Social Question

stanleybmanly's avatar

Is there any point to railing against abortion when the surest signpost to poverty is a single woman with children?

Asked by stanleybmanly (22356points) October 11th, 2016

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50 Answers

jca's avatar

Pro-lifers don’t care if you’re poor. They don’t care if the child is starving. They don’t care if there are no social programs and resources to support the child. They care only about the life that is in need of being saved.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Eh, it’s a bit complicated as it is well… peoples lives we are talking about poverty or not. If someone wants to give a woman grief for having an abortion in the first trimester then fuck you. If someone decides to have one in the third outside of medical complications well then fuck you too. I’m not religious but my view on abortion usually pisses off both extreme sides.

cinnamonk's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me I don’t think the second scenario you described really happens very often at all, and even if it does, then so what? A fetus is a part of a woman’s body until birth. If at any point in the pregnancy she decides she doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore than that’s her right (or should be).

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

It’s pretty rare but I’m not going to entertain the idea that a viable fetus that can survive on its own outside the womb is just a piece of meat and “part of a woman’s body.” At that point it is a human with rights that has an unfortunate dependency on a woman’s body.

cinnamonk's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me are you aware of pregnant women aborting viable fetuses? Is this something that happens?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@AnonymousAccount8 It’s rare and only a few states allow it. There are factions of abortion rights activists who have no problem with it though.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m pro-choice, and I feel the government shouldn’t be able to force a woman or man to sustain another life, but I’m fairly close to @ARE_you_kidding_me that once the fetus is viable all bets are off. If a baby is no longer parasitic on the mother, can be delivered and live on its own, or very few medical measures to sustain its life, and the life will be normal, then it is a separate living being, even if it is currently housed within the mother. The line I draw is probably a few weeks later in gestation than @ARE_you_kidding_me.

A percentage of “late term” abortions are done when the mother very much wants to be pregnant and wants her baby. Usually, there is something very wrong with the fetus, and I am in favor of those abortions, especially if the baby will not make it to term or not survive shortly after birth anyway. Let the mother abort so she can get pregnant again if she wants a baby.

Amnio and CVS and advanced sonogram imaging are done before the third trimester, so abortions should almost never need to be done in the last trimester.

I’m not sure I understand the question, I’m not sure I understand the lingo used. As far as poverty and abortion, pro-lifers aren’t concerned with things like economic status of a pregnant woman, except to say they don’t want their tax money paying for your baby. If you can’t afford your baby you should give it away. You should not have become pregnant in the first place if you’re single. SIN! Although, now you don’t hear the sun word anymore. Now you hear things like what a gift life is, and no babies are mistakes, and planned parenthood is trying to kill off the black race.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Maybe if the proliferation of single mothers is curbed there would be less kids and their mother being poor. To suggest that the murder of a developing human will keep some women from being poor is about as STUPID as saying the best way to curb crime is to give everyone a mansion and a Bentley; so utterly stupid it is beyond stupid…..

cinnamonk's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central actually, suggesting that abortion is equivalent to murder is what’s STUPID

JLeslie's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central It’s not stupid. Feeding another human being besides yourself costs money. The less money you need to spend on food and care for someone else, the more you can spend on yourself and save.

Once behind the 8 ball it’s hard to dig oneself out. Living check to check, or worse in constant debt means it can be likely the person might need to buy things on credit, and then everything they buy is more expensive than the retail. Some financial stability before having a baby can make a big difference. Some sort of cushion.

Especially, if a woman has a baby before finishing her education, it can stunt her earning potential.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@AnonymousAccount8 […actually, suggesting that abortion is equivalent to murder is what’s STUPID_*
Answer me this then, if you have enough moxie, I don’t want your spin, your BS, your duck, dodge and hide, all I need is a ”yes”, or a “no”.

• By the science you believe, are humans introduced to this world by females; yes or no?
• By the science you know does the developing human take over the body of the female like a cancer or virus; yes or no?
• By science as we know it, are developing humans designed to be expelled from the female at some point, usually around 9 months on average?
• Is the developing human tissue of the woman’s body like a lungs, kidney, etc. or separate from the female but needing to inhabit because that is the way of biology, yes or no
• If simply being able to breath on its own is the criteria for having a right to live, when a person can no longer do that on their own, regardless of how long they have been on this planet, they should lose their right to live; yes or no?

