General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

If I felt were born in the wrong body, that I am actually white stuck in a Black body, can I make cosmetic changes to appear white and be taken as white?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26821points) June 15th, 2015

Bruce Jenner says he is a woman but stuck in a male’s body, as well as the others who claim the same either female stuck in male or the other way around. It is being floated that if they dress in how they identify they should be accepted and treated as such whether they are Brandon Teena, Bruce Jenner, or others. If I woke up and decided I was really white, made changes to identify as while, people have the mandate to treat me as white because I believe I am, just in the wrong body?

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27 Answers

talljasperman's avatar

Micheal Jackson did so yes.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ He was never taken as white and rejected by many Blacks…..I would not use him as an all encompassing example.

Coloma's avatar

Come over here and I will choke you until you turn white. lol

tinyfaery's avatar

That’s called passing. It’s a huge part of AA history.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@tinyfaery That’s called passing.
There is a different between appearing while but not being and being taken as white, because they don’t know, and making myself look white, when it is clear I am not and expecting people to accept me as white because I created that look.

janbb's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Passing” was done by African Americans who looked white enough to purposely pass as white. It’s been done.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@janbb “Passing” was done by African Americans who looked white enough to purposely pass as white. It’s been done.
I know, I even know some who recently have “passed”, but those who know them we know they are not white, even though they may have so little Black in them as to be called true Black. “Passing” depends more on deception, not having those they interact with know the true, which is different than them knowing the truth but having them accept the truth you want them to have, telling them to accept what they know is not true.

janbb's avatar

^^ I think I understood that.

cookieman's avatar

I think if we “mandated” people treat each other kindly and with empathy the gender they identify with, or their sexuality, or their choice of religion would matter less and less. Maybe to the point where one wouldn’t bother to post a thinly-veiled, passive-aggressive question about it on a website such as this.

But yes. You could certainly make those cosmetic changes and request whatever you like. Please post pictures when you do.

Blondesjon's avatar

If you felt you were in the wrong body than either you or God have made a mistake.

Take that shit outside and hug it out.

Pandora's avatar

People do it all the time. They tan till they look like burnt toast and tease their hair or get perms and make their lips bigger and booty bigger.
And the opposite is true. People who straighten and dye their hair blond, wear color contacts, lighten their skin, and have plastic surgery to make their nose smaller and lips smaller and lipo the booty.

In both cases I don’t think it is that they feel they were born in the wrong skin but rather self loathing. Most people who are like this tend to loathe their race. Where as, in sex changes, they don’t loathe all the people of the sex they were born.

I knew a mexican woman who hated all things and people mexican, and the same for a white white woman and a black woman. I also knew a Puerto Rican guy who hated all latinos and wanted to be anything but a latino and a light skin black man who hated black people. They all tried to be someone they weren’t. Someone opposite to who they were born because they felt they were better understood or could understand the other races better.

They didn’t actually feel they were born in the wrong body, but rather they felt life was unfair by making them another race they despised.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Pandora I knew a mexican woman who hated all things and people mexican, and the same for a white white woman and a black woman.
If this woman you knew bleached her hair Blonde, put in blue or hazel contacts, and said she is really a white girl stuck in a Latina’s body and wanted to be seen and treated as if she is white, by job, school, government, etc. should everyone go along with it because she desires it? If she doesn’t have that right, why don’t she?

@Blondesjon If you felt you were in the wrong body than either you or God have made a mistake.
Take that shit outside and hug it out.
That is advice you have to give to Bruce, he is the one who feels he is in the wrong body, I have the body I am supposed to have.

kritiper's avatar

No, you can’t paint yourself over and be seen as white. Best to just act the part of the social rung you want to be included in and hope to be accepted by the majority of those there.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@kritiper No, you can’t paint yourself over and be seen as white.
But it isn’t simply about painting oneself Black or white, if the person truly felt God or nature got it wrong, and wanted to make corrections that they feel reflect who they ”really are”, and want to make everyone accept it, why can’t they if Bruce and others get to?

