Social Question

MrGrimm888's avatar

What punishment, should a person who groped someone receive?

Asked by MrGrimm888 (14229points) November 13th, 2017

If it was one instance, not multiple times.

Fine?

Prison?

Should it be a system with levels? (Touching a butt isn’t as bad as genitals…)

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

50 Answers

elbanditoroso's avatar

I think that AT&T bears some of the blame for groping. For years, they had the advertisement “Read Out and Touch Someone”, which may have tacitly implied that unwanted touching was an acceptable thing to do. It’s subtle, but then advertising usually is.

As to your question about penalties – you’re jumping too fast into the details. In a different question last night, someone asked “what is abuse? what is unwanted touching? What constitutes harassment?”.

That’s the fundamental issue – definition. One woman may define harassment one way, and another woman another way. There is no consistent definition of any of these terms.

The law can’t be built on squishy standards. If we’re going to put people in jail for touching, then the law need to know what touching is allowed and not allowed. Because if society doesn’t have legal standards, then what we have is, essentially, no law at all.

So before we start getting into penalties, let’s try and classify the offenses in some cogent and consistent way.

Muad_Dib's avatar

A swift beat-down by every able-bodied person in the general vicinity. Save the real victim the indignity of the court system and teach the asshole a lesson they won’t forget.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Muad_Dib – so, mob justice is OK? Scary. Does that go for other offenses too?

LostInParadise's avatar

Whatever the punishment for assault is

kritiper's avatar

A fine, like a traffic ticket, for each instance.

marinelife's avatar

Actually, whatever the punishment for battery is.

Zaku's avatar

Groping (and similar acts) attempt to take power away from the target. I think that ideally they should lead to an escalation of power for the target over the offender, which the target may choose to excuse or demand repairs for.

For example, how restraining orders work, but more effective and without the needed paperwork. If someone gropes you, you should be allowed to demand that they stop and leave you alone. If they persist or otherwise do it in a way that is clearly a violation, you should be allowed to use force to stop them, and call for assistance of others who may also use force.

Fines are also appropriate, and should probably go to the target rather than state coffers. Repeat offenses should have stronger penalties, including jail and reeducation, with escalating consequences if they revert.

Etc.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Shortly after leaving bootcamp, I was in the chow hall one day for lunch. Just as I reached the line, some marine walked by and grabbed my butt without changing stride. Being always cocked and ready, I spun around like I was doing a roundhouse, except instead of a kick, I put the force behind my empty tray upside his head.
That DID change his stride.
He wobbled, turned, and apologized, as cheers rose up for my having put him in his place.
Being groped is crippling to the victim’s morale.
Public humiliation for the grabber, coupled with physical pain should be acceptable.
It worked for me.
Nobody grabbed anything in that chow line again with me around, except food.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

The perpetrator should pay money to the victim for the ‘embarassment’ that he/she has caused (as in accordance to the newly created law pertaining to this issue). Consider it as social fine. This way groping might become more consensual. Wanna grope me? 50$ for 1 minute. Lol

johnpowell's avatar

A member here killed himself for getting busted with some weed in his sock. He did six months in a jail in Tennessee and then was on probation and was unable to leave leave the state. He was in a bad place and unable to legally leave so he got depressed and killed himself.

This was over a bag of weed that is totally legal in a few states. He moved from Oregon to Tennessee. Had he done the same thing in Oregon totes legal.

A gram of weed in a sock cost someone their life. Someone that many of you have probably interacted with but didn’t notice since he just vanished due to suicide.

So groping. Perhaps the punishment should be a bit more harsh then a gram of weed in your sock.

You certainly shouldn’t be getting my taxes to pay for your seat on the Senate.

cheebdragon's avatar

Can’t be solved with a single solution since everyone is different. Something that could deeply traumatize 1 person could be nothing more than an experience to laugh about later in life because you kicked someone in the balls for getting handsy. It depends entirely on the personality of the person being groped I think.

Muad_Dib's avatar

Yes, I completely support mob justice in the case of sexual assault.

Hell, I can even provide Biblical support for it.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

Female here. There were at least two men fired at the company where I worked for sexual harassment. One was a regional manager who liked to kiss the women on the lips that he visited. The other was a VP that gave weird “checking you out” glances while talking.