Here is the bonus question:
Show anywhere in human medical history where mere tissue would morph into a sapient and sentient entity (since some seem to place great weight to an entity that is able to be sentient and sapient) and left the body it was in to live on its own?

Better tabernacle with your Mensa level friends, I am interested to see how you try to intellectually spin it to fly that lead balloon.

@JLeslie It’s not stupid. Feeding another human being besides yourself costs money. The less money you need to spend on food and care for someone else, the more you can spend on yourself and save.
And when the 1% people think like that, they are vilified here on Fluther. They are doing the self-same action, if it is selfishness on their part, it is selfishness in the part of a single mother. By that reasoning if a woman is being floated by the state because she can’t even feed herself, the state should take her child from her and place it with a family who can take care and feed it. Oh, snap! That reasoning doesn’t sound very reasonable any more, does
it?

Especially, if a woman has a baby before finishing her education, it can stunt her earning potential.
Truly, whose fault is that? If she did not make sure she had a committed spouse before getting knocked up, whose fault is it? To take the fault off here and place it on another why not say the guy who never graduated because he smokes weed behind the gym instead of hitting the books it was someone else’s fault he missed out on an education.

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Seek's avatar

• By the science you believe, are humans introduced to this world by females; yes or no?

This question is nonsensical.

• By the science you know does the developing human take over the body of the female like a cancer or virus; yes or no?

No. It’s more akin to a parasite. Like a tapeworm. It attaches to the inner lining of the uterus and begins growing and feeding off the host body until it is mature enough to be born, or until the host body rejects the invasion and destroys it.

• By science as we know it, are developing humans designed to be expelled from the female at some point, usually around 9 months on average?

No. They are not designed at all.

• Is the developing human tissue of the woman’s body like a lungs, kidney, etc. or separate from the female but needing to inhabit because that is the way of biology, yes or no

This question is nonsensical. A fetus is not a necessary organ, and no one has ever called me a murderer for having my diseased gallbladder removed.

• If simply being able to breath on its own is the criteria for having a right to live, when a person can no longer do that on their own, regardless of how long they have been on this planet, they should lose their right to live; yes or no?

This question is nonsensical, and has nothing to do with fetuses or their host bodies.

cazzie's avatar

It’s all those single mother’s faults. They should be killed in those honour crimes he was talking about. Also, there is a correlation between poverty and crime, and you don’t give people houses to live in to break the cycle of poverty, you give them an education and birth control.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Also, there is a correlation between poverty and crime,...]
Only where greed runs rampant, there are many places in the 3rd world where they have way less than the poorest here and they do not try to rip each other off but to band together and help one another.

cazzie's avatar

Is the sky of your planet blue, too, @Hypocrisy_Central ?

stanleybmanly's avatar

But what possible plan to “curb the proliferation of single mothers” can possibly be more successful than the ONE which is guaranteed 100% effective. There’s nothing stupid about it and if the goal is simply to eliminate single mothers, there is NO solution more reliable or effective than abortion. It’s the SMART move HC.

cazzie's avatar

I suddenly became a single mother when my kid was 9. Sort of too late then, eh? Not all single mother’s are teenage high school drop-outs. Can we keep that in mind?

MollyMcGuire's avatar

Poverty doesn’t excuse murder. There is little to no poverty in America.

cazzie's avatar

Population 2 on that other planet.

MollyMcGuire's avatar

You can’t give anyone an education. You can offer it. We already offer it. Getting educated is work and takes effort.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie Who said they are? Plus, in studies people need to be careful to check the definition of single mother. Often single mother means when a child is born out of wedlock, you do not fit in that as far as I know. It depends on what data you are looking at.