Silence04's avatar

What you are talking about very much exists, It’s called Body Dysmorphia. (Not to be confused with Gender Dysorphia/trans)

In regards to social acceptance, anyone that doesn’t fit in the “social norm” will have a hard time finding acceptance. It’s mostly reliant on how well the person can “pass” in a social setting.

Blackberry's avatar

Race is a social contruct, we’re all basically brainwashed to disapprove of races and cultures, but gender is different because their brains are wired differently.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Race is a social contruct, we’re all basically brainwashed to disapprove of races and cultures, but gender is different because their brains are wired differently.
There has been brainwashing (if you want to call it that) on the side of gender. Feminist came from the notion that it was better to be male, that somehow males had it better and had more, so they sought to lace in equalities by way of laws, but that is a different thing all together.

I can’t say those who have issues with what body they are born in as far as being in a body of the wrong sex are screwed in the mind, so to be even I can’t put that on those who feel they are in the right body sexually but the wrong race. To be completely even, even if forced by law, fundamentally there is no difference.

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Sure, I suppose so. You can be whatever you feel like you want to be but the genetics will still give you away as to what you were born as. You might get some people to see you as white, and others will see you as nothing more than a Oreo cookie, but you won’t get all of the people to see you as white all of the time.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@kritiper You can be whatever you feel like you want to be but the genetics will still give you away as to what you were born as.
As I said earlier, I am content with what God gave me. It was an illustrative point that if I chose to be white, why should I be denied? If I thought I was the wrong race (which I don’t), and went to make cosmetic or surgical changes to make me appear white and then expect everyone to accept it why could I not? If a person who is a man feels they are really a woman inside wants to have the hot dog roasted and sliced, and a non-working breadbox put in, if their bones were found by future archaeologist they would not say they found a woman, they would say they found a man. As you say, a person who feels they have a woman inside should not expect everyone to acknowledge the woman they try to be all of the time.

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I doubt you could change your hair texture, bone/skeletal construction/configuration/size, or muscle build. Like I said previously, you can make yourself up to be and talk yourself up to be whatever you want, but your genetics will give you away.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@kritiper I doubt you could change your hair texture, bone/skeletal construction/configuration/size, or muscle build.
Then why are people trying to do just that? If they are male, they can’t really change anything. It will just be a man’s face ”womanized”.

Like I said previously, you can make yourself up to be and talk yourself up to be whatever you want, but your genetics will give you away.
Again, isn’t that what people are attempting? A man would not have real wide child baring hips or milk producing mammary glands. The female parts he has would be factory made, imitations, thus he would end up with a counterfeit woman’s body, not anything genuine. As you say, slap whatever bondo on it, scallop the fenders it guts will still say what it is underneath.

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I don’t think you fully understand the structural makeup of a Negro as compared to a Caucasian. It isn’t just the face but the entire human body that is different. Total bone structure from head to foot. Muscle size and abundance (or lack thereof) differentials and their attachment points to the skeleton. I have an art book on the subject that details the differences to take note of when drawing either a Caucasian or Negro.
So, you see, to make a black look white would require a major bodily overhaul. For the people who cared to look closely enough, the evidence of what the person truly was, genetically, would still be there.
Why do they do it? They want to be the person they feel they really are and they want perfection. Pure ego!
A man born in a woman’s body can still feel like the woman she wants to be with all the plastic surgery adaptations in place and vise-versa.
But psychology becomes the primary aspect of the highest importance, rather than any secondarily exact physical appearance aspect, and it is this psychology that is the drive for change. I suppose what really matters after that is (and must be) “Who really wants/needs to know (the exact details)? This is me! Take it or leave it!”

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@kritiper I don’t think you fully understand the structural makeup of a Negro as compared to a Caucasian.
I would gander there is a closer relationship between a Black man and a white man then a man and a woman physically.

So, you see, to make a black look white would require a major bodily overhaul.
He slaps on a straight-haired wig, paint his skin white, put in blue contacts, then tell everyone he is white and he is making himself look like who he is supposed to be, and go along with it.

For the people who cared to look closely enough, the evidence of what the person truly was, genetically, would still be there.
EXACTLY, a man can ”womanize” his body all he wants but in the end, it is still a man’s body with woman parts bonded on, same for a woman trying to go man.

