Why should the cross be removed from ground zero?

What about tolerance for other people’s worldviews?

Personally, I think it should stay because it represents Christianity’s triumph over Islam.~

But seriously, I’m an atheist and I don’t give a rat’s ass. The damn thing was found there at the site; it should be allowed to stay.

However, if people wanted to put up the symbol of Islam or Judaism or another religion, that should also be fine too.

Personally, if it was someone that I lost, I wouldn’t be upset about having a cross, Star of David, or a crescent moon and star symbol there.

It is all about respect.

Why do people get all up in arms over stuff like this?

The Atheist proposed a large A to represent them. I think that would be appropriate to let all represent their faith. I would rather see all represented than none.

The same goes with nativity scenes. Who cares if they’re put up at Christmas time?

@Mama_Cakes suppose your symbol does not get erected, instead you see a crescent moon. It may seem like nothing but symbols are not neutral; they project a certain message: this is what we think.

Some people think differently, and can get offended that they are being omitted thus.

@fremen_warrior If it was that important to me, then I would do what I could to have “my symbol” up

Having a monument for one religion and not another (many innocent Atheists, Jews, and Muslims also died in the attacks) places value on that one religion as being better than those others. It also places value on the followers of that religion being better than the followers of other religions (Christians get a monument, not anybody else), in essence disrespecting people of other faiths.

I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, and I believe that it should be removed. By simply not removing the cross, the government is indirectly placing a stamp of approval on it. I don’t care if someone puts up crosses to honor 9/11, just not on the actual Ground 0 or any public places.

@PhiNotPi, what if other beliefs were allowed to be represented?

How do you make the jump from separation of church and state to “public places”?

Many Muslims died during the 9/11 attacks. Others were Atheists. I am sure many other religions were represented amongst the dead. Why not have a symbol that has no religious connotation? I agree with @PhiNotPi, why single out one religion? Have one, non-religious symbol to represent all those who died.

@choreplay How do you make the jump from separation of church and state to “public places”?

How do you not?

Separating church and state means keeping public areas philosophically – neutral, amongst other things.

I must be a different breed over here because it wouldn’t matter what symbol (of faith) was put up. If it means something to a group of individuals who lost their loved ones, so be it.

You Americans get all bent out of shape over religion.

I respect all faiths (atheists, too).

This is why I stay out of religions debates. :)

@fremen_warrior is that not repression of my freedom, to express my beliefs, to extend that to (non government) public places?

@Mama_Cakes It’s not just Americans. And it’s the ‘strangest’ thing really that Christians usually don’t understand why people get upset about symbols in public places – all the while making sure they dominate the areas they are already settled in. It’s the same thing in Poland – for some reason, despite the fact that it’s unconstitutional, we have a catholic cross hanging in our Parliament building…

I don’t get it.

I think that it’s ridiculous.

It would matter what was hanging in our Parliament building. For me, anyway.

It is a symbol or memorial for some who lost their lifes. I would be ok with any family that worked to get some symbol they wanted in memorial. Its not about religion but a symbol that is chosen to honor.
Look in a cemetary and you will see those variety of symbols.
Same goes for a fatal crash on a highway side marker.
I wish people would not view this as a church and state thing.
Do we remove the crosses or Star of David in the National Cemetery?

@choreplay no. Nobody is telling you you cannot express yourself freely, but in order to keep everyone content public spaces need to stay neutral. The state must make these types of consensuses in order to make sure everyone is treated equally.

@Mama_Cakes it would matter if you were in a minority that the president calls “unpatriotic” just because they have a different set of beliefs (think Bush jr. about Atheists)

They should just take a posterboard and type in the alphabet using the Wingdings font. Then every single religion would get covered—even a few that didn’t exist yet.

@fremen_warrior Bush is no longer in office, my friend.

Why can’t you all co-exist?

@choreplay The freedom to express beliefs in public is not harmed.

In my opinion, people should still be able to have religiously-based gatherings on government property. However, in instances where there are no people physically there, and there is just a cross on government property, then it should be removed.

In the first case, it is evident that the cross represents the sole beliefs of the people who are gathering. In the second case, it is implied that the government approves of the cross, which I don’t want. This doesn’t harm the ability to freely express oneself, and keeps the separation of church and state.

I meant to say that it wouldn’t matter..

@Mama_Cakes it was just an example. Atheists are often seen as second-class citizens in both islamic, and christian states alike. It is a matter of standing up for your rights not to be indoctrinated, it is about that exact freedom of self-expression that some have mentioned above.

In reference to the OP think about it this way, if there was a symbol representing men, stressing how many good men have died there, how would you feel? Wouldn’t you feel like the women were left out of the picture? Ignored?

@fremen_warrior, I agree consideration should be given to all present but unfortunately that quickly becomes a slippery slope to I shouldn’t express my beliefs.

@phiNotPi, This is such a tender situation as it is a type of grave site.

Well it was found on the site as a artifact. But since it is representative of only one set of beliefs, all involved should be allowed to represent their beliefs.

I land on the opinion that all beliefs involved should be allowed to be represented. IMHO

Then put up a symbol that denotes Atheism.

No, I would have a symbol put for the women who lost their lives.

How about one for the children?

Who cares?

I’m out. I disagree. Sorry.

