Swine flu vaccine? Cure or curse?

At first I didn’t intend to take it. Considering the nature of the flu, I didn’t care much. But I will have the vaccination. I don’t want to be responsible for spreading it around; to small children or people who aren’t that resilient.

I agree with @oratio. We aren’t only taking it for ourselves. In the past, when most people were innoculated against a virus, it was (nearly) eradicated. N’est pas?

WHO (World Health organisation) are advising against vaccination. They say that the vaccine should not be used as a prophylactic – and I’ll take more notice of WHO than almost any other source when advising about such things.

@DarkScribe Do you have a source? Haven’t heard this.

@oratio DarkScribe Do you have a source? Haven’t heard this.

It was making headlines here (Australia) a few weeks back. They claim that if it is used before infection that it will reduce efficiency and potentially create strains of the virus that the vaccine will not be effective with. It shouldn’t be too hard to Google up some data on.

@DarkScribe nope, they’re not. In fact it’s the opposite.

Influenza vaccines are one of the most effective ways to protect people from contracting illness during influenza epidemics and pandemics. Other preventive and treatment measures include anti-viral and other drugs, social distancing and personal hygiene. These measures must be used both prior to development of a pandemic vaccine and following the availability of a vaccine, expected in limited supply at first.

When it met on 7 July 2009, SAGE did not propose changes to the current WHO seasonal vaccination recommendations. People should therefore continue to seek seasonal influenza vaccination like any other year.

@DarkScribe IMO Flu mutates with no regard to vaccine. And the more that are infected the more likely it will change. With a less number of infected the slower the rate of mutation.

I’ll still heed WHO – regardless of other theories. They make a case that seems very reasonable. This is not just another strain of flu – something that they stress. The same rules don’t apply.

@DarkScribe my source is WHO

@DarkScribe *Should people continue to be vaccinated against seasonal influenza?
When it met on 7 July 2009, SAGE did not propose changes to the current WHO seasonal vaccination recommendations. People should therefore continue to seek seasonal influenza vaccination like any other year.*

Source: WHO http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/frequently_asked_questions/vaccine_preparedness/seasonal_influenza/en/index.html

@Zen *Should people continue to be vaccinated against seasonal influenza?

We are not talking about “season influenza”. WHO strongly recommends that those in high risk groups should continue to vaccinate – they also say that using things like Tamiflu as a prophylactic is not a good idea.

No vaccine for me. :) But to each their own. Incidentally, if you are allergic to eggs, or your immune system is compromised, you should NOT take the flu vaccine.

@DarkScribe the information comes from the WHO page dedicated to Swine Flu.

@Cartman _ the information comes from the WHO page dedicated to Swine Flu._

About “seasonal flu”? It isn’t the issue. They emphatically advised against people who fear “Swine Flu” using attempting to use Tamiflu as a prophylactic. That is my only concern and it is a response to the thread question. I had normal Flu vaccine this year, as always – it has little to do with the virus in question.

@DarkScribe WHO still recommends vaccination against swine flu, apparently on top of vaccination for, regular, seasonal influenza :)

@DarkScribe I haven’t read the WHO report but Ithink you might be confusing Tamiflu which is given after someone is infected with the vaccine which is always used as a prophylactic.

For myself, I am not going to seek to take the vaccine, but if I am in a group that it is recommended for, I will take it for the herd protection that Oratio talks about..

@Cartman WHO still recommends vaccination against swine flu,

Look at the date on your link. It is in September that they revised their position – your link is May. May is not “still”.

An interesting article on hand washing http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/why-hand-washing-may-be-your-best-medicine/?pagemode=print

@DarkScribe do you have a link for me? That’s the latest recommendation I find.

@Zen An interesting article on hand washing

That is what I am relying on – hygiene.

@Cartman DarkScribe do you have a link for me? That’s the latest recommendation I find.

No, but if you can wait until Monday I’‘l find several copies of the articles. I am not back in front of my computer until then. (Remind me if I forget.) I also have a hard copy press release – but it didn’t differ substantially from the various existing releases. They were late August, early September and in response to a mass rush to obtain Tamiflu.

I don’t imagine it should be hard to find – they were emphasising it rather emphatically.

Edit: I just did a search – found thousands of supporting reports. Here is the very first one

@DarkScribe Well, it has been shown that seasonal flu has become resistant to Tamiflu. But Tamiflu is not a vaccine.

@DarkScribe

I find this text rather convincing as a case pro vaccination, and I can’t find any later updates on the WHO site:

”Vaccines for pandemic influenza A

12 July 2009 (Originally posted on 2 May 2009 and revised on 27 May 2009)

Influenza vaccines are one of the most effective ways to protect people from contracting illness during influenza epidemics and pandemics. Other preventive and treatment measures include anti-viral and other drugs, social distancing and personal hygiene. These measures must be used both prior to development of a pandemic vaccine and following the availability of a vaccine, expected in limited supply at first.”

@Cartman I find this text pretty convincing, and I can’t find any later updates on the WHO site:

I find other and more recent releases convincing.

