Social Question

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Do you think you (or other people you know) would be more freaked out about your (their) kid being queer or being trans?

Asked by Simone_De_Beauvoir (38857 points ) June 27th, 2011

Generally speaking, people around me here in NYC (my bio family doesn’t count) are pretty accepting of queer folks but still have trouble accepting trans folks. I was thinking about my kids growing up and being gay or trans (my boss just told me her two sons are gay and it got me thinking) and how my family would handle it and I thought about my oldest’s bio-dad and he’s pretty open but then I thought ‘but not about trans stuff’ and wondered what it is about wanting to stay away from or change one’s assigned gender or sex that makes people more uncomfortable than finding out their kid likes to be with the same sex or is bi or fluid or whatever? Do you think it likely that people conceive of transsexualism or transgenderism as MORE ‘against nature’ than homosexuality or queerness?

Just thinking, what are you thinking? Think of your kids coming out as gay or trans? Which (if at all, obviously to many it wouldn’t matter either way) makes you a little bit more scared? Of course the kid can be both gay and trans, just in general. Welcome to my mom’s life – of course she generally ignores that I’m gender non conforming but is a bit more recepting (though not actually supportive) of my being queer.

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63 Answers

lucillelucillelucille's avatar

When my sister’s two step-kids came out,it was a non-event…for my sister that is.It just didn’t matter to her if they were gay or not.If they they said they wanted to change their gender,her reaction might be different.I tend to think not though.She was always more concerned with their well being and GPAs. ;)
She is a good mom to them.
That will be the next thing I ask her when I see her

SuperMouse's avatar

I would be fine with my child being either one, queer or trans. I would probably be more frightened for my child having to deal with being trans because of all the medical procedures associated with gender reassignment, the challenge of living life feeling like one was born in the wrong body, and because the social stigma of being a transgender individual is still much more intense than that of being homosexual. My only fears surrounding these issues are about what my child would have to face. Of course I would be there to support them every step of the way.

JilltheTooth's avatar

It seems that the majority of people that I know are way more comfortable with queer than with trans, the concept of radical physical alteration really freaks many people out. As far as how I feel, I want my kid to be who she is, however that plays out. I’d be more worried about her being trans purely from the standpoint that if she opted for a surgical transition it would carry the dangers of surgery.
Basically what @SuperMouse just said but she types faster. :-P

Seelix's avatar

I like to think that I’d be 100% cool with any sort of sexuality issue when it comes to my kids. I think having a trans child would be harder on me, but not because I’m less accepting of trans people. It’s more of an issue, per se – the idea and cost of surgery and recovery from surgery (if they chose to go that route) and the emotional toll it’d take. It would be hard for me to watch my child have to deal with those issues.

I do think that queer is generally more accepted than trans, because the vast majority of people can identify with sexual attraction, but relatively few can identify with the feeling of being born in the “wrong” body.

Jude's avatar

If they were to come to me and say “I’m trans”, I would give them a huge hug and say to them, that I would be there for them and support them (anyway that I could). My family accepts the fact that i am gay (that took 4 years), but, someone coming out as trans in our family? Not sure that would go down very well at first (sadly).

I know for them, coming out as trans would be difficult. People can be cruel and ignorant. But, I would be there for my child and reassure them that they are not alone and that I love them. Living a lie (closeted); what a sad, sad life. Been there, done that. They don’t need to go through that.

jonsblond's avatar

I don’t know anyone in my life who would be freaked out if our children came to us with this. We have a very accepting and loving family, and support everyone who is included in our family. One of my sisters and my aunt are both lesbians, and my brother-in-law is gay. The only person in our life who had a problem was my father-in-law concerning my brother-in-law. He isn’t in our life, so he doesn’t concern us.

