General Question

syz's avatar

How far will the Catholic Church fall?

Asked by syz (35649points) May 20th, 2009

So, after all of the allegations of pedophilia here in the U.S., now I see this story. Do you think the church will survive?

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64 Answers

RareDenver's avatar

All the way to the fiery depths of Hell

wundayatta's avatar

It’ll survive. It hasn’t been around for 2000 years without knowing a thing or two about survival.

eponymoushipster's avatar

catholic church is full of fail.

EDIT:

it hasn’t been around for 2000 years. It’s a contrivance. One of the things that has led to this is the supposed requirement of celibacy. That’s bs. If Peter, who is supposed to be the first Pope, had a mother-in-law (Matthew 8:14), logic dictates he had a wife. So, if Peter, who Jesus chose, to whom he gave the keys of the Kingdom, had a wife, where does this requirement come from?

Other people.

Catholic Church fail.

cookieman's avatar

To survive they will need to evolve.

but then, they would need to believe in that first

elijah's avatar

As long as people blindly support it, it will never fall. It is a corrupt machine. There’s a lot of good people who are catholic, but the higher ups are disgusting.

tinyfaery's avatar

Until the last pope, which I believe is two after the current pope. At least according to some, based on the visions at Fatima.

jrpowell's avatar

2012 will take care of everything.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

this is not news
they’ve always been terrible

GoPhillies's avatar

Yes the church will survive. These allegations are against man, not god. Man is not perfect, and will never be. No matter how holy you are you can still sin and make mistakes. God is unwavering and divine so your trust in him to do right and good is nothing but perfect.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@GoPhillies but the Church, and the Pope in specific, claim to be representatives of God on Earth. In doing such things, they throw doubt on Him and His Name.

If they truly were acting in God’s behalf, would He not take action against them?

GoPhillies's avatar

To some extent I agree with you. I am a Roman Catholic. However I rarely attend church, and think that the Pope and other “representatives” of are only men of god, used to spread the message of his greatness. However, when they step the boundaries, from disciple of God, to dictator of the Catholic Religion they are proving my point that no man is perfect, but God’s message of right and wrong is. Pope or not, everyone makes mistakes. I’m not saying that these mistakes are just, but they are what they are. However the Pope is a great tool to keep the religion organized.

TROLL's avatar

I was Catholic educated in the UK and although not sexually abused i was beaten on a regular basis as were many others.
Religion is for idiots!why else would you blindly follow something that has offered no proof of it’s so-called god.
All religion is based on a fear of the unknown and that fear is drummed into you in the form of violence.
Luckily i ran a mile when my brain told me this was wrong.

syz's avatar

This was was intended as a legitimate question. Let’s please not sink into a nasty debate.

RareDenver's avatar

@GoPhillies “God is unwavering and divine so your trust in him to do right and good is nothing but perfect.”

Whence cometh evil?

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341–270

GoPhillies's avatar

@TROLL When you say something like that it is so immature and ignorant, that it seems you are the one that is afraid. Religion is not just an answer for the unknown. For people like me it is a foundation of what is right and wrong. People look into the belief of God too much. He is not a man up in the sky. He/It is the goodness in all of us. That humans continue to do good for others every day. So next time you want to say something try not to sound like a 4 year old.

GoPhillies's avatar

@RareDenver Please read my last post. I don’t were in the bible you found that text. It is just words, but God is actions, emotions, and love.

wundayatta's avatar

Religious organizations are not about the people in them. They are about maintaining the power of the organization. Just as banks and car companies are surviving bankruptcy, the Catholic Church will survive by cutting out the sickness, and moving on.

They could, of course, change their minds about homosexuality, but there’s nothing they can do about abuse except banish those who committed that atrocity. As I said, you don’t stay in existence for 2000 years without learning a thing or two about longevity. This organization will survive. It won’t fall far.

RareDenver's avatar

@daloon Change their minds about homosexuality? As in say it’s okay?

spresto's avatar

Its to bad all the people that live by a different moral code or scientific theory never do anything wrong. I think its safe to say that those darn catholics truly are human and that denying their nature human urges has put a lot of sexual frustration and sin into their hearts. Man it is a good thing they believe in Christ, because what they believe in is forgiveness for the evil they do…because they are human…not a robot…like the rest of the world; who never does anything wrong. Yeah.

syz's avatar

No one is claiming that everyone else is without sin. Far from it. That’s a fatuous response. But when the Church covers up such an extensive list of truly heinous crimes, it is particularly disturbing.

spresto's avatar

Very true. They should be completely open.