Who cares?
Live and let live.
Seriously, this whole PC, bend over backwards to not offend anyone bullshit has got to stop!
Freedom means freedom, I don’t care what monuments are erected, there is space for everyone to express their choice of beliefs.

@Coloma Exactly.

Gotta go, thanks all. Wish there were easier answers to balance.

@Coloma yeah see where that leads you. In Poland for instance they are building a huge catholic temple, lavishly funded from OUR taxes. And the government has the audacity to say it needs to cut spending…

To be honest, I wouldn’t mind it so much if they put up symbols to represent all of the various religions (atheism included), as long as the result is neutral towards any one belief over others.

@fremen_warrior

Oh well, another drop in the bucket of world insanity, what else is now in fucked up government? lol

@PhiNotPi

So what logo will atheists carry, a mudskipper showing it’s transition from gills to lungs? lolol
For the record, I am not religious

I agree @PhiNotPi. All or nothing would appease anyone of any denomination.

Consider also that perhaps others (Atheists, Muslims, Jews etc.) do not want any symbols there – what then? The state should provide freedom from religious oppression and/or indoctrination in the form of an ideologically-neutral public space, especially when it is a place of national importance, such as this.

Having said that, is it not preferable to have a neutral landmark, with the names of the people that died there, and a few kind words, instead of turning it into a religious carnival of sorts?

Why can’t some religious people just “believe”, and let others be?

1. Kinda sad that it took a page or two so I could find a reputable news source that wasn’t a severely politically biased sqwak-box. Apparently that is true, but it’s an Atheist group and a few Jews.

2. It’s a memorial to the fallen, it’s not an opportunistic worship area. Everyone can visit that memorial and reflect on it with their own faith and beliefs completely free, and not stomp on anyone’s toes or be stomped on themselves. That’s the beauty of secularism, keeps the ground level. Putting a crucifix there is going to be offensive because of the religious bias. And it’d be inaccurate to assume it’s only Atheists that would be ticked: Jews will see that they are giving glory to a false prophet, and Muslims will think they are blaspheming and giving reverence to anyone but Allah, who is too perfect to be in a flawed mortal shell.

And as for me, I’d be offended because it’s an opportunistic moment to politicize suffering and give a fuck you to anyone who isn’t a fundie Christian. A cross is not needed whatsoever to symbolize remembrance. You can just as well leave the entire area completely empty and barren to remind you of the same thing, and the transience of life and how precious each moment is. And you don’t need to offend anyone to do it.

Not kotowing to Christians is NOT an act of offense.

3. Whether it’s a majority of their beleifs or not it’s irrelevant. The spirit of the American perspective of personal liberty is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. I don’t think enough christians realize that the crucifix is a particularly polarizing symbol. To them it may mean God, sacrifice, and ressurection but to others it can be seen as a symbol of corrpution, tyranny, violence, and idolatry.

And people of other faiths should be expected to endure that?

@fremen_warrior Do you really think that a Christian would have a problem with having a cross put up? Or someone of the Jewish faith having a symbol of the Star of David? C’mon,

Personally, I think that a cross; a symbol of the Star of David; or a crescent moon and star would be there for those who lost their loved ones.

Why do you care? It is not there for you.

@fremen_warrior Why can’t some atheists just let others ” be?”
I’d say you need to turn that statement around and ask yourself the same thing? Why can’t YOU allow others their freedoms without wanting to censor everything? I am not trying to bait you in an argument, just posing a realistic question.

Why should others need to change instead of yourself? Fair enough don’t you think?

@sinscriven I could not have said this better, though I have tried.

@Coloma Not really. It’s easy to insist, when a group of people who are already discriminated against finally start demanding equality in the public space, that they are just making waves for no reason, while everything is FINE really.

Well no it, is not fine.

You are twisting my words and my arguments. Smart, now I not only need to defend my point, I need to “prove” I am in fact tolerant of religious people.

Now, as for your question: This is not censorship, and you know it. You can worship whatever, and whoever you like in the privacy of your home, your church/temple etc. Why then do you insist I should be exposed to this in public places, places which are being paid for with tax money by a government that is supposed to promote equality and freedom from ideology?

So, in short, I don’t “need” to do squat with my previous post.

IMO religion (or lack thereof) is a private matter, and it is the job of the state to keep public places from becoming private propaganda sites for any such ideology. Everybody should be free to believe what they want to believe, and to ensure everyone is treated with the same respect and dignity, public spaces must remain neutral, again: especially national landmarks of significant importance, such as Ground Zero in NY.

“You can worship whatever, and whoever you like in the privacy of your home, your church/temple etc”

@fremen_warrior when I was in University, I went to a school where many Muslims lived (there were also many Italian Catholics and Korean immigrants, as well). Anyhow, when I was outside of my classroom, studying at one of the cubicles, around the corner from me, everyday, a Muslim student brought out a flattened cardboard box that she kept under the stairwell, and he prayed. Did I give a rat’s ass? No. It’s not my business what they do, and I have respect for religions.

@Mama_Cakes ah, the old “I’m not anti X, in fact some of my best friends are x” argument?

If you truly respect others’ worldviews you will understand why public space needs to be neutral.

@fremen_warrior sorry, man. I just don’t see what the problem is.

