Does a swastika still evoke bad feelings even when used in a historical context?

I think it is still a very potent symbol that causes visceral reactions. I don’t think it can be used innocuously and without knowledge and intent.

The fact that it is an ancient Sanskrit symbol of good fortune has been totally eclipsed by its use in modern times.

It’s an Asian symbol representing the sun so it is still seen in the region without the Nazi association but westerners will always associate it with a dark period in world history.

It has to be taken in context. If some white guy has it tattooed on him, he’s probably a nazi.
Asian guy? Sun symbol.

When I see a Nazi swastika the first thing that comes to my mind is the slaughter of my family and people in the Holocaust (I am not a Jew, I am Rromani Gypsy). If it is a tattoo, I am very good at ascertaining how it is used. Most often it is used in the Nazi context in tattoos.

There is no joke to a Nazi swastika to me and I doubt there is to anyone who lost family in the Holocaust.

When I see one that is not a Nazi swastika, I think to myself how annoyed people who use it as a symbol of peace must be by the Nazis sullying it.

I do not automatically see a swastika and have the feelings I do when I see a Nazi one.

Reclaim the swastika

It is not seen as a joke. Antisemitism and Natzi beliefs are still very much alive and well. How could you think it could ever be seen as a joke? Compassionate people are still uncomfortable at the sight of a swastika in any context.

Uncomfortable, definitely.

Ahhh, the crooked cross. I had a friend that shared her stories of encampment, torture and escape. She showed me her number tattooed on her forearm. Forever, at least for me, it evokes a sense of shame that one tribe of humans could be cajoled into annihilating another tribe.

The swastika will always be associated with killing Jews, much like the Confederate Flag will always be associated with Slavery.

I agree with @filmfann. The associations are there, plain and simple. That doesn’t mean that everyone reacts to them the same way. I only recently discovered I have Czech Jewish relatives, but seeing the symbol doesn’t make me cringe as much as it makes me think “that symbol means Nazism and the Holocaust.” I can’t help but associate it with that.

Uhm… two peoples were in the Final Solution itself: Gypsies and Jews, both peoples losing millions. Yes, I can back up what I say about my people. Despite us being ignored, the swastika is a symbol of the slaughter of both peoples as well as the many others slaughtered in the Holocaust, usually ignored.

Most people do not seem to know this. If anyone cares enough to learn, pm me.

End history lesson.

It’s easy to get a little desensitized to it while watching a lot of the history channel. But when seen in real life it is usually pretty disturbing.

In Europe and North America at least, the Nazi connotation is the first thing most people think of.

Other places, not so much.

Toronto Globe and Mail – May 20, 2009
Want to avoid swastikas in India? Good luck
New Delhi – Not long ago, The Globe and Mail’s Delhi driver, Lalit Sharama, became the proud owner of a second-hand jeep, which he leases to the bureau.

A broad coalition of us, friends and family, pooled resources to help Lalit make the purchase – a huge leap into the world of property owners, a milestone for his family. Lalit is a recent convert to Seventh Day Adventism, but on the day he drove the car off the lot, his family made sure his first stop was the local Hindu temple, where a puja was performed to bless the jeep as both vehicle and family business. And so, when it arrived at the bureau, the vehicle was gaily decorated with bright red swastikas.

I agree with @Jeruba, the use by the Nazis has eclipsed the original intent of this symbol. The Peace sign that the hippies revived, has much older origins; “Cross of Nero – Or Peace sign. Another sign that mocks the cross of Jesus. Also know as “The Dead Man Rune”. It appears on the tombstones of some of Hitler’s SS troops.” link
Like any word, which is also simply a symbol that represents something, it means whatever a group of people ascribe to it.
But we have so much saturation of that particular symbol, especially since we have The History Channel and the Discovery Channel, that our current society may never have a long enough cooling off and forgetting period for us to collectively associate that particular symbol with anything other than the Nazis.

I think some of you are missing my point. I am aware of the atrocities associated with the swastika, and what it meant before that. But if I see a swastika on a movie poster, I am not offended, nor do I feel uncomfortable.