Aethelflaed's avatar

I’d be cool with both, but I’d rather they be gay than trans (because that’s totally how it works…). With gay, that’s no big deal, no internal strife necessary. Trans, by definition, means that you aren’t happy and content with what you were given (or what society feels you should be), so then my kid would not be the happy part of “happy and healthy”.

wundayatta's avatar

My great uncle was trans and it caused him enormous problems. I think I would be much more concerned if my child was trans. These days, it’s not as hard to be queer as it was in the time of Stonewall. It’s not so dangerous and more people are out. There are not as many places where you take your life in your hands if you come out.

If you’re trans, then I think you are probably living with a lot of pain. Imagine being born in the wrong body! You don’t feel right. You’re constantly thinking in a way your body doesn’t work well with. It must be awful.

So my concern would be for my child. I hope they would explore options to get out of their pain that would be easier and quicker to accomplish than changing genders. Would living as someone of the opposite sex be enough? What do you need to feel comfortable in the body you were born with?

It must be a very difficult thing to live with. I would trust my child that this is what they want, and I wouldn’t try to dissuade them, but I would try to see if they could find other options that are not as physically invasive.

Leanne1986's avatar

I can’t imagine having a problem with either but I would be worried for their safety because of what I have seen my gay and/or trans friends go through at times. I would make it clear to my children from the beginning (regardless of sexuality) that people can be incredibly cruel and, whilst they should never hide who they are for the sake of others, they will need to watch their backs from time to time. My family are not always the most accepting to begin with but the majority of them come round with time.

In general I feel that being gay is more accepted than being trans. I’m not sure why though.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I would be absolutely shocked, to say the least. It would take me more than a moment to get my head around it. I’m not sure I would believe it, at first. Not because I don’t believe it is possible. But because my sons have never shown any indication whatsoever that they are anything else but hetero. Or if they have shown indications, I am completely oblivious to them.

Upon digesting the news, I would hug him, and tell him that I loved him and wanted his happiness to be assured. I would advise him to lead his life to the fullest. I would support his decision and defend him against anyone who would persecute his decision.

I have no idea how our extended family would react. It’s never even been close to happening. At least not that I’m aware of.

My pride in my children would remain unshaken.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I’d be totally supportive. Out of my entire family, that would make one of us that was supportive.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Aethelflaed I think being gay has a lot of internal strife attached for many many people. Perhaps we’re in a time when we think it shouldn’t more and more but that’s not reality.

Aster's avatar

“Queer” as you put it I could accept. That is, after a few weeks of being in shock. I’d be ok. Transsexual would be harder because by now I’m accustomed to thinking of them as women. Then I’d have to start calling them “Frank” or something and it would be confusing. But anything is better than drug abuse. I mean, if they’re born gay then God made them gay. They’d still be nice, good people and I’d still love them.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Aster “But anything is better than drug abuse” – that’s the spirit, :)

ucme's avatar

The wife has two grown up kids from a previous marriage, as well as two of our own. Her son, came out about 5 years ago & it barely caused a ripple. He’s my mate as well as a stepson & his sexuality or indeed that of my own kids is of no great concern. Basically it’s all good in the hood :¬)

Neizvestnaya's avatar

Homo’ wouldn’t be a big deal (or surprise) for anyone in my families but trans would be tough for them to get a mental hold on, probably because the issues of body image and possible surgeries/modifications. To them, homo’ is easy because everything stays “natural”.

cookieman's avatar

I wouldn’t be “freaked out” by either as I’ve had enough personal experience with both (I’m admittedly more familiar with “queer” folk than “trans”, but I’ve known a handful of “trans”, so I’m not totally green.)

I would be more concerned and worried for my child if they were “trans” because society’s acceptance for “trans” folk is much lower compared to “queer”, in my experience. They’ll have a rougher road of it, presumedly for the rest of their lives – and who wants that kind of hurt for their child?

I have few worries if she’s “queer” as the acceptance level (least here in the Boston area) is pretty high comparatively. Judging by my “queer” friends and relatives, I think she’ll be just fine.

Regardless, my wife and I would love her and support her either way (although I may have to smack a few people for her along the way). She’s still my Boopachetta no matter what.

