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Plucky's avatar

Christian Jellies: Is homophobia, rather than homosexuality, a sin?

Asked by Plucky (10286points) June 11th, 2013

Please be respectful and civil.

More clearly:

Is homosexuality a sin? Why or why not?

Is homophobia a sin? Why or why not?

This is a serious question and I’m not asking for a heated debate or argument. I want to know if you think homosexuality is a sin. And I would like to learn why you do or do not believe this.

Note: In using the term homosexuality, I know the word did not exist in biblical times. However, we use it now to describe same-sex attractions. So I am using it in this question when relating to the Bible.

In my studies, I’ve never found a specific and clear text in the Bible which states that homosexuality is a sin. There are references to homosexuality as a sin when it was in the form of adultery. There are also references to homosexuality being used as a punishment. Much of the homosexual acts were condemned as idol worship (being attracted to or worshipping one’s own genitalia was idol worship).

I know many anti-same-sex Christians will quote Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” and Leviticus 20:13, “If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.” However, you will also note that Leviticus is very gracious with the word “abomination”. It uses the term to describe anything unclean or associations with idol worship. The two verses I quoted above were not even in reference to homosexuals. They were in reference to heterosexuals who practised the Baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. This is only one example of how homophobes will yank any small text out from the Bible, without supplying the story behind it. Leviticus is full of strict and highly detailed laws and abominations. Yet, no Christian follows them all today. The focus is on a couple passages about sexuality instead. Seems kind of odd doesn’t it?

It amazes me how many Christians actually do not really study the Bible in which they hold so dear. And Jesus never even utterd the passages I quoted above. The only passage Jesus quoted, from Leviticus, is “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach about love. In fact, Jesus never once condemned homosexuals or even spoke of sexual orientation (according to the Bible).

The most important message in the Bible, I think, is love. God is love.

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs. (Source)

So wouldn’t homophobia be a sin in which Christians need to stray from?

I am not Christian (nor religious) but I have read and studied the Bible over the years. I’ve got a few large overstuffed binders full of my own notes on different theories and similarities/times of different religions. Granted, it has been awhile since I cracked them open. Religious Studies was one of my minors in college. The study of religion is a field in which I’ve been interested in since I was an older teen. So, no, it’s not my first dance around the Christian block. ;)

In closing, I feel like the real sin here should be homophobia and not homosexuality. This is what I wish the majority of Christians would focus on when it comes to this topic. If you disagree, please explain why.

I am not trying to bash Christianity. In my details, above, I am simply giving you my opinion and experience in the matter. I use Christianity because they tend to have the most vocal homophobes. If you belong to another religion, please feel free to answer my initial questions as well.

**I am rusty so if something is not clear, please ask me before berating me. I may have simply used the wrong term or phrasing. Give me a chance to clarify, please.

Thank you.

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131 Answers

Bellatrix's avatar

Homosexuality is not a sin anymore than having brown eyes is a sin. It’s just the way some people are made.

Homophobia of itself is also not a sin, it’s just ignorant. People who are homophobic are fearful of something they don’t understand and often sadly, don’t want to understand.

Acting on that homophobia in a violent or hateful way is morally wrong and I therefore believe the outcome of homophobia can be immoral.

Bellatrix's avatar

Oops, not a Christian. Sorry @Plucky.

jerv's avatar

Just like Constitutional Law, people read what they want to read from a text. Confirmation bias is rather common. Using the Bible to justify anti-gay hatred is really no different than using the Second Amendment to argue that we need to legalize full-auto machine guns with armor-piercing ammunition in that regard.

As for Homophobia being a sin, I see it as blatantly ignoring Matthew 7:1 ( “Judge not, that ye be not judged.”), so yes, gay-bashing is a sin.

@Bellatrix read near the end of the question: ” If you belong to another religion, please feel free to answer my initial questions as well.”

graynett's avatar

Love God before all others, love your neighbour as you would yourself these covenants from Jesus surpass the old covenants. made for the people prier to the coming of Christ. So now you can mussel your ox plough to the corners of the fields wear clothes of mixed fibres treat your homosexual neighbour as you would your self if you don’t!...... that’s a breach of the covenant

Bellatrix's avatar

Thanks @jerv. I read the “Christian Jellies” in the heading again after answering the question and the editing process passing and didn’t go back and read @Plucky‘s long question details again (no offence meant @Plucky). I’m an atheist.

XOIIO's avatar

God loves everyone equally. Except the homos, they can burn in hell!

Isn’t religion logical?

Pandora's avatar

Being born homosexual is no more a sin than being born straight. However, the act of lust is a sin. So gay OR straight, it applies to both. It also applies to lust for money, fame or power.

And as Jerv has explained, as Christians we should not judge. It is solely God’s place to judge mankind.

So it really doesn’t matter. In some form, everyone is a sinner. It is really hard to maintain the 7 virtues, unless you are a child. Chasity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, Humility. I’ve seen the last one broken many times on fluther. LOL

elbanditoroso's avatar

There isn’t one standard-issue Chrstianity – you have everything from Unitarian Universalists all the way to pentacostalists and Jehovas Witnesses, and every shade of pink inbetween.

By the same token, there are probably an infinite number of ways to define sin – and to refute the definition.

So there is no way to answer a question about “is something a sin?” because it is such an amorphous concept.

Having said that, how can it be a sin to be afraid of something (i.e. homophobia)?

Pandora's avatar

@elbanditoroso Being afraid is one thing but acting against someone in a hateful way or harmful way is a sin. Although what would be to fear. If you are straight, gay people cannot convert you.
No more than a christian can convert a die hard atheist or vice versa.

I’m afraid of having people walk close behind me in solitary places. Doesn’t mean I hate them. Or wish they would die, or throw rocks at them nor do I preach to my family to distrust and hate all of mankind. They just simply make me nervous because I was attacked twice in my life for letting my guard down. Both times it was by men, but, I don’t trust man or womankind enough to let my guard down in that type of situation.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I am a Christian and I have no idea if it’s a sin, since I’m not to judge my brothers and sisters, that is God’s job. My job is to share the love of Jesus with everyone I come into contact with.

A lot of Christians in my area don’t feel the same though and homophobia is alive and well.

Dutchess_III's avatar

To me, in a nut shell, one is about love, the other is about hatred and intolerance. Kind of answers the question, in my mind.

Homophobes will be homophobes whether they’re “Christian” or not.

dxs's avatar

Here’s the Catholic Perspective:

Catholics believe and agree that homosexual feelings are natural, and all people regardless of sexuality are deserving of respect. Therefore disliking a person because of their sexual thoughts is sinful because it is not treating a person with the respect they deserve. They are welcome in the Chuch like anyone else. (CCC 2357) However, chastity must be observed by anybody in the Catholic faith. (CCC 2359) Chastity is basically saving sex for marriage. (CCC 2337) Chaste sex the Catholic way is this:
-Procreative (CCC 1652)
-Only between a married couple (CCC 1601; CCC 1602)
-Natural—>no contraceptives (though natural time-of-the-month planning is accepted) (CCC 2370)

Since all Catholics must practice chastity, here are the reasons why homosexual relationships are sinful:
-not procreative: if two people of the same sex get at it, no baby can be formed
-Marriage is defined as a covenant between an accepting man and an accepting woman

Catholics also condemn in vitro and other “artificial” ways of giving birth, as well, so this is not an excuse for not being procreative. This takes away from the chastity aspect anyway, since procreation must occur between the couple and nobody else. It is also because it takes away from the necessary aspect of marriage of “becoming one” and separates sex from procreation. (CCC 2377)
==================================================================
“They were in reference to heterosexuals who practised the Baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks.” Where did you hear this?

