General Question

jcs007's avatar

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone when I ask this: are the terrorists winning?

Asked by jcs007 (1765points) July 11th, 2008

All of this depressing news started to get to me. If bin Laden’s goal was to “destroy America,” then aren’t we kind of fulfilling that goal for him?

1. High gas prices – whatever the cause of it (terrorism? Bush? greedy oil companies?), it is hurting the economy and us.

2. Recession/Depression? – The economy was never as strong as pre-9/11. Yes, there was that bump in the stock market, but look at where it is now: (insert sound of whistle of falling bomb).

3. Breakdown of Americans’ trust of the government – “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. ” – Benjamin Franklin. FISA is just the tip of the iceberg…

I hate being pessimistic, but I honestly can’t think of how the U.S. is winning against bin Laden. Troops in Iraq? Pffft….

I hope someone can provide some encouragement. This is all too depressing for me to think about.

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41 Answers

Upward's avatar

Yep… Bush and co. fell right into it.

syz's avatar

If by did the terrorists win, you meant a weakening of the constitution, a miserable relationship with most of the rest of the world, and a breakdown of our rights, then yes. But guess what – we did it to ourselves by allowing our government to do it for us.

blastfamy's avatar

I will respectfully disagree with syz, that there are less rights in the US, now. Fact is, many of these “weaknesses have been around for some time. Now they are just legit. Americans are no worse off.

Getting back to the purpose of the question, I would say that Terrorism has won in America. Just look at airport security. We are waving little baggies in the TSA’s face to ensure that we have no explosives. In the interest of safety, we have given up the right to live comfortably. This is the area in which the terrorists have won. We don’t live anymore, we hide.

Response moderated
SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Bush and Co. created it. Bush and Co. created Osama Bin Laden via the CIA. Our government is the terrorists. Governments have used terror for control forever. Please watch this guy David Icke to really see how the government is using us.http://www.veoh.com/videos/e160979gsmCq2qs
Same thing that happened in Germany is happening here. Here is an excerpt from They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer:

Now I see a little better how Nazism overcame Germany – not by attack from without or by subversion from within, but with a whoop and a holler. It was what most Germans wanted – or, under pressure of combined reality and illusion, came to want. They wanted it; they got it; and they liked it.
I came home a little bit afraid for my country, afraid of what it might want, and get, and like, under combined pressure of reality and illusion. I felt – and feel – that it was not German Man that I met, but Man. He happened to be in Germany under certain conditions. He might be here under certain conditions. He might, under certain conditions, be I.

If I – and my countrymen – ever succumbed to that concatenation of conditions, no Constitution, no laws, no police, and certainly no army would be able to protect us from harm.

One of his closing chapters, “Peoria Uber Alles,” is so poignant and prescient that were Mayer still alive today I doubt he could read it out loud without his voice breaking. It’s the story of how what happened in Germany could just as easily happen in Peoria, Illinois, particularly if the city were to become isolationistic and suffered some sort of natural or man-made disaster or attack that threw its people into the warm but deadly embrace of authoritarianism.

The [Peorian] individual surrenders his individuality without a murmur, without, indeed, a second thought – and not just his individual hobbies and tastes, but his individual occupation, his individual family concerns, his individual needs. The primordial community, the tribe, re-emerges, it’s first function the preservation of all its members. Every normal personality of the day becomes an ‘authoritarian personality.’ A few recalcitrants have to be disciplined (vigorously, under the circumstances) for neglect or betrayal of their duty. A few groups have to be watched or, if necessary, taken in hand – the antisocial elements, the liberty-howlers, the agitators among the poor, and the criminal gangs. For the rest of the citizens – 95 percent or so of the population – duty is now the central fact of life. They obey, at first awkwardly, but, surprisingly soon, spontaneously.
Among Mayer’s stories are some of the most telling aspects of how the Nazis came to take over Germany (and much of Europe). I first quoted them a year ago in a Common Dreams article linked from BuzzFlash titled The Myth of National Victimhood. I noted that Mayer told how one of his friends said:

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security….
As a friend of Mayer’s noted, and Mayer recorded in his book:

This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter. ...
To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it – please try to believe me – unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, “regretted,” that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these “little measures” that no “patriotic German” could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

In this conversation, Mayer’s friend suggests that he wasn’t making an excuse for not resisting the rise of the fascists, but simply pointing out an undisputable reality. This, he suggests, is how fascism will always take over a nation.

“Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something – but then it was too late.”
“Yes,” I said.

“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not? – Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

“Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’

“And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. ...

“But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ‘43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ‘33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jew swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God.” ...

Mayer’s friend pointed out the terrible challenge faced then by average Germans, and today by peoples across the world, as governments are taken over by authoritarian, corporatist—fascist—regimes.

“How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men?” Mayer’s friend asked rhetorically. And, without the benefit of a previous and recent and well-remembered fascistic regime to refer to, he had to candidly answer: “Frankly, I do not know.”

This was the great problem that Mayer’s Nazis and so many in their day faced.

As Mayer’s Nazi friend noted, “I do not see, even now [how we could have stopped it]. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice – ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men?”

And here we are.

Vincentt's avatar

I think manu of the depressing news can be credited to the US government (Patriot Act, FISA) which clearly is giving in to the terrorists without the benefit being clear (except for more power to the government, less to the people).

Besides, the economic depression isn’t really caused by terrorism but by irresponsible banks.

So basically: sure, there’s a lot of problems today, but there have always been and will always be problems – it’s only a few of the problems that can be accredited to terrorism. That feeling, though, is also in great part caused by the US government, scaring you of terrorism. And sure, 9/11 was terrible, but how much has it impacted your daily life? Has terrorism ever affected you? And if it has: how likely is it that it will happen again?

marinelife's avatar

@jcs Everything that goes on in the U.S. is not the fault of terrorists. I believe that we as citizens can do much to restore our economy, our civil liberties and our credibility in the world by electing a Democratic president. I would also say to you that there has been no terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. That is a positive thing.

@blastfamy There are fewer rights today. The Patriot Act significantly erodes civil liberties. The Bush Administration’s ignoring of the FISA requirements on wire tapping is a clearly a violation of rights of due process and freedom from government intrusion.

syz's avatar

@blastfamy Americans are no worse off??!? Clearly you have not thought out what it means to have your civil liberties infringed (or perhaps you just think that it could never happen to you?).

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be ugly, but really?

kevbo's avatar

I’m with chris6137. All of this shit makes more sense if you view it as a ruse to advance a fascist and globalist agenda (designed by the Illuminati to ultimately to enslave the rest of us). Bush, however, is merely a puppet in all this, which also makes a lot of sense.

From what I understand, the CIA used and funded these same terrorists against the Russians in Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden was a CIA asset. Gee, what luck that we haven’t been able to catch him.

Is it coincidental that in Sept 2000, the neocon thinktank the Project for a New American Century, headed by Wolfie, Rummy, Cheney and all those boys reported that the process of building up America’s forces to dominate the world stage would be a long and slow one unless there was a “catastrophic and catalyzing event- like a new Pearl Harbor.”

I’m still digesting this stuff myself, so I’ll keep it short, but basically I think that the terrorism we’re being protected from has been orchestrated by our protectors. Just like the drugs we were told to “just say no” to in the 80’s were being supplied by our duly elected pushers.

Icke’s stuff is eye-opening.

blastfamy's avatar

@syz, my point is that what you say has been ratified by the current administration has been happening for years under past administrations. Bush Bashing is popular, therefore these things are brought to light. Hell, had this whole stink with the war in Iraq never existed, Bush (just like any other President including democrats) would have done the wire tappings regardless!

The fact still remains that there are people who want the American way of life to end. They will not stop until they feel that they are successful. Every sensible leader of this country has known that. The only difference here is that this president has made it easier for the telcoms to not have the ACLU trumpeting down their throats every time they are called to release information that saves AMERICAN LIVES.

Ohh, by the way. What are you saying on the telephone to people outside the country are you not willing for the government to hear? Honestly, be careful what you say! Big brother may be watching you ;)

kevbo's avatar

Watch this series of videos (there are 19 in all) and decide whether the “terrorists” are winning.

Harp's avatar

I have a hard time seeing how the term “winning” could have any real meaning in the current context. What is the prize?