RareDenver's avatar

@spresto I’m a little confused by your answer, I don’t think the issue is the individuals behavious (as reprehensible as it is) but more that church officials encouraged ritual beatings and consistently shielded their orders’ paedophiles from arrest amid a “culture of self-serving secrecy”.

spresto's avatar

Well the church is not Christ, thankfully. They may say they represent the living God, but Christ specifically forbade violence.

RareDenver's avatar

@spresto

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”
Leviticus 20:13

Where does that fit then?

Response moderated
RareDenver's avatar

It might be old testament but the last time I picked up a Christian bible it was there

spresto's avatar

Yeah, but that doesn’t mean Christ said to use violence now does it?

Response moderated
Response moderated
eponymoushipster's avatar

@spresto Regarding homosexuality, 1 Corinthians 6:9–11 says that “men who lie with men” will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It’s not purely in the “Old Testament”.

as regards circumcision, that was a sign of entering into a covenant with God. Not a sacrifice.

in modern times, it’s proven that circumcision is good for the prevention of disease and such.

RareDenver's avatar

@spresto

So are you saying Christians need a new bible?

Response moderated
spresto's avatar

@RareDenver I have no idea where you got that. Troll.

Response moderated
spresto's avatar

@eponymoushipster What does that have to do with violence. I don’t care about homosexuality. Cry me a river if you do.

oratio's avatar

@RareDenver I have been asking myself that. Thomas Jefferson made an interesting attempt. The bible just isn’t web 2.0.

spresto's avatar

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean unloading your anger on me will make it change, ladies. (bows graciously and walks away)

RareDenver's avatar

@spresto

Well if Christians ultimately follow Christ and the Holy Trinity, and the Christian Bible has passages in it that you believe are at odds with Christ’s teachings then surely you must think the Christian Bible needs revising?

wundayatta's avatar

@RareDenver If they chose to, they could change their minds about homosexuality. Perhaps they will in a century or two. How long did they hold out against Gallileo’s theory?

augustlan's avatar

[Mod says] Personal attacks and off-topic chatter removed.

RareDenver's avatar

@daloon

Surely though if they changed their minds about homosexuality, and remember the bible is quite clear on that, then are they not just treating their religion like a pick and mix stall at the cinema. Taking the bits they like (chunky fudge) and leaving the bits they don’t like (fizzy cola bottles).

Is that really the way the Church can or should behave?

GoPhillies's avatar

@RareDenver I understand what you mean when you say if the change one thing what will stop them from changing another. But the bible was not writting by Jesus Christ nor God. The bible was written from interpretations of Jesus’ teachings. With that said, it is a new age, and basing a whole organization on the idealogy of thousands of years ago is very primative and narrow. Another point to be made is the credibility of Jesus’ diciples. That is just a thought. My personal take on homosexuality is that it is Love, nothing different from a man and women, and God teaches Love.

TROLL's avatar

@GoPhillies did those teachings of “love“spread to the Catholic Church in Ireland?

RareDenver's avatar

@GoPhillies

This is the fundamental problem I have with organised religion, it appears to me you either have “fundamentalists” those that adhere to the letter their religion and associated texts demand or you have “moderates” those that choose the bits they feel sit well with their own morals.

In a nutshell psycho’s or hypocrites!

GoPhillies's avatar

@TROLL I understand that you had a bad encounter with the teachings of religion. I’m sorry, that you had to go through that. However man/humans tried to teach you using violence and that is not right. You need to try you best and forgive those who hurt you, because that is not what God wants. God is love. Love on such an extreme level that nothing can take it away from you. Im sorry that you have been jaded by humans trying to teach you God’s love.

GoPhillies's avatar

@GoPhillies I can see where you have a problem. I am not promoting organized religion. I am just defending that fact that not all is bad. As you said many are hypocrities and psychos, about how far they have strayed from the true messages of God. I reside with the Roman Cathloic Religion. However I strongly believe in the words of Abraham Lincoln when he stated “When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion.” So I do encourage people to learn about a religion, but make love your foudation.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@spresto i said that because you found fault with another commenter quoting the “Old Testament”.