Either way, Paul has his say on homosexuality, too, and he makes it seem like even more of an “abomination”.
———————————————————-
Romans 1:
”(24) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. (25) They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (26) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. (27) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” (source)
——————————————
1 Corinthians 6:
”(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men” (source)
—————————————————————————————
One more—> 1 Timothy 1:
_”(9) We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, (10) for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality”(source)
================================================
In a nutshell, homosexual acts are sinful, but homosexual thoughts are not. Disliking a person because of these violates their dignity and is therefore sinful. Homosexual thoughts are natural according to the CCC and all Catholics are called to practice chastity, even if that involves staying single.
===============================================
Somewhere in this quip, I wrote how Jesus never gives any harsh discriminative laws. All he says is to love one another. If you take everything else out of the bible, the bible doesn’t seem that harsh any more.

glacial's avatar

As an atheist, I don’t believe in the concept of sin, but according to my understanding of sin as it is determined in the bible, I would agree with @dxs‘s statement:

“In a nutshell, homosexual acts are sinful, but homosexual thoughts are not. Disliking a person because of these violates their dignity and is therefore sinful. ”

This was one of the first realizations that made me question Christianity as a teen (even though I am not gay and had no gay friends at that time), and began my journey to atheism and the rejection of religion.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@glacial Yeah, some churches here welcome LGBT’s then ‘convince’ them of their sin, and to stay in the church and on the good side of God, they marry into a hetero relationship, never to ‘sin’ again.

I just feel it may be devious or brainwashing.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I went to a Pentecostal church in the 80’s. There was a couple there, both female, and I’m pretty sure they were / are gay. No one ever said a word about it though.

When my fridge went out and I didn’t have the money to buy a new one, they gave me one they had in their garage. :)

dxs's avatar

@KNOWITALL A lot of Christian organizations are like that—brainwashing, and it is scary. That’s why I’m more of a fan of undenominational Christian practices.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@dxs That’s why I go fishing or head to the woods.

Most LGBT’s I know don’t attend church here actually, which is why I became so interested in the topic.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Hm. That’s interesting @KNOWITALL.

yankeetooter's avatar

I’m not sure fear of anything could be considered a sin, but judging people by their lifestyle is wrong. The Bible says, “Judge not, that you be not judged.” It also says that “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” How can anyone feel they have a right to consider themselves “better”, or more righteous than anyone else?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

Ok, I am going to try to attempt to answer this as best I can. AFAIK, homosexuality is a sin in the bible. Romans 1:26–27 shows that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Scripts 24 and 25 tell us homosexuality is a choice.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Now the bible may say homosexuality is a sin but it never encourages or ever constructs that homosexuals are to be hated.

Homophobia I think is a sin. If we were to look at Galations 5:19–21 it tells us that “enmities” which is hatred is indeed a sin. So if the persons core fear of homosexuality is a deed of the flesh and is causing hatred or outbursts of anger then yes it is a sin.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I hope that helps. <3

rojo's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Can you explain your logic to me?

The first quotes from Romans indicate that, and you seem to agree, God punishes a group for making an error in judgement (”...gave them over to degrading passions…”) by making them homosexual. It was not the choice of these poor unfortunates.
The second series of quotes you say tell us that homosexuality is a choice but when you read it ”...God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts…” it appears that they are also being punished, this time for choosing to not worship God. It even uses the same “gave over” terminology.

Why is one a punishment and the other a choice?

Do you not find it odd that in both cases, people are made gay by God yet most Christian faiths seem to feel that homosexuality is a choice?

Judi's avatar

Here’s a video on Clobbering Biblical Gay Bashing.
If you prefer to read it, here is the article it is based on.
If we, as Christians are going to condem people for being gay we should stop marrying people who have been divorced, start forcing widows to marry their husbands brother, and stop eating shellfish and wearing mixed textiles.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@rojo Logic? You want logic? < see my logical answer there.

The first scripts apparently you are reading wrong. They show that when people continue in sin and non belief, God “gives them over” to sin in order to show them a life of emptiness and hopelessness apart from God.

The only punishment is life without God and possibly if not repenting ones sins then not entering the Kingdom of God.

God does not make anyone do anything they do not want to. I think you are looking too hard for logic where maybe there is none. That is not me admitting that Christianity is illogical, that is me arguing that any idea of the existence of humans is illogical, so whatever you believe and however you believe we got here is your idea.

To me it might as well all be the fork logic or better yet the “hey diddle diddle” theory. You see I am superior to the fork and I could of invented the fork. I simply can not create a fork out of nothing but since I am better than the fork and I am the God of the fork, the spoon, the knife and eventually I make a plate. But somehow one has to wonder where in the world did the materials come from to make the fork?

And the Dish ran away with the Spoon.

Judi's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl , read the article above and you might change your mind.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Judi I am certainly not into gay bashing or homophobia I hope I am not sending that message. My best friend is gay he wouldn’t like me much :/. I was just answering the question as the best way I know from what I know in the bible, with verses that I remember. I am not going to read the article right now, I looked but I haven’t got the time to read the entire article at this moment.

Truth is to me it seems like homosexuality is no more of a sin than hatred is and one wouldn’t just have to repent for their sins but one also needs to be obedient to God and praise and worship him, many Christians do not even do this, my daughter mentioned to me that Muslims seem to be the only religion that are extremely faithful even praying more than at least 6 hours a day, if Christians were compared to Muslims, Christians are not very faithful at all.

The only fear that anyone should be afraid of is complete void of God now and in heaven.

Judi's avatar

Did you read the article @nofurbelowsbatgirl ? It is a Biblical perspective as well.

Plucky's avatar

Thank you thus far for the replies. I can’t address them until I’m at my laptop later this evening (most likely). My phone would take way too long.

Dutchess_III's avatar

” ...it seems like homosexuality is no more of a sin than hatred is… ”
I think homosexuality is not a “sin” at all, and I think hatred is and always will be.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

” ...it seems like homosexuality is no more of a sin than hatred is… ”
I think homosexuality is not a “sin” at all, and I think hatred is and always will be.

Let’s not be picky about some things I say. Just to clarify for all I do not hate homosexuals so I hope you are not seeing it be pointed out it that manner. It’s OK if you don’t want to follow God then don’t. But gee you seem to always want to pick apart my religious comments must be the initiation or hazing process some of you jellies like to put the newbies through. Its OK though I am taking it as a compliment. This isn’t my first rodeo.

I read the article @Judi and honestly I am still not sure, I have my reasons why but I am not getting into here, thanks for sharing.

JLeslie's avatar

I hear some Christians say everyone is a sinner, so what does it matter if something is a sin? I guess some sins are worse than others, but is homophobia or homosexuality a big enough sin that it is worth scrutiny? What matters is the result of the homophobia. Did the person beat to death a gay boy? Well, now you have murder, and that is a pretty big sin. Or, is the homophobic person just homophobic in his own mind? No outward displays of hatred, nothing violent, not trying to restrict other people’s rights. Homophobia itself is a thought, not an action. Homosexuality, if it is a sin; well, so is sex before marriage, is it that much different? Both are forbidden sex.

