Social Question

Demosthenes's avatar

Would you advise someone to not resist arrest to avoid being shot by police?

Asked by Demosthenes (10328points) 1 month ago

A common argument in response to these police shootings is that these men should’ve followed police instructions and stopped resisting arrest if they didn’t want to be killed. Now, non-compliance alone is not justification for the use of lethal force, but it can be justification for the use of non-lethal force, and non-compliance may lead to situations where the police think you’re a threat (e.g. reaching for a weapon) and thus you may increase your chances of being killed by not doing what the police are telling you to do.

Is “comply or die” valid advice?

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103 Answers

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Whenever I have had to deal with the Police I find it way better to treat them like God,obey all their directions, and if warranted file a complaint later.
But then I am a middle aged big white man.

Blackberry's avatar

Philando Castille complied with all orders and was still shot.
You could tell the guy (the cop) was young and probably scared and definitely inexperienced, and this is why people are getting upset.

There’s a more recent video of a black male fighting the police to run away and he steals their taser. It’s like fine, if you need a “win” for the boys in blue….If you’re racist you can justify shooting him in the back…because he had a taser….

But Philando legitimately did not do anything wrong.
If a cop wants to kill you it’s gonna happen and you have to just deal with it.

zenvelo's avatar

It’s more like, “comply, and maybe die.” Breonna Taylor never had a chance to comply.

Others were short or choked to death despite complying.

filmfann's avatar

My last interaction with the police included an officer drawing his gun on me. I wasn’t wearing my glasses, so I notice, and didn’t stopp approaching him.
I have no illusions that, had I been black, he would have shot me.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“Don’t drive while BLACK !”

Sorry but it looks like the cops are calling open season on people of color !

stanleybmanly's avatar

Of course I would advise any and everyone not to resist arrest. Clearly, that is not always a guarantee that those so advised will survive the encounter.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

If I was arrested I would pass out and soil myself.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Unfortunately, you have to comply with a LEO’s orders. Otherwise, you risk your life.

I am still a part time LEO. But. I am a large man (typically much bigger than another LEO. )

If pulled over, I comply with every order. I almost always end up cuffed, and in the back of a squad car. But. I do everything I can, to be cooperative. I know that they are scared of me, and I don’t give them a reason to kill me. I’m typically armed, so I tell them that immediately.

My appearance, makes most officers nervous. So. I am very cooperative, and try to be as least intimidating, as possible.

I’d be lying if I said, it isn’t right. But. When they have a gun drawn on me, I am “yes sir, no sir.”

Being a LEO, myself, I get it.

Stay as still, as possible, and keep your hands out of your pockets . And make no sudden movements.

Typically, being compliant, will go a long way.

Darth_Algar's avatar

“Is “comply or die” valid advice?”

If you like authoritarianism.

jca2's avatar

I have never been arrested but I would comply.

Complying is not a guarantee you would remain safe but doing the opposite, fighting with the cops, is a sure way to get tackled or worse.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@Demosthenes: “Is “comply or die” valid advice?”

No.

Like @Blackberry mentioned, there are plenty of cases, like in Philando’s case, where it’s “comply and die”.

Additionally, we shouldn’t allow racist authoritarians to frame the issue of state violence and oppression against its own population. Sure, there are those who use so-called “non-compliance” as a justification for the state murdering and terrorizing people. But people who use this justification are wrong. Period. And we shouldn’t give their reasoning any more thought.

The issue of so-called compliance vs non-compliance is also very much downstream of the real issues involved in policing and racist violence. The very laws and norms that these terrorist forces (police, “justice” system, etc) are enforcing are themselves immoral and must be challenged. This also makes so-called “compliance” nearly impossible to achieve, and death/injustice a like outcome.

ragingloli's avatar

You know, it is funny that you have to treat encounters with the pigs, like you are being robbed at gunpoint by a mobster, or are being cornered by a rapist (“just lie back, and think of England”).

KNOWITALL's avatar

Yes just obey the law and dont give them a reason to even look your way.

janbb's avatar

@KNOWITALL That worked really well for Breonna Taylor who was asleep in her bed. Or Jacob Blake who was trying to bust up a fight and then getting back in his car when the police came because he thought they would stop it.

canidmajor's avatar

I’m a middle-aged white lady. I could walk around with an assault weapon and be perfectly safe.

gondwanalon's avatar

Don’t act like a fool and threaten any man with a gun.