@Hypocrisy_Central The Christians (including Catholics) talk about giving up babies more than anyone I know. They do it more than any group I know also. Just my personal experience.

cazzie's avatar

@MollyMcGuire what passes for ‘offered’ education in many parts of the US is a joke. And, yes, @JLeslie I am a single mother. Fortunately, I live in place that forces the father to at least contribute financially. In that way, I’m lucky, but we have many safety nets here. It’s about choices and not being punished for making those choices.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I’m just saying that the term single mother can be defined different ways. The Q is about poverty and single women with children. You weren’t single when you had your child. You are a divorced woman with a child for the purposes of the Q and many longitudinal studies. Although, it is true that at least in the US that all too often women struggle more financially after a divorce than men. I’m pretty sure we are agreeing.

The bit about teens having babies is just a statement that having a baby before finishing school can make things harder and can hamper the ability to earn and save money. It’s not a generalization that all single moms got pregnant at the age of 16, it’s a generalization that pregnancy at 16 makes things financially more difficult in many instances.

@Hypocrisy_Central Also, I want to add that I’ve never once heard of someone saying we should take a baby away from a poor person. What is said by some people is that poor people should think about finances before having another baby, just like the middle class does. That’s not saying all poor people don’t, and all middle class do, it’s just saying when someone poor has 5 kids a lot of people do judge it.

cazzie's avatar

Becoming a single parent at any time can plunge a women and her child into poverty. Having a safety net for women raising children is ESSENTIAL in any civilised society. If there is no safety net and if there is no access to birth control or abortion then the idea of ‘Choice’ is just an illusion.

ucme's avatar

My mother became a single parent when she divorced my father, we were very far from poverty & a damn sight better off with that loser prick out the way…hoorah!!

cazzie's avatar

@ucme Not always the case. Not often the case, actually. Women often have to weigh up putting up with an abusive partner to standing in line at the welfare office with their hand out, only to be told they have to work a job or two and somehow find childcare for their kid (s). Not valuing the job mothers do lessens a society.

ucme's avatar

@cazzie Oh i’m more than aware of that & have always been super grateful for the life we had growing up & how we all turned out, my mam is fucking amazing!!
I was in no way referencing your post, just answering the question in my own honest way.

cazzie's avatar

@ucme I appreciate you sharing. It’s great to hear your stories. A big cheers to your mum!

ucme's avatar

Cheers, I shall pass your kind words on, she will be thrilled & may even suggest a shopping trip :D

cazzie's avatar

As long as she brings one of her servants to carry all our bags. giggle

ucme's avatar

Hee-hee

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’ve known several women that got pregnant while on various types of birth control. All pregnancies aren’t the result of careless sexual practices.

Abortion is the lesser of two evils sometimes. I can see how some would view it as selfish. But I think it is the right choice in many circumstances. And it is a choice. A very difficult one,I would think.

Without abortion, the world would be even shittier. There are too many people already. Quality of life needs to be considered. Sometimes having the child is like giving the child a life sentence of misery.

grego's avatar

Abortion has been legal since 1973. In 1973, the rate of single parenthood was at 12% and the poverty rate in 1973 was at 10%. In 2015, the rate of single parenthood rose to 40% and the poverty rate in 2015 rose to 14%.

These numbers clearly demonstrate that railing against abortion has no impact at all on poverty or single parenting. .

JLeslie's avatar

^^Single parenthood is more influenced by cultural shifts than abortion. In years past there was an expectation to give up your baby or marry the boy who knocked you up. Now, almost no one expects to get married just because they are pregnant.

MrGrimm888's avatar

There are many reasons why women get abortions.

Being a single mother is really hard, but it’s been/being done by many women. I don’t see just being a single mother as an accurate barometer of poverty. Plenty of single mothers get good educations, and/or jobs, and are doing fine(much respect.) Obviously there are some that are struggling too.

As @JLeslie opined, I think there has been a cultural change that is a major variable in the numbers you listed @grego .

Therefore, to me, this invalidates a correlation between single parent rates, and poverty rates.

At least enough for me , it’s not that black, and white.

Welcome to Fluther.

grego's avatar

50% of all marriages in America end in divorce.

80% of all single parents are single mothers. Half are divorced and the remainder are widowed and never married.