Plucky's avatar

@dxs The Baal fertility statement is from studying history as well. I should have stated that I believe those passages were referring to that (instead of outright insisting they did). I apologize. I can’t remember everything from when I was studying hardcore. I do know (from studies) that the ancient Pagan Caananites depended on the sex god, Molech (Baal) having sex with the goddess Asherah to have fertility in their crops. The temple had prostitutes who represented Asherah, and the customers represented Molech. This sexual ritual was a form of worship of Molech. In doing so, it was believed that the crops would always be bountiful. The way in which this was deemed as acceptable was that the worshipper would make an offering to the temple. Kind of sounds like modern day prostitution but with deities involved. Any ways, the prostitutes (representing Asherah) were always men (usually boys). They would wear female attire and a mask of Asherah. The customers (representing Molech) were, as you would guess, always men. Therefore, males would have sex with males as a form of worship.

So, if you consider what I just stated… read the passages again.

“You shall not lie with a male as though a woman; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)

“If a man lies with a male as though a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

It makes more sense that the passages are prohibiting these fertility rituals (of men laying down with other men, as if these men where women). Again, in both passages, they only mention men. Why wouldn’t women be included in this prohibition if it were about homosexuality? Because… only men took part in these rituals.

The passages seem more about religious prostitution than homosexuality. If they were referring to homosexuality, the passages would have different grammar in the original texts (semantics are extremely important in translating text). I’m getting annoyed with myself now because I can not remember some of the key words from the original passages (before being translated). There was confusion of the translation of a couple of different, but very similar, words into the word abomination. I’ll post it if I can find it.

Much of the Bible is about connecting the dots and filling in the blanks. We do this by looking at history and languages. Therefore, there are countless theories and interpretations on the thousands of verses/passages in the Bible.

I am going from memory here. In regards to the Pagan Caananites, I can try looking up the information on them and the fertility ritual as well. But, I’m sure anyone can Google it. I’ve been going through my binders… Ha! I can not believe how disorganized they are. How I followed/used them, I do not know. I’ll post more pertinent information as I come across it.

In regards to your quotes of the different passages:

Most of it seems like condemnations of idol worship, promiscuity, adultery and prostitution. The passage you quoted from Timothy 1:9–10, seems misinterpreted. The word homosexuality did not exist in biblical times. I think I read somewhere that there wasn’t even a word(s) to describe the differences in sexuality in the original texts. Another thing I need to find, lol.

Plucky's avatar

@Judi Thank you for posting that link. I am still going through it. I’m about a quarter way through.

@everyone My apologies, I have a had long night. It was my partner’s birthday (11th). I need to go to bed. I’ll continue after I’ve had sleep!

Judi's avatar

@KNOWITALL , some churches accept Gay families just the way they are. My church is open and affirming.

mattbrowne's avatar

Homophobia is a sin, yes.

Strauss's avatar

Homophobia, defined by Merriam-Webster Online as the fear of homosexuality, is not a sin for Christians, in my opinion (as a former Christian). I feel that hateful acts or attitudes as a result of that fear could very well be a sin.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 32:36–40 New International Version

Interestingly, these statements actually were quoted from what is now known as the Old Testamant. Verse 37 is actually a quotation of Deuteronomy 6:5, and Verse 39 comes from Leviticus 19:18.

Judi's avatar

But The bible does say “fear not” or “be not afraid@ 365 times so maybe fear IS a sin. If nothing else fear is not what God wants his people to do.
My favorite t shirt right now says: LOVE> fear

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Judi Some churches do accept LGBT’‘s, and a recent article in our local paper that caused headlines, was all about a preacher here telling his large congregation (AOG) that being gay was a sin. The other pastors all wrote him and sent it to the paper, telling him that he was being a bad representative of Christ in their opinions and that they’d welcome LGBT’s.

It’s a polarizing issue to the Christian community, and honestly, it’s a personal struggle because I have gay friends and they’re wonderful, and I can’t see being born gay as a sin, since we’re all created in God’s perfect image. I’ve read all kinds of contradictory things and decided that Christ’s love should surmount everything else, that’s all I can do and be perfectly content that Christ would approve. :)

dxs's avatar

Disclaimer: I am not Catholic
@dog
Hold on a second.
First of all, in my CCD classes, there was never any mentioning of a Baal ritual. I’d think that it would have been brought up because we studied Leviticus. When you say “men only took part in these rituals”…well yes maybe, but as I said I am not sure if these are the rituals being addressed. I assumed that like other bible passages, “men” refers to the whole human race. The Bible is also very chauvinistic keep in mind.
“Timothy 1:9–10, seems misinterpreted”
On the source, there was a footnote about this. I went to the website today and that footnote was taken down. I’d assume it’s the same message, something like “men shall not lie with men.” I was curious about that when I read it too but I remember the footnote explaining it well.
I hope I’m not coming off too arrogant. I’m only going off of what I have studied. You seem to know more about the bible than I do, especially about the translations of it. It seems (to me) that through this translation, the bible is pretty straight forward on their views of homosexuality.

dxs's avatar

I cannot believe I just called you Dog. @Plucky believe me when I say only got 2½ hours of sleep last night.

rojo's avatar

@dxs freudian slip maybe, was this joke about you?

Did you hear about the dyslectic existential insomniac?

He stayed up all night wondering if there really was a Dog.

dxs's avatar

@rojo Your words are beyond my ability to comprehend, yet again.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Man…I haven’t seen Dog around in a long time. Now I’m sad all day.

rojo's avatar

@dxs It’s all good. You’re still learning.

Dutchess_III's avatar

OK, @dxs! Took me a second, but I got it! He stayed up all night (insomniac) wondering if there was a God….which, he was dyslexic so it came out “Dog.” See. ? And existential people ponder deep thoughts so…. :)

genjgal's avatar

They’re both sin.
Homosexual tendencies is not a sin in and of itself, but rather part of our human nature to be tempted. (Jesus was tempted as well. For all I know He may have been tempted to lust after guys.) Lustful thoughts and sexual actions is where the sin lies.
Homophobia can mean different things to different people, but from your description it would be sin. If we love like Jesus loves we won’t be having hateful thoughts or actions toward homosexual people. Hey, we’re all sinners. I don’t want to throw the first stone.
It’s sick that some people mistreat others in the name of religion.
Some people would consider homophobic to simply be believing that homosexuality is a sin, but I do not see that in your definition.

JLeslie's avatar

@genjgal I never feel tempted to be gay. I appreciate a woman’s beauty, but I never think about wanting to be in a romantic relationship with one nor having sex with a woman. I am not repulsed by it, but it is not my inclination, definitely not a temptation.

Plucky's avatar

@dxs The Baal rituals which I spoke of are not in the Bible. They are from studying history of civilizations and religions… then comparing it with the recorded biblical history. The Pagan Caananites were practicing these types of rituals around that same time. The Bible doesn’t tell a history of the world. It tells history revolving around its teachings. This is why one must look elsewhere when trying to see the whole picture of any given time mentioned in the Bible.
As for the “men shall not lie with men”... you have to put it in context with the rest. Taking out a single sentence, or section of a sentence, can completely change the meaning to whatever the reader wants it to be.
This is what I mean about so many Christians who do not actually study the Bible. If one were to study it, along with recorded history, we can see it from a much larger picture. Things that may have not made sense start to become clearer. However, again, it depends who is making the connections and their motivations for doing so. I hope that makes sense.

@Dutchess_III Didn’t @Dog leave?

Plucky's avatar

@Bellatrix and @jerv I wholeheartedly agree with you. And, no worries @Bellatrix!

@graynett I am curious, why do you believe the covenants from Jesus surpass the old covenants made prior to his coming? I’m assuming because Jesus surpasses all before him and is in God’s image… etc? Do you only follow Jesus’ teachings? I’m not trying to debate or call you out on anything. I’m simply curious.