Without intending offense, you can assure me that you have tremendous empirical support to show that thrusting a black jellybean up your left nostril will guarantee immunity to Swine Flu. I won’t argue. I have an opinion, based on information from various sources, but collated and support by WHO. That is what I am sticking to – little point in trying to convince me otherwise. I have no desire to convince you of anything – you can research and make a decision as easily as I can – they do not have to concur.

@DarkScribe looking forward to your links on Monday.

@Cartman DarkScribe looking forward to your links on Monday.

They are all in a similar vein to the one I just posted, only repeated in local media, but you are welcome. Until Monday.

Is the vaccine subsidized in your respective countries?

@oratio Is the vaccine subsidized in your respective countries?

It is here (Australia).

@DarkScribe it seems you are confusing Tamilflu which is an antiviral drug that a patient takes once already sick and infected with a virus, with the vaccine that people take in order to not get sick at all as a preventive measure. Not the same discussion at all.

Tamilflu is NOT a vaccine.

Your link leads to a blog, not to WHO.

WHO recommends that anyone interested in taking a vaccine should consult their respective countries responsible government body to attain more information but all in all WHO is positive to vaccines.

WHO does say not to take Tamiflu preventivly but that is, again, a whole other matter.

For more on WHO and the swine flu: WHO has a site for it:
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/en/

@johanna This is what I was saying above. Thanks for providing the substantiating links.

@janbb
I saw your post but since it didn’t seem that everyone got your message for some obscure reason (although I thought it was very nice and clear), i thought I’d try it again!

@johanna Your link leads to a blog, not to WHO.

I didn’t say that it was to WHO, I posted a link from a search. Follow the blog’s links.

Many people have been attempting to use Tamiflu as a preventative, a prophylactic, that is the only issue that I am concerned with, as was WHO in their press release in September.

@DarkScribe re-reading your post and your answers I think that you might, in fact, as has been suggested a few times here, be confusing preventive use of Tamiflu with vaccination. Two totally different issues.

My links DO lead the the WHO and the WHO is PRO vaccination.

I’d like everyone to be sure they are discussing the same thing.

There are Seasonal and Swine flu vaccinations, and each comes in 2 forms: shot and nasal spray. Those forms have different properties: The nasal spray has some live virus, while the shot does not… so they are recommended for different populations based on individual risk factors. Tamiflu is NOT a vaccine, but a treatment that is most effective in the early stages of the flu. So there are a total of 5 substances relative to this discussion, and it’s become unclear who is referring to which.

I’m on my iPhone, and also don’t have time right now to research and find links. Sorry.

The New York Times today has a great Q&A article about the vaccine on page A16. It is accessible online also. The information is very comprehensive.

@DarkScribe
But why are you answering a question about VACCINES then if you are talking about Tamiflu?

Besides you wrote earlier.
‘WHO (World Health organisation) are advising against vaccination. They say that the vaccine should not be used as a prophylactic – and I’ll take more notice of WHO than almost any other source when advising about such things.’

Please check your facts:
WHO ARE NOT ADVISING AGAINST VACCINES.
Vaccines ARE preventive/prophylactic. No one in their right mind, and especially not the WHO, would advise against using vaccines preventively. That is ludicrous since that is the whole purpose of vaccines.

Tamiflu is an antiviral drug that is taken like medicine, ie when sick. Some antiviral drugs, such as the very common and efficient Valtrex, are used prophylactically. It all depends on the virus and the antiviral drug in question. WHO has never advised against taking all and any antiviral drugs preventively – but they are not advising the use of Tamiflu prophylactically against the Swineflu.

@Cartman DarkScribe re-reading your post and your answers I think that you might, in fact, as has been suggested a few times here

I think that what I have been doing is expressing my opinion, much of it based on the opinion of WHO and their – according to you – confusion regarding misuse of Tamiflu.

Many people here and according to WHO in many other parts of the world, have been acquiring and using Tamiflu before infection – as a preventative, as a prophylactic – much of it after the release of this and similar reports. They are treating it as a vaccine – WHO is trying to educate.

My reaction is to have my normal annual Flu shots and not worry about Swine Flu (beyond trying to avoid by use of stringent hygiene) unless I actually catch it – then use Tamiflu or similar as it was meant to be used.

I have no real concern (though perhaps a small degree of curiosity) about how other people regard WHO’s warning.

@DarkScribe What you are doing is not giving your opinion but misleading people. You are referring people to the WHO and giving incorrect information that is not true.
The WHO has not ever confused Vaccines and Tamiflu. It is plain for everyone to read on their site.

You are the the one claiming the WHO are advising against vaccines. you are the one saying vaccines should not be used as a prophylactic. Saying that is simply ignorant and ridiculous and also dangerous. You are posting incorrect information and you simply do not seem to get that you are misleading people.

Why don’t you just accept the fact that what you wrote before is wrong, that you misunderstood everything and do not know what you are talking about and get over yourself????

THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS TO NOT MISLEAD PEOPLE AND GIVE THEM INCORRECT MEDICAL ADVICE WHICH YOU ARE DOING.

@DarkScribe

You are more than welcome to express your opinion. Misrepresentation of fact is another matter.

Everyone, including you me and the WHO, seems to be in agreement on Tamiflu – it should not be used as a prophylactic because it is not.