Do most people get offended or uncomfortable around a swastika used in any context?

@jackm Ok, I understand now.

If I see one in a movie, it is part of the plot and does not affect me that way. Nor does it affect me that way in a historical context. I remember my family, my people, and all the others slaughtered, but I do not have much of an emotional response.

When I see one worn on a shirt, tattood on someone, flown at rallies, or spraypained on my garage, I become angry.

The character in American History X having a swastika tattoo informs the viewer of his beliefs. He is anti-jew, and anti-social. You know going in that he is not a good person. The use of the swastika in that poster is informative, and I am not offended by it.

If it is a tattoo, vandelism, on an article of clothing it is a horrible frightening thing for a Jew to see, and I would guess others who identify with being killed by the Nazi’s even now. I would venture to guess even people who don’t directly identify with Nazi Germany would still be afraid that the people who wear or use the symbol are hateful, violent, people.

Now, for a movie poster, well, that is just a movie, so I think it is ok.

I agree with @Captain_Fantasy about the context.

Ii don’t know if offended is a word I make much use of. if I see a person with a swastika tattooed on them, I make certain assumptions about that person, and am not interested in any type of friendship with them. Offended? Not really, “put off” might be a better term. Uncomfortable? No. Whatever the context is, I assume it has to do with Nazi’s or skinheads, or some other group of people who hold no interest for me other than someone I wish to avoid.
Now, having said that, if I were to see it in an “eastern” context, I would, of course have an different outlook.
I apologize for having misread the intent of your question the first time.
I saw the movie you mentioned, and enjoyed it, but I have negative associations with that symbol and don’t enjoy looking at a man with tattoos that appear vulgar to me. And that one does.

I have a picture of a swastika in the tiles of the floor of a house in Pompeii. I’m a little sorry for and scared by people with them as tattoos. If its in a poster for a movie I assume it’s about WW2.

The swastika used to be a pretty common symbol before the rise of the Nazi party. Many US government buildings used it as an architectural accent, and there was a row of street lights in San Francisco that were decorated by swastikas.

@jackm I’m not offended by it at all. I usually don’t think twice about it. My great grandfather was, though. He rambled on about how bad it was almost every day. We are not Jewish, he was just opinionated.
I do want a swastika tattoo. I have since I saw it in 5th grade this was when my grandmother told me the meaning of the symbol when I saw it tagged on a wall. Before I knew about the Nazi association with it. I want it as a symbol of good luck. I’m just not sure that I can deal with people’s reactions to it. I really don’t want to have to explain myself repeatedly.

It’s the same with the Confederate flag. People get really offended when they find out that I have one hanging in my room, or when they see pictures of my saddle that has the flag design on it. It’s a part of history that was negative in some ways, but I’m really big on the original meaning behind things. I display it because I’m proud of my heritage and where I come from.

@rangerr Aside from attention, what would a swastika tat get you that a horseshoe or 4 leaf clover or other good luck symbol wouldn’t?

@rangerr, here are some traditional non-Nazi swastikas.

The Nazi swastika is usually non-stylized and the arms rotate counter-clockwise.

Well the Nazi Swastika is related to an important part of history, and as horrible as it was, I would certainly hope that people don’t forget or see it as a joke, whatever the context it’s in.

@rangerr I understand being proud of your heritage, and of family who may have fought for what they thought was right at the time, like in the confederate Army, BUT that flag is down right SCARY to some people. I am guessing you think people should not be afraid, because your intention is to do no harm. But, what is really important is how the minority thinks in the situation in my opinion.

When I was in college swastikas were drawn on the door of some dorm rooms in the “jewish” dorms. The local Jewish group held a meeting about it. A friend of mine asked me, “why are people so upset, it is just a drawing?” I told him, “because it is terrifying to us.” He still kind of didn’t get it I think. The confederate flag to me means people want the old south back, which involved slavery and hatred in my mind. What does the confederate flag mean to you that you want to fly it high?