Frankly, I’m more interested in her becoming a kind, thoughtful, productive person.

PS: I’m quoting “queer” and “trans” to denote your words. Personally, I prefer “gay” and the full-versions “transvestite” or “transexual”. But it’s your question.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@cprevite Transvestite is a small portion of the trans world and so is transsexual – I use trans because it’s a better umbrella term.

cookieman's avatar

@Simone_De_Beavoir: I understand; just personal preference. I prefer specifics. I’d say my daughter is Chinese, not Asian (although both are accurate). Know-what-I-mean?

But I do like umbrellas. Especially with nice wood handles. :^)

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

I’d be supportive of my daughters’ decisions about their own sexuality, whether they told me they were lesbians or wanted to remove their breasts and and acquire a penis… they would still be my children and nothing would make me stop loving them.

_zen_'s avatar

Trans.

I have thought about it and would definately accept my children coming out – if that were to happen. I have seen people come out at all kinds of ages – so I am prepared to “deal” with it if and when it happens. After all, it’s not a choice.

I understand that no-one would want to be trapped in the wrong body. I watched an interview with Chaz Bono recently, he is very articulate. It might be harder for me, but that too, I would understand and do my best not to alienate my child – and help him through it. My love for my children is endless, limitless and unconditional – in the real, classic sense.

zenvelo's avatar

It would not bother me if either scenario arose. I would be more worried about one of my kids being trans, mostly because it is a much harder road both in society and psychologically.

I would also encourage them to get tons of counseling before an operation.

YARNLADY's avatar

No one in my family is freaked out by this, but we are simply concerned for the child’s future well being, with so much prejudice in the world.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I am always surprised by how open people seem to be (esp. on Fluther) and yet they speak of prejudice all around – I just can’t understand how we can all be so welcoming but prejudice is other people. It’s not possible, is it? If all of us say no to prejudice and raise our kids that way, shouldn’t it decrease? Or are the many of you above fooling yourselves? Just to play devil’s advocate.

YARNLADY's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir It really is different on Fluther, we are a small sample, and not a random cross section. Plus the ones who answer are a small subset of the collective, as well.

SuperMouse's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I feel compelled to echo @YARNLADY‘s sentiments. There is no way one can consider Fluther a random sample. For instance, here are some statistics regarding theism in America. Only 1.6% of respondents identified themselves as atheist, and only 2.4% as agnostic, while over 78% identified as Christian. I don’t think it would be a leap to say that here on Fluther those figures could very well be reversed. I know that as a theist I am in the minority on this site. I chose these numbers to make my point because faith more than likely plays a huge roll in how people think about sexuality and gender issues.

I also think that with all the open minded responses in this thread, people who disagree might avoid responding.

JilltheTooth's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: what the mouse and knitter said. No way we are a random sampling, and if I felt differently, having been here for almost a year, I can guarantee I wouldn’t answer on this thread for fear of being crucified. Instead of being a bit cynical at the number of positive posts here, be delighted that so many chose to answer this in a positive manner.

Aster's avatar

I agree that this is an unusually positive set of opinions for simone’s question. When I think of my relatives and how they’d feel about either scenario they sure wouldn’t agree with my feelings. I’m talking strong prejudice, simone, against either scenario. But I still think time will change how they feel. Lots and lots of time.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir From what I’ve witnessed, prejudice is decreasing, albeit not as quickly as some of us would like to see. I still harbor a few of my own, but they have nothing to do with the LGBT community.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Well, then…I really wish people who would freak out would answer. I will not crucify anyone, that would be never the intention in a question like this.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Give me some time to call up Mom and a few of my Christian friends.

Neizvestnaya's avatar

When I say no one would be much surprised, that’s true but it’s also true we’d much rather our family kids not be homo’ or trans/queer because the world is such a hard place. We’ve enough homo’s in our family to back that up.

KatawaGrey's avatar

See, if my child came to me and said that s/he hated some large aspect of his/her body, whether it is sex or some other physical aspect, then I think I would hurt for my child. I do not think there is anything wrong with being transsexual, but I feel as if pre-op transsexuals are stuck with a body that is their greatest enemy.