@Mama_Cakes then read @sinscriven ‘s post a few times and ponder… grasshopper. I am going to bed it’s 3 AM over here ;-) G’nite all…

Man that sucks. Why can’t they just leave it up there? If a lot of Muslims died too, then let them put their sign up as well. What the hell’s the problem? :(

@fremen_warrior Well, this is where I jump ship. I don’t feel public spaces need to remain neutral. I think that healthy, mature and well developed people are capable of accepting differences and do not try to control others expressions. I have not twisted anything, I simply posed a valid question, why is it always the state, the other person, that needs to change instead of changing ones own beliefs?

I would no more complain about my neighbors putting up a nativity scene in their yard at Xmas than they would if I chose to put up a Hindu statue.
“Public” space is public, therefore there is room for all sorts of expression.
Control freakery is control freakery, nothing more, nothing less.

@fremen_warrior I’m curious as to what you’d do in Toronto?

People be praticin’ there faith everywhere. ;)

I think it has every right to be there, just as I think Muslims have the right to build the mosque they wanted to make there… I think it was called the “Ground Zero Mosque”?

It is called Park51 and is a couple of blocks away from Ground Zero and cannot be seen from the site.

*their faith

@Bellatrix When you say it cannot be seen from the site, do you think of that as a good thing or a bad thing? Was it made there because of the fact that it couldn’t be seen from the site of the incident?

I don’t see any problem with a Mosque being built within sight of ground zero. A few Muslims were responsible for 9/11 not all Muslims. I don’t know why that actual site was chosen but if you do a little reading (I just did) there was a protest movement about whether the building should be allowed at all, even two blocks away and out of sight.

I wouldn’t have a problem with a Christian church or an Atheist building or a Buddhist temple being close by either. I feel we should be inclusive not exclusive and if we can’t include all, let’s go with something neutral.

Since the cross came from the site itself I say no, its like saying anything else that would have been pulled from the site not to be shown. If atheists pulled out a giant A out of the site go for putting it up. But this cross was an actual piece of the World Trade Center so why not have it there.

@Bellatrix Well said :)

From a quick glance at the article and following a link or two it sounds like the thing is (or will be) in a museum as an exhibit – to me that pretty well ends the argument. Depending on the exhibit I might find that choice a bit crass and myopic but being that it’s in the “Finding Meaning at Ground Zero” section it’s hard to argue it as inappropriate.

In relation to Park 51, there’s a giant difference between it and the Ground Zero Monument:

It’s private property.

Really, nice and simple. Private property you’re allowed to do as you wish, as long as your not endangering others. They had every right and my blessing to do it, and it went up and oh, look, everything is fine, despite the ridiculous protests

But the Monument is not private. It is public, on public land, paid for by tax dollars. And a monument to lives lost of Christian, and Muslim, and Jew, and atheist, and probably wiccan, etc etc etc lives. And a symbol to all of us across the nation (and in some cases, abroad), who may be of any number of different creeds.

You cannot include a symbol for every religion. There are thousands. And there were probably at least a dozen different religions just among the people who died that day. And by including this as a cross, not just a bit of deterius, is showing favoritism to Christianity. You can talk all you want about “well, atheists can just find an A!” but the point is, we don’t want our philosophy forced on you. We want a clean slate. Where people can believe what they want, and don’t have other religions constantly thrown in their face.

This monument is made with tax dollars. It is a public place, where anyone can come and reflect on the terrible acts of those days. Doesn’t matter what their religion is. Or philosophy. Or political leanings. Or class. It’s open for all. To take that, and then say “oh, but here’s an exhibit specifically about a certain religion” is just plain crass. The way to be truly equal is to leave it blank, and allow anyone to worship, or not, as they wish.

We don’t have a wrought iron donkey there, or an elephant. We don’t have a giant dollar sign on the monument to represent the upper class. We don’t need a sign for any religion.

I’m an atheist and I would not be trying to put an A for atheist up, but it is tiresome to see mega crosses everywhere. Someone should put up a Muslim symbol and a Star of David in the same location or take down the cross. It’s New York City. Probably 25%+ of the victims were Jewish. Just guessing. And, of course Muslims must have died too, probably a few Buddhists, not sure of the actual stats. I have to wonder are atheists really saying they are offended as atheists? Or, standing up for all those who aren’t Christian?

@Mama_Cakes It is different here. Canada tends to be more about including all religions in public areas and letting them all be represented, and America tends to be about wanting to be void of religion so we don’t have to worry about leaving someone out. They both have the same goal of religious freedom. And, even in America most will argue that someone can have their symbols up as long as everyone can. And, I don’t think you have Evangelical Christians like we do. It is so in your face here how they handle their religion, that everyone gets into each others faces. I think of Canada as being mostly a Catholic country, I don’t know if that is true.

And I have to ask, for those that are angry at some atheists (and as was pointed out, some jews) wanting to have it removed, what exactly will be lost by not having it displayed? What will be so terrible?

@JLeslie It is true and you’re right.

@Mama_Cakes Which part?

Perhaps the question should be why should the cross be there in the first place?

I don’t know this one in and out, perhaps I should research it more before I comment, but I believe that American Atheists, Inc. is suing to either have the cross removed or to have other religions represented at the Ground Zero memorial.