I don’t believe for a second that hatred for our “freedom” or our “American way of life” is what is driving the insurgencies in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere. Our administration loves to frame the conflict in those terms because it pushes all the right psychological and emotional buttons. But frankly, apart from a very few radical ideologues, the insurgents just want foreigners, any foreigners, to get out of their homelands. The ideologues are simply able to channel those nationalist energies to their larger aims, but if the U.S. imperialist presence were to disappear, those ideologues would see their following vanish. The typical “terrorist” isn’t fighting to end our way of life; they just want theirs back. To see terrorist acts against American interests, even 9/11, as attempts to turn America into an Islamic state is just plain naive.

The notion of “winning” from the American perspective is equally nebulous. Win what? The hearts and minds of the folks we’re bombing? We’ll beat the crap out anyone who doesn’t want to accept our conditions until finally no one wishes us ill? Let me know when we get there.

blastfamy's avatar

not islamic state…
Boiling sea of glass

not someone who “accepts our terms”...
not someone who exists at all

These people believe that if it’s not their way, than we are to be taken out (ie, nixed, killed, shot, etc.). We are nothing to them; we are below nothing. These people believe that they have been charged by Allah to take out said nothings. They believe that this is their duty, and they have no intention of shying away from it. This is why these people must go; it truly is an us vs them scenario.

Not all of islam hates America; in fact, most don’t. The ones who take a radical interpretation of the Koran, see our demise as necessary. It is my personal, unwavering belief that they must be stopped.

Back to the question at hand: while terrorists have successfully brought America to a state of fear, the numbers of terrorists, to all reports I have heard, is falling. Rather ironic, actually, that we are living in a state of fear in America while we are doing well abroad!

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

@kevbo
Heres the hard part? Getting people to actually look on their own without turning on Fox or CNN. People are so busy just trying to get by that they dont have time to do the legwork, which involves no more than Google.

Google Cheney Obama cousin
Google Bush Charlemagne
Google 34 of 43 Presidents Charlemagne

Bush is a puppet. Obama is a puppet. They are all puppets. There are people above them controlling everything, the media, the dollar, the stock market, and most importantly, YOU.

Do as Kevbo said, and watch or read about David Icke. Everything will be so clear to you. And youll be on the street tomorrow rebelling.

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it’s evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don’t you know that you can count me out
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We’d all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We’re doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah…

You say you’ll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it’s the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right

Upward's avatar

Someday this once Great Nation will realize just how far off track we have all gone.
Bush and the gang will all be seen as traders they are.
They’ve taken this country to the brink of total disaster and we have let them.
Shame on us all…

Vincentt's avatar

@blasfamy – I want all of my telephone conversations to be private. The “I’ve got nothing to hide” argument is so extremely silly. Everybody has stuff to hide, and that should be possible. If you’d have nothing to hide, what would be the problem living in the world George Orwell crafted in 1984?

yetanother's avatar

@blastfamy – think about this for a second…

1. Under the new FISA bill they can now wire tap DOMESTIC phone calls from one citizen to another with no warrant, no probable cause, nothing.

2. They can place you in Guantanamo and say you are not a US citizen, and because they’ve eliminated Habeas Corpus you have no opportunity to prove otherwise. There you sit, innocent and able to prove it simply but you are not afforded that opportunity.

Yeah, the American dream…

kevbo's avatar

@chris6137— this isn’t to put you down, just to bring more of this up to the surface.

Do you think Ron Paul is clean?

tinyfaery's avatar

I can’t believe in a worldwide conspiracy; I don’t believe any group of people so intelligent, insightful, and frankly, psychic, to be able to mastermind our place in history.

I too want our current conception of “American life” to end. We are destroying ourselves, each other, and the planet. The American way of life is leading everyone and everything on a path to destruction. Am I a terrorist?

To answer the question. We are all losing.

Knotmyday's avatar

@Chris6137:
On reading your first post, my initial reaction was “Hey! What an insightful quotation! I would have been extremely grateful if it had been offered as an answer to this question, or perhaps even this one. Thank you for the recommendation, and I will head out and purchase that book instantly!”
Then you quoted that entire Beatles song, and my newly formed regard once once again sank to its former level.
It is very easy to only research items that fully support your personal zeitgeist. It is also easier to find a scapegoat than to determine relevant accountability.
Please do not pm me concerning this answer; it will be deleted just like the last one. I simply choose to disagree with your viewpoint.
I will be reading the book, though, and thank you for bringing it to my attention.

kevbo's avatar

@tinyfaery, you’ll have to forgive me for being persistent. I’ve been on a kick the last few days.