Before I left school, I made friends with a boy who is physically female. One thing we talked about is how if gender roles were not so rigidly tied to physical sex, he would probably not feel the need to change his body so drastically.

It would hurt me if my child hated his/her body, which is essentially what a transsexual desirous of surgery feels at least, that’s how it seems to me. However, if my physically female child came to me and said, “Mom, I think I am more comfortable expressing the set of gender characteristics more closely associated with males,” it would be a non-issue. If my child wanted surgery to get a different body, I would want to explore all options available to us before surgery because, quite frankly, I wouldn’t want my child to have medically unnecessary surgery. Maybe that sounds silly or even cavalier in regards to trans-sexuality, but I would prefer my child to be unhappy for a time with his/her body but still be alive and healthy, rather than possibly dead or deformed from failed surgery.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey I agree with that friend of yours and do hope for a future where people would rather see gender go away than their body parts. Many trans people don’t hate their bodies and many non-trans people do. I think people have some misconceptions about trans people. Many of us have no issues with our bodies, just with what others expect of our bodies. True story.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: My apologies, I always thought transsexuality referred to people who felt they should have different sex organs than those they were born with which is why I said they “hate” their bodies.

Can you please more fully explain what you mean by the word “trans”?

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I just sent your question to a Christian minister and a Christian missionary, both who have children. I’ll let you know as soon as I hear back from them.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey By the word trans I mean anyone who doesn’t agree with the sex or gender given to them at birth and through rearing. Because of this disagreement, they may or may not want a different body because their body doesn’t feel right OR because others aren’t reading them correctly. This means that many of my friends go on Testosterone NOT because they want to be a man (if they’re born female) but because they want to be seen as less than a woman, read as androgynous, etc. There are as many trans experiences as there are trans people, I always say. What people normally get to see in the media are stories of ‘traditional’ trans people who simply MUST hate their body because then people will agree that they just HAVE to have srs and support. It’s too bad really because ALL people need support when transgressing gender and so what if they don’t want to be either of the options?

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: Ah, okay, gotcha. This is a classic case of misunderstood semantics again. When I hear the word transsexual, I think of a “trans”-lation from one “sex” to another. I can see how shortening the word to “trans” would mean a “trans”-lation from one idea of gender or sexuality to another.

I have many issues with the semantics associated with sexuality. The way I see it, if we are going to bother to put labels on these kinds of things, I think the language should be as precise as possible. When I say “transsexual”, as I stated above, I mean someone who wants a different sex than that which they were born with. If I had my druthers, then what you have described yourself as would be “transgenderal” and not “transsexual” as your personal views have nothing to do with your sex, but with your perceived gender. From what I understand, you have no problem being female, but you have a problem with being identified as a woman, which is an entirely different thing.

Does that make any sense? I’m very tired from this weekend.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey As far as my friends and I use the term trans, transsexual people fall into the umbrella. They would be unhappy with their physical parts in some way and want to change them but they don’t necessarily always feel they’re in the ‘wrong body’ or ‘hate themselves’. So a transsexual is under the umbrella, so am I, so is someone who has a third gender, etc. And I do have a problem with being categorized as female. I don’t mind how my body is, however.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: Okay, my curiosity is piqued! Why do you have a problem with being called female? It is a reference to your physical sex, much like “brunette” or “blonde” are references to hair color and “tall” and “short” are references to height.