You said:
“WHO (World Health organisation) are advising against vaccination. They say that the vaccine should not be used as a prophylactic”

That is incorrect. Look at the latest update from WHO

“I have an opinion, based on information from various sources, but collated and support by WHO”

But your opinion seems contradictory to that of the WHO

@johanna DarkScribe What you are doing is not giving your opinion but misleading people. You are referring people to the WHO and giving incorrect information that is not true.

No, I am repeating what WHO published as a warning.

They said that there is no effective vaccine as yet, and that people attempting to use Tamiflu as a vaccine/preventative/prophylactic (they use all three terms) are likely to make an epidemic or pandemic worse. Tamiflu is an antiviral, but is popularly described in much media as a vaccine.

As the question is regarding vaccinations NOW, I assume that it is yet another misuse of Tamiflu. It has been happening here a lot, people stockpiling it and using it as a prophylactic (in the manner of a vaccine).

@DarkScribe also important to remember: Tylenol shouldn’t be used as a vaccine for the swine flu.

I found this link on the blog that @DarkScribe posted earlier, and it’s a great source, because it consolidates links to many places on this subject.

Can’t really say much about my personal decision on taking the vaccine or not. That choice is not available to me. I am allergic to eggs, so can’t have any flu shot.

I got a little lost here. is this thread about discussing the flu vaccine, or proving @DarkScribe wrong? Why do you feel the need to double team him?

@scamp it has turned out to be a bit of both. But the question still stands and more opinions are welcome.

@Cartman DarkScribe also important to remember: Tylenol shouldn’t be used as a vaccine for the swine flu.

Damn! I had been stockpiling with hope of making a fortune when the pandemic hits.

@DarkScribe :)

@DarkScribe Did you or did you not write:

‘WHO (World Health organisation) are advising against vaccination. They say that the vaccine should not be used as a prophylactic – and I’ll take more notice of WHO than almost any other source when advising about such things’

As to your claim:
‘Tamiflu is an antiviral, but is popularly described in much media as a vaccine.’’
I know Australia is ‘down under’ but no way that any scientific journalist even down there would be so ignorant as to ever confuse a vaccine with an antiviral. And never ever that WHO confuses them.

Oh and there ARE several vaccines against the swine flu. They are currently being released in Europe and they are available in the US and in most countries. They are all referred to on the WHO website. The most widespread one in Europe for instance is called Pandemrix,

Once again you got your facts WRONG, or are you just enjoying making things up as you go? For heavens sake a grown man must be able to admit when he is wrong instead on keeping on lying.

@johanna _‘Tamiflu is an antiviral, but is popularly described in much media as a vaccine.’’
I know Australia is ‘down under’ but no way that any scientific journalist even down there would be so _

Hmmmm. Where do you hail from where the descriptor “media” translates to “scientific journalist”?

Oh and there ARE several vaccines against the swine flu. They are currently being released in Europe and they are available in the US and in most countries.

Well, as I don’t live in the US, and don’t haunt WHO’s West Pacific office (just note the odd release from them) I was not aware of that. Thank you. They are not released here as yet. It still doesn’t change the WHO press release in September. They certainly weren’t released then – not according to WHO.

I have expressed my opinion, and that is what it is, my opinion. If you don’t like it, then try not to cry too loudly as you come to terms with it – it might annoy your neighbours.

When the vaccine is approved and released here, I still won’t be using it unless absolutely necessary, I’ll stick to careful hygiene and avoiding areas of likely contamination. If I do contract the disease then hopefully Tamiflu will still be effective on my system – one of the concerns WHO has with regards to misuse.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE58T1NM20090930

September 30 Swine flu vaccine available in Australia.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/pandemic_influenza_vaccines_20090924/en/index.html
WHO September 24
Current status of vaccine

Removed

Opinion:
An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence. It is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts.

Fact:
A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and confirmed. Facts are often contrasted with opinions and beliefs, statements which are held to be true, but are not amenable to pragmatic confirmation.

A big difference….

@johanna September 30 Swine flu vaccine available in Australia.

It was approved last week? Ok, I did not know that. You score one. (Does it make you feel good?) I am on the “High Risk” (Cancer/Diabetes) list and am supposedly one of the first to be informed when such things become available.

I have just called our local clinic – it has not fully rolled out yet and will not be available for another two to three weeks unless I can present as a pregnant woman or an Aboriginal or Islander it seems. I still won’t, I will, as noted earlier, rely on trying to avoid contracting it and the anti-viral if that is not successful. I have recently had a conventional flu shot and that will do me for now.

@johanna You really should include links when quoting something on the internet so you won’t be accused of plagiarism, especially when you are calling someone else a liar.

waste of time.

@Everyone Don’t bother arguing with @DarkScribe. This isn’t the first time he’s posted definitive information, but then failed to produce a link (eventually we find out he cannot produce said link, go figure). So, I would suggest following the advice of both the WHO (nothing has changed since the date of this link) and CDC. I read everything available about the flu, and get daily/weekly emails from public health authorities (note date, October 9th, 2009, and today is October 10th, 2009) and the CDC, so I’m pretty much up to date.