I never reported either of them. In hindsight, I would have told them to back off. I don’t care what your title is…my physical body is not something for you to to take advantage of.

Let them be fired from their jobs.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@cheebdragon . I agree that the instances mean different things, to different people. Isn’t that more about deciding to press charges though?

Assault is illegal. I’ve been punched in the face plenty, but usually don’t press charges.

This thread is about what punishment should be levied against a “groper.” Not so much about the “gropee’s” feelings on the matter.

In other words, what should the laws be.

kritiper's avatar

A statute of limitations should be a matter so that no person be fired or punished for certain happenstances (up to a point) that occurred years before.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I disagree 100%. Many victims of sexual harassment don’t come forward. Some get the courage, or for whatever reason eventually do come forward.

Just because it happened a long time ago, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Such a statute, could even empower sexual predators.

These are our daughters, sisters, wives, children etc. They need/deserve protection.

Patty_Melt's avatar

While working in a bakery I had the owner come up behind me, put his arm around me, ooops, instead of patting my shoulder guess what he got. I jumped, real fast. My elbow came back sharp, hard, yes on purpose. Good solid sternum hit. There was no air in his lungs a while. My baker gave me a knowing wink from across the way. Nothing was said on the matter, ever. Rabbi never, ever sneaked up behind me again, nor touch me.
He got his. This bakery was Rabbi’s last chance, his final shot with the community. They had helped him with two businesses prior, which had failed.
Baker and I (I was his cake decorator) walked out without notice together.
For women who don’t have those defenses at their convenience, there should certainly be recourse.
It is tough though, because I have seen women use false accusations as a weapon.

kritiper's avatar

@MrGrimm888 100%?? So someone who might even ogle at some woman momentarily, groping her with his eyes, and she takes offense to it, should serve the same punishment as some full-on all over physical man-handler? Sounds so harsh…

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I may have misspoke somewhere. No. No penalty for looking. Just for unsolicited/unwanted physical contact.

snowberry's avatar

@kritiper @MrGrimm888 I was in the Army reserve for three years. Army fatigues are about the most ugly and shapeless garments imaginable, yet I could not count the times in those three years that men undressed me with their eyes. It was humiliating and infuriating, but I could do nothing about it. It’s one of the reasons why I left the Army.

But looking back on it I’m having some fun imagining the kind of retribution I might visit upon those knuckleheads if I had the chance.

kritiper's avatar

@snowberry Men are sexually driven creatures. It’s what makes us tick. Looking does no harm, although it can be uncomfortable to be the lookee. If I look/ogle, I try not to be obvious about it. But we’re all meat.

snowberry's avatar

No worries @kritiper I’ll just include you in my imaginative retribution chamber. We’ll start you off with bread and water for 30 days to get you ready.

Muad_Dib's avatar

@kritiper – Looking and leering are very different things.

If you have any concerns about your ability to distinguish the difference, try this helpful method

snowberry's avatar

LOL Thank you @Muad_Dib! For certain numskulls uh, men, this article will be extremely helpful. I hope they read it like an instruction manual.

Muad_Dib's avatar

Indeed.

All living animals are sexually driven creatures. That’s why we exist as a species. However, the existence of our prefrontal cortex should at minimum allow one to shut off the lizard brain long enough to make it through a business meeting without embarrassing oneself.

Plenty of us go through life having perfectly professional relationships with attractive humans without drooling on our own feet. It should not be that hard.

kritiper's avatar

@Muad_Dib I have no concerns on the subject. I always treat women with respect.
Women may also be sexually driven creatures, but when compared to men, they don’t even come close enough to mention!
@snowberry Better include ALL men, even the ones in your family.
@Muad_Dib and @snowberry If some women didn’t like being leered at, then why do so many of them show so much tit all the time??? Even the ones who don’t have cleavage worthy of showing are laying it out there to be gawked at.

snowberry's avatar

I scrolled down below that article and read some of the comments. This one is absolutely beautiful. https://medium.com/@rsdan9/hey-christopher-you-nailed-something-super-critical-that-everyone-seems-to-forget-e31b19c5d16b

@kritiper I have never purposely shown my tits- anywhere. I don’t enjoy that kind of an introduction to a relationship. And as I mentioned before, I was in army fatigues when I got leered at. Read there were no tits showing! it sounds like you are defending those guys too. Were you one of them?!?