<—- trying to imagine a TV producer pitching an idea of a couple of german good ole boys driving around in a volkswagon with a nazi sign on the side, Duke of Hazard style.

Try being a doctor and having a patient come in complaining of a rash related to a new tattoo. When he shows it to you, it is a Nazi tattoo. He’s a “mature” adult. What does one do…?

@shilolo I am not a doctor, rather a lower medical professional (phlebotomist and various other hats) and I know exactly what you mean. It always is a “grit your teeth moment” test of my professionalism to treat patients with these tattoos impartially. Of course, often they do not treat me impartially because that tattoo means they do not like me.

Wouldn’t a doctor be bound to treat the patient regardless of their personal views?

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard I have that picture on my bulletin board. I’ve become a fan of the look of the Jainism one.
@Likeradar I associate horse shoes with my horses and I’d rather not have a plant tattoo. The swastika is four L’s. Luck, Light, Love and Life. You just can’t get that with a clover, IMO.
@JLeslie I never said people shouldn’t be afraid. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions/fears/whatever. It’s when people jump ahead and call me racist that I get frustrated. I understand the fear, but maybe I’m just an overly proud country girl. I have family members that fought in WWII and carried that flag into battle with them.
They died with the flag, doing what they felt was right.

@rangerr Do you identify more with the confederate flag than with the American flag?

@Captain_Fantasy Well, certainly. But someone who you’ve known for years comes in showing off a brand new “I’m a hateful, racist person” tattoo expecting compassionate treatment has his own problems.There are lots of ways to treat certain rashes, some more tolerable than others….

@rangerr So you fly a Rebel flag and want to get a swastika tat. And you feel that people shouldn’t just assume that you’re a racist.
Good luck with that.

@JLeslie I’m not sure what you’re asking.

Oh, fuck. I’m done with this question.
Nevermind.

@shilolo Try being a human being and seeing someone with a rebel flag and a swastika tat… Sorry @rangerr, it’s your body and those symbols mean what they mean to you. Good luck with most people getting past them to even want to bother getting to know you. It’s just my opinion, but to me, those symbols are a HUGE flag for me to stay the hell away from someone.

It’s the people like you guys who automatically associate the symbol with racism and evil who are keeping at the “evil” status.
I’m sorry I’m a bit of a hippie and try to use the peaceful meaning behind it, but it is what it is in my mind.
I’m also sorry for assuming that you guys would be open minded enough to answer the question originally asked without being bashed right away for it.
Okay. I lied. I wasn’t done.

@rangerr raises an excellent point. The perpetuation of taboos only perpetuates the negative strength of certain symbols.

@rangerr I’m cool with keeping the swastika at evil status. You don’t have to be sorry. If you see beauty in a symbol that raises deeps emotions related to millions of people being tortured and killed, that’s up to you. I really wasn’t trying to bash you, it’s just that your thinking makes no sense at all to me.

Oh, my last post didn’t make sense. It should be ”I’m also sorry for assuming that you guys would be open minded enough for me to answer the question originally asked without being bashed right away for it.”

@rangerr Would you say this:

”It’s the people like you guys who automatically associate the symbol with racism and evil who are keeping at the “evil” status”

… if part of your family had been slaughtered in the Holocaust as had most of your people, and that symbol was used against you, personally, as hate?

All of those apply to me.

Yes. It is specifically used, as is Nazi ideology, as hate against me… in the present day. The symbol is used, today, as hate against me and so many others. Yes, neo Nazis exist and, yes, they hate to this day.

This is not a dead symbol, this is not a dead ideology. Both are very active today. This is not just history.

Whatever it means to you is what it means, I guess. But the swastika was used widely in many different cultures before WWII and it still used in other cultures where the evil connotations do not exist. Do not judge someone because they want to use the oldest recognized symbol in the world for its original and true meaning. The Nazi’s corrupted it, but everyone here (except a select few) is perpetuating that corruption. You’re giving it power over you, a power which it should not have and a power that it is not meant to have.