You say you can’t believe in a worldwide conspiracy. Is it easier to believe in ineptness, a series of mistakes, and coincidence?

In your list, you forgot “powerful.” Do you believe there is no group powerful enough to mastermind these things? Not to mention interested in preserving their power? Do you find it weird that Bush Sr. came to the CIA in ‘76, was elected VP in ‘80 and ‘84, president in ‘88 and then was succeeded by his son in 2000 and ‘04?

Wait, what about Clinton, right? You know, the boy from Hope? I guess it’s just coincidence that of all the airstrips in the entire United States the CIA under Reagan/Bush and during Iran/Contra and afterwards was flying in drugs from Central and South America to an airstrip in Mena, Arkansas, which just happened to coincide with Clinton’s terms as governor. Of course, I don’t have a primary source, but here’s one version of the story.

So that’s 28 consecutive years of presidential leadership shared among 3 guys in cahoots, two of whom are immediate family.

Really, which version is easier to believe? Conspiracy or coincidence?

Do you find it odd that Bush’s former press secretary Scott McClellan’s perception of Bush is almost a carbon copy of MP Paddy Ashdown’s and author Geoffrey Wheatcroft’s opinions of Tony Blair?

McClellan: “President Bush ‘convinces himself to believe what suits his needs at the moment,’ and has engaged in ‘self-deception’ to justify his political ends.”

Ashdown (of Blair): “He always means it at the time.”

Wheatcroft (of Blair): “He is something far more dangerous: he is not a liar but a man with no grasp at all of the distinction between objective truth and falsehood. The more sincere and intense his expression, the more likely he is to be saying something that is not the case.”

Is it easier to believe that two of the most powerful world leaders are fatally flawed people who mean well or that they are savvy enough (along with their media parrots) to employ tried and true methods to dupe the public and hide (or sugar coat) their agenda or perhaps the agenda of a person or group behind them both who is pulling the strings?

Is it easier to believe that it was merely a coincidence that London authorities were conducting exercises to simulate emergency response to train bombings on the very morning of the 7/7 London attacks?

Is it easier to believe that it was merely a coincidence that NORAD was conducting exercises to simulate military and FAA response to planes flying into buildings on the same morning as 9/11? What if you knew that on that morning, all but 17 of America’s fighter planes allocated for defense of national airspace were on exercises in Alaska and Canada? What if you knew that Cheney was at the helm of NORAD that morning?

Could those coincidences have been a deliberate attempt to confuse and delay emergency and military responders (Remember “Is this real world or exercise?” Link ) and provide some cover for the odd fact that our fighter planes kept showing up ten minutes too late or heading out in the wrong direction?

If you were to hypothesize that there is a group that is smart, powerful, insightful group of people who rather than being psychic are simply capable of orchestrating events via politics, finance, the media and the military, jacking us around and herding us toward a favorable response aimed at a predetermined solution—would world events make more or less sense to you?

tinyfaery's avatar

There is no way for me to make any sense of what is occurring in the world today. I get the connections, I even think its plausible that 9/11 could have been orchestrated, but I just cant believe there are guys sitting at a table planning everything; that is as unlikely to me as the existence of god.

Horrible people are doing vile things, in the name of god, money, whatever, and all of these actions put together have created the current world climate (pun intended). But it all being planned by a group of old men? I just can’t believe it.

But I see where you’re coming from :)

nikipedia's avatar

Uh, wait. David Icke? This David Icke?

“In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in which he identified the extraterrestrial Prison Warders as reptilians from the constellation Draco.[25]They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which has created “hybrids” who are “possessed” by the full-blooded reptilians.[26] The reptiles’ hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change from reptilian to human form if they consume human blood. Icke has drawn parallels with the 1980s science-fiction series V, in which the earth is taken over by reptiloid aliens disguised as humans.