While it is impossible to absolutely determine how many victims of the 911 attacks were not Christians, I think it is safe to say that at least several hundred were not. There were Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, probably Shintoists, who knows, and I suspect there were probably a significant number of atheists and agnostics among the dead. The victims of the attack originated from 115 different countries, not all of them likely to have been Christians.

Contrary to what Michael Grimm, and people like him think, the cross is not a universal, generic “symbol of hope and freedom.” It is a very specific symbol of a very specific religion: the cross is a symbol signifying Jesus’ crucifixion on the cross, something absolutely specific to Christianity.

And then, of course, there are the constitutional issues.

@JLeslie

” It is different here. Canada tends to be more about including all religions in public areas and letting them all be represented, and America tends to be about wanting to be void of religion so we don’t have to worry about leaving someone out. They both have the same goal of religious freedom. And, even in America most will argue that someone can have their symbols up as long as everyone can. And, I don’t think you have Evangelical Christians like we do. It is so in your face here how they handle their religion, that everyone gets into each others faces. I think of Canada as being mostly a Catholic country, I don’t know if that is true.”

@Mama_Cakes Oh, the whole thing. LOL.

@lillycoyote Who is this Michael Grimm? That is ridiculous. The cross is a generic symbol of freedom. Bullshit. Why are Christians always trying to tell nonChristians something symbolic of Christianity isn’t religious. I don’t get it. How many times has a Christian told me I should get a Christmas tree, because it isn’t religious. I understand the tree came from secular beginnings, but why do they feel the need to convince me of it. The cross? Now, that is inarguably Christian. Totally clueless to how a cross makes nonChristians feel. That is just total BS talk with the goal of getting more crosses up around the country.

They probably do have pretty accurate stats of how many Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others died in the attack. I’m going to do some googling.

@all and, the more I think about it, one of the reasons that cross at ground zero is so inflamatory is because so many Christians in our country are hateful towards Muslims. There is a whole back story. I understand that Christians probably might see it the same as marking a grave by having a cross there. A respectful symbol. But, they ignore all the other messages that come with it. Either because they are in their own world, they do want to start a hoy war, or as I said, another excuse to put up a big cross. What if another religion had put up their symbol first? The Muslims God forbid. Imagine it.

@JLeslie Sorry! I meant to post the link to Grimm’s bill and now I seem to have lost it it. I will track it down for you. I agree absolutely. As I said, the cross is not some sort of generic, universal symbol of “hope and freedom.” That’s complete bullshit, as you say. The cross is a symbol of, and unique, and specific to Christianity. That’s it. Plain and simple. The cross is a symbol of Christianity; there’s no getting around that.

@Coloma, et al, this is the most universally accepted symbol for athiesm, which even appears on contemporary military tombstones.

@serenade I never knew that! Wow…wonders never cease. Personally, I think the design sucks. haha

@Coloma and @serenade

These are the symbols that the V.A. allows to be put on military tombstones. It’s pretty interesting, at least I think so. The military is much more open to the great variety of beliefs and non-beliefs than the general public, though on some things the military did go the way of “enlightenment” kicking and screaming.

@lillycoyote Yes, it is interesting, thanks for sharing!

I like it, it is so symbolic because of its being made of pieces of the destroyed buildings. And it is dramatically and artistically beautiful. Let it be. I am sick of PC, it’s not safe to open your mouth anymore without offending someone. Except white women, you can still ridicule, belittle, denigrate them with impunity.

I guess I’d have to see the location to be able to judge.

In general, though, I think Christians need to realize that by claiming threir religious presence in public space, they push others out. I feel Cristians often don’t realize that.

@rooeytoo it is NOT about political correctness. It is about resisting ideological oppression, and ensuring everyone is treated with the same amount of dignity and respect. Something I find Christians, in particular, have trouble grasping.

@fremen_warrior But it’s okay for you to insist your ideology is the correct one and to oppress freedom of expression for the christian sector of society ey? How do you figure?
Pot calling the kettle black, if you ask me.

I thought the cross was in the National September 11 Memorial and Museum. What is the discussion about, to remove it from a museum?

@Coloma Most people who want to remove religious symbols from public places are not trying to limit freedom of expression. Not from their perspective. The absence of religious symbols is seen as a way to not have to worry about having all symbols present to make sure people aren’t left out. It is to protect everyone’s religious rights, not the opposite. If there were no Christmas decorations up, I don’t think we would have to worry about Jews putting Chanukah decorations up. I have no problem with christmas decorations, I find them very festive and I like the season, but 150 foot crosses by the side of the highway, and replicas of the statue of liberty holding a cross instead of a torch at the intersection of a busy 6 lane road (both within 15 miles of my house, although I have seen that same statue liberty outside of Birmingham also along an Interstate) those feel in my face. And, with the crap we here from the loud parts of the Christian right it all adds up. For some reason I have no problem with large churches with crosses on the top, but, when it is prominent in the way I see it around here, it bothers me. All those are on private poperty, so they can build it as long as they get permission for the scale of the structure. Some cities have rules about those things. My town has rules about signage, that it must be modest, and lighting, there are specifications of course. That’s for all buildings.

@Coloma I am sorry you refuse to try and understand my point of view, and you keep trying to make me look like an intolerant b-tard. I am done talking to you.