“The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means “good fortune” or “well-being.” The motif (a hooked cross) appears to have first been used in Neolithic Eurasia, perhaps representing the movement of the sun through the sky. To this day it is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism.” Source

So what do you think of the people all over the world who use it as a sacred symbol and who have for thousands of years?

@tragiclikebowie If that included me, I addressed that in my first post here I am not sure you saw that. :P I just want to make sure it is known that I am not one who is unaware of what you said.

”When I see one that is not a Nazi swastika, I think to myself how annoyed people who use it as a symbol of peace must be by the Nazis sullying it.

I do not automatically see a swastika and have the feelings I do when I see a Nazi one.”

The swastika when used in Nazi context is readily identifiable.

You make a good point and I wish the swastika was not automatically associated with Nazis. If I used the swastika as a symbol of peace (which is the majority of its uses), I would really be ticked.

@Arisztid I was aiming it at everyone who was jumping on @rangerr for saying her piece.

And you are correct, many other swastikas vary greatly from the Nazi stylized one. Some may not recognize it, but the inherent shape is usually there.

@Likeradar What is your point? I can ignore people with random racist tats, but when one is specifically asking for help in remedying a situation of his own making that offends me to the core, that is entirely different. Try not being so trite. Sorry.

Doctors and nurses are still human.

@tragiclikebowie I just wanted to be sure you picked it up. :)

I saw a picture of a guy with a swastika tshirt on and he was roasted for being a racist. I am not sure which version it is, but I recognized it as one of the ones used as a symbol for peace.

The Nazi version is very distinct.

@faye I am a medical professional and have had to deal with people who hate me and are highly abusive to me, I see these symbols, etc., but this is work. Everywhere I have worked has made effort to separate staff from patients racist towards the staff because it is logical. I take care of the patient until I can get out of the room or, if it is too bad, I pack up my stuff and leave if the patient is safe, then I go to the desk and bitch about it. I have gone into the parking lot and let loose before.

Regardless I do my job.

@Arisztid I know, I’m a nurse. Thank gawd for coworkers to vent with.

@Arisztid Maybe I should have said that I didn’t want the exact one that is distinctly associated with the Nazi party..

@faye Oh true that and it is good to work with people of many ethnicities because, when you get a racist, you can usually match staff to the racist. It is harder when the racist hates whites in smaller hospitals in my experience. I am always swappable since I from such a dinky minority and, even when short staffed, they will swap me after or even during rounds.

@rangerr Ok, now that makes sense. :) Thankyou for the clarification.

@Arisztid It would look a bit like the Jainism one. I really had no intentions of offending you.

@shilolo My point is that I would find it hard to be nice to anyone with a symbol strongly tied to hate on their body. I was kinda elaborating on what you said, not trying to be trite.

@rangerr I know that and thankyou much. I understand and agree with what you are saying. Here is the one I was thinking of.

@rangerr oh d’oh that is just a different version of the same one.

I am getting older, much into the age of where fist fighting is probably the worst idea ever but if I catch someone sporting a swastika tattoo on their chest it automatically means fist-fight for me.
I grew up fighting nazi assholes in the city and watching a few of my friends get really hurt, stabbed and shot over it.
Anyone that brands themselves with a symbol of hate towards anyone and wears it with a smirk deserves a bit of a smack down or at least someone who is going to try it.

I also read above in the thread that it is people like “us” that are keeping the symbol of hate alive when we pre-judge and do not look beyond the surface of the symbol. Here is all I have to say to that:
May 20th, 1920 was the first day the Nazi Party adopted the use of the symbol. I am sure that they too used the symbol for all that it symbolizes. They also had no plan of doing anything but good for other people. They only killed about 6 million Jews. That’s not a lot. Why would anyone ever associate a swastika with hate? To do so would just be ignorant and absurd right? Let me touch upon the way they were killed.
1. Mostly in over crowded Polish cities from starvation and disease caused by gun shots if not killed by a gun.
2. Worked to death, literally.
3. Large scale open air shootings.
4. Gassed to death in “death camps.”
This is why people will always associate the swastika with hate. Also the fact that hate crimes still exist and the fact that Nazi followers still exist to this day.
To ignore this symbol as a hate sign and accept it for its original meaning is what is most ignorant and selfish.