Darth_Algar's avatar

^^^Unless you’re a white teenager who went out at night, broke curfew in multiple jurisdictions, crossed state lines with a gun you could not legally possess and then shot multiple people. Then you get to waltz past police, go home and sleep soundly in your own bed.

canidmajor's avatar

@gondwanalon, if your post was directed to me, read @Darth_Algar‘s post. It is what I was talking about.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I was once stopped by the police, for the first time in 20 years, for going 27 in a 20. I had my 11 year old son with me. The officer waited until we were stopped at a stop light, then suddenly hit lights and sires right behind me. Scared the shit out of me.
I pulled over. He got out of his car and sidled along side of my car with his hand on the butt of his gun, like he had just pulled over Bonnie and Clyde instead of a 38 year old mother who had just been shopping for her son’s upcoming Boyscout camping trip.
I know now, if I had been a black male, I probably would have been shot, by that trigger happy asshole.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@janbb Why are you pointing that out to me specifically? Four other people replied about complying before me.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Because you said, “Yes just obey the law and dont give them a reason to even look your way.”
In response, immediately after your post, @janbb pointed out ”That worked really well for Breonna Taylor who was asleep in her bed. ”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Being involved in a domestic and your ex calling in you weren’t supposed to be there is ‘giving them a reason to look your way’ to me. Sad that it ended as it did. Obviously there is no defense in Breonna’s case, she did nothing wrong.

chyna's avatar

Don’t forget Botham Jean. He was in his OWN apartment eating ice cream, watching TV when a cop came in and killed him. For no reason.
Edited to add: Even if the latest victim of getting shot by a cop, Jacob Blake, was non compliant, he still should never have been shot 7 times in the back.

janbb's avatar

And Tamir Rice was a 12 year old in a park playing with a toy gun. And Philando Castile was getting out his license with his GF and her baby daughter in the car. The list goes on and on…..

If I were a Black parent, I would be terrified every time my children went out into the street..

Dutchess_III's avatar

Being involved in a domestic and your ex calling in you weren’t supposed to be there is ‘giving them a reason to look your way’ to me.” I don’t know what you’re talking about @KNOWITALL.

si3tech's avatar

My advice to anyone about to be arrested is not to resist.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Where is the reason for lethal force? ?

Did he threaten the officer ? ? – - NO

Hope the cop gets tossed, I mean empty a clip into someones back is indefensible !!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical Read the article. Apparently a lot happened before the video.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

Read your own article. That article did not state that Mr. Blake was the ex-boyfriend, and in fact, stated that Mr. Blake was attempting to break up the domestic incident.

chyna's avatar

@KNOWITALL Nothing happened that warranted 7 shots in his back. Nothing. What a chicken shit way to detain a suspect.

hmmmmmm's avatar

O

^ This is a circle containing everything that led up to Blake’s shooting by police. One thing that we can know for sure is that whatever – and I do mean whatever – is contained in that circle can never be used to justify a cop attempting to kill an unarmed man by shooting him in the back 7 times.

Any discussion of possible justification is immoral.

chyna's avatar

@hmmmm just a reminder that the guy did not die. He is, however, paralyzed from the waist down at this time.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@chyna – Thanks, I had typed a very broad generalization about cop shootings, then quickly changed it to Blake and never changed the details. Thanks for the heads reminder.

kritiper's avatar

I would advise people to do whatever the nice policeman tells you to do.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Darth What happened off camera is a guess. Did he stand down once cops arrived? Apparently taser was deployed, etc… So I’m guessing, based on the video he did not. My advice stands.

No even having a knife on the drivers side doesnt justify all those shots.

kritiper's avatar

(It is truly shocking that so many people who carry guns don’t know how to
properly use/play with
them.*
*As in following the rules of proper gunplay.)

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL You cannot really mean it is okay to shoot a black man the back !

Tell it is okay to unload a clip into a black not something about “off camera” !

gondwanalon's avatar

@Darth_Algar if a white teenager had a violent record, outstanding warrant, resisted arrest and reached for an unidentifiable weapon in the dark then that white teenager can expect a very outcome.

@canidmajor Not referring to anyone. More power to you.

kritiper's avatar

Self defense cannot be claimed if the person who was shot was shot in the back. That is murder, plain and simple.

Demosthenes's avatar

I mean, of course the cops are going to say they feared for their lives because that’s the only legal grounds upon which they can shoot someone like this. I don’t think most cops are bloodthirsty killers hoping for a reason to pull that trigger, but some may be. I guess that’s for a court to determine.