@XOIIO That would be the extremely fanatical illogical religious folks you are speaking of there. Thankfully, we don’t seem to have those on Fluther. At least, not outspoken ones.

@Pandora That is very true. And I agree about lust being the sin (no matter what sexuality one is), lust is a huge no-no in the Bible.

@elbanditoroso I am very aware that there are multitudes of varieties in Christianity. That is why I simply chose to use the terms Christianity/Christians. I was hoping for diverse answers from different types of Christians. Also, not everyone defines homophobia as simply a “fear of homosexuals”. Homophobia usually involves a hatred of sorts. And I agree, there are an infinite number ways to define sin. However, my question was about personal opinions/beliefs regarding homosexuality/homophobia being a sin or not (in regards to their religion).

@KNOWITALL Thank you for saying you don’t know if it is a sin. You don’t have to know everything, ya know.. :P ...Little love nudges aside, I wish more Christians/religions would leave the judgement of homosexuality to God.

@dxs I forgot to ask you… why are homosexual acts considerd a sin but homosexual thoughts are not? Can you explain please? And, is that from your religion/doctrine specifically or something you believe the Bible teaches?

@glacial Are you saying the contradiction in @dxs‘s statement (which I mention directly above this) is what led you on a different path? Or was it that you didn’t agree with the gist of it?

@yankeetooter Thank you. I agree. I don’t know why we are so fascinated with who is better than who… what belief is better… what group is better… etc. It is really unproductive for the human race.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Hmm. Ok, your first post is confusing to me.. but not. It’s basically an example of how contradicting the Bible is. It doesn’t exactly answer the question but makes it all the more confusing (in terms of whether or not homosexuality is a sin/punishment). God does not sin, why would he punish with sin? The passages you quoted still do not say that homosexuality is a sin. They can certainly be interpreted that way. However, they do not say outright that homosexuality is a sin. What is this “unnatural” thing they speak of? Without context, it really could mean anything. I’m not trying to discredit you (or initiate/haze you). I’m simply trying to respectfully understand why you think those specific passages illustrate the laws of sexuality.

@Dutchess_III Love versus hate makes sense to me as well. :)

@rojo You are coming from the same direction as I am. It was confusing to me as well.

@Judi I am still reading the article, lol. Been busy doing yard work all day. I agree though… there are so many laws and instructions in the Bible that we don’t, and can not, follow… we are all really screwed. I don’t think anyone could possibly follow them in our current existence.

@JLeslie I agree. Many Christians believe everyone is a sinner. However, as we’ve seen, many Christians also seem to attach different levels of badness to sins. In our more modern times, homosexuality seems to be one of the big bad ones. Some would see it just as serious and horrible as murder. In short, it seems to matter what type of sinner a person is. Although, I do believe religion is becoming more open to LGBT but it is a really slow process.

@genjgal By your description, that would also mean that heterosexuality is a sin. Heterosexuals have lust too. Maybe I am reading it wrong. It seems like you are saying homosexuality is a sin because of lust? Or do you mean homosexuality is a sin if acted upon and having lustful thoughts? Like a double-whammy for homosexuals. Whereas, for heterosexuals… the only sin would be the lust part. If that is the case, how did you come to this conclusion? I mean, did you read it… hear it… study it, etc?

I’ve been out in the sun all day… so, hopefully, I gave intelligent and thoughtful replies. Thanks for being so civil everyone. See, we can be nice when talking about religion… :P

JLeslie's avatar

@Plucky I think it has more to do with politics than anything else. The right wing has decided to latch onto it as an issue to divide people. The Christians were oblivious to the gay community until gay people started coming out and wanting equal rights. Although, where I just moved from, Memphis, it was stunning to me how many black Democrats were against gay rights issues, which was I think due to religion mostly. There were also a lot of black people pissed off when gay rights were abelled civil rights, they didn’t like being lumped in together, they felt their journey was much more difficult. I personally find it extremely dissapointing the black community there, I can’t speak for other places, didn’t see the connection and race to support gay people.

glacial's avatar

@Plucky What I could not bear was that to deny homosexuals sex for their entire lives, or to demand that they carry on their lives as if heterosexual, was pointlessly cruel. And it gives the impression that the god does not understand sexuality at all – it is the kind of rule that would be made up by humans of that era, based on ignorance and fear, rather than an eternal, omniscient god.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky ok, so when I say that to me homosexuality is a sin of course that is just the way I read it in the scriptures, and that is just my interpretation.

I really have no idea what God wants for us when it comes to having a happy life because living sin free is impossible and He knows it.

Personally, I love women they are beautiful and I aspire to be like them but not be with them. But my true desire is for men and I can say If I am in the right mood I am a tigress and I go hunting for men.

Anyway at the end of the the day when your head hits the pillow did you finish your day with acts of good deeds or evil intentions? And is God your #1? Do you ask for forgiveness and say prayers and give thanks to Him? Have you been baptized? < Which for christians washes away the original sin. So doing all these things if you marry a man or a woman with love and good intentions I cannot see how God can refuse anyone into his kingdom. We all sin. But the fact is is that you have to be willing to give your life while on earth over to God. We can be if we choose to be faithful and obedient to God first and he gives us the free will to do so. We can also be lustful or greedy in our actions and turn our cheeks to God. Most people I know today are just not really “faithful.”

My daughter said to me last night at our dinner conversation “sometimes people are too tired or they just forget to pray or they don’t care”. And that Muslims are the most faithful people on the planet, according to my daughter.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@genjgal I liked your post, thank you. We are all born in sin, and only saved through the grace of God.

So, if I were a homosexual male AND Christian, I would have to abstain from sex my entire life, or participate in a hetero relationship to stay a good Christian, is that correct, from your point of view?

I’m only asking because this is the question that so many of us are questioning and I’d like your honest opinion.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl In your opinion do you think homosexuality is a sin? Y / N.

dxs's avatar

@Plucky No! I don’t believe any of what I’m writing! This is only me speaking through the Catholic doctrines. None of it is personal to my beliefs. That’s why I put that disclaimer above my most recent post. Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough.
=======================================
Regarding your first response, the Catholic Church does look at the Bible in a literal sense, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can take every word face value. So that’s my best explanation as to why some people think Catholics “pick and choose” their beliefs—>because some things are harder than others to discern. This is not something I fully understand, but if you look at all of the Catholic doctrines, that is what they believe to be true, so I never took time to “discern” those things. I thought that the whole Old Testament was absurd. God seemed like a jerk. So I guess I can’t actually say too much about that.
To answer your second question about homosexual acts vs. thoughts, the Catholic Church agrees that homosexual thoughts are natural, so there’s nothing a person can do about that. Look at CCC 2358.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III My best friend is homosexual. I was his surrogate and we tried numerous times to get pregnant, of course this all stopped when we found out that he had HIV. In all honesty now I think I’m very lucky and so is the baby that we never brought into the world. Of course this all happened long before I was truly ever even trying or thinking of being obedient to God.

I really don’t think I need to answer the question because if you read all of my comments instead of being so nit-picky you should understand what side I am on.

I personally think you are misinterpreting things I am saying. And it starts to make sense how scriptures can be misinterpreted also, so I looked this up in my bible and so why don’t you tell me what you think it means:

1 Corinthians 6:9

9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men.

Anyway, I do not mean that I myself believe homosexuality is a sin. I said in my first comment ”AFAIK, homosexuality is a sin IN THE BIBLE”. I did not say I myself truly and honestly believe with all my heart that homosexuality is a sin.

