Stop equating “gay marriage” with “gay rights”. Marriage is only one right, and many of us queers are pissed off that the right people and LGBT organizations are most focused on is one we’re not really interested in using or fighting for. But no, you should definitely be in charge of figuring out what our priorities should be.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Aethelflaed Is marriage one right, or is it over 1,000 rights packaged together? In any case, I think @tom_g‘s point is that he finds the whole “government shouldn’t be in the business of marriage” argument boring. There are people who legitimately believe it, but it is also a tool used by bigots who would rather see marriage disappear then let “the queers” get their hands on it.

So his counterargument might go something like this: regardless of what we think about marriage as a state institution, it would be disappointing to see it go away before gays got access to it because that would be a victory for the bigots. Let’s get all of the potential stakeholders in on it before we make any further decisions.

When seen this way, @tom_g is not saying anything about what the priorities of LGBT people should be qua LGBT people, nor is he equating gay rights with gay marriage. He is simply taking gay marriage as one example of a right denied to gays and suggesting that equality is more important than paring down the state.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t think you can be firmly against something, yet respect smaller factions of it. I believe you can not understand it (me) but still respect it and not oppose it.

tom_g's avatar

Well, as usual @SavoirFaire has been more successful at using words to communicate my thoughts than I am.

Think of it this way…
Let’s say there are government-funded museums, and the law states that only people of European descent are allowed to visit these museums.
Now, let’s say someone proposes a law that provides equality by allowing people of non-European descent to visit these museums.
You’re going to bore me if you fight against that law because of your opposition to government-funded museums. It doesn’t matter that you don’t like the fact that the government does this. You are fighting against equality right now in the name of some horseshit economic fantasy ideology.

@Aethelflaed – I’m not sure what your comment is supposed to even mean.

bolwerk's avatar

@tom_g: You’re really going after a straw-man. Who besides you said anything about fighting marriage? My opinion is that if there will be state-sanctioned marriage, then the state should treat homosexuals equally to heterosexuals. I said that from the beginning. I simply answered the OP’s question in the probably only intellectually honest way one can affirmatively answer it.

But your comparison is a bit stoopid. Marriage is at its core a generally silly and oppressive institution, and I’m glad to see people beginning to vote with their feet to avoid it We might be able to thank Rick Santorum and his ilk for that.. Museums actually perform a useful function in advancing learning and preserving culture.

Now I hope your emo fit of boredom has run its course.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@bolwerk I think the difference between the reaction to your comment and to my similar comment is that yours goes beyond saying “if there will be state-sanctioned marriage, then the state should treat homosexuals equally to heterosexuals” and also states opposition to state-sanctioned marriage. It is only that opposition to which @tom_g is responding, as far as I can tell.

I’m not convinced that marriage is at its core silly and oppressive. Marriage has been many things, and it started out differently in different places. That it sometimes started out badly or was later co-opted for bad reason doesn’t mean it must always and forever be compromised. It seems to me that the core of marriage, at least these days, is the making manifest of a certain level of commitment beyond what might be expected of a friend or lover. I wouldn’t call this silly or oppressive.

That’s not to say that there is anything wrong with not getting marriage or even that there are not other ways of making manifest such a level of commitment. It is merely to say that marriage does not appear to be necessarily or even centrally a bad thing.

Aethelflaed's avatar

@tom_g Well, god forbid we fucking bore you… Clearly, if you personally are entertained is indeed the issue at hand.

tom_g's avatar

@bolwerk: “You’re really going after a straw-man. Who besides you said anything about fighting marriage?”

I might be, and I apologize if I am. I interpreted this…

@bolwerk: “I’m against same-sex marriage as a state institution, but I’m equally against heterosexual marriage.”

…to mean that you oppose legislation that would legalize same-sex marriage.

Admittedly, I had a recent discussion with a Libertarian who had argued the “against all marriage” thing.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

bolwerk's avatar

@tom_g: I would prefer equal access to marriage for couples of all sexual orientations to heteronormative-only marriage. I said from the get-go in my initial post on this matter, “if you think marriage should be a right for [heterosexuals] but not [homosexuals] then, no, you probably are not capable of respecting same-sex couples – at least not on an equal basis with heterosexual couples.”

tom_g's avatar

@bolwerk – my apologies. I was indeed attributing to you positions you do not hold. I was wrong.

Paradox25's avatar

I think that some, or maybe many people would openly claim that they support same sex couples or gay rights. On the other hand many of these same people would probably have a cow if they learnt that one of their own family members were gay, especially if this was their own kid. Just going by a few situations I was aware of, and a few people that I knew/know.

Michael_Huntington's avatar

Some of the answers here frighten me.

Being against same sex marriage and “respecting” same sex couples is just as ignorant as “I’m not a racist, but I’m against interracial marriage”. As @augustlan , if you honestly respect same sex couples, then you would respect them the basic right to marry.

AnonymousWoman's avatar

^ I think you summed it up nicely with your example of how it’s like saying “I’m not a racist, but I’m against interracial marriage.”

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