Honestly not trying to be snarky. I have a tendency to barrage someone with questions when I do not understand the subject.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey I don’t mind the questions. In a way, I believe sex has been constructed as well just like gender. Two categories have been legitimized and reinforced (esp. in the past couple of centuries) for specific reasons and much of that led to the horrors experienced by intersex people. So I rejected that categorization as necessary as well. It’s not necessary to me. I get that that’s the category my body fits but it serve no use to me. It seems to be important to others though. Some books by Anne Fausto-Sterling will be helpful if you want to know more.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

The Christian minister with two sons responded: I have no idea how others would react whether they are people of faith or not. As for me, I would want to be as supportive as I can with who they are.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I didn’t know what his response would be, but after hearing it, it certainly is one reason to maintain our friendship.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

The friend responded back stating that he really didn’t understand the question. I explained it and then added my own concerns from a more general sense:
We have a fair amount of members on this site that are religious, and no week goes by where someone posts a question about how wrong it is to be a member of the LGBT community due to Bible quotes.

What they often cite are small portions of a bigger story. They also do not take into account that some meanings of a particular word have been misinterpreted, either by the translator or the minister or even in their own mind.

If I may ask, have you ever approached the topic of homosexuality with your congregations or an individual member of one? If so, how did you handle it?

Here is his response:
I had a feeling that was the source of that question. Unfortunately many Christians have given people good reason to think that we’re closed minded and bigoted. Yes I have addressed issues of homosexuality both in preaching and with individuals. I dealt with it much the way you just stated; that the Bible as an ancient text does not deal with the modern phenomenon of a committed same sex relationship. For Biblical writers homosexuality was synonymous with promiscuity and adultery since it was most often an extra-marital affair. The idea of two same sex partners in a marriage relationship was unknown to people in the 1st century and before. Further, I talk about how God’s consistent response to those who have been left out and excluded is to bring in and include. That is the “larger story”. There are two ways that we read scripture in my tradition. A word of Law and a Word of Gospel. Law is that word that convicts us, gospel is the word that frees. The primary use of the law is not to exclude or tell us what not to do, but, rather to convince us that we are dependent upon God for forgiveness and grace. As such, who I choose to love and be loved by is hardly the greatest concern for God. That I’ve failed to love all too often is. Hope that helps.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Pied_Pfeffer: You have the most awesome friends.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Pied_Pfeffer Well that’s good, thanks for posting that. Although I’m not into his whole ‘sex is bad unless it’s during marriage’ thing but I’ll take what I can get from the religious community.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: Not all of us in the religious community have the same ideas about sex.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

^^ What she said.

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir ”...his whole ‘sex is bad unless it’s during marriage’ thing”? I’m not seeing that in his message.

Since the previous post, I asked him if he would perform a wedding ceremony for a same-sex couple if it was permitted where he lives in the US. He said, “Yes.”

Based upon his answer to my next question, “Would you perform a ceremony if the couple was not Christian?”, there is a disclaimer. (I asked this because Mom would really like it if the SO and I did this after we marry through a civil service.) His response was, “Tough question. If it were done in a spirit of openness to the possibility of faith, I would be willing to do it. If it’s purely to satisfy the desires of Mom, I would probably beg off.”

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey Of course not, but who pushes money around to affect people negatively – not the likes of you who believe in equality. @Pied_Pfeffer I didn’t say that was his message, his message was great but I won’t say ‘awww’ just because finally a single person in a position of power at church says something non homophobic.

Look, I know how it comes off sounding but sometimes it must be said: we have not been welcomed within the religious community (of course, not by all) as trans or queer folks. That is not about being anti-religious, that is about stating my reality.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: You have not been welcomed by certain religious communities. I know many religious individuals who don’t care what or who is in your pants as long as you’re hurting no one and living well. If it is not fair for the “religious community” to make blanket statements about trans and queer individuals, then it is equally unfair for trans and queer individuals to make blanket statements about the “religious community.” Just because I and @WillWorkForChocolate and @Pied_Pfeffer‘s minister friend believe in God does not mean we are mindless automatons that believe what a few highly vocal individuals believe. If you want tolerance and acceptance for your beliefs and ideas, then you must be tolerant and accepting of those beliefs and ideas that you do not necessarily agree with. I’m not hurting you by believing in God as you are not hurting me by doing whatever it is that you do.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey Perhaps I should not have made a blanket statement being that there are millions of people within religious communities but that is the only thing I will concede. The rest of it, the homophobia due to religion or because of religion or whatever excuse, I will NOT tolerate and I truly genuinely do not think that means I am against religion.