@JLeslie I understand.
@fremen_warrior No offense intended, we are all entitled to our opinions and your opinion does not color my view of who you are. I am just asserting my opinion that I think this is a good example of the saying ” he was a grievance just looking for a cause.” I do not mean YOU, specifically, just in general.
People make mountains out of molehills and this is a molehill issue to me, not a mountain. Peace and happy brownies for all. :-)

Sounds like PC to me. A symbol must be removed so it does not offend someone else. I find the fact that this piece of art is being questioned, offensive. You seem to have a need to make everyone see it your way, I don’t. End of story. I like “under god” in the pledge of allegiance. I like the nativity scene at christmas. I like “in god we trust” on money. Why must history change to please a few dissenters. I do not associate it with religious maniacs, they are just like you, have the need to make everyone see it their way. That is what should be unPC. If you don’t like the look of these i beams that were part of a structure that was destroyed by madmen who also want everyone to see it their way, then don’t look at the bloody thing!

@rooeytoo Ah so now it’s art, and not a religious symbol? Let’s put Warhol’s urinal up there then if that’s what this is all about.

You like those things you mentioned because you are part of the goddamned (pun not intended) majority and are fine with the situation because it suits your needs all the while ignoring other people. That is a very egocentric worldview, pal.

And it’s not a “few dissenters” making waves for the sake of it, we are talking about here, but regular people, people who feel their rights to be free from discrimination and ideological indoctrination are being infringed upon.

So, no one defending the cross has answered my question: What do you lose by having it not be there?

Tradition, for years it has been traditional in the USA to erect a cross (which in this case is symbolic and a work of art) to be erected in certain locations. I see no reason to change that tradition because someone has come along and doesn’t like it. When I moved to Australia I did not try to turn it into the USA, I immersed myself in its traditions and beliefs. It seems to me MUCH of this PC that now prevails is intended to not offend newcomers. If you are a resident of the USA than honor its traditions, do not try to change them to suit yourselves or turn it into the country you left.

Wow, really? Slavery was our tradition for years, too. Or how about denying gays and lesbians equal rights? Just because we’ve done something a long time does not make it right. In fact, a court just ruled that tradtion is very much not a suitable justification for religious symbols in public buildings. And if it’s so ‘symbolic’, could you tell me what it symbolizes? Because if you’re honest, you see the problem.

And seriously, that’s so terrible? That your tradition has to change a little? The cross was standing in a nearby church for years. Why not just leave it there?

Also, I was born in America so, uh, try again there.

—@fremen_warrior Yes, I know you’re not my pal. I quoted that word in reflection of your use of it in a condescending manner” to @rooeytoo that is a very egocentric worldview, PAL

Who the hell am I?
I’m someone who thinks the PC wars are out of control and a lot of these “issues” are absurd.
It’s not like someone erected a pentegram or swastika for f—ks sake!

Tradition is the foundation of many things and having a cross is a far cry from slavery, etc. What a bizarre thing to say????

All or none. Where’s the pentagram or the FSM?

[non-mod says] please don’t turn this thread into a flame war. This thread is starting to contain personal attacks. I want this thread to remain an intelligent discussion about the topic.

^What he said.

I’m going to start buying up land and putting the Star of David along the highways. ~

It is just very very odd to me to feel the need to put huge religious symbols out there. Anywhere. I don’t understand why Christians are compelled to do it. Maybe other religions do it too, I have no idea, but it is the Christians around me who seem to care about it so much. Like if the aliens land tomorrow they will know people who worship the cross live on this earth. Crosses in a church, on a necklace, in one’s home, ok. But, big huge ones for all passers by. I don’t get it. I am willing to accept it matters to them, but from my viewpoint it is an attempt to spread Christianity. Not always of course, sometimes it is to mark a place Christians died, or another meaning, but mostly I think the big crosses everywhere are much like going door to door to hand out bibles. the 911 site is tricky, it isn’t the same as 150 foot crosses near an interstate highway, but it obviously is going to be inflammatory to some people. Saying it is just artwork is a misrepresentation. The cross is always the cross. Always a Christian symbol in America. It reads that way to everyone.

I am curious for someone to answer @BhacSsylan question, what do Christians lose by the cross not being there? Are the Christians who were lost in 911 disrespected if no religious symbol is at the site?

@rooeytoo “Tradition is the foundation of many things” Yes, exactly my point. It’s the foundation of lots of things, good and bad, so just saying “it’s tradition” is meaningless. We break tradition all the time, when we realize those traditions are bad. We can do it again.

This is a tradition and symbol that is hurting no one. It is only a vocal minority who take exception because their symbol is not there. All seems quite petty to me. The sort of thing that people do when they have too much time on their hands, they go around looking for dragons to slay or fires to stoke.

So you think all tradition is meaningless, that is an interesting stand to take. If it is meaningless that is all the more reason to ignore it.

It is said, if something bothers you, it is your problem. I think this falls into that catagory.

Just to be clear. I would not fight to get it taken down. I would let it slide like everything else similar to it in America. But, if you ask my opinion about it, how I feel, whether I think it makes sense, that is different than whether I would actually feel compelled to act on my feelings. I don’t think “under God” should have been added to the pledge in the 50’s, but I am not going to fight to change it, and I say the words when I recite the pledge. I don’t think In God We Trust should technically be on our money, but it doesn’t bother me.