Re. the original question, I am all about being practical. It’s unfortunate that we have to deal with cops like we’re being robbed at gunpoint by a mobster, but that seems to be the case. There’s a lot that needs to change, but until that changes, I’d advise against resisting and making it look like you’re going for a weapon or in the case of Rayshard Brooks, actually grabbing a weapon.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Never said that, but I wasn’t there.

LadyMarissa's avatar

I had a friend who was stopped by the cops. He was standing behind his car answering the cops’ Q’s. One of them asked to see his Drivers License, so he reached into his back pocket to get his wallet in order to comply. One of the cops fired a shot at him, missing him & striking his passenger (who was calmly sitting in the car as he was told to do) in the head immediately killing the passenger. Compliance doesn’t always help!!!

Friend’s grandfather was driving home when stopped by the cops. He was 85 & crippled. He had a habit of tossing his cane into the back of his truck when getting in the truck so it couldn’t slide under the gas pedal. When he got out of the truck to speak with the officer he instinctively reached into the truck bed to get his cane. The officer shot & killed him before he could get his hand on the cane. He wasn’t arguing with the cop & the cop admitted that he screwed up, but it didn’t bring back that grandfather!!!

janbb's avatar

I guess what I’d really do is advise someone to not be Black to avoid being shot by the police!

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

Three months ago, a former co-worker called the police at ~3am to report a domestic dispute. Police arrived and found the couple in their back yard. The husband (another co-worker) had a pistol in each hand. The police told him to drop the guns. When he refused, the police shot him. The husband died and the wife was taken away in an ambulance due to freaking out.

My guess is that he was drunk, based upon personal experience. Frankly, his morals weren’t the best, also based upon personal experience. With that said, I’m sorry to hear that Brian is dead for those left behind who did care for him.

seawulf575's avatar

If you are in a situation where the cops are stressed, resisting them or ignoring them isn’t going to help the situation. You are better off going along with them and then dealing with anything you felt was wrong later on. I got pulled over one day. My wife was in the car with me, we had the car on cruise control set at the speed limit. We got pulled over the the officer that pulled us over came out with attitude and aggression. I responded with patience and calm. She claimed I was doing 60 in a 45 which I knew to be false. I think she clocked the guy that was zooming past me when she came into sight up ahead (when he hit his brakes hard). I told her I wanted to see the radar reading that said I was doing 60 since I had the car on cruise and had a witness to the fact we were doing the speed limit. When she told me to get out of the car she asked me if I had any knives or weapons. I told her I had a tiny pocket knife and started to reach for it. She grabbed for her gun and told me to get my hands out of my pocket. I did, slowly. We managed to get through the stop and then I told her I wanted her name and badge number and the name of her supervisor. I told her that her performance on this stop was unprofessional, that she was grossly aggressive, and that I was going to have a chat with her boss about it. She started sticking her hip at me saying “keep talking! I’m recording this whole thing!” I told her that was good because then her boss could pull up the recordings and see that everything I had to say was 100% accurate. I called her boss a little later and related our encounter, including that she recorded the entire thing that he could listen to, and asked him if he felt that was appropriate behavior for one of his officers. He said it didn’t sound good. I had the option of filing a complaint or letting him deal with her. I let him deal with her. But the point is, that as much of an asshole the officer was at the time, I didn’t get in her face or ignore her, but took my complaints to the appropriate channels. I could have filed a complaint if I had wanted to and that could have started an official investigation. There are ways to deal with these situations.

chyna's avatar

@seawulf575 My guess is that you are white. If you were a Black man, it could’ve gone horribly wrong.

ragingloli's avatar

“I can smell weed, get out of the car!”
Then she conveniently “finds” a bag of meth when she “searches” your car.

longgone's avatar

No. I believe this idea is part of the problem, for a few reasons:

1) It discounts the fact that there are all sorts of people who can’t obey. This includes those who don’t speak the country’s language, citizens with mental health conditions, and those with physical issues (hard of hearing, mobility constraints, etc.)

2) It ignores basic human neurobiology. In a nutshell: when we are sufficiently afraid, our brains bypass the logic centers and go straight to primal panic mode. Rational thought is impossible, and our good intentions go flying out the window.

3) It empowers police officers to demand and expect a disproportionate level of disobedience, legitimising their violence in response to hesitation or (even slight) deviation.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Deliberately fighting, yelling and arguing with police is just stupid.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Part of the problem is training.
When approaching a subject, you are supposed to have your hand, on your side arm. If you are in training, they will fail you, just for that.

As for shooting someone, multiple times, that’s also part of the training.

Most of the firearms training, is designed to ensure that the LEO, survives. It doesn’t focus on the well being, of the subject of interest.