Below are the groups recommended to receive the H1N1 vaccine (we aren’t talking about prophylactic meds, but VACCINE):

The groups recommended to receive the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine include:

Pregnant women because they are at higher risk of complications and can potentially provide protection to infants who cannot be vaccinated;
Household contacts and caregivers for children younger than 6 months of age because younger infants are at higher risk of influenza-related complications and cannot be vaccinated. Vaccination of those in close contact with infants younger than 6 months old might help protect infants by “cocooning” them from the virus;
Healthcare and emergency medical services personnel because infections among healthcare workers have been reported and this can be a potential source of infection for vulnerable patients. Also, increased absenteeism in this population could reduce healthcare system capacity;
All people from 6 months through 24 years of age
Children from 6 months through 18 years of age because cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in children who are in close contact with each other in school and day care settings, which increases the likelihood of disease spread, and
Young adults 19 through 24 years of age because many cases of 2009 H1N1 influenza have been seen in these healthy young adults and they often live, work, and study in close proximity, and they are a frequently mobile population; and,
Persons aged 25 through 64 years who have health conditions associated with higher risk of medical complications from influenza.

As a healthcare worker, parent of two kids, and rational adult, I will be getting both the seasonal AND H1N1 vaccines, and vaccinating my children.

@shilolo Thank you!

I tried to get vaccinated a couple of days ago, but as a twenty-something I am on the bottom of the list. It might be Christmas time before I get my shot. The vaccine is still in short supply and those with more urgent need get first choice.

@DarkScribe

>Look at the date on your link. It is in September that they revised their position –
>your link is May. May is not “still”.

That Who article was in the Sunday papers on the last weekend of August, not September. It was my father’s fiftieth and it was under discussion by everyone that weekend. Some of the younger members of the family were amused at the use of the word prophylactic in conjunction with Swine Flu.

No vaccine for me either. Talk around here is that they created the vaccine too fast and there’s no telling what the side effects (months down the road) could be. There’s also the question of whether or not we’ll actually be able to get enough of the vaccine around here for those who want it.

@mramsey finally.

@mramsey Sure, it’s your choice and I respect that. I fail to see how possible side effects of a vaccine could be as bad as the actual disease, though.

I don’t want to live my life hiding from crowds and unable to travel without fear, so I will have one as soon as I can. I doubt that any side effects will be more than a slight nuisance.

@shilolo
Good post!

“Injecting organisms into your body to provoke immunity is contrary to nature, and vaccination carries enormous potential to do serious damage to your health.”
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/08/04/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspx

@Samurai How do you mean it’s contrary to nature? That we use tools?

@Samurai that link is unreadable unless you are a subscriber. Do you have another link?

@scamp Ah yeah, I just put a fake email.

There’s also this: http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/dr-russell-blaylock-vaccine-may-be-more-dangerous-than-swine-flu/
Both sources aren’t very credible at that though.

Just waking up, that link above is a bad link quoting the original witch is here: http://www.rense.com/general87/blay2.htm
Its not really worthy of a debate from me. I apologize about the double post, it wouldn’t allow me to edit.

That’s ok.. I just found it here, then I googled the guy who said it and it seems he has some critics.

On wiki they say:

In May 2006, BusinessWeek published an editorial about Mercola’s marketing strategies. Columnist David Gumpert opined: ’ Mercola gives the lie to the notion that holistic practitioners tend to be so absorbed in treating patients that they aren’t effective businesspeople. While Mercola on his site seeks to identify with this image by distinguishing himself from “all the greed-motivated hype out there in health-care land”, he is a master promoter, using every trick of traditional and Internet direct marketing to grow his business. (...) He is selling health-care products and services, and is calling upon an unfortunate tradition made famous by the old-time snake oil salesmen of the 1800s.’[6]

And:

Mercola advises elimination of most prescription drugs and immunizations, and favors what he calls natural food choices, lifestyle modifications and energy psychology tools to address emotional challenges.[27] He views these as safer and more effective options because they address what he believes to be the ‘root causes’ of disease rather than simply treating symptoms by what he refers to as palliative means. He states that drug companies profoundly influence both government health agencies and the mainstream medical community, which in turn promote medical practices that are beneficial to drug companies but harmful to the patient.[28] Typical supplements he promotes are krill oil, fish oil, vitamin K, probiotics, and anti-oxidant supplements. He discontinued his recommendation of cod liver oil in 2008 when he learned that its high level of vitamin A interfered with vitamin D function. He strongly advised the use of appropriate sun exposure to optimize vitamin D levels and if that is not an option then to use oral vitamin D supplementation.[29]

He seems to have some healthy ideas, but I’m not sure I would take his advice about elimnating prescription drug and replace them totally with food suplements. that seems a little risky to me.

My daughter is now pregnant and has a 1 year old son. she says she is going to get the vaccine, and have her son vaccinated as well. there is no way to prove the safety or effectiveness of the vaccine as far as I know from what I have read about it. the CDC seems to think side effects would be minor. I hope they are right. the risks of the flu itself seem to be more dangerous than the vaccine, but I guess this is something time will tell. I really don’t understand all the personal attacks aimed at one person in paticular that have happened in this thread. I do have to say I am dissappointed to see a Mod participate in kind. I am glad to see some of the flame was reatracted since I first read it tho.