“just saying “it’s tradition” is meaningless” is very much not the same as “all tradition is meaningless”. Try reading? Traditions have lots of reasons for them to exist, but we should look at those reasons. The fact that it is a tradition does not somehow make it immune to criticism. Female Genital Mutilation is a religious tradition in many a places in Africa. Does that mean we shouldn’t oppose it? It’s tradition!

And you say it’s hurting no one. How do you know this, exactly? And yet you admit there are those that take exception, small though they may be. Gays and lesbians are a tiny minority, too. Only about 3.5% of the population. Why care about them?

It is said, if something bothers you, it is your problem. I think this falls into that catagory. I personally hate to be called “guys” but people do it so I can rail against it or just mutter to myself about the bloody idiots who insist on calling females guys and get on with it. It hurts my feelings, it offends me, but no one cares. Now do you want to feel sorry for me? Do you want to change the world to suit me? Probably not, and that is the way I see this. If it offends you, look the other way and mutter.

Once again comparing an artistic symbol to genital mutilation, slavery, etc. is ridiculous.

@coloma It is not about political correctness as I’ve mentioned time and time again, it is about not being an intolerant ultra (religious) bigot and letting everyone get the same respect. It is people like you who are the problem, not the ones protesting.

@rooeytoo it is not art. It is a propaganda symbol for one of the biggest companies in the world – the Catholic Church Inc. Nobody expects you to drop your beliefs, or tear down your church, just to get out of people’s faces with your beliefs – just like everybody else does.

It always amuses me how christians, being the majority, claim they are being oppressed.

This particular cross appears to me to be art. I thought generally a catholic cross has a body on it and it is called a crucifix. It is in nobody’s face unless you go there and put your face in it. If you don’t like it, don’t look at it, if you have a problem with it, it is your problem. If you stop trying to make the rest of the world conform to your ideas and live and let live, you will probably be a lot happier and less stressed.

@rooeytoo to use Coloma’s example, if someone put a swastika up there, just minus the typical background, it would still be a swastika. Similarly, the “cross” is one of the most widely recognized symbols of christianity. To you it might symbolize good things, but to a lot of other people it means quite the opposite.

To me the cross is a symbol of, amongst other things, intolerance, persecution, and war. To use your logic here: if one of the people who died there was secretly a neo-nazi, would you agree to have a swastika up there then too?

If one of the beams turned out to look very much like a swastika would you still want to leave it there, because, well it’s not really a symbol, it’s more like art?

If these examples bother you @rooeytoo, then it’s your problem. Didn’t you just say that? Though if you really read @fremen_warrior‘s post you’ll see it’s pretty obvious he’s not saying the two belief systems are the same.

Anyway, you are the one who declared that ‘tradition’ is enough to perpetuate a pattern, regardless of the fact that there are those that take exception and are hurt by the act. I was simply pointing out other traditions we can recognize as hurtful and work to stop, despite being traditions. What makes the comparisons so ‘ridiculous’? Can you explain it?

@fremen_warrior

I am simply advocating freedom, period. If the Christians have put up a cross then others are FREE to put up their own tributes of choice. I don’t see what the problem really is. It is not a problem to me, it is obvious and easily rectified by allowing others to choose their own symbols of belief. So the Christians got there first, I say atheists should stop whining and go erect their own symbol. There is plenty of space for every denomination to express itself if they so choose.

@BhacSsylan – if you cannot understand the difference between a symbol placed on a piece of earth and female genital mutilation, slavery, nazism and your other outlandish comparisons, there is no hope for us to communicate.

@Coloma, do you really believe those of other religious denominations are going to be allowed to put their own religious symbols up at Ground Zero? An either all, or more logically, no religious symbol is right from my perspective but really, what sort of public response do you think there would have been if a crescent moon and star were placed on that site without the cross being there? Even with the cross there, what sort of public reaction do you think there would be? Look at the reaction to the idea of a mosque being built close to the site.

Also, a question for those of other faiths. What would it mean for the families of those people who died who are of the Muslim, Sikh, Jewish (and any other faith you may belong to), to have their loved one’s remains lying under the sign of the Christian cross? Are there rituals that make this particularly offensive to those of other faiths?

Wasn’t the steel cross found amid the rubble?

[mod says]: Hey, flames off folks. Please remember this is in the General section, try to keep on-topic and civil. Thanks.

@bkcunningham There are crosses always in rubble probably, unless completely obliterated. Tons and tons of crosses in any standing building. The steal/wood, whatever material, goes verticle and horizontal. There is nothing magical about a cross being found in the rubble. However, if Christians want to put up a cross, it is nice/interesting/meaningful that they do it utilizing the rubble.

No, @JLeslie. I mean this particular cross that is being discussed. It was found inside the rubble and put up by construction workers as a symbol of resurrection, new life from the ashes, life after death, all of these things that the cross symbolizes regardless of your faith or lack thereof. The entire discussion is moot now because this cross is in a museum.

I agree that for Christians it is symbolically a very nice thing. From the rubble as you say, a part of the building and honors and marks those who died there. But, to say it symbolizes life after death regardless of faith is completely incorrect. I don’t think that at all when I see a cross.