Furthermore hubby doesn’t want me showing any cleavage because he knows there are brain-dead idiots just like my Army “friends” out there who cannot figure out what appropriate boundaries are, and they apparently have no self-control as well. I am inclined to agree with him.

As for the men in my family- hubby has mentioned to me various tactics he takes to avoid looking down a waitress’ cleavage for example. He looks at his menu, at her face, etc. and he successfully gets through the conversation without embarrassing himself. He’s really good at it and he says it’s not hard to learn to do.

Maybe you want to take a second look at that link @Muad_Dib posted. It sounds like you would benefit from the advice.

kritiper's avatar

@snowberry You sound like a prude who doesn’t like any man looking at you (or any other female) in any way. Maybe you haven’t shown off your breasts but you are in bad company with all of the others who are, and that’s not my fault.
You think I need advice of some sort? I guess you didn’t read my previous posts on the subject of the respect I show to and for women.

snowberry's avatar

Oh. You had me fooled for a while there. I thought you were defending Weinstein.

Thanks for the insult. I’ll add that to my profile page. Cheers!

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

They should be shackled and locked up with their victims free to do what they want to them. Maybe for and hour or two.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@kritiper . Maybe you could aquire a nice dark pair of sunglasses. The ones that are practically a mirror would work best. Then, you can look at whatever. You can still get busted, but it’s harder.

Inspired_2write's avatar

Therapy for both the groper and the victim.
And separation from the same location…groper sent away for intensive counselling to find out why they feel that they need to control women or others to feel secure. These gropers are insecure in themselves and therefore seek power over another.
Somewhere in their lifetime they felt powerless so they end up being controlling.

snowberry's avatar

Part of leering is enjoying watching your victim squirm (it’s also passive aggressive).. Sunglasses would minimize that effect. I’m all for sunglasses worn indoors by leerers. It would also make them easy for the leeree to spot (and avoid). A win for all concerned!

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@kritiper Maybe what you consider harmless is; perhaps it puts some women on edge. If I understand correctly, you are saying that it is a natural action of men, or at least those who are heterosexual. If that is the case, then I beg to differ. I’ve worked and socially affiliated with enough men who have never shown signs of sexually harassing a woman. Those that have are in the minority.

MrGrimm888's avatar

“Leering”, to me, is not in the same category as harassment. Not even close.

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm888 what would you call it when a man undresses a woman he doesn’t know with his eyes?

I can tell you what it’s like for the woman. It’s not at all comfortable. It makes her feel unsafe, scared, and angry.

I’m certain, under some circumstances that this would qualify as sexual harassment.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I’m sorry. I don’t see it that way. Maybe all of the groping I’ve endured throughout the years has blunted my thinking.

I do know that more than once, I’ve had a girl get mad at me for staring at her, for me to explain that I was watching the game behind her. Some girls are ridiculous about it.

I find the notion that I have to divert my eyes, as if a girl is passing royalty, to be pretty stupid.

I guess it just seems completely harmless, to me. Something that I suppose females should get over.

snowberry's avatar

I agree thaose women were taking it too far. Their radar is too finely tuned.

But the leer I experienced wasn’t at all like that. He started with eye contact, then he slowly looked me over with a smirk. It was flat out creepy.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Perhaps leering is generally viewed by men and women differently. As a female, leering can be intimidating. Will calling the leering guy out jeopardise our safety, our job? These are the thoughts that cross my mind before deciding how to act. I can recall years, decades later the times that a male leered at me, and I’m still a bit creeped out at the situations.

I suspect that men who are ogled by women process it differently.

Muad_Dib's avatar

Grimm – I’ve read your groping story several times, and while you were unquestionably affected by it, it sounds to me that in no way was your life or safety in danger.

Again, there is a difference between looking and leering. You wanna take a quick mental picture, window shopping, whatever. No problem.