I disagree with the statement that most LEOs, are “blood thirsty killers.”

However. There are definitely some, who are itching, to kill.

One of my fellow officers, was involved in a shootout. He, and another officer, engaged a guy, who fired at them, when they arrived at a house, with an armed man. Both officers, had AR-15s. And they returned fire, killing the subject.
One of the officers, told me the story.
They had to wait a few days, for ballistics, to find out which officer fired the fatal shots.
It turned out, that the officer I knew, had killed the man.
He said, he hoped it was him.
He was proud, that it actually was his weapon.
I guess they had to shoot him. But. It sickened me, that he was happy to have been the killer…

I used to be armed. But. I never wanted to shoot anyone. That thought process, actually got me in trouble, a few times. I usually just fought everyone.

I have dozens, of scars, and stab wounds. But. I just couldn’t shoot anybody…
I guess, that made me a bad LEO….In some ways….

I carry a .40 Cal Berretta. I’m a decent shot. But. I just don’t want to kill someone.
I’ve sent plenty of men, to the ER, with just my hands. And even that, bothers me…

I just do bouncing now.

But. Being an armed LEO, is a terrible job.

It’s super dangerous. And, it forces you, to be (what I would call,) a bad human being…..

Yes. Being forced to comply, is shitty. But. That’s what the job calls for.

Non-compliance, means you have to be an asshole…..

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm So like I asked before on Rayshards death, why so many shots? Because of the knife or the previous skirmish or ? Is Seven shots normal??

jca2's avatar

Have any of you ever seen this Arizona shooting, where the cop shoots the guy even though he complied? Warning, very graphic:

https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/ex-cop-acquitted-in-fatal-shooting-of-unarmed-man-at-hotel/

SEKA's avatar

@chyna You’re right, he didn’t die and he is paralyzed from the waist down. He’s also handcuffed to his bed. Yet the kid who murdered the others wasn’t ever stopped and was told to take his gun and go home

SEKA's avatar

They shot him 7 times while he was in his car with his 3 children in the back seat. I’m surprised that one of his kids didn’t get shot. Had he had a gun with the kids in the car, they would have been taken away from him and put the kids in a foster home and he’d have been charged with child abuse. I can’t imagine what those 3 boys are going through right now

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL “What happened off camera is a guess. Did he stand down once cops arrived? Apparently taser was deployed, etc… So I’m guessing, based on the video he did not. My advice stands.”

None of which has any relation to my particular reply to you.

jca2's avatar

Since the guy is now paralyzed (maybe paralyzed for life), the city will be paying a huge lawsuit because of that cop’s stupidity.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@jca2

As they should.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . Sadly, yes. Most LEOs, are taught to put multiple shots, on the target. That decreases the chance of the subject firing back. Increasing the chance, that the officer survives.

Another variable, is that some officers panic. Some, actually do fear for their own life. And you don’t know if a subject, is reaching for a weapon. Typically, an officer, knows little, to nothing, about a subject, or their state of mind. A subject may have multiple warrents, and has been incarcerated before. That subject, may be willing to do anything to avoid going back to prison. Including, killing someone to stay free.

That’s a big issue.
You get called to a scene, or pull someone over. But. You have little information. Often times, there isn’t a “correct” action…

When I have been a bouncer, I have been sucker punched, stabbed, and shot at…

I stay in a position to possibly hurt someone. And I don’t let people, put their hands, in their pockets. However. People have a habit of putting their hands in their pockets, when nervous.

I rely on information. For instance, if a person has a watch on their left arm, they could have a knife, in their right pocket.
I also judge body language. A person’s stance, will tell me, which hand they are likely to try to hit me with.
If I am bouncing, I will put my foot, on their foot. That reduces the risk of a sucker punch. Because they can hit me, but I’ll have them in a phone booth. I don’t want a fight. But. If I have to, I’ll be on top of them.
Which means that I won’t have to chase them down…Then, there is little reason to have to use a weapon, on them. I put them on the ground, and cuff them.

IMO. The officers, who use weapons, are in the wrong proffesion.

I tell all my men, we use our wits, and then our mitts. In that order. I consider using our hands, as a mistake, on our part.

You should think about, “what went wrong?” If you had to use force, on someone.

Sometimes, it’s unavoidable.

But. We are to protect, and serve. Not be bullies, or killers.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I am in the not so rare opinion , that there are too many people who shouldn’t be LEOs.
They are not properly trained, too afraid to do their job, or too resilient, to use lethal force.