TROLL's avatar

Poppycock!

Dansedescygnes's avatar

I am a Catholic, for the record. A gay Catholic.

For me, the Catholic Church is simply a vehicle for worship and one I happen to like more than that of Protestants. It was created my humans, by men, and it is not perfect.

Linda_Owl's avatar

If the world is lucky, it will fall completely into oblivion.

oratio's avatar

@Dansedescygnes A question of curiousity. Would you be welcome in the church and receive the Holy Communion as an open gay? When I studied in catholic bible studies to become a catholic, their veiw on sex and homosexuality was what made me walk away.

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@oratio

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, homosexual sex is a sin. That comes from the Bible and is no different than any other Christian religion. Likewise, according to the Catechism, simply being gay is not a sin. It’s the act that is the sin; it says that homosexuals are called to chastity. So yes, you can receive the holy Communion.

wundayatta's avatar

@RareDenver wrote:

“Surely though if they changed their minds about homosexuality, and remember the bible is quite clear on that, then are they not just treating their religion like a pick and mix stall at the cinema. Taking the bits they like (chunky fudge) and leaving the bits they don’t like (fizzy cola bottles).”

“Is that really the way the Church can or should behave?”

I’ll make no judgment on how “the Church” should behave. Or maybe I will. Frankly, that’s exactly how the Church should behave. Of course, they’ll try not to be seen to be behaving that way. It’s amazing what you can do with rhetoric.

I think I’m not stating very clearly what my approach is to this topic. I am speaking purely as a scholar of institutions. I am looking at what makes institutions last. Sure, symbols have something to do with it, but that is a very small part, I think. What makes institutions last is a very effective bureacracy.

The bureacracy is effective whether or not there is some argument about doctrine. Doctrine is symbolic and a source for policy, but neither symbol, nor policy are what keep institutions going.

The US government has been going for several centuries and it’s policies and doctrine have changed back and forth many times. The Church, too, has changed doctrine and policy many times. The issue of homosexuality is merely a blip on the radar screen, compared to all the activities and history of the Church.

I think people often mistake rhetoric for reality. Especially when it is rhetoric about moral ideology. Frankly, I think it makes more sense to see arguments over interpretations of scripture as entertainment, than as something serious. Sure, people take it very seriously, but that doesn’t mean it’s serious.

I don’t know what makes the Church so strong and able to resist efforts to supplant it. I’m pretty sure it has little to do with interpretations of the Bible. They will change their interpretation if it becomes necessary to do so. They will find a way to make it appear as if they were saying the same thing all along. If it turns out that most of the clergy are gay (and from what I’ve heard, that could well be true), then eventually, those self-haters will come to love themselves, and doctrine and policy will change, dragging some portion of the laity along, kicking and screaming, and making another portion of the laity sigh with relief, wondering what took them so long.

RareDenver's avatar

@daloon GA!

I understand in reality what has happened and will need to happen, but as I said earlier, in my eyes it just makes hypocrites out of them.

One thing about Islam is that the Koran (sp?) hasn’t changed since it was first written, word for word. You can’t say the same for the Christian bible can you?

TROLL's avatar

@RareDenver i agree,they cange the Bible to suit,however have you seen how strict the Koran is?

RareDenver's avatar

@TROLL

I read ya’

I’m no fan of religion full stop. All I’m saying is at least the Muslim holy text hasn’t been through loads of revisionists, editors and copywriters.

It stays true to itself, regardless of content, regardless of what you think to that content, it stays true to itself as a religion.

How people choose to follow it is up to them, whereas with Christianity those in charge at the time decided what when into the holy text and what didn’t and they still do it.

In that sense I respect Islam more for being less hypocritical, even if I don’t respect the teachings.

Sorry I’ve had a few drinks and might not be making complete sense.

Dansedescygnes's avatar

@RareDenver

Wow, RareDenver had a few drinks. The motherfuckin’ sky is falling. :)

RareDenver's avatar

@Dansedescygnes

hey it was my last day at work before I get married tomorrow, like I need an excuse!

oratio's avatar

@RareDenver Congratulations!

augustlan's avatar

@RareDenver Congrats! May your lives together be happy and long.

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