Any comment after that was me speaking about the bible but not about my own personal feelings. My own personal feelings are not the answer to question and I was never making it about them until you wanted to know my opinion which I am still not clear why you need to know?

I personally have no idea if being homosexual is a sin or not so I can’t give you a straight forward yes or no. But I would never judge anyone based on their lifestyle that is not my place. So now you know.

graynett's avatar

@Plucky Jesus himself told all of mankind that he had come to set a new covenants to replace the “hard to obey” (my words) covenants of old: Even through these same thoughts were in Deuteronomy 6. He “ratified” them (me again)

KNOWITALL's avatar

That is why the question arises about choice or genetics. If you choose to sin it’s a knowing decision against God.

Plucky's avatar

@dxs Oh, I know you don’t follow that religion any more. I was just wondering if that is what you believed the Bible said (not whether or not it is true). No worries. Thank you for replying.

@graynett Ok, yes I am aware of that. I was curious why you thought they surpass the old ones.

@glacial Thank you for clarifying. I fully understand your concerns.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I think I, sort of, understand what you are saying. But it sounds like, even though your religion seems to believe homosexual acts are a sin, you are saying you might disagree? I know, at the end of your other post, you said you don’t know if it is a sin or not.

@JLeslie I understand the frustration. It is always really strange when a group that has had the same types of discrimination, humiliation, prejudice, etc… can be so closed to another group that has been shoved into the same judging rut of society.

@mattbrowne I’m so sorry I didn’t include in you in my response earlier! I thought I got everyone. Maybe because yours was so short, it got hidden. I’m curious though… why do you say homosexuality is a sin? Do you mean you personally believe this? Are you referring to a Christian belief or other religion?

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this thread. I haven’t been on my laptop for a few days.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky ;) yeah that’s pretty much what I am saying. It is confusing. If you look in the Bible and read the verses it sure can sound like homosexuality is a sin. I do personally disagree because if w are all made in God’s image then He understands. And I really believe for God that its not about who you are with but more about if that relationship means more than God so by not having God in your life and being obedient to Him then regardless of who you are with or not you are sinning because you are not living faithfully by His word.

Do you know what I mean?

The more I look into it the more confusing it gets. I can see why churches teach different faiths because they want to evolve and not shun people, like I do with bff. But guilt is another sin I think. To the core we are all sinners. That is why we should be faithful ask for forgivness and follow God if we want to go to heaven. I suppose that’s why we have free will. I hope that makes sense.

Which reminds of an article I once read see below and that the bible does talk about sodomy after the city of Sodom is destroyed.

This person here makes quite the argument to say it is a sin and it is a choice.

dxs's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl
You are not serious in posting that link, are you?

glacial's avatar

@dxs I fail to see why that link would be an inappropriate addition to this thread. It is one person’s interpretation of commentary on homosexuality in biblical scripture. Isn’t that what we’ve all been asked to provide?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@dxs you read what I said right?

The article I posted is another persons view on homosexuality being a sin because it is a choice.

To me it shows why many christians believe it that way. Do you want it sugar coated?

Those are not my words.

dxs's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I did not say that they were your words. I just felt like the person’s reasoning was way out of line.

Directly from your source:

: Don’t most professionals agree that a person’s sexual orientation is of biological or genetic origin?

:Yes, but they’re dead wrong. The majority of professional people once believed the earth to be flat. Were they right? The majority of astronomers once believed the stars could be numbered. Were they right? The majority of scientists today believe that men have evolved from monkeys. Are they right? In Genesis, the majority of the world thought Noah was crazy. Were they right? The majority thought Jesus Christ should be crucified. Were they right? Listen friend, if you’re running with “the majority,” then you are on a collision coarse with the Devil! IGNORE THE MAJORITY! Just trust God’s word. God says that sodomy is WRONG, so it’s wrong. Period.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@dxs Unfortunately it’s correct though. Most Christians will take the biblical stance of SSM being a sin based on the Bible and the Bible alone. Some will never think about it again because they have their answer from their God and there is nothing left to discuss.

Some of us Christians choose to think things through a little more when it comes to human beings and how we live our lives, and Jesus teachings are very different from the Old Testament.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@dxs it’s an opinion. In all of the churches and at the core of christianity God teaches us that He is omnipotent and we are all equal., even though many a men and women, faithful or not, try to take over the role.

glacial's avatar

@dxs But the views expressed about homosexuality in that link are not very different from the ones that you described above as coming from the Catholic church. The inflammatory rhetorical style is beside the point.

KNOWITALL's avatar

And when you look at the falling church attendance/ tithes and the fact that 58% of Americans support SSM, you’ll see why it’s important to understand the point of view of the other 42%.

My strategy is to remind people that God also gave us brains and hearts, which tell us that treating anyone poorly for any reason is unacceptable if we believe.

One of my best friends has gay friends that he loves, and he still insists that although he loves them, it’s still a sin. And he’s very educated, been out of the country many times and is very loving and kind. It’s difficult and we try not to discuss it anymore.

genjgal's avatar

I haven’t been on the last few days. Sorry
@Plucky I came to my conclusion through all three of those means I suppose. I got the ideas from reading and listening, but since then I have studied it out for myself to see what the Bible really has to say. Knowing gay people myself and desiring to love them, it’s not any easy thing to know that just holding this belief is hurtful to them.

No heterosexuality in and of itself is not sin. Lust and sexual acts towards someone who is not your husband/wife is equally sinful whether it be towards the same or the opposite sex. @KNOWITALL Also, since marriage cannot exist between two members of the same sex, then the only options left would be celibacy or a heterosexual marriage relationship.

Notice in the the verses below that God does not separate fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, and the effeminate, and they are all justified by the sacrifice of Jesus. [And since lust is fornication/adultery in the heart I’m in the same boat as any homosexual person.]
This is why a Christian can love a person and still believe that they are in sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9,11 (King James Version)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

dxs's avatar

@glacial No. The views of the Catholic Church are in fact very different from this person’s. The Catholic Church agrees that it is a natural tendency.
@KNOWITALL I’m actually going past the whole stance of homosexuality itself. I’m going on how this person reasons things out. The writer is saying that just because scientists, who have been wrong about certain things in the past, are definitely wrong this time and therefore should say no to it. What kind of reasoning is that? Yeah. Sure. Scientists are wrong most of the time anyway, right? Who needs them? ~

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

I don’t actually think science has found a single “homosexual gene”. AFAIK science has found through studies of twins that sexual preference is shaped not just by genetics but also by environmental factors.

Maybe some people think when you factor all those things together you can shape a persons choice, sounds crazy but people think they can do it, and again they never remember we are all made equal, we don’t get to choose. In the end it is always God’s choice.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@genjgal @dxs I understand what both of you are saying, and nothing short of Jesus telling me I’m wrong will change my mind. Love is still the answer, we are all God’s children made in His divine image. :)

Dutchess_III's avatar

If we are made in his divine image then it can’t be wrong, right? Of if it’s God’s choice as @nofurbelowsbatgirl said, then not only is it not wrong we have no control over it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Exactly, it’s logical.

Dutchess_III's avatar

But what about the haters? The homophobes? Are they made in God’s image? These are the kinds of thing I have a hard time reconciling.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III The Debil got to ‘em! :)

No seriously, some people just take the Bible literally for their own reasons, some think because that’s the right thing to do, and remember church leaders are telling their congregations that it’s a sin as well.

rojo's avatar

@KNOWITALL “I understand what both of you are saying, and nothing short of Jesus telling me I’m wrong will change my mind.”