And this is why I rarely state the above – because when someone states that the religious community is homophobic (which it so often is, more than the atheist community), everyone thinks it’s time to say what you say, to defend god’s kids and the like as if stating reality is undoubtedly discrimination. You must be careful not to conflate the two. There is hating someone because they’re religious which I’ve never done and there is hating someone because they’re homophobic and using religion as an excuse. At least to me there is a difference.

Oh and finally, I do not agree to equate religious beliefs with one’s sexuality and/or gender identity. Your belief in a God is a belief – my sexuality or gender is not a belief in the same way. So you can’t just say tolerate other’s beliefs when they’re not tolerating my very
personhood. I call bullshit.

Oh and another thing (cause this makes me real pissed off here) – why does the burden all of a sudden fall on the embittered activist (that’s me) to tolerate god knows what? Here’s the difference between me who’s basing her dislike for the religious (some, again) on experience but they’re basing their dislike of me on hearsay and words in books. I’m tired of having to be tolerant inherently when I see no such attempts made by those I’m supposed to tolerate.

KatawaGrey's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: I am honestly surprised by your answer. You are very worried about the precision of language when it comes to sexuality yet you throw precision of language aside in other circumstances. No the “religious community” at large is not homophobic. Some religious communities are homophobic. Yes, a large portion of the religious community at large is homophobic, but you cannot expect for those of us who are not among those communities to let it lie when you claim the whole institution of religion or spiritual belief is homophobic. The loudest of the believers are not often the nicest or the most accepting. There are far more quiet, far more accepting believers who are not on the news or your loud next door neighbors. Also, how is religious based homophobia worse than non-religious based? How is it less scummy and ignorant for someone to have thought about non-standard sexuality on their own, without religion, and decided that it’s an abomination? Furthermore, if someone comes at me saying, “All believers are homophobic,” I’m not going to want to listen to anything that person has to say. As a member of a group who is often shat on by another group atheists why should I listen your grievances and your cries for understanding and equality when you are discriminating against me? Instead of deciding that all religious folks are homophobes, take a little time to get to know those of us who do not care what you do if it does not hurt anyone.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@KatawaGrey I did not claim the whole institution of religion or spiritual belief is homophobic. I further did not claim that religious based homophobia is better or worse than non-religious based homophobia – I said there is less homophobia within the atheist community and I believe that wholeheartedly (not that there isn’t ANY homophobia). I also wasn’t asking you as an atheist to not shit on trans people. I was asking to not shit on trans people in general and that had nothing to do with religion, overall. I also KNOW a lot of people who are religious as there are many in the queer communities so don’t make any further assumptions. If this is a trigger topic for you, let’s drop it. I haven’t said half of what you attribute to me.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Okay, okay. So let’s just agree to say that there are individuals within the “religious community” who openly accept gay and trans people. More than some would think, probably. I have a very dear friend who is planning to have several surgeries to become a woman. As a “Christian”, I suppose that should bother me, but all I see is that “Ricky” is now “Lucy” and prefers to be referred to as she/her, and she’s a truly sweet person. I don’t give a crap that she used to be a he and I don’t give a crap if my family knows that I adore her.

Blanket statements are thrown around an awful lot, and it really bothers me to see people who are outspoken about “don’t label me” and “don’t make stupid blanket statements”, tossing blankets all over the other side.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You know I respect the hell out of you, even when I don’t agree with you, but it pains me to hear you complain about people who shit on others, and then hear the sneer in your voice when you refer to “the religious community”. It doesn’t really matter if it’s a belief or a way of life. Shitting on a person is shitting on a person, no matter the reason.