@judochop The thing is, if you accept it for all the hate that it represents, you must accept all the love it also represents. Judging a book by it’s cover will leave a lot of good things out of one’s life.

As a designer/artist I have to say that:

It is such a shame because the shape itself is very cool. But you obviously can’t use it in your designs for the same reason/s given above.

@judochop Look at what @rangerr said here

I could get bent over you having read the “whole thread” and still only mentioning the Jews when I had said this

I choose to not because I am used to it.

You might want to take a better look at the thread.

@OperativeQ No I do not. I do not have to accept the symbol for anything except for what I know of it. Just because the symbol is alive and well in India and because it is sometimes used still in Asian countries for a religion that I do not practice. It also was used by the Native Americans for different reasons. A fact of the symbol is this, that everyone who used it in the past and continues to use it today is hoping that it will bring them luck and good fortune.

@Arisztid I am not taking sides or siding with anyone on here. Rangerr is a friend of mine and yeah, I disagree with her ideas. I do not know you at all but I agree with yours….It does not matter. I have personally felt the effects of this symbol and I strongly believe that looking past its symbology of hate is just as ignorant as using it for hate.

@judochop You sound like a religious person defending they’re religion. Basically, you’re saying that despite evidence to the contrary, it’s only an evil symbol.

@OperativeQ
What I said was “To ignore this symbol as a hate sign and accept it for its original meaning is what is most ignorant and selfish.”
You can feel free to make all the assimilations want but it still does not change my mind. You are still defending a symbol that once stood for taking the lives of 6 million people. What’s next? Are you going to tell me that it’s stupid to own a gun in my house because the police will keep me safe? Seems like we are headed down the road of getting nothing answered.

@judochop I agree with you regarding the Nazi swastika but I think people should make more of an effort to realize that not all are the Nazi version. A lot of people do not know that the Nazi version, as a hate symbol, is very alive and well along with the neo Nazi movement.

I think that “not all swastikas are Nazi” is what @rangerr was getting at and that I agree with.

6 million are the Jews… they were not the only deaths, not the only ones in the actual Final Solution, and everyone in those camps died the same. Gods I should not get into these threads. I always regret it.

@Arisztid
The swastika was not orginaly a Nazi symbol. It was adopted by them, yes I know. I’ve studied well on my history.

@judochop A slippery slope argument? I can say this and it could be as true: “To ignore this symbol as a luck sign and accept it for it’s Nazi meaning is most ignorant and selfish”

And a symbol didn’t kill anyone. A nazi isn’t defined by a symbol to me. A nazi is defined by his/her actions.

@OperativeQ
Wrong, A nazi is defined by his or her symbol. Their actions just make them a murderer or guilty of hate crime.
That was the point in using the “symbol.”

@judochop So a person with wearing a yarmulke is automatically Jewish? Or a person smoking weed for spiritual reason is automatically Rasta?

Like MLK said, “Judge a person by the content of they’re character.”

@OperativeQ
Your right, I’ve changed my mind. Why would non-jewish folks sport a yarmulke? Oh because they want to mis-use the use of symbolism. It happens all the time.

The swastika is ruined. If you want to try and bring it back and restore it to its original meaning, then feel free. But I am willing to bet that your throat gets sore from all the explaining your going to have to do to all those “ignorant and selfish” people out there.

I have jewish ancestry and I am German on both sides of my family. Hell yes the symbol evokes bad feelings in me. It’s unfortunate that such symbols have become negative, but it’s the reality of it. I grew up in the deep south and I absolutely hate the confederate flag. I have family that has fought in wars as well, but I don’t believe they would want me to idolize a symbol that has sparked such hatred now. The fighting isn’t over. The hatred is still around us, so to think of those symbols as anything other than evil is something I cannot understand.