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central So, we are in agreement???

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ So, we are in agreement???
There are some points I agree with. If the point that you are who you were born no matter what you slap on or in the inside, you are still who you are born, then we are in agreement on that. Born Black, always Black, Born Chinese, always Chinese, born male, always male, etc. then we agree.

Silence04's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central
People that are transgender typically are born with a brain structure indicative of the opposite sex to their own. (eg MtF trans have the brain structure similar to that of a Female, FtM a male brain structure). This is where “trapped in the wrong body” comes from. Their brain is wired liked that of the opposite sex, instead of matching their own sex. This causes the person constant distress because they don’t they fit in the socally constructed norm of gender.

Similarly, race has its own specific attributes in the wiring of the brain. (And when I say “race” I’m talking about the phenotype) However, unlike gender, race isn’t a random variable in procreation. Race is entirely reliant on the parents of the offspring’s race. Therefore it’s impossible for someone of one race to have the brain wiring that’s indicative of another race. Which would make their motivation to change their race completely different than the reasons one would have to change their gender.

Trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges… Meanwhile the “apple” and the “orange” are both social constructs.

keobooks's avatar

I answered this in your other question that was basically the same question, but differently worded. while there are legally only 2 genders in the U.S. And most of the world, there have always been a very small but significant number of people who don’t fit neatly into one or the other. There have been thousands, if not millions, of people who for various reasons, their gender was either guessed by the OB doctor when they were born, or their genitalia was so ambiguous that their parents were allowed to choose what sex to put on the birth certificate. Legally, there are only two genders. You can’t legally be “both” or “neither” or even “other”. When the gender isn’t rock solid one or the other, someone guesses or chooses a gender for you. If she lived in Singapore, she might qualify as ‘third gender’ instead of female. But there is no legally recognized third gender. There’s male, female, and..”.I don’t know, pick one or the other”.. Gender ambiguity has always been resolved by selecting one gender or the other. It’s nothing new.

Aside from chromosomes and functioning female reproductive organs, Caitlin Jenner is female. Many women in America are legally born female and have male sex chromosomes. I wrote all about it in your other thread so you can read it there. Millions of women in America also don’t have functioning female reproductive organs. It’s a small percentage, but there are quite a few people who choose their gender or have their gender chosen for them based on how they look and feel. It’s not that unusual. Jenner is not trying to be or pretending to be a XX chromosome female with functioning reproductive organs. She’s simply claiming to be legally female. And there historically enough ambiguity about what being legally female actually means that she can ‘get away’ with it.

Race is very different. It’s not merely how you were born. It’s your history. It’s how you were raised and how other people perceive and react to you based on who they think you are.

Yes, you can change your skin and hair and ‘pass’ as another race. But skin and hair color is not race. You can’t change your personal history and culture you grew up in. Because that’s called lying. There is also a personal history and culture you grow up into being born female. But Jenner has never tried to do that. Jenner changed her legal gender. She didn’t try to change or lie about her past.

If Dolezal simply spray tanned and coiled her hair, but was honest about her personal history, it would be much easier to compare her to Jenner. If she had started out telling everyone she was born white but identified black, it would have been different. Would she have been ‘allowed’ to change race? We won’t ever really know because she never was honest, and my guess is that if she were honest and accepted, it never would have caused enough scandal to make the National news.

But she didn’t do that. She made up a huge web of lies and when she got caught, she just kept lying. She didn’t just try to look black and pass. She tried to pass herself off as being born black. If you have to lie and be deceitful about who you are in order change who you are, you aren’t going to be ‘allowed’ to continue on with the lies or pretend the lies never happened. You got caught lying. In order to be who you wanted to become, you had to lie and make up a fake life story.

You can change your gender without changing your past. Trans female isn’t the same as cis female. But it’s most certainly in that fuzzy area where many legal females who aren’t ‘totally female’ are. But you can NOT change your ethnicity without having to lie and cover up your past. Your history and culture growing up is a huge part of what your legal race is. In gender… Not so. It’s basically what you look like and people think you are.

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