This is Jesus. I am using @rojo s account because mine is not approved yet.

You are wrong.

Just thought you should know.

Peace,

Jeez.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III We are all made in God’s image but in the end we have been given free will. Even Jesus was tempted by evil. Homophobes are made in God’s image and so are haters, but their actions are not of good intentions.

God wants us but never makes us and always gives us free will to choose to love Him and to be pure and good and loving and non judgmental, like before we “ate from the tree of knowledge”, at which time we did not even know what nude meant because we had no knowledge of sin so we did not have a sense of pride or greed or conceit or suffering like we do know. Heaven will be void of all sin. Thats what I believe. And even Christians are sinners and can get this wrong.

Also just because Christians know about faith does not mean they hold all the power of it, they are just as equal as everyone else, so even Christians make this mistake and forget that it’s not their choice even though in many churches they do that, it’s one reason why I don’t go to church. For example where I live, the baptists will come to your house just to see how much money you make, just to make sure you can invest a certain percentage of that into the church…ok whatever.

dxs's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl They have not found evidence. What I mean by “natural tendency” is that it is agreed that people do not have control over their sexual feelings. I see environmental factors as the most logical theory. I see it being a choice as the least logical. There have been similarities with twins (i.e. Tegan and Sara) but again, they also grew up in similar environments as well. Whatever. I don’t even think sexuality should be that black and white anyway.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@dxs ok so if the scientists have not found evidence then I would suppose that we do actually still need them and the reasoning as of right now isn’t so out thereas you stated because the scientists havent given us an answer so until it is comfirmed there actually is evidence that a gene for homosexuality actually exists we have no other ideas and I personally think its illogical to say thay people dont have control over their sexual feelings. :/ I hope that makes sense.

dxs's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl The whole point was that this guy was slamming down scientists as if they’re ignorant and clueless.
“Illogial to say that people don’t have control over their sexual feelings” What I meant was sexual orientation. You’ll agree that people have no control over that, right?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@dxs I don’t know, tbh.

Plucky's avatar

Interesting point:

I was asexual until I met my current partner. I had never felt sexual urges before (nor had sexual pleasure). It just did not exist for me. As my partner and I became closer, I was zinged by sexual feelings (I was 24 when this first happened). I was scared, ashamed/embarrassed and excited all at once. I did not choose to be attracted to her. It just happened. It would have been the same if she were male. If people think I chose to be gay, I am confused by how that is possible. Granted, I did choose to partake in a homosexual relationship with my partner. I chose to act upon those feelings. But those feelings were not chosen by me, personally.

To me, if homosexuality is a sin because we chose to be that way and we acted upon that choice, then so is heterosexuality. If you can choose to be a practicing gay person… then you can also choose to be a straight one. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Also, I think sexual orientation is both genetic and environmental. However, I also believe all humans are born bisexual. The rest is environmental. That may be for another thread though.

dxs's avatar

@Plucky I agree. There’s no way it’s a choice. How do you explain all of those teens who committed suicide for not being accepted? Changing who you are is impossible. There’s no switch. You can’t press a button to activate gay mode or straight mode.

glacial's avatar

@Plucky But the question of whether being homosexual is a choice is different from the question of whether it is a sin. In wanting the Christian god to be good and just, one tries to deny that it is possible that homosexuality could be a sin if it is not a choice. One tries to pretend that the words in the bible must be mistranslated, or misinterpreted, or subject to correction in later chapters. But the words are still there. The Christian god should be judged by those words, if one is to take the bible seriously at all. That is what I struggled with as a youth – realizing that I had a higher moral standard than the god I was supposed to worship.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

I agree with @glacial.

The question of choice is for another thread.

When it comes to choice versus non choice, there are other factors like psychology that need to be addressed, because when it comes down to it we are meant to procreate and same sex partners cannot procreate at least not together.

So, I’m not saying that anyone can’t be attracted to whoever they want to be, but sperm is meant for creating babies, and only women have the organs to hold babies. So it seems odd to me that it is “normal” that if we were all in the entire world to all became same sex partners that we would have to manufacture babies.

Also like my bff goes to gay pride every year, but “pride” actually is a sin.

So that’s why I don’t know. I do know that after I decided to devote myself to God, I have been able to curve my sexual appetite to 0 and I can say that I have many fetishes so to me it seems like a choice, because I choose to turn off my sexual feelings and when I wasn’t following God I just let my sexual feelings take over and I didn’t think about it.

Also commiting suicide is a choice, I’ve made that choice before. It’s a very bad choice and usually it’s a selfish choice, but it’s a choice.

dxs's avatar

@glacial What if you just looked at what Jesus said and nothing else? Jesus says nothing about most “laws” that people consider controversial today.

glacial's avatar

@dxs Sure. There are a zillion different ways to squint at the bible and see whatever I like. In the end, this amounts to creating god in my image. What is the point of doing that?

dxs's avatar

@glacial I am agnostic, so I’m not trying to form my own god. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to understand the Bible. I was just pointing out that Jesus’s moral teachings are the most logical and reasonable over any others in the book. It’s just suspicious that he says nothing about all of these harsh laws that were set in the Old Testament or stated by Paul, yet he is the most important voice in the Bible.

Plucky's avatar

@glacial and @nofurbelowsbatgirl Yes, the question is about whether or not homosexuality is a sin. However, many Christians equate homosexuality being a choice with it being a sin. Meaning, because it is a choice, one is not born that way; therefore, calling it a sin that we choose. Which is why I thought it was relevant.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Plucky It would be a great Question to pose, and understanding why people feel as they do is the key to understanding and changing their opinions.

I think @rojo and a couple others were thinking we were saying that’s how we feel, which, for me, is not true at all. Peace.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky If that is true then that doesn’t make sense to me because a Christian should know that everyone is born with sin so if homosexuality is a sin like any other sin than it is up to the person to deal with it whichever way they think is appropiate.

So if God has decided it is a sin and come the time the sinner has not followed through with asking forgiveness or will not, does not or chooses not to ask for forgiveness then that will be a betrayal to God when judgment time comes, and that is on the individual and at that time no one else will matter.

But the question now has me wondering, if God wanted us to be gay then why aren’t we all gay and why can’t same sex partners procreate? That’s why I wonder about psychology and other factors I have no clue about.

Here’s another perspective maybe you can appreciate @Plucky, being a vegan I can say I don’t have a choice that I have to fuel my body, but when I really started to think about it I really had a choice about the fuel I put into my body.

It’s all very confusing for me, and I’m straight. So I just choose to believe in equality. Because when I think about things, I really look for a deeper meaning into everything, it’s a major fault of mine.

dxs's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl
“if God wanted us to be gay then why aren’t we all gay and why can’t same sex partners procreate?”
Maybe it’s part of God’s idea of diversity—>Everyone can’t be the same.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl What if there was no such thing as God? What would your logic be then? Just a hypothetical question…..

bkcunningham's avatar

Do you think that evolution is moving us toward just cloning ourselves? I mean, what is the point of sex? Why have we evolved to feel pleasures, love and attractions toward people?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

Well to make it simple for you @Dutchess_III my logic would be different wouldn’t it. I couldn’t give you the answer at this moment because to me the answer would be illogical because I believe God exists and I’m sure it’s already been said somewhere.

Do I have to repeat just to please you?

I do believe that God exists and apparently so does someone who wants to know if homosexuality is a sin, because if God doesn’t exist there is no sin and if there is no sin there is no reason for this question.