But. Your training, is to respond violently, if a subject, doesn’t comply with your authority.

Failure of compliance, means resort to violence. Regardless, of the circumstances….

I do not condone, this ideology. However. I have used it, dozens of times.
It’s one of the reasons, that I only do it, part time now.

And, I only do that, because I have to pay my bills….

I hate myself, for having to do it…
If you haven’t had to do it, you really don’t understand, anything about it….

It’s a thankless job, that could easily get you murdered, or charged with murder, or any number of violent acts….

Being a LEO, is Hell….

You live, or you die, or you end up in court.

Sorry to tell you, not everyone is an innocent person.

And,not every officer, makes the *right * decision.

It’s all a ,free for all.

Terrible mistakes, are made.

And. Lifesaving incidents, occur.

It’s a pile, of chaos.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Chris Rock, I think, said that there are some professions simply can’t have bad apples anywhere. That would be police officers. I would also mention doctors and nurses.

janbb's avatar

@Dutchess_III I agree with you but I think it was Chris Rock who said it. I also think in many cases it’s the whole system of policing that’s rotten not just bad apples. The kenosha police force being Exhibit A at the moment.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I corrected. Thanks.

jca2's avatar

Chris Rock did say it in his recent comedy special (filmed in Brooklyn NY). He said some professions can’t have bad apples, like pilots for example.

seawulf575's avatar

I guess I have a bit of a perspective issue with some of the answers. It seems as if the automatic belief is that the police are always assholes and the people they interact with are always blessed angels. When you step back and look at reality, you find a different story. In fact, let’s get deep into the weeds here for a moment. The US population is roughly 331,000,000. As of June 3rd, there have been (according to Mapping Police Violence) 83 deaths of unarmed people at the hands of police. Now that doesn’t differentiate some people that were armed with toy guns, BB guns, air soft guns, or other things like this that the police could reasonably mistake for a real gun. These people are still considered “unarmed”, so that number is actually higher than reality. It also includes both blacks and whites. But that’s okay, it makes the point even better. So 83 deaths out of a population of roughly 258,000,000 which come out to be 0.00003% of the population. Meanwhile, there is another side of this equation that bears looking at. So far in 2020, there have been 35 police that have been killed either by gunshots or by vehicular homicide. There are 800,000 police in the US. So the number killed by the “innocent angels” is 0.004% of the police population…more than 100x the ratio of those killed by police. You are 100x more likely to be killed by being shot of run over if you are a police officer than if you are a civilian.
Let that sink in a moment. Think about how combative the radical left and BLM has made society against police and then think about how the cops are supposed to react when they stop someone or are asked to intervene in a violent situation. So when they tell a person to get on the ground or to put their hands behind their backs or some other such order and that person instead ignores them or makes a grab for something, what are we really expecting the police to do? Are we really expecting them to wait until they are shot or stabbed before we say it is okay to react like they are about to be shot or stabbed? Is that really reasonable?

zenvelo's avatar

^^^^^^^ One death of an unarmed person at the hands of the police is too many. The police have no business using deadly force so readily. The numbers for every other peaceful democracy in the world do not approach those of the United States.

Disarm and defund the police.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo So how many deaths of police at the hands of a violent criminal is too many?

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 One. But it isn’t a war, and even in a war civilians are not to be shot.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I agree that even one, wrongful killing, is too many.
But. It is a grey area.

Not all deaths, caused by LEOs, are even done, with a weapon.

I’ve probably told this story, before. But. I’ll tell it again.

One night, one of my guys (fellow LEO,) killed a man. The officer, was bouncing, at a strip club. Long story short, a man charged the door. He had already been kicked out. But. He decided to try to run back, into the club. As he tried to run in, a fellow LEO, pushed him down. The subject fell backwards, and ended up hitting his head, on the ground. The subject died, of his head injury.
Did he deserve to die, because of his actions? No….
Did the LEO, want to kill the man? No…

But. The subject charged a bigger man, and died.
The subject, was intoxicated. He made a poor decision.
The LEO, was charged with manslaughter. To my knowledge, he is still in prison, and has been, for over four years…

The incident, happened in seconds.

The LEO, was known to be aggressive. However. I know he didn’t want to kill the subject.
He just wanted to keep the subject out.

So. Within seconds, an unarmed man, was dead. It’s just that simple.
The LEO, who killed him, was not a blood thirsty killer. But. Things played out, as they did…

He had a few seconds, to make a decision, and he accidentally killed a man…

I know that there are bad LEOs, out there. And that sucks.