@OperativeQ The problem with the Nazi swastika is that, other than in the movies and history, I have never known of it to not be associated with hate.

It was born in hate and is used in hate to this day. Literally I have never seen it used other than in a historical context, the movies, or some dumb schoolyard yuck it up as other than hate. There are a lot of online neo Nazis who would, if they stared one of us hated people in the eyes, would never utter a sound. But, these internet neo Nazis are using it online as hate.

No symbol is automatically hate. It is association with behaviour that makes it “mean” hate. That symbol means hate like the word “dog” means one of these

Let me ask you this: other than movies, schoolyard stupidity, and history lessons, where have you seen that symbol used other than hate? In those movies, history lessons, and stupid schoolyard garbage, it still was born out of hate.

@Arisztid @judochop Just because you were culturally conditioned to a thought doesn’t make it right.

@OperativeQ
Have you picked up a history book in the last one hundred years? I don’t think we were the only two “culturally conditioned” to think the swastika is a hate symbol. I’d love to hear you say that to 6 million Jews.

@OperativeQ That’s nice.

Somewhere in this thread I think a person brought up flags that are thought of as hateful as part of their heritage. Sadly for people who are proud of their Confederate heritage, a ton of assholes have trod on their flag. Not all people like this are racist… I stayed with a proud Confederate family for awhile and can tell you that firsthand.

Now, I agree with that regarding the Confederate flag. It was not born out of hate and it symbolizes a huge chunk of American history.

Not so with the Nazi swastika. It was only from one small chunk of German history. If I was German and wanted to use an old flag to symbolize myself, I would use one of these that is not the Nazi flag. The other German flags were not born out of a regime that was only interested in one thing.

@judochop Or millions of Gypsies. We do not like it much either.

@Arisztid I’m not defending the “nazi swastika”. I’m defending the idea that a symbol is somehow responsible for how it’s used.

@judochop In my history class, I was informed that the Swastika was originally an Indian symbol for luck and it was corrupted by the Nazis. And I doubt those 6 million Jews would blame a symbol for their deaths over those that actually killed them.

@OperativeQ They may not blame the symbol, but I doubt they’d be alright with seeing it.

@OperativeQ
Good ahead and do work. Bring it back man….DO it for the the symbol. Fuck all those dead people. They don’t deserve to see it rest.

@paintmeblue @judochop Both of you are missing my point.

@OperativeQ I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that everything from images to words symbolize things. We are talking in symbols. There would be no way we could communicate without them because we would be at the point and grunt stage.

No symbol is, in and of itself, racist/not racist/etc. However, it is like words. As I said, the word Dog brings this to mind. This symbol brings Nazis to mind and has only been used in that context.

Symbolism, including words, is how we communicate. Again, no word or symbol is intrinsically one way or another… it is the association, especially long term and if it is the only association with that symbol. This is part of the basic nature of communication.

@OperativeQ I am not missing any point. I just refuse to be a part of your point.

@OperativeQ You can’t just change the connotation behind the symbol! It just doesn’t work that way. I’m not going to assume a person wearing it, or any other well-known symbol of hate, is racist/prejudice but I am still going to wonder why in the world a person would choose to have those symbols anywhere near them knowing the context behind them.

6 million people were bludgeoned with a tire iron. Would you expect them to blame Jesus on the Cross?

@OperativeQ O I am sorry, did that really happen? And did it happen in the last 100 years? Like I said…..To bring it back is selfish but do what ever you’d like.
People all the time get tattoos to remember family and friends who have passed on. Why not get one in honor of the 6 million dead jews. Good luck with that.

@paintmeblue Yep.

@OperativeQ I am going to try one more time and, if this does not work, well, I tried.

Your last post did not make much sense to me so I am going back to the language analogy.

If we obliterated the meaning of all symbols, we would sit here, slack jawed, staring at a screen without understanding any of these odd things called “words.”

If we obliterated all meaning of all visual symbols other than words, if we did not know what this meant, there would be a lot of mess.

This is basic communication. We use symbols.