@Bellatrix I think it just comes down to the old ” you can’t please ALL of the people ALL of the time.” I see no reason why others cannot put up their own religious symbols, or, just look away. If one really believes in their faith anothers symbolism will have no effect. I just think the reaction is over the top, and I see no reason for such angst.

I don’t take offense at a Mosque being built either, as has been mentioned, the vast majority of the Muslim community are not terrorists just as the vast majority of Christians do not advocate murdering gays and abortion doctors.
I dunno, I just think people can better utilize their faith on things that really matter instead of warring between each other, as always.
THIS is the true irony if you ask me. Wasting all this energy on inconsequential matters rather than rallying together as humans to show tribute to those lost in the 9–11 tragedy.

Thanks @Coloma, I get what you think about this issue, I was asking you to reflect what the community response would be if a crescent moon and star was put there.

@Bellatrix Well, obviously, it would be similar to this discussion. haha not being sarcastic
Just too bad people can’t find a way to compromise instead of polarize. Oh well. :-)

I think the crescent and star would be about as popular in that location as a swastika would be at Auschwitz.

But if some muslims think it would be appropriate and meaningful then so be it, but I don’t think it would last very long. Too many strong feelings remain. However if you want a star of david there or some other symbol, I don’t think that would be a problem at all.

@rooeytoo That isn’t good enough though, that a Start of David would be accepted by the masses. If someone erected a cross at the Oklahoma city bombing no one would blink that a Christian bombed the place. This is why so many get annoyed. The Christians seem one sided on it. Not all Christians, but enough, and they are loud generally. That is why there is a reaction. I really view it as athiests and others reacting to the Christians. They seem clueless about others around them. The various statements on this thread that the cross represents rebirth to everyone and is a symbol for all demonstrates to me how so many Christians don’t understand other people’s thoughts or perspective. I have never heard anyone say that before. I have never thought of the cross as a symbol of rebirth, it is a symbol of Christianity and where Jesus died. When I see one in a cemetary or the side of a road, it marks the person is Christian or the person who died in that spot was Christian. When is a Jewish person ever going to put up a cross as a universal symbol? Never. Would they put it up to to represent Christians, sure.

I am not saying Christians are responsible for representing everyone, but they shouldn’t be surprised other religions don’t see the cross as covering everyone. In America it is a long history of Christians wanting the country to be Christian. They call America a Christian country. They really do want it to be, those Christians are not inclusive, not really, even if they are kind to people of other religions, so others are put on the defensive. Even stupid Q’s we have had here about Christians being pissed some stores say Happy Holiday’s instead of Merry Christmas. Really? They are pissed about that? It somehow infringes on Christmas? That stores want to cover everyone during the holiday season? Maybe non Christians sometimes over react, too suspicious, or too angry. All minorities are accused of that at times.

McVeigh was a single individual and a nut case at that. His actions were not guided or financed by a faction of a religion. He was not a member of a religious group acting together to kill innocent people including some of their own. I don’t think that comparison holds any water. Al queda engineered a concerted attack by a group of men looking for their 42 virgins and not caring what they did to obtain that end.

And if muslims want to put up a moon beside the christmas tree and nativity scene on the town square and you want to put up a star of david, I don’t think there would be much protest. That is an entirely different situation.

@rooeytoo I think part of it is as a Jewish person I don’t feel overly motivated to plaster my star everywhere, but Christians do. Again, not all Christians. I doubt atheists would feel the need to put A’s up everywhere, except to counterbalance “against” the Christians. I think it isn’t part of our thing you know? I don’t speak for all Jews or atheists of course. I see billboards about Jesus along the road, sky writing, bumper stickers, fishes, I am bombarded here. But, hey, the country has a majority of Christians, so of course statisically there will be more Christian stuff around just for that reason alone. But, Jews are not going to write a billboard saying join up, it is not part of our religion to do it.

Very few people object to everyone getting a shot with holiday decorations from what I can tell. But, if the city buys the decorations and they are all Christmas, then what? The other symbols have to be purchased with private funds?

If a group of crazy Christians organized and set on fire a black church where people died (has happened in the past) the black Christians in mourning would still put up crosses, and no one would think twice about it I think.

I think McVeigh wanted some sort of retribution against the government after Waco if I remember correctly.

Just about every question you pose you answered yourself, the country has a majority of christians. So it is only logical that you see the most of those symbols. And let’s face it, crosses have been around for a while so that could be part of it as well. I don’t know about moons and star of david. I should imagine if you go through an area that has a majority of those sects, then you would see more of their symbols. I am sure you don’t see a hell of a lot of crosses in muslim neighborhoods or countries.

I don’t know of any 150 foot Star of Davids anywhere in America. But, I don’t know everything. That is not the only huge cross(es) roadside. And, I don’t know of any synagogues putting up statue of liberty replicas with a star instead of a torch. The liberty statue with the cross is offensive in my opinion. It is not just the quantity, it is what the specific Christian message or symbol is.

@rooeytoo Plus, you do see the difference between accepting there are a lot of Christians in the country so we have a lot of crosses around, and Christians trying to tell Jews, Muslims and atheists the cross represents everyone?

Is there a plaque on the cross in question that says this?