I hope those considering the vaccine will remain healthy, as well as those who are opposed to it. I work in a bio-medical lab, and we’ve been working overtime due to the latest batch of people exhibiting symtoms. I have a feeling things may get worse before they get better. I hope I am wrong about that. I think the most important thing is for people to follow instructions such as covering sneezes and coughs, and to stay home when they are sick.

Yeah, fool on me most likely. Most Self proclaimed doctors are scam artists in my opinion.
I’d still rather look cool and ware a face mask then get the vaccine myself.

@Samurai I know exactly what you mean! it really burns me up when someone lies about being a doctor!! They think they can hide behind the internet, but sooner or later, the truth comes out!

You probably won’t like wearing the fask mask for long tho. It gets hot in them, and makes you feel like you can’t breathe!

@scamp Sorry you feel that protecting the public health from an uninformed scaremonger who has, on a regular basis, disseminated false information is inappropriate, but I stand by what I said 100%. Indeed, not one comment was a personal attack (i.e. was a link supporting his comments that the WHO advised against vaccination ever produced? No.).

Perhaps we can now leave the medical advice to the people who actually know medicine.

I thought the OP was asking who was and wasn’t getting the vaccine and why. I’m not, @DarkScribe is not, and many other people are choosing not to. We all have are reasons and @DarkScribe stated his and his decision should be respected.

@shilolo Perhaps we can now leave the medical advice to the people who actually know medicine? It seems to me, if someone is looking for REAL medical advice and not just suggestions or opinions they should be consulting a doctor, not fluther.

@mramsey I hesitate to wade in to this morass, but Shililo is a doctor of infectious diseases and Dark Scribe was stating things as facts that were false, not just giving his opinion.

@Everyone I’m sorry to say this, but I’m done answering medical Qs. My parting suggestion is that you research the sources (or lack of sources) of the people posting from now on. Best wishes and good luck with your decisions.

@shilolo No don’t do that! Your comments are always very educative, sparks interest and often shows different aspects not thought of. That would be a pity.

@shilolo I second the opinion of oratio. Hear, hear

@shilolo I third it. I can see why you get frustrated but it is very helpful to many of us to have you weigh in on these questions.

@shilolo My apologies. I had no idea you were a doctor. But I do agree with you that people should research any info that is given to them, especially medical. Fluther is great and I love hearing others ideas, thoughts, suggestions and advice but when seeking serious info/advice I think its better to consult experts.

@shilolo In the guidelines when I first joined fluther I read that the mods would remove remarks that were a personal attack against another member. Before you edited your post, you called him ignorant, and were quite rude to him. I thought it was a mod’s job to stop people from posting in that manner, not jump in and participate in kind.

He said, and I am quoting his post above: I have expressed my opinion, and that is what it is, my opinion

I believe he was responding to the last line of the question which reads:.What are your thoughts on this? How is he supposed to post a link to opinion? Why do you get so angry when people discuss medical topics ? Are you the end all authority to anything medically related here? If someone challenges your opinion you get angry and try to keep them from posting any further.

I don’t think I have ever seen you actually answer the direct question… Are you a doctor? When this question has been asked in the past, your groupies have raced in and answered for you and you let them do all the talking. Why have you never answered that direct question?

I have as much right to post on any and all topics here as anyone else does as long as I follow the guidelines, which I try my best to do. Please don’t ever tell me again where I can post and where I cannot.

To this rest of the members here: I apologize for the disruption of this thread. And I also apologize to you shilolo for posting this out in the open. But I feel this should be settled once and for all. Before I leave, I just want to ask you two questions. If you stand by what you said 100%, why did you edit out the insults you threw at the member in question after you posted them? And last but not least, and please give us a straight answer to a straight question. Are you a medical doctor?

@scamp I have been here more than a year, and have stated hundreds of times that I am, indeed, a medical doctor with specialization in Infectious Diseases (just put shilolo and doctor into the search bar and see what comes up). I have trained at the best institutions in the world, have a PhD in Immunology, and actively see HIV patients and inpatient consults for complex infectious issues. I do full-time, basic research on the pathogenesis of tuberculosis at one of the top 3 medical schools in the country. I have helped and commented on hundreds of medical threads (where I frequently state my credentials) and have even encouraged someone to seek emergency medical attention which thankfully led to the diagnosis of acute appendicitis and surgery. That you claim to have not seen me “answer this question directly” is odd, since I personally advised you on a medical issue long ago and at that time told you directly that I am a doctor.

While I couldn’t find the exact thread, here’s a wonderful example from back in 2008. Scroll past my comment to see yours. Oh, and FYI. Put the terms shilolo scamp 2008 into the fluther search and read how many threads we both commented on where I stated I was a doctor. Your “calling me out” on this issue is very strange indeed. Almost smacks of a personal, defamatory attack….

My problem with this whole thread is not anyone expressing their opinion as to whether they personally will get the shot. That is up to them. My problem is with one person stating outright falsehood (that the WHO advised against vaccination), and then never retracted that statement. This issue is of grave concern to me, as we are faced with a potentially devastating pandemic (whether that comes to pass is anyone’s guess).