So even still I can’t answer your question logically because the entire format of your question is self defeating and illogical to me.

glacial's avatar

@bkcunningham Well, there are some scientists who think that the Y chromosome is doomed to extinction. ;) But it’s not a widely-held view.

Yes, humans have evolved to feel pleasure, love, and attractions – and it’s commonly thought that the reason for this is that it promotes procreation. But homosexuality in a small proportion of the species does not threaten our ability to procreate sexually. Our population is increasing too quickly, if anything. Nor does that proportion seem to be increasing. Also, remember that homosexuality is actually quite common in the animal kingdom – it happens in a lot of species that procreate only sexually. Those who call it “unnatural” always seem not to notice that.

Dutchess_III's avatar

”.......if God doesn’t exist there is no sin…”

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III What’s your point? Stop nitpicking everything I say out of context to start deliberate conversation about religion or other which you keep doing and usually have nothing to do with the question.

Stay on topic!

Funny thing is you come here on a question about homosexuality, which I am continually promoting equality, but apparently you yourself have no problem being extremely judgmental.

I am pretty sure I know what you are trying to pick out of my comment with the quote and TBH if you don’t believe in God, that has nothing to do with the question and nothing to do with me or my answer.

When did you turn into such a flamer anyway?

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, I was just pointing to the sentence where you answered my hypothetical question. It wasn’t out of context. There is no mistaking that you believe in God, but IF he didn’t exist there would be no sin. We have to make our decisions based on plain old morality and decency.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III I apologize for that. Although it would really help if you pointed that out and made it a little clearer, otherwise I’m left doing what I just did which is trying to guess and try to read what you are thinking.

So if you are saying “we have to make our decisions based on plain old morality and decency” then are you saying homosexuality is a choice? Or what at you saying exactly cause now I’m confused and I can’t think because I’m on my way to the gym. :/

Dutchess_III's avatar

I apologize! It wasn’t really clear.
No @nofurbelowsbatgirl. I’m saying that our reaction to homosexuality is a choice. Being homophobic is a choice and it’s wrong. Unfortunately so many homophobics call themselves Christians and I think it’s hypocritical and it makes me sad for the religion I once loved.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Ha ha! I just saw a post on fb that said, “If you don’t like gay marriage, blame the straight people. They’re the ones having gay babies.” :)

Plucky's avatar

@Dutchess_III I have that on my Pinterest too :P

Plucky's avatar

Note: I asked the question because I was curious what religious (particularly Christian) jellies thought about homosexuality being a sin or not, and why. I’m not asking if it is a sin or not – more so what others believe, according to their religion(s).

I apologize I haven’t been on much to follow the thread in the last day or so. My city, and surrounding areas, are under State of Emergency because of flooding. It’s been a busy couple of days.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky I was wondering if you were doing OK?

@Dutchess_III OK. I understand now :) I believe we are on a similar page.

My reply is long sorry but it is just a general reply and I am kind of adding to what you said, “so many homophobics call themselves Christians and I think it’s hypocritical”, it’s just me trying to make sense of it all.

If there is one thing I could accomplish before I die it would be equality. But sometimes some peoples version of equality is screwed up or some people get more invested into certain areas and instead it becomes a power struggle like animal rights, anti-abortion and legal euthanasia (assisted suicide) are just a few that struggle for equality.

As you stated @Dutchess_III, it is about morality and decency for many people. But any good and true God fearing Christian should understand that we are all here and we are all meant to suffer, also a good and true God fearing Christian should not teach others to hate any one persons choice, because God does not hate, so I agree with your statement, “Being homophobic is a choice and it’s wrong.”

Hatred is a sin and sin is evil and is not from God, Jesus was God and even in the bible it tells us that Jesus resisted evil temptation, so that tells us that we will be faced with evil but we can resist evil temptation, but also the crux in our society is we have decided to choose which “sin” is more evil than other “sins”. And the way I see it, any sin is equal to another and we are all sinners thus we are all equal. God came down as Jesus in human form to show us that He also suffered so to me it seems illogical that a true Christian doesn’t understand that we are all here to suffer, so I can’t understand why some Christians have to push the fact that homosexuality is a sin, to me again that is the whole struggle for equality idea that I am talking about because even if it is a sin we are all sinners, so which sin at the end of the day is the worst is not up to the church, it is up to God, IMHO all sin is equal. It’s not about the actual sin. That’s why people say “hate the sin, love the sinner.”

I suppose if I were God it would seem more logical that humans should just accept what they are given regardless of being born with it or not or the choices they make and suffer the consequences, after all Jesus did it for us and no one pulled Him down off the cross as an act of decency or morality even though He did good things and still to this day is demonized for it.

Have we really changed so much? Maybe not. If you really think about it back then the murder of Jesus was a conspiracy involving Rome, Herod, the Jewish leaders and the people of Israel. This diverse group of people never worked together on anything before or since, but they came together at the crucifixion of Jesus. Much like the groups I just talked about above. And we too much like them are wondering where Jesus went and are still waiting for the return of Christ.

The irony of it is that we sin and we can’t help it. So is homosexuality a sin? Well according to the scriptures the way I read them yes it is a sin but it is not up to Christians to demonize anyone for their sins, after all God gave us free will. Christians are also sinners so their actions are never infallible. At the same time it was Jesus who told us that if we follow God and ask for forgiveness so that we will get to go to His kingdom of heaven, but most people today don’t want to follow someone they can’t see because you know it’s all an elaborate hoax made by someone a long time ago in attempt to frame us to be peaceful and good.

Right, we’ve been punked by a guy named Jesus and his followers.
So then people are saying we haven’t really evolved much at all because the only thing missing out of my last remark is the fact that @Jesus didn’t have a PC and didn’t use #twitter. :/

Plucky's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Thank you. My neighbourhood is doing well compared to many unfortunate areas of the city. We haven’t had massive flooding – just a lot of huge puddles and run off everywhere (probably some basements with a bit of water in them). We live on the middle of a hill, thank goodness.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky Thank God for that :) But it is unfortunate for the other areas. I have been watching the flood on TWN and it is crazy. People being evacuated by farm equipment, mudslides and so on. I am more closer to TO. The most we get is tornado warnings, we had one last week. There hasn’t been a flood here in a long time, nor is it much of a big natural disaster area, heat wave is coming though starting tomorrow through the week, with a high of feeling like 102 by Tuesday sigh :(

rojo's avatar

Ok, this is a source of constant irritation to me (@nofurbelowsbatgirl don’t take this personal, I am not meaning to single you out) but why would I want to be thanking god that @Plucky ‘s neighborhood is not underwater yet not cursing god for flooding the rest of the areas?

Seems to me if ya want credit for one ya gotta take responsibility for the other.

Bellatrix's avatar

I thanked god I’m an atheist the other day…

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@rojo Do I really have to explain it to you?

I understand its not to pick on me but it’s to pick on God. After all He is still blamed for almost everything that happens when people don’t understand Him or His creation.

It’s called ignorance @rojo and if your really that interested in finding out then maybe, don’t take this personal, instead of directing your ignorance towards me you could as @Bellatrix so eloquently an ironically put it, just simply turn your cheek and take the easy way out, OR why don’t you learn about our creator like I have, because I could tell you about Him all day, but do you really want that?

glacial's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Do you actually have an answer to @rojo‘s question? I am curious to know what your point of view is.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@glacial devastation brings out the truth that we are not really in control. This leads many people to God not away from Him, so in fact we see the devastation and suffering which is what we are supposed to see since that is the reason we are here, the truth is God is glorified because in the wake of tragedy people always come together also we may suffer and mourn the dead on earth but God get’s to lead them to their final resting place.