@judochop are my people chopped liver despite some 80% of us being exterminated in the Final Solution? Are the rest, not in the Final Solution, chopped liver? Why just the Jews?

@Arisztid I am reading about your people right now. I’ve never known much about the history beyond the slaughter of the the Jews.

@judochop Oh ok. Not much is known about us and the numbers are wrong… I am going to PM you something I wrote that is a bit more complete with my sources cited.

@judochop I am not arguing over whether the Holocaust happened or not. I’m arguing over whether a symbol is to blame for people’s actions. What I gave you was an example of why it isn’t right to blame a symbol for people’s actions.

@Arisztid All symbols, including words, have a great variety of meaning. Take your example, “dog” for well… example. A dog could mean a horny male human, or Stella. Also, I’m sure you’ve heard of dogs being eaten in the Orient (whether it’s true or not, I dunno). Also, if you’re in Australia, don’t give a thumbs up…

And FYI to everyone, I have nothing against Jewish people at all. My arguments are in no way denying the Holocaust and/or what a tragedy it was. Nor am I defending the actions of the Nazis.

@OperativeQ
Ok, Ok…..So maybe if I put a spin on this we can end it. So if your country (assuming you are happy where you live) started going in to other countries and rounding up the people, gassing them to death, putting them in fields for target practice and starving them to death all the meanwhile they are throwing the peace sign in their face and waving it around on EVERYTHING. Flags, plates, napkins, forks, spoons, glasses, hats, every item of clothing, shoes, rifles, car treads….Would you still walk around flashing the peace sign to your neighbors?

I can’t help but wonder if the people on this thread who aren’t offended by the symbol were Jewish if their opinions would change….

@judochop I don’t know. I’m not saying nor have I said that Jewish people should accept Nazism. I could tell you if I was in the situation I described, I wouldn’t blame be peace sign for all that was happening.

@Likeradar My apologies. I misunderstood.

@OperativeQ True regarding dog.

However, what other than Nazi does this mean?

I mean, literally, what else does it mean?

@paintmeblue I am not too happy with swastikas either. As I told Judochop I am of one of the two peoples who were in the Final Solution itself and, as I said earlier, some of my direct family was slaughtered. The only reason they did not get the rest is because they headed for the hills.. literally..

@OperativeQ But it isn’t about blaming the symbol! I blame the people, of course, but the symbol does represent hatred. It represents my ancestors being tortured and killed. That is the problem. And still I wonder if your opinion would be different if you’d been affected personally.

@OperativeQ I am going to expand on what @paintmeblue said since I am not making my point. Then this is the last time I try.

Think about that symbol meaning the torture and slaughter of your ancestors. To both @paintmeblue and myself, that is what it means.

Furthermore, it means, at least to me, most other Gypsies, and most Jewish people that I know, continued harassment, badgering, vandalism, for some attacks… right now in the present day.

When that symbol is displayed, it signifies the genocide of our peoples, murder of our families, and current day hell from neo Nazis.

My final answer for tonight:

A symbol is just a symbol. A symbol like the Swastika (which has many more meanings for much longer than and other to Nazism) has to have all of it’s meanings taken into thought when judging someone that uses it in all of it’s meanings. Otherwise, you’re keeping yourself ignorant.

Also, people act at their own accord. A symbol only has meaning in context. If you just look at a swastika without context, thinking of just Nazism isn’t the correct thing to do.

All in all, a symbol is just an image. And without context, it’s usually a meaningless one. I just think one shouldn’t assume context.

And like I said above @Arisztid @paintmeblue I sympathize with Jewish people in WWII. I am not defending Nazis in any way, shape, or form. I’m just saying that a symbol can’t be blamed for the actions of people. That’s all.

@OperativeQ I understand what you are saying but jeese, you are not understanding part of what I am saying. I am not Jewish and my people were in the Final Solution equal to the Jews. I know that you are not trying to annoy me but, sheesh. It is a symbol of slaughter to lots of people… not just the Jews.

@OperativeQ A symbol without context as you put is just scribble.