I’m sorry if, by presenting credible evidence and reasoned analysis of medical issues, that offends you somehow. In fact, many times when other people have answered questions accurately, I have given them lurve for it, and acknowledged their answer in a positive light. Maybe you need to assess why having someone with actual medical experience answer questions threatens you so much?

In the end, this is all moot. After more than a year, I am weary of this. I will now leave the medical advice to the “armchair experts.”

Ehheh, I hope I didn’t mess up here and that it happened to be someone else.

@verwillikit I never heard of the idea that if your immune system is compromised you shouldn’t take it (of course I haven’t heard much about it). I thought they were promoting it among pregnant women.

I am loving reading this thread. I’ve asked so many people about if they recommend the H1N1 vaccine or not and the most common response I get is that they don’t have enough information about the vaccine to give a recommendation. I heard it is being highly promoted for pregnant women (which I am). I really have no idea if I’m going to get it or not and it’s causing me a bit of anxiety. I work in the social work field so I am at risk by being at work as well.

Okay from the New York Times. This is scary:
Officials are particularly worried about spontaneous miscarriages, because they are urging pregnant women to be among the first to be vaccinated. Pregnant women are usually advised to get flu shots, because they and their fetuses are at high risk of flu complications, but in 2009 the pressure is greater.
(nothing to back it up, just thought it was scary)

I’m going to do more personal research on the topic and talk with my doctor (of course).

@scamp Since we are putting everything “out in the open”, would you care for me to provide the evidence from way back on July 10th, 2008 that you knew I am a doctor? I mean, you did send me an unsolicited PM with a personal medical question which I have now tracked down (It took me quite some time to find it, but I did it). We even had a full PM conversation about your issue where you clearly understood what I did and what I was saying. Now, why would you do that if you didn’t believe the person you were communicating with IS a doctor (me)? And why would you then pretend in this thread like you don’t know? Would you like me to refresh your memory with the actual proof? (I have screenshots of our PM conversation I will happily provide).

By the way, sorry for derailing this thread, but since @scamp decided to put this “out in the open” (her words), I just could not sit idly by. If she wants transparency, I will happily provide it.

@shilolo: Could you explain the difference between the nasal spray vaccine for H1N1 as opposed to the shot for H1N1? Which is better for which populations? I had heard that similar to the seasonal flu vaccine, they use different forms if the virus.

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@ALL: I am disappointed by the deterioration of this thread. I tried to get people to clarify what they were addressing with my first post, since it was confusing that the question was about the vaccine, but that DarkScribe seemed to be referring to the Tamiflu treatment. Sadly, my rushed attempt was ineffective.

@hearkat The same thing applies for seasonal flu as for H1N1. Not to be rude, but I stated I will no longer answer medical Qs, and meant it.

Sorry all, this has gotten way out of hand. I apoliogize for my part in the disruption., but I stand by what I say, threat or no threat.

by the way shi, I have screenshots as well, so you can’t edit your way out of this one.

@scamp Care to comment on your assertion that I am not a doctor, and explain why you decided to present it now, even though you knew that I am? I’m all ears. Oh, and let’s both share our screenshots. At worst, yours will show that I edited something after thinking it through, while mine will show that you have known for 1.5 years that I am a doctor, and thus, that your whole comment above is curiously out of place (and a no-so-veiled innuendo-filled personal attack).

[mod says] Please take personal issues to PMs. All further off-topic posts will be removed.

I would call it a blessing. For most people the vaccine is safe. And the science is very simple. Fewer hosts spreading the virus means lower chances of even more dangerous mutations.

The Spanish flu in 1918 was caused by the H1N1 type of influenza virus. Suppose humanity had had the technology to make a proper diagnosis in 1917 and identify the virus and its DNA. Suppose the potential of this virus would have been known. Suppose large scale vaccinations had begun in late 1917. Fewer hosts spreading the virus means lower chances of even more dangerous mutations. Some 50 million to 100 million people worldwide in 1918 and 1919 might not have been killed. But maybe this imagined alternative history is different. People warned that there’s no telling what the side effects (months down the road) could be and most people refused to get vaccinated in 1917.

Back to the future. Health officials in Germany endorsed the use of the new vaccine.

I had the shot this morning and I am still alive and kicking. Not even a trace of autism yet…ha…

It seems that some New York healthcare workers are taking legal action to halt the vaccine. They seem to feel it hasn’t been tested properly.

Quoting the article:

*New York medical workers took legal action Thursday to halt a massive swine flu inoculation program being rolled out across the United States, claiming the vaccines have not been properly tested.

Lawyers for the group filed a temporary restraining order in a Washington federal court against government medical regulators they claim rushed H1N1 vaccines to the public without adequately testing their safety and efficacy.

“None of the vaccines against H1N1 have been properly tested,” attorney Jim Turner, one of half a dozen lawyers working on the case, told AFP.

The complaint filed Thursday argued that far from preventing a massive outbreak of swine flu, the “live attenuated influenza virus nasal mist vaccine could trigger” an H1N1 pandemic.

“I don’t know of another live vaccine for flu. So you have immediately a new problem you don’t have with a killed vaccine,” Turner told AFP.

Officials at the National Institutes of Health have said that trials of swine flu vaccine began in August and delivered results last month, showing that the vaccine was well tolerated and produced a robust immune response in older children and adults in good health with just a single dose.