The point to me is that certain symbols and traditions have been going on in the USA and Australia for a lot of years. Now suddenly the PC police have moved in and said you can’t do this anymore because you might be offending a small minority of people. Is majority rules no longer the go? How are you going to elect the next president? By whomever wins the minority vote?

@rooeytoo about 25% of NYC is Jewish. It’s estimated about that percentage died in the attacks more or less. Not a small percentage.

And, a plaque that says what? I am talking about some of our jellies who have said the cross represents everyone.

America has done some pretty sucky things because they have the majority vote, that argument isn’t great.

I am not saying they can’t do it. Like I said generally I am not on a campaign to get rid of everything religious in our public arena. But, they, whoever they are, should be aware what it means to nonChristians, and not guess incorrectly, or tell us what we should be thinking it symbolizes.

@rooeytoo for the last time, this is not about freaking “POLITICAL CORRECTNESS”!!!

This is all about Christians hijacking public space and claiming ownership over morality.

BIG difference.

@fremen_warrior – you call it what you want, I will call it what I want. Christians who are in the majority are being discriminated against by a vocal minority who instead of putting up their own symbol want the existing one to be removed because it “might” offend someone. That is not only discrimination, it is PC gone crazy.

Apparently my response to @jleslie was modded. I’ll try again, you said christians are trying to tell everyone the cross represents them, I asked if there was a plaque that states that, in other words how do you come to this conclusion? I am not necessarily christian, i am definitely not jew or muslim, but I don’t care if everyone puts up their little symbol if that makes everyone happy. I simply don’t think that a cross has to be removed because a vocal minority doesn’t like it. There are many things in this world I don’t like or offend me, but I do not try to change the world to suit me. I think all religions are nuts and the atheists are just as crazy in the opposite direction, why can you not eat bacon in this day and age, why would a god promise 42 virgins for killing yourself and anyone else handy, why can you eat meat 6 days a week but not the 7th, why do you have to paint out the chrome on your car, why is the internal combustion engine the work of the devil, but you can have one on your tractor. They are all crazy, no one breed has the market on crazy. This cross is no crazier than anything else.

@rooeytoo think about how what you just wrote sounds like:

One of the most powerful movements in the world… is being oppressed by a minority.

And it is not that the cross, as you so put it might offend people, but it is offensive, period.
Yet another act of shameless self promotion by this sect, under the guise of spirituality.

@rooeytoo As I said, I was surprised to learn any Christians think the cross is the international symbol for rebirth, or honor the dead, or however it was put. I learned it here on this Q, I have never ever heard that before. I find it shocking. Really took me back. I was not saying there was a plaque, or that the people who erected this specific cross were thinking that. They may have simply been Christians who thought it would be a symbol honoring those who died there, and also understand it is not a Jewish symbol, or Atheist symbol, etc. They may be just fine with others erecting their own symbols. It’s NYC afterall, I would assume that city has more religious tolerance than most.

My point is also that they have to be ok with all religions putting up something, they don’t get to only have theirs just because they are the majority. I think we agree there. I don’t even think Christians are responsible to put up the symbols of other religions, but in diverse areas usually they think to do it. They certainly don’t get to say a Muslim Symbol to represent those who died there is forbidden if they get their cross. Muslims died there. Not just one, several, I don’t know how many. They don’t identify with the crazy Muslims who destroyed the buildings. If there is a section at the national cemetary for soldiers who died in Iraq, would we not put the Muslim symbol on a soldiers tombstone because we were fighting Muslims? We could just leave religion out of it in situations like ground zero, and others where there is a diverse population. A secular memorial would not make me feel like Jewish peope who died were not honored. Would Christians feel compelled to feel they have to have a cross there? We can list all the names of those who died there, we did that at the memorial I believe. I could see having a religious symbol after the name if the family wanted it there. I would hate to leave anyone out. I would hate to maybe have a cross and a star and whatever else, and then the one guy who doesn’t identify with any of the religious symbols has his missing.

Our laws are to protect the minority, to protect those who cannot easily protect themselves because they are the minority. We don’t just go with the majority, that is not America, we try to go for equal, that is the ideal. We know that things can change, populations change, individual communities have different race, ethnic, and religious mixes than the population at large.

I don’t think a lot of people who live around me would be ok with Jewish stars or Muslim symbols all over town, I really don’t. Some are ok, but not if they would start to feel pushed out. Their majority makes them oblivious to what it would be like in the minority. I think a moment to consider the golden rule can be helpful.

What should be done about this? ~

@bkcunningham nothing. You are missing the point completely. Please re-read the thread.

What do you see as the main point that I’m missing, @fremen_warrior?

<facepalm> @bkcunningham Each grave stone here has an individual mark on it depending on what faith (or lack thereof) the dead soldier was, and Arlington’s an actual cemetary. Ground Zero on the other hand is technically not a cemetary, it is more like a mass grave though not even that I think. Mostly it is a memorial site, and should not be used as yet another PR launchpad for any religious movement / sect or other such group. Then again I am Polish, so feel free to accuse me of ignorance on the subject based on that, who knows maybe I’m really missing something here.

@fremen_warrior Maybe she meant the holly tree? I guess that it symbolizes Christmas in America. I think it has Pagan roots, like most of the Christmas celebration we think of today in the commercial sense. But, still, associated now with a Christian holiday. Plus, @bkcunningham did put a tilde after it.