But. It could just as easily, been me, sitting in prison.

Or. I could also be dead…

There is no knowing, if you will die, when your shift begins.

I don’t condone, the actions of some LEOs. But. It’s impossible to explain, to someone who isn’t.

The worst part of the whole thing, is most people, don’t like LEOs, until they need them…...

SQUEEKY2's avatar

People are supposed to be OK with the unarmed people killed by police because after it is relatively low and it’s a hard job?
Wulfie I think you are missing the point that if you’re a black person you have a greater chance at getting shot by police than the average white guy,that is what people are so pissed off about.
With your obsession for facts how about you show us how many unarmed white guys are killed by the cops in your country and compare that number to the unarmed black guys killed.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

The police do have a very hard job, and the cry to defund them is beyond stupid, I think better training is needed,like wellness checks should be done by a social worker not a cop.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@SQUEEKY2

That’s actually a big part of what “defund the police” is about. Police departments are overfunded. Police don’t need millions , for example, to purchase military toys. Take some of that funding and put it towards social services instead.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I am not against that at all!^^ These fright wingers make it sound like defunding is totally getting rid of the Police.
We do need the cops, but they have to be accountable for their actions,hence better training.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 The entire narrative that if you are a black person you have a greater chance of getting shot by police is a slanted view of statistics. The story goes that blacks are only 13% of the population but are incarcerated and killed at a much higher percentage than that. That entirely ignores the other part of the story. Yes, blacks are 13% of the population, but they commit 53% of the murders. They commit 29% of the rapes. They commit 54% of the robberies. 34% of aggravated assaults. 29% of the burglaries. 32% of the car theft. In just about category of crime, they are committing more than 13% of the crimes. So while the claim that they are more likely (than whites) to get incarcerated or killed by police is true compared to the overall population of blacks, you also have to look at the fact that they are more likely to commit crimes than whites, by population.
As for what the “fright wingers” are making it sound like, I give you Portland OR and Seattle WA as examples of what the left wingers are ACTUALLY suggesting. Taking over big chunks of a city and forcing the cops out. And the one mayor said it could be the summer of love. Meanwhile, murders, rapes, beatings, thefts, etc all happened with no one to respond to them. THAT is what the left is really talking about when they want to defund the police…get rid of them altogether and let the inmates run the asylum.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo So only one cop is too many getting killed. So where is your outrage at the violent leftists that have killed the 35 cops so far this year? And you say it is not a war. So when someone calls in a crime just to ambush the cops, that’s sane, normal actions? No…those are the actions of a war. Until this entire discussion about the violence of cops includes the situations we put them into every day, it is nothing but politically motivated crap.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

” So where is your outrage at the violent leftists that have killed the 35 cops so far this year” @seawulf575 source please especially part about leftists !

Gang-bangers and drug dealers shooting back maybe, but need your source.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Ya got to remember @Tropical_Willie Fright wingers are all peace and love, defend cops shooting unarmed black people, scream the left want to totally do away with the police, let the poor just die because they can’t afford medical care that the fright wingers want to take away.
Yeah I can’t understand why everyone isn’t a fright winger,oh yeah and spread fear as much as you can even if most isn’t true.
And remember cops are justified shooting unarmed black people because after all black people commit most of the crime.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Sooo…you are just trying to dodge anything that doesn’t support your slim view of things. Got it. Don’t try to actually defend your views, just try repeating them to someone that is just as narrow minded as yourself. That’s all I need to see to know you KNOW you are wrong.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie You really need to see proof the lefties plan ambushes? Okay.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/tampa-officers-injured-hundreds-ambush-police-video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpkrGxEXHr0

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-officers-shot-responding-call-maryland-72560348

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/dallas-police-ambush/protests-spawn-cities-across-u-s-over-police-shootings-black-n605686

The list goes on and on. But the real point I was making…that you purposely try to avoid…is that the divisive condition your precious Dems have nurtured against the cops in this country has put all cops at more risk than ever before.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Your first one gives no hint what their political persuasion is. They could be conservatives. Conservatives are more prone to violence than Democrats. At any rate, it doesn’t specify so we can throw that one out.

Your second source, same thing.

_NONE _ of your sources suggest that it was right or left politically.

And THAT is why you never provide sources. You get left with egg on your face.

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 If you are worried about cops getting killed in ambushes, why don’t you advocate for disarming the general population? Outlaw the assault weapons used against police!