Turning into a bug-eyed wolf from a Merrie Melodies saloon sketch is predatory behavior. It’s not “just looking”, it’s lascivious – intended to let the victim know they’re being viewed and thought of sexually, and that there’s nothing they can do about it. And when you’re at a physical disadvantage to the person demonstrating this “power”, it can be thoroughly horrifying.

I’m immediately reminded of the time my high school English teacher kept me talking at his desk a bit too long for comfort, before reaching to my neck and pulling my necklace out from under my shirt.

That guy was fucking creepy.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I have never felt physically threatened by females groping me, that’s true. I have worried about my job though. Just last night, the wife of an affluent venue owner stopped by me and introduced me to her aunt. They then proceeded to stroke my beard, and caress my arms and chest. The older aunt lifted up my shirt, commenting on my tattoos. I felt like a slave at the market. I just stood there, as I wouldn’t dare insult the women. I don’t need counseling over it, but it was highly inappropriate.What if two men did that to a younger woman? I’m sure it happens. But here is a gleaming example of a double standard in society, and how people (not just men) take advantage of their roles in society.

I have learned that my sex drive is higher than average. So I’m not speaking for all men here. Personally, when I see an attractive female, I am powerfully drawn to them. Sometimes, I just have to stare. If I get busted, I look away, but that’s the extent of my self control. I am just being honest. Hopefully this doesn’t make me a sexual predator in some eyes.

I can see the point brought up about eye contact, and the apparently deliberate “eye rape.” That’s valid, and understandable. I had a large gay man do this to me once. I simply glared back at him, and was ready to knock his teeth down his throat if he got too close. I guess women, in most cases, don’t have that option.

I say, if possible, get loud about “leerers.” I know a lot of female bartenders that are great at calling guys out.

Bottom line is the world’s full of assholes, I guess…

snowberry's avatar

@MrGrimm Agreed. Predators come in either sex, and can look like anyone. A predator will use whatever resources they have at hand to do what they want to do.

I would be revolted by just watching them do what they did to you. Will you accept my apology? You would certainly never get it from them.

As an afterthought I wonder if these women were bullies as children.

—I imagined for a few minutes what would have happened if I had glared back at the guy who “eye-raped” me. He probably would’ve taken it as encouragement!—

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I file it under “it is, what it is.” No apologies necessary. Those ladies I mentioned are very nice. They just take liberties sometimes, I guess…

Yeah. The “eye rapist” definitely seemed to get off on the fact that I did not reciprocate. His habit almost put him in the hospital. I wouldn’t have hurt him for looking, but he seemed like he was considering approaching me, and trying something.

snowberry's avatar

Grimm- Not nice in my book. That kind of people will take advantage of any situation if given the desire and opportunity. They are predators, and will do it, or something equally as treacherous if given a chance.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You’re right, of course. Maybe I’ve become desensitized. I guess I meant that I wouldn’t want those ladies to go to jail over it, or something. I have to admit, I don’t want to see some of the celebrity gropers (like Louis C.K.) receive harsh punishment.

I just don’t want people grabbing me, and what not. I mean, without permission, or desire.

The thing that gets me is, I have never felt like I was very attractive. I am not a classically, good looking guy. I’m not Orlando Bloom, or Leonardo Dicaprio. I’m big, and muscular, but I always have had a pretty low opinion of myself. I don’t know if the unwanted attention means that I am desirable. I just know that I don’t understand females. When I am nice to them, they seem less interested. I am just lost, trying to figure women out….

snowberry's avatar

Gotcha. But rest assured that I’d find these “ladies” just as unpredictable as you do. Please don’t assume all women are like those two.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Ha! Unpredictable, will not change. I don’t assume that all women are like that either. But I assume power will offer certain levels of corruption to both genders… I will loosely refer to it, as human nature…

Inspired_2write's avatar

Leer: meaning
Cast a suggestive or malicious look.
Simple way to deflect is just to walk away, turn away from their glare.
This shows that one does not appreciate nor show attraction to them.
Could be a rudimentary way for some insecure men to attract attention sexually.
There are many “How to attract women” advice online that are not acceptable to most decent women.

kritiper's avatar

I stand by my prior posts. Some men do have class and don’t let their eyes linger too long, or be obvious about it, which is acceptable.
Anyone who has groped should be also groped by an undesirable. Turnaround is fair play!

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