According to Icke, the reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain’s late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: “The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to ‘shape-shift’.”[5]”

Am I…missing something?

kevbo's avatar

@niki, no, that’s pretty much it. Even if you throw out the reptile bit, there’s still evidence of common bloodlines.

I don’t mean to avoid this discussion, but it’s a whole huge topic unto itself. There’s a supporting quote, however, from Carl Sagan’s The Dragon’s of Eden:

It does no good whatsoever to ignore the reptilian component of human nature, particularly our ritualistic and hierarchical behavior. On the contrary the model may help us understand what humans are about.

In addition, what about reptile symbolism in modern and ancient culture? The serpent in the Garden of Eden? Dragons in Asian and European lore? The snaked symbol of the caduceus (which forms the same double-helix shape as DNA)? Again, it’s a huge topic, but it gets kind of interesting when Icke starts decoding texts, artifacts and myths from this point of view.

marinelife's avatar

@kevbo Out of the sun immediately, my friend!

kevbo's avatar

Is that any crazier than an angel flying down to a virgin and telling her that she’s going to give birth to a son who then is able to perform miracles including coming back to life? Or that when we die we go to heaven to be with our relatives or to hell to be with Hitler?

I wasn’t there for Christ, and I wasn’t there for reptiles. I’m just saying what makes sense to me based on some relatively new (for me) insight regarding how the world turns.

nikipedia's avatar

I don’t believe in that stuff, either, though. (Also…reptiles are still here.)

If you look at the entire course of human existence and search for coincidences, probability says….you’ll find some.

marinelife's avatar

Ya know, I have always wondered why, with four heart attacks, a quadruple bypass, stents and a balloon angioplasty that the old SOB Cheney didn’t just die. Must have been the Reptilian alien blood.

Response moderated
nikipedia's avatar

If you guys seriously want me to debunk the science behind these reptile claims, start a new thread and I’ll call Dr. S over.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

I’m not saying his reptilian theory is right or wrong, but everything that he talks about, is everything I have been reading about for 2 years, all wrapped into a timeline.

Have you researched anything he talks about besides the reptilian theory?

kevbo's avatar

Another interesting coincidence. The elevators in both towers were upgraded in the spring of 2001. Link

Explanations of molten steel at the WTC site.

kevbo's avatar

I apologize if this is getting excessive… another well-reasoned video on 9/11 inconsistencies.

kevbo's avatar

Examples of cover stories planted in the early 9/11 coverage.

More stuff

kevbo's avatar

Anybody here?

Here’s a nice video that relies on interviews of old, white guys with postgraduate degrees and ties.

Improbable Collapse

tinyfaery's avatar

Yes. But honestly, I’m not going to the sites you post. Like I said, I think its all plausible.

kevbo's avatar

You know, it’s funny you say that, because I had that same response to one of chris6137’s posts a long time ago (about Ron Paul, I think). So I understand where you’re coming from. Someday, if you have time, maybe take a look at Improbable Collapse. Stylistically, it’s the least sensationalist and the easiest TV fare to digest.

I’ll try to shut up about this now.

tinyfaery's avatar

I have time right now. Will do.

breedmitch's avatar

No, tinyfaery! Don’t look into his eyes! Look away! Look away!

kevbo's avatar

I’ve been turning this over for the last week or so and would like to add one more thing to the discussion. To the extent that one believes this is a conspiracy perpetrated by our government, take this awareness and use it to inform and revive your earnestness for making the world a better place and compassion in your relationships with yourself, the people you care about and those who are our enemies or who are made to seem like our enemies. Take your awareness of the tragic nature of this problem and turn it into deeper consciousness and care in your dealings with the world around you.

If at least, you can agree that we are perpetrating a war for control of oil resources, looting of the US Treasury, convenient dumping of depleted uranium, and artificially propping up the military-industrial complex, take that awareness and do the same.

Still having doubts? Here’s a whopper. On Sept 10, 2001, Rumsfeld announced that $2.3 trillion dollars (that’s $8,000 per US citizen) were missing from the Pentagon budget, which prompted him to declare a so called War on Waste. Source

allengreen's avatar

Yes, the terrorist have won. Who needs all those pesky civil liberties anyway?

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