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III Look at all the riots, looting, taking over of cities, etc and try telling me again…with a straight face…that conservatives are more prone to violence than leftists.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo How about having the Democrats denounce the violence? Gee…isn’t that what they scream about with Trump…that he doesn’t denounce the radical righties? Even though he does and they don’t want to admit it, that is. Name one time that the Democrats have actually called for law and order and a stop to the riots and violence. They don’t do it. So when the “leaders” of the left don’t denounce it they send the message loud and clear that they support it.

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 Quit spreading lies and false information. “Name one time…”: Here is an example just from a couple days ago:

Biden, Harris condemn violent protests

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Careful @zenvelo Wulfie will just claim you’re nothing but a hater, after all it’s the Rep/cons that are all peace and love.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Oh And @seawulf575 how am I trying to dodge anything?
I condemn the violence in the riots as much as Police violence against unarmed black people that you seem to think is justified because after all Blacks do the most amount of crime in your country.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo Ahh…I stand corrected. Someone FINALLY said they don’t support violence. But they came only after the GOP convention called them out for supporting such stuff. And they really didn’t call for peace, they tried using it as a slam on President Trump…you know…the one that has been calling for a halt to all the rioting and looting? Meanwhile, let’s go back in time a little. Biden called the violent protesters from the left at Charlottesville VA “Courageous Americans”. He didn’t condemn them at all. His own website posted a link for donations to bail out any of the rioters/looters that were arrested in Minneapolis. Want me to keep going? Got anything prior to August 27th where they denounced the violence?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 I have stated numerous times that shooting unarmed people for no reason is reprehensible. These cops should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law…if the claims are true. Yet you want to claim black people are “targeted” by cops yet fail to mention their propensity for criminal activity…a propensity that suddenly matches the interactions they have with police.

janbb's avatar

It’s clear that you think any protest = violence and looting so there;s really no point carrying on with your bullshit wulfie!

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb Nice try, dearie. I support peaceful protest 100%, even if I don’t agree with it. I may say I think it is a bullshit thing to protest, but that is my right to free speech as well. But if you look, all my comments involve the violence, the rioting, the lawlessness, the mob rule. Apparently you can’t see that sort of stuff going on or you support it 100%. So really there is no point in carrying on with your bullshit, penguin.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . . I don’t think that you, or a large number of white conservatives, are bad people.
I don’t disagree with your statistics.
However. I think that you are not looking into some variables.
Desperate times, result in desperate actions.

Statistics, also show, that people of color, have a harder time finding lucrative work, and higher education.
Statistics prove, that just having a “black” sounding name, reduce their chances of getting accepted to colleges, or high paying jobs, as their equally qualified white counterparts.

With that inequality, it’s likely to deduce, that a higher amount will turn to illegal activities, to make ends meet.
Bills, need to be paid…

In addition, the majority of the crimes you list, are against other people of color.

It’s worth mentioning that people of color, have higher conviction rates, due to lack of diversity of jurors.

Assuming that you are white, how do you think you would fare, if you were being tried for a crime, and only one of the 12 jurors, where white?...

And. What if most, or all of the officers involved in your arrest, were minorities?
Minorities, who are afraid of you?

You are missing, a LOT, of the big picture…

Reading most of your provided statistics, is it not unsafe to presume, you have a preconditioned mindset, on people of color?

Your statistics, seem to surmise, that you already think, it’s likely that a person of color, probably committed whatever crime, that you as a juror, think it’s likely that the person committed whatever crime, they are being accused of…

If I was black, I would not want you to be one of my jurors, of “peers.”

Because you aren’t my “peer.”

Before you even hear any evidence, you seem to think that I probably did, whatever I am on trial for…

With all due respect, you don’t sound impartial…

And THAT, is why people like you, get a bad rap. You set yourself up, as being biased.

IMO, as a LEO, who works with subjects, of ALL races, I think there are good and bad people.
And, I have not had worse experiences, with ANY specific race…

Just my opinion….

SQUEEKY2's avatar

10,0000 GA’s for that answer^^^^^^^^^^^ .

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 ”.... Biden called the violent protesters from the left at Charlottesville VA “Courageous Americans”

Um, I think you are misremembering things. It was White Supremacists that caused violence in Charlottesville, a white supremacist that drove a car into a crowd of peaceful counter demonstrators and killed girl.