Anger is a sin and instead of being angry with God people should pour their hearts out to him and pray to him and ask for forgiveness.

I hope that’s good because I haven’t even had my first cup of coffee or walked my dogs and my day is not getting any longer and ironically speaking of God and devastation my city is in the middle of a heat wave so I must get the dogs out before I start my day and it gets deathly hot.

rojo's avatar

Why would you call me ignorant for asking for an answer to a question I have?

As to why I would direct the “ignorance” to you, it is because it concerned something you said.

Maybe, as far as you are concerned, I should just turn the other cheek and live with the ignorance.

To quote Thomas Jefferson “Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong”.

Bellatrix's avatar

Actually, no easy way out, turning cheeks or living with ignorance involved. I just thought it was very funny when I caught myself thinking ‘thank god I’m an atheist’. I put it down to brainwashing I received as a child from the Anglican church.

I think @rojo‘s question is very valid.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@glacial :)

@rojo You are not ignorant for asking the question. That is not what I meant at all. I meant it more like if I am enjoying something that doesn’t look pleasing to you, but you don’t want to try it for yourself so instead you announce that it doesn’t look enjoyable for what you see it as and then when you don’t understand something about it you just want to look to me or someone else who has knowledge about the experience for the answer when you really could just get out there and enjoy the experience and really learn about it instead of trying to live through me or someone else.

You have your views, we all do, I get that, but sometimes the types of questions that I get asked shows me there is a sort of ignorance against what God teaches. Trust me I’m not trying to point fingers, this ignorant view is quite common even so among some faithful people. Which ironically will get easier for me to explain as I continue on with my comment special thanks to the quote you chose.

I also remember a quote as said by Augustine “It is harder to conceal ignorance than to acquire knowledge.”

BTW, my quote probably fits perfectly since I hope you do know that of course Thomas Jefferson would fight for his right to be ignorant and what he believed was the truth, it’s who he was. He believed in the Christian God but he did not believe that any of the “miracles” in the Bible happened, and he even so ignorantly went as far to rewrite scriptures from the Bible to his liking into his own interpretation of the “Jefferson Bible”.

I say miracles in quotation because things that we read in scriptures and think that Jesus did can be explained through which we now know what is called etiologies in the bible.

And so I say it’s funny that you use a quote of his and I used the quote I did because if it is true and it is “harder to conceal ignorance” then Thomas Jefferson being a Unitarian and only believing in one Christian God and since the Christian doctrine teaches otherwise then his belief IMHO is the epitome of a true ignorant “Christian”.

So, we could throw quotes around all day, but blah, blah, blah.

Plucky's avatar

Sorry for not being around lately. The flood crisis has us all busy (and we may be adopting another dog through this experience, lol). Just checking in.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Plucky its OK! We completely understand.

Dutchess_III's avatar

“Mon @Plucky! Get yer priorities straight! What kind of dog? I’d love to hear the story when things settle down. Thinking of you.

rojo's avatar

Be careful of that quote, it is a double edged sword.

As to your assertion that ”...the types of questions that I get asked shows me there is a sort of ignorance against what God teaches.”

No. There may be distrust AGAINST what god teaches or even a lack of belief IN what god teaches; there may even be ignorance OF what god teaches but there is not ignorance AGAINST what god teaches.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

Ah but, a lack of belief and a distrust against God IS ignorance. Also any admitted ignorance is ignorance so you can try to make it sound better by rearranging words but you said it yourself…“Ignorance OF what God teaches”. So basically you admit to ignorance but you are saying you want to choose what you are ignorant to? Well that’s complete ignorance. :/

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t think anyone distrusts God. They distrust the human beings who are interpreting what His will and what his motivations are. God isn’t ignorant, humans are. Every Christian seems to taylor “their” God so he dovetails with their lives and their motivations. They taylor him so they can justify whatever they’re doing. Apparently he’s a pretty flexible being in that regard. We’d say 911 was “evil.” The Jihads would say they were just doing God’s Will. (So they call him Allah…same God, different name.)

rojo's avatar

Yes, I said you can be ignorant OF what god teaches but I also said you cannot be ignorant AGAINST what god teaches. If I do not know the teachings I am ignorant, if I know them and reject them as primitive superstition I am not ignorant.

If I ask you to tell me what you know about a subject and you do so then I am no longer ignorant about that topic. Knowing what you know puts us on the same level whether or not I choose to believe what you believe.

Ignorance is not knowing and/or not wanting to know. Your mistake is that you do not know the difference between belief and knowledge and do not want to know.

Which, in my opinion, makes you ignorant.

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III that’s true what you said. God isn’t ignorant, so what he teaches isn’t ignorant, it’s the humans who are ignorant, so therefore if someone doesn’t understand what they are teaching or they have their own agenda like I personally think many churches do than they probably are teaching some sort of ignorance.

@rojo I could not possibly teach you everything I know.

Your definition of ignorant “Ignorance is not knowing and/or not wanting to know” I actually think that makes me less ignorant and not more ignorant.

I have a lot of knowledge of other belief systems, would you like me to teach you witchcraft? I would not simply as it goes against my beliefs today and that is just one example of another belief system I have knowledge about, but it is one of many cultish things I practiced, so therefore I am not ignorant of it because I do have knowledge of it but I choose to be ignorant of it or turn my cheek because when I put all things together Christianity for me is the most logical, so teaching withcraft not only goes against my beliefs but to me it is illogical now that I have more knowledge.

So before you asked me questions that helped you to gain knowledge you were ignorant, which was the point of my argument, but after that one chooses a belief system, and if my belief makes me ignorant then your belief makes you ignorant.

Unless you are God and omniscient we are all ignorant no matter how much knowledge we have.

Does that make sense? Are we on the same page yet?

Dutchess_III's avatar

@nofurbelowsbatgirl From your post above, you said “Your definition of ignorant “Ignorance is not knowing and/or not wanting to know” I actually think that makes me less ignorant and not more ignorant.”
I don’t understand. Could you explain that to me?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

@Dutchess_III OK I’ll explain this the best way I can.

First part of rojo’s comment says “Ignorance is not knowing and/or not wanting to know.” Which is not entirely me because I have knowledge not just about God but about many beliefs/non beliefs. But then if I am ignorant because I choose one belief over the others then we are all ignorant so tu quoque.

The comment from rojo also says that “I do not know the difference between belief and knowledge and do not want to know.”

That is just simply not true. I have practiced witchcraft, satanism, I was an atheist, I have been introduced to some Aboriginal spirituality also various Christian denominations.

Also within any of those beliefs at the time including atheism I researched various ideas on evolution and creationism. So to say I am ignorant is not true. I didn’t just land at my belief because that’s how I was brought up or I just want to ignore all other knowledge. How I got to my belief was basically by weeding through many and coming to the conclusion that one is the most logical and that one for me is Christianity and for me it is based on evidence and knowledge not just on blind faith.

At one time I even ventured the thought of planning to move to the Vatican to fully learn catholicism. I still would love to go there, but honestly I do not need church to worship God, especially since I have problems trusting the people in the church.

The last church I was at the married deacon was having an affair with another member of the church.

Dutchess_III's avatar

May I ask what caused you to dismiss evolution as a possibility?

nofurbelowsbatgirl's avatar

Well I actually I am pretty sure we have evolved.

But I’m on my way to the gym so I’ll have to come back later.

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