@judochop Exactly. And realize that the Swastika has more than one context.

@OperativeQ Dude, I stated that in my second thread. 1500 words ago.

@judochop I call truce then. I’m too tired to argue right now anyways.

♥☮ please.

Things, words, symbols, change and evolve. The fact is the swastika is now associated with hate and genocide. No matter what you may want it to mean, or what the literal beginnings of the word or symbol is, it is impossible to ignore current connotations. Take the word gay. How many of you are using it for happy lately? How many people under the age of 30 even know it ever meant happy and had nothing to do with being homosexual? I remember on some thread arguing with someone who was using antisemite to mean Arabs and Jews. Someone had misunderstood her intent because she used the literal meaning of semite, rather than its common usage of today.

I just think you cannot expect people not to react negatively to a swastika, or at least wonder if you are a hateful, neo nazi, white supremist. Just sayin’. I say the same think to young men who dress like hoodlums…pick your pants up and look people in the eye, smile, say hello, if you don’t want people to assume you are going to rob the store. What you present matters, it is not just what is inside of your head.

I go back to the minority, and his perception. I have to assume @rangerr that you are white and live in a place where you are surrounded by people similar to you. Correct me if I am wrong. You are probably in the majority where you live, and maybe have never had the experience of worrying that people hate you and want to kill you. Being Jewish, I grew up knowing this all too well. The few times I have been to a synagogue, I always think when sitting there if someone wants to blow up a bunch of Jews, here we are in one place. When I took my husband’s surname I thought, if I am ever on a hijacked plane I am the first one dead I have a Jewish surname too, but his really screams Jewish from the middle east. I would assume it is similar for blacks, the fear, having your antenna up, kind of always watching your back.

I do not walk around paranoid, but I am never surprised that bad things happen, and that people will hate for reasons I cannot understand, even be willing to kill.

How would you feel if someone was walking around with a tattoo of the twin towers and an islamic symbol next to it? 20 years ago it could be interpreted as someone who loves NY and happens to be Muslim.

It makes the vast majority of Germans extremely uncomfortable.

It’s associated with killing Jews, killing homosexuals, killing people with mental diseases, killing communists and so forth, and being overall responsible for the death of over 60 million people. It’s associated with one of the most perverse ideologies ever invented by humankind. It’s also associated with the total destruction of hundreds of beautiful German cities and towns.

Disclaimer: I didn’t read majority of the answers on this thread, so sorry for repeats.

This Q reminds me when I was in high school and just doodling in class and drawing swastikas on my notebook. The people sitting next to me freaked out. I tried to calmly explain it’s an Indian religious symbol, one which is still drawn in India alllll the time. So I’m sorry, but I’m Hindu and I shall continue to draw them whenever I like because I still associate them with their original true meaning. Most people aren’t aware of this meaning though, so this once again comes back to people needing to educate themselves before making any judgments.

@PnL – That’s the problem with symbols and signals. Take hitchhiking for example. Signaling method in one country can be an offensive gesture in another country. How to deal with the problem? Stick with the majority customs of a country. Which unfortunately means Hindus have to be mindful when visiting Germany and Germans have to be mindful when visiting India.

@mattbrowne Sure, but when not in Germany and India, can we all just be a little more open minded instead of being so quick to judge?

@PnL In the US there are too many Jews and too much media, movies, reminders, to not put us in the same category as Germany or Poland for that matter (90% of Polish Jews were killed) AND neo nazi skin head types still embrace the swastika, so the meaning is kept alive. Maybe be angry at those hateful people for continuing the sentiments of the third reich (I mean the neo-nazi’s not the Jews and other who want you to remember the horrors so they are never repeated). I understand your frustration, if the Star of David was turned into a hateful symbol, it would be hard for me to accept it, but that is simply how it is.

@JLeslie and @PnL – Yes, though I would add a few countries where large number of Nazi victims are still alive. This includes the United States, but also all the European countries that greatly suffered during Nazi invasion and occupation, above all Poland, Ukraine, Russia and other eastern European countries.