And Trump lauded the White Supremacists, saying, “there are good people on both sides”. And he encouraged right wing violence in Portland calling them “Patriots”.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 We could dig deeper too. What about the blacks turning to gangs and drugs and crime rather than pursuing education? That happens much more than the blacks being unable to get a good education. And the days of getting passed over for education or jobs because you are black are really long gone. In fact, there are more opportunities for minorities than for whites. Example: Two good friends of my daughter graduated HS at the exact same time. Both were straight A students. Both qualified for the same scholarship to the same school. But then one of them got another scholarship on top of it because her last name was Rodriguez. The other girl with the last name of White was not offered that scholarship.
You mention the crimes I list are mainly against other people of color. This is true. But they are still crimes, right? Just because you are black and kill another black person doesn’t make it okay. It is still a crime. That is where the entire BLM narrative falls apart, as does the claim that blacks are disproportionately charged with crimes compared to their percentage of the population. Here’s a concept: if they didn’t commit 30%, 40%, in some cases 50% of the crimes, they wouldn’t be arrested and convicted. If they only committed 13% of the crimes, (proportionate to the population) they couldn’t be charged/convicted with more.
And the “jury of your peers” is a cop out. It starts with the assumption that all white people are racists and devolves from there. I assumes that all white people would gladly convict a black person regardless of the evidence. It is a bogus narrative. If you were black, I’m EXACTLY the kind of person you should want on your jury…if you are innocent. I question everything. I don’t take things at face value. If the prosecutor makes a claim but can’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, to me it is a garbage claim. And if all the prosecutor had was a claim that you were in the area and are black, that isn’t enough for me. On the flip side of that, if the evidence points out you are guilty, I have no qualms about voting that way. Your skin color will not supersede the evidence…you don’t get a free pass because of it, just as you don’t get an automatic conviction because of it.
And you have to be honest: I get a lot of crap because I’m a conservative…period. It has nothing to do with the statistics I posted. I posted them to point out the bogus claim that blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate than their percentage of the population. I didn’t make up the statistics…they come from the FBI. I didn’t commit the crimes, I didn’t urge anyone to commit the crimes, I didn’t sit on any of the juries…these were all done outside of my sphere of influence. So what you are saying is that “people like me get a bad rap” for reporting the truth. You might want to think about that one for a moment. What it says is that people that give me a bad rap don’t like it when anyone gives an alternate opinion to the one they want. That is totalitarianism. It is Fascism. Is that what you are really trying to say? Because what it SOUNDS like you are saying is that I should just shut up and go along so people would be okay with what I say.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo No, I am remembering 100% correctly. It is YOU that are misremembering. Let’s review. Some people got a permit to protest the removal of a statue of Gen. Lee. At some point idiots from some WS and Neo-Nazi groups showed up to “help”. Then, in march (without a permit) a group of BLM and Antifa who had been at another protest, armed with clubs and shields and other things that showed they were not there for a peaceful demonstration. Of course the two groups collided and in the end Heather Heyer was killed. Now to the absolute lie you are spreading. President Trump did not call the WS “good people”. What he said, if you really cared to look, is that there were two protests that started and both were peaceful…that there were some very fine people on both sides. But in this exchange you can see he denounces the WS and Neo-Nazis several times. He calls the guy that ran his car into the crowd a murderer. But because it doesn’t help the narrative of the left, they continue to repeat over and over that he called them “very fine people”. And fools take that and run with it. As for Biden, in the video announcing his presidential bid, he started off talking about Charlottesville. He went on about the WS and the Neo-Nazis and how horrible they were. He then says “they were met by a group of courageous Americans”. That group was Antifa and BLM. They were responsible for at least half the problem at Charlottesville that day. Had they not shown up, the protest to keep the statue would have ended and everything would have gone back to normal. Instead, they created the strife. Of the two of them…President Trump and Joe Biden…only one of them is actually being honest about what went on that day. And it isn’t Joe Biden. He even repeated the exact same debunked lie you just did.

zenvelo's avatar

The latest is, if you drop a weapon and move away from it that is grounds and justification for being shot to death.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . My comments, about minority on minority crimes, were not intended to justify the crimes. I intended to clarify, that minorities, are not seeking out white people, to commit crimes against. Which seems to be the view of many conservatives.

In addition. Your constant defense of Trump, and constant attacking of Obama, Clinton, and Biden, contradict, your claim that you judge people solely on facts. That is where you come across as anything, but impartial.
As for your implications that race is no longer an issue, in the US. I strongly disagree…

Dutchess_III's avatar

From your link @zenvelo “When deputies tried to stop the man, he dropped his bike and ran. When they caught up to him he punched one of them in the face and dropped a bundle of clothes he was carrying.”

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Dutchess_III

Yeah, I’m not sure we can really take a police officer at his word. Especially one from the LAPD.

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