But Turner insisted that “the FDA did not do the proper testing to show safety and efficacy of this vaccine, which is under the law a new drug.

“When I say test data, I don’t mean some professor at some medical school somewhere infected some students and said ‘I don’t see any problems.’

“What I mean is carefully conducted double blind placebo controlled studies trials done in accordance with FDA regulations, and a whole series of them to look at dosing… which are then reviewed by FDA scientists.

“None of that has been done on this vaccination and we’re saying the law requires it to be done,” Turner said*.

Today at the Head Start I work at, I heard that the mercury level in the H1N1 vaccine is too high so we will not be offering it to the students. I didn’t get to hear all of the details though.

Breaking my vow in the interest of accuracy.

”“I don’t know of another live vaccine for flu. So you have immediately a new problem you don’t have with a killed vaccine,” Turner told AFP.”

Um….Flumist has been around for 5 years. There is no difference between the Flumist (live attenuated) vaccine for seasonal flu (H3N1) and “swine” flu (H1N1). Indeed, we provide many live attenuated vaccines, including MMR, Varicella (chicken pox), polio, smallpox and yellow fever.

Also, if one is going to cut and paste an article, at least include the whole thing, like the part where MedImmune (which makes Flumist) said:

“Karen Lancaster, a spokeswoman for the MedImmune, which manufactures the nasal spray H1N1 vaccine, told AFP that the the company has had a seasonal flu vaccine made with weakened live virus on the market since 2003.” (emphasis mine)

I second what @shilolo posts – that statement stood out to me as well, since it is well documented that the nasal mist had weakened live virus, which I mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.

My job will offer the H1N1 shot, and I will be getting it.

I included a link to the article. I posted the reason for the possible lawsuit, which is the topic of the article. I did not post the entire thing to save space here. My daughter and her 1 year old son will be getting the shot. I cannot due to severe egg allergy.

Health officials recommend gap between flu spray vaccines

WASHINGTON — Both seasonal flu and 2009 H1N1 flu vaccines may be given to a patient at the same visit, as long as they’re not both in the nasal spray form, health officials said.

The reason for not mixing the two nasal sprays is to ensure optimum immune response, according to Tom Skinner, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention public affairs officer. If both vaccines are in spray form, they should be given a month apart.

“The attenuated (weakened) viruses in the vaccine have to infect cells in the nose to cause an immune response,” wrote Skinner in an email message. “It’s believed that if separate viruses were introduced into the nose at the same time then they may compete against each other and result in diminished immune response.”

Both vaccines are also available as injections in which the virus has been killed.

The H1N1 nasal sprays, manufactured by Maryland’s MedImmune, became available almost two weeks ago while the distribution of the shots began this week, according to the CDC.

However, only limited quantities of the shots have arrived in Maryland with “more to come,” according to Karen Black, director of public relations for the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene.

Black also said that the department encourages everyone, especially “priority groups,” to get the H1N1 vaccine because 99 percent of the state’s influenza activity is related to H1N1.

The priority group for the H1N1 vaccine includes pregnant women, people who live with or care for children younger than 6 months of age, health care and emergency medical services workers, 6-months-to-24-year-olds, and 25-to-64-year-olds with chronic health disorders or compromised immune systems, according to the CDC web site.

Maryland reported its 10th H1N1 flu-related death, “an adult with serious underlying medical conditions from Western Maryland,” Tuesday as well as 217 H1N1 flu-related hospitalizations since June 1, 2009, according to a DHMH press release.

About 890 people have died nationwide due to H1N1 flu, according to Amanda Aldridge, CDC spokeswoman, who also said that the number may be “an underestimation because we rely on states to send us this information.”

Aldridge also recommended getting both seasonal flu and H1N1 vaccines.

“The H1N1 vaccine will not protect against the seasonal flu,” Aldridge said. “They are different flu strain viruses. You will need to get both the seasonal and H1N1 (vaccines) to protect against both viruses.”

Local vaccine campaigns for both seasonal flu and H1N1 flu are being held throughout the state.

The University of Maryland held a free seasonal flu vaccine drill, where shots were provided free to 2,000 people Thursday.

The Montgomery County Health Department held a free H1N1 vaccination clinic providing nasal sprays and injections to priority groups Wednesday.

Mary Anderson, county health department spokeswoman, said that 1,400 H1N1 vaccines were administered in the vaccination clinic, more of which are scheduled in the coming weeks.

I find it fascinating that all over the world those who are visibly and determinedly reacting in a negative way are medical professionals. WHO’s initial – take it if at risk – wait if you are low risk is making more and more sense.

Totally agree with you @DarkScribe

Does anyone respond to what @mramsey posted about the mercury levels? That concerns me as pregnant women are one of the top people they are targeting for the vaccine.

@RedPowerLady sorry I don’t have more details. If I don’t hear anything by then, I’ll ask at work Monday.

@mramsey Thanx for posting that. I was thinking one of the swine flu advocates on here might have more info.

@RedPowerLady Would love to help, but (i) I’ve given up answering medical Qs and (ii) I’m sure there are many influenza/vaccine “experts” on here that can answer that for you.