That being said, I have been known to shit on people. But I admit it. Therein lies the difference.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate No I admit it too – I shit on the religious people a lot, generally speaking but that’s not what I was doing above. I was making a difference (in my mind anyway) between beliefs and saying that’s the same as one’s sexuality. We all have beliefs, fine, we should respect we all have beliefs. We all have sexualities, we should leave each other alone on that respect. It just seems to me that religion in one way or another makes it hard for many people to reconcile these two kinds of tolerances, do you not think so? I don’t think it’s okay to say ‘don’t discriminate against that religious person’ when I am talking about them being homophobic because of their religion (their own admitted excuse) because I don’t care where homophobia comes from as I told @KatawaGrey in my last comment and that’s exactly why I won’t give any special treatment to homophobia based on religion. We have to call out people, we can’t just say ‘oh that’s not tolerating their religion’ when what we’re not tolerating is homophobia, generally. In this sense, you and I are on the same team – we are against homophobia, you believe in God, and I don’t – I don’t see a problem, whatsoever.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Alright then. I can admit the fact that many religious people have great difficulty reconciling their spiritual beliefs with their desire to love others, despite the others’ perceived “abnormalities”. The main problem I had toward the end of this thread, was with the statement “I’ll take whatever I can get from the religious community”. It sounded disdainful and bothered me. I hear similar things a lot here, just as I did on wis.dm and it always bothers me.

It always comes around to “religious people are insane”, “religious people are dumb”, “religious people are nothing but a psycopathic group of raving lunatics” and so on…. That would be like me saying “gay people are weird”, “gay people are promiscuous”, “gay people are dirty”, “gay people are the beginning of the end for this country” and so on…

It’s just a bunch of bullshit, concocted by bitter people who have nothing better to do than bash “groups” that have mistreated them or someone like them. If I were to bash everyone who’s ever mistreated me or who has been part of a “group” who has mistreated me, I would hate almost every person on the planet.

In my mind, there is no distinction between hating a belief or hating a sexuality. It’s all a part of who we are, as people. Even though beliefs are not a tangible thing, those who hold the beliefs are who they are because of those beliefs, so it is just as much a part of them as their sexuality. My beliefs are as necessary to me as your sexuality is to you. So, in that regard, there is no difference between the two.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Huh..I wasn’t sounding disdainful (in my head, just tired) but I see how it could come off that way. As for all the other things that people say about religious people, I don’t because I don’t think any of that stuff – and I defend religion often albeit it’s usually Islam or Wicca rather than Christianity but nonetheless. As for bashed groups bashing others, I agree that’s within me and it’s a difficult phenomenon involving hurt and revenge and short-sightedness. Of course, I shouldn’t give into it but I’m tired, as I said, of being tolerant of those who aren’t tolerant of me and @KatawaGrey‘s comments make it seem like first I have to be tolerant and then those homophobes can be tolerant of me and I know this sounds childish..but why do I have to go first…why am I always the role model? Why aren’t others role models, why do so many get off for saying ‘but this is what my religion says, you can’t fault me for it’ – a lot of people hide behind religion when it’s not about religion. As to the last paragraph, I have heard people make that argument and I’m willing to just disagree on that one…since, to some people, their religious beliefs are part of their core. I suppose what I was rather saying is that I can not tolerate homophobia if it’s being defended as a religious belief even if I can and do agree that religious beliefs should be left alone and people can believe whatever they want about God.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Oh, no no, I don’t think homophobia should be defended as a religious belief. It’s gotten to a ridiculous point with a lot of “the church”. That’s why I’m no longer part of any church, they take things way too far.

I agree that almost everyone feels a desire for revenge sometimes and that can bring out the worst in us. And no one expects you to just keep turning the other cheek, and be a role model by being tolerant of every single thing… BUT you must admit that you definitely have a “role model type personality”, and a lot of people will look to you for your opinions and your guidance. Heavy. =0)

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Sure, I got that and that’s fine. I no longer remember what we’re talking about. I’m now physically tired and I enjoyed the conversation with both you and @KatawaGrey. It’s almost 10, SYTYCD is almost over and I’ve got sex on my mind. Good night, ya’ll.

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