The poverty rate of a single mother in the 1990s was 47%. In 2000, single motherhood poverty dropped to 34% and in 2010 the poverty rate for single mothers rose to 42%. Similarly with single fathers.

The poverty rate for married couples remained under 10% from 1990 till 2010.

JLeslie's avatar

^^So? First of all, almost 70% of first marriages stay married. Secondly, the poor have incentives to not be married the way I understand it, so our social systems encourage not getting married.

Some subcultures among our poor think being an unwed parent is very normal. So, if it’s part of their norm there is no reason to try to avoid it.

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Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@JLeslie That’s not saying all poor people don’t, and all middle class do, it’s just saying when someone poor has 5 kids a lot of people do judge it
Facts are facts no matter how repugnant one thinks of them. If a woman has 5 kids from different fathers, or five children from the same man who never helps or supports, she was the ultimate gatekeeper, or I guess she was lousy at being the gatekeeper so now she wants to make up by being the innkeeper. In the first incident if she cannot learn after baby daddy #2, then she is rather obtuse, or dimwitted. It is like a person who after been burned still think they can grab the skillet by the edge off of the fire and not get burned. In the latter version if she keeps going back to the same baby daddy who never helps and gets on her back for him yet again, she is even less than dimwitted.

JLeslie's avatar

^^What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? It sounds like you are pretty judgmental yourself. You named 1%ers above, but you are the one here saying it’s the woman’s problem for being stupid. What if she isn’t stupid? What if she just doesn’t believe in birth control? What if she wanted all the babies? I actually wasn’t even thinking unwed mother when I wrote about the 5 children, although I know that is the Q, because people are critical of 5 kids whether married or not, especially if the family has serious financial troubles.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@grego . You left out the financial crash in 2008. Surely a major contributor to the rise in poverty rates for single mothers you mentioned in 2010. Couples weathered that storm with less difficulty due to dual income.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central . Women are people. Imperfect as we all are. Some women are manipulated by pillow talk. Have you never lied to a female to have sex with her? I don’t do it anymore, but when I was in my teens to my 20’s that was how I thought you were supposed to act. I’ve heard women say a man told her he loved her, and wanted to be with her forever. Then days, or months later they find out the guy was just a lying piece of shit. Unfortunately, it’s a little late then ,once pregnant.

Some women’s biggest mistake is trusting, and loving a loser.I’ve personally dated a shitty girl once for 4 years off and on. It’s human nature to want to believe that the person you love is telling you the truth,and their actions and intentions are genuine.

If you never trust anyone, you’re going to be alone in this world. Unfortunately, most people let us down, and betray that trust.

I’m aware there are women who make very poor decisions when it comes to men. And their children end up suffering as a result. But they ,like many bad apples, ruin the buch. The majority of single mothers aren’t sexually indiscriminate. It’s easy to see the fat lady with six bad behaving kids at Walmart , and think negatively about her judgment. She just draws more attention than the mother with the quiet baby on her hip.

Much in the way Islamic extremists garner more attention than the millions of peaceful, normal Muslims.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Are you saying women risk getting pregnant because they believe a man loves them? I thought for sure you would say the guy lied and said he would pull out, had a vasectomy, or was sterile. Or, maybe that he just persuaded her to risk it.

cazzie's avatar

headdesk and then goes over and hugs @MrGrimm888 We deserve choices.

Seek's avatar

Any or all of those things may have happened.

Can we please stop with the looking for who to blame for abortions?

Abortions happen because they are wanted and necessary.

This is not a new phenomenon. There was a plant in Roman times used as an abortifacient. It was so popular it appeared on currency and was used to extinction.

Sometimes people don’t want to be pregnant. And that’s OK.

cazzie's avatar

Ladies and gentlemen, do you need any more proof that @Hypocrisy_Central is a mycologist… like…. his picture is there when you open the dictionary.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie . I’m saying some women,sometimes have sex with men after being deceived. Pregnancy happens as a result.
Abortion is then one of their only options. Promiscuity isn’t the only reason women are single mothers, or have abortions.

And I was really just addressing @Hypocrisy_Central .

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