@shilolo I understand, i wouldn’t bother you with medical Qs as i’m sure it is frustrating for you and this should be fun not work.

I know that a lot of people on here are not experts but really any information on the topic helps me out personally so I can have an avenue to start researching on my own.

To be honest I’m one of those people who are completely on the fence about the issue. I won’t have a doctor until 11/1 so until then I’m trying to research on my own so I have intelligent questions to ask my doctor. I am in the pregnancy risk category and so it really is an important issue to me personally.

According to the CDC, there will be two preparations of the H1N1 vaccine available. Multidose vials will have thimerasol in it. It should be noted that the association of thimerasol with autism (peoples’ concern) has been debunked, given that autism rates have gone up over the past 10 years even though NO childhood vaccine contains thimerasol. However, to address people’s concerns, single dose syringes will be available that are thimerasol-free. You could ask for that, assuming your doctor/clinic has it.

@mote Good information, I will look into that. Thank you.

@RedPowerLady I’m concerned as well because my daughter is pregnant also. I’ll be following this thread to gather new knowledge on the subject. I really hope you both will be safe. She told me she has to limit even the amount of tuna she eats because of the mercury risk. I didn’t know it was in the vaccine.

I’m also looking into getting more information on thimerasol. Thanks to @mote for your post!

@scamp Ya that’s what I was relating it to, the watch on fish eating because of tuna.
Is your daughter planning on getting the vaccine?

I never in my 65 years have had a flu shot. In the 70’s I think it was, I did have a pretty bad case of flu, but nothing before or after. However since I live in the midst of a group of people who are considered to be extremely high risk and since the truck full of nurses pulled up 10 steps away from my front door, I did get the swine flu shot. (Did I mention it was free, not that it was a determining factor) That was yesterday, my arm was a little sore at point of entry but all gone this morning. The nurse on the truck said if it were not for the fact of where I live she would say it was really up to me, based on my medical history, but under the circumstances she advised getting it. She assured me she had hers a couple of weeks earlier with no ill effects so I did it. I am so proud and brave! All the kids applauded me when it was over and then they had a sausage sizzle for the brave ones. Thus insuring if the vaccine doesn’t get you the cholesterol from the sausage will!!!

@rooeytoo: Thanks for the update! A sore arm is pretty typical for a day or two, but please let us know if you develop any other symptoms. I wonder what the differences are between the vaccines in the different countries :-/

I should add that the nurse who advised me was a very pleasant middle aged lady, but the junior doctor who actually gave me the jab was about the cutest young guy I have seen in a long time. He had a smile that would melt icebergs (or old ladies) and was very gentle and had a lovely touch.

Mind you, not that any of this influenced me, I’m just including it as background information, hehehehe.

[mod says]: I’ve cleaned up some of the more biting jabs (internal cuts) in an effort keep the thread germane.

As an update, in the hospital where I work, in the last week alone there have been 3 otherwise healthy men with no medical problems whatsoever (age 30, 32, and 42) dying from influenza. And yet, I still don’t have my vaccine due to a national shortage. With two kids at home (who also haven’t been vaccinated), I am very nervous. So, while I urge anyone who can to get vaccinated, those who choose not to are taking a huge risk (plus, it frees up the vaccine for those who truly need and want it).

I will up date my experience as well.

I had the jab about a month ago and have had no ill effects at all.

My husband seemed to have a case of the sniffles and that turned into a pretty ordinary cold since he had his but I think that is coincidence. We are around snuffling sneezing kids all the time so that is the more likely culprit.

I am almost 65 and he is almost 69

Thank you @shilolo.
I also want to express my appreciation of your previous posts on this thread.

I think working with viruses makes you more aware of the risks than the ‘normal’ population.

With reference to this flu, I think we are merely lucky that the disease turned out relatively mild. Most people just don’t have a clue. About three or so months ago, I saw a (Dutch) TV show, in which ‘experts’ were relieved to see a mortality rate of under 2% in healthy people. The journalists on the show responded along the line of “it is now clear that the whole excitement about this flu was just a hype, fueled by commercial interests”.

I was shocked. 2% Mortality in a population with no immunity, would mean roughly 300.000 deaths in The Netherlands. People are making stupid remarks, because I feel they just don’t know what viral threats could turn into, I feel. Probably, because they cannot comprehend massive dying around them.

It now turns out to be a lot better situation than initially feared, but with 28 deaths (not even close to 300.000!!!) the people in The Netherlands start to become very nervous. There are even vaccine tourists, going for a shot abroad!

I thank you for keeping rationale in the thread and would ask all those that do not know what they are talking about to not represent nonsense as fact. If people want to buy Oscillococcinum, go ahead. Just realize you do not just put your own health at risk, but also of those around you.

The next virus may not be so mild. Misinformation on this topic is dangerous and in my mind very unethical.

I got the H1N1 shot Monday morning, it is now Friday. I massaged it in thoroughly and had less soreness than I would have after a good workout.

I did have a head cold a few weeks back, and of course at the first symptoms I started to wonder, but it was well on its way within a few days… no swollen glands and only a low-grade temp the first day. Now both the receptionists are sneezing, so something new is going around. Neither of them elected to get the shot…