General Question

pleiades's avatar

Why are kids reportedly being killed in the Gaza strip?

Asked by pleiades (6538 points ) July 22nd, 2014 from iPhone

As asked.

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176 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

Because neither SHamas nor Netanyahoo give a flying crap about civilian casualties.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

They are in the way of a war.

LuckyGuy's avatar

Because Hamas thinks they have more value as martyrs.

When Hamas fires a rocket into Israel, they know exactly how Israel will respond. The Israeli Iron Dome system instantly tracks the source location and that site becomes a target.
After firing over 800 rockets into Israel Hamas knows this well. BUT, still they fire from schools, crowded streets, and places with many civilians.

Israel uses missiles to protect its children.
Hamas uses children to protect its missiles.

whitenoise's avatar

Reportedly?

The war in Ghaza isnt a just, fair war.

So far over 500 Palistinians killed, of which many civilians. There is no justification for it.

Blaming Hamas is just a silly oversimplification.

LuckyGuy's avatar

@whitenoise Can anyone here offer a better suggestions for stopping the rockets from Gaza?
Sadly, I can’t.

LuckyGuy's avatar

Look at this question from almost 2 years ago: What do you predict the Hamas leaders in Gaza are thinking? .
That was 2 years ago!

whitenoise's avatar

How about helping create a truly viable Palestinian state within the boundaries agreed with the international world upon the creation of Israel?

zenvelo's avatar

@whitenoise How about a Paelstinian statement on Israeli right to exist? How about Palestinians not celebrating the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli teens by handing out candy to children?

There is bad behavior on both sides, a finger pointing question on Fluther will only add to discord. What we all need is peace and reconciliation.

LuckyGuy's avatar

A few days ago there was a 5 hour humanitarian cease fire to aid civilians in Gaza. What happened within 3? 5? (you can check the video) minutes after the cease fire ended? Hamas fired 10 rockets into Israel.
Israel has dozens (hundred?) of live video feeds monitoring the rocket launches from Gaza . They also publish a daily list. The data is available to everyone.

Edit: While searching to answer wheher it was 3 or 5 minutes I saw another site that stated only Israel stopped for the cease fire – 6 hours. During that time Hamas fired 47 rockets.

So, tell us, anyone! What should Israel do to stop the rockets?

JLeslie's avatar

Because Hamas leaders will pull one of their children in front of them when faced with a firing squad to try to block the bullets.

Hamas knows Israel will fight back with quadruple the force. They start something and Israel pushes back hard. Israel’s offense is their defense, except that Hamas seems to not care that their own will die. Saying they don’t care is probably too extreme, but the culture is supportive of martyrdom. Lose a child in battle for the cause and they can feel pride. Think Klingons on Star Trek. But, they also feel sorrow and it just helps increase hate against Israelis. But, what is Israel to do? They have to fight back. The Palestinians don’t seem to want a two state solution, unless I misunderstand, they want to get rid of Israel altogether.

Many many more Israelis would be dead if Israel did not have the technology for that dome that stops missiles coming in.

@whitenoise That would be great. I like to believe Palestinians would live side by side with Israeli neighbors if they were prosperous and happy themselves. Do you really believe more land will accomplish that? I’m not doubting, I’m asking. Your opinion I would find very interesting. Why don’t the other Arab countries help the Palestinains? I don’t mean in warfare, I mean taking them in as citizens in their own countries, or helping them on the land they live on now, with education, and telling them the extreme religious and cultural values are harming them? Why don’t the other countries condemn war and violence? Why? I figure because so many other Arab countries, and Iran too, like the Palestinains to be uncomfortable so they fight the Israelis. They are pawns. Not to mention so much of the Arab world either agrees with the extreme religious stuff, or at minimum would never speak out about it in a public way.

The Arab world is huge, and so is the muslim world. The Jewish “world” is mini small. Israel is super small and there are even Arabs who live within the borders. Almost half of us (Jews) live not within Israel, but in America. Thank goodness America, and many other countries we have fled to (and it is almost always because we fled another country from religious oppression or poverty sometimes escaping death) took us in and we can live as free full citizens. We purposely assimilated to our new countries.

Israel gave back some occupied land several years ago and the Palestinans are still unrelenting. Israel has no faith they will ever stop until the Palestinians get all the land. I never here Hamas saying they just want the orginal agreed upon borders, but maybe it just isn’t reported here. Is that what they say and other Arabs? Or, is that what Europe and other people who are very sympathetic to the Palestinains say? I have sympathy for the Palestinains myself. I can understand why from their perspective it is Arab land.

Sometimes I wish the Palestinans would just stop so they stop losing lives, and work making things good and peaceful for themselves either in new countries or where they are right now. Sometimes I wish all the Jews would leave Israel and take a territory in America and create a new state and blow up all the infrastructure they created in Israel in their wake (they can leave alone the Arab sections and of course perserve religious sights). If the Palestinians make Israel again full of schools, and medical facilities, and technological research and businesses and women live equal and free and all of a sudden a peace comes over the Middle East and the powers at be activily work at catching their own terrorists, then more power to them. I have my doubts it would work out that way.

What if the Palestinains had made a peace treaty long ago? Or, what if they had accepted the formation of Israel from the beginning? There is no reason why the Arabs and Jews could not have lived with each other, even been living in each others countries. Some do today. My guess is a lot of Arabs would have loved to live in Israel if there never was this horrible animosity. Israel is the only democracy over there, girls are safe, can be educated (I know they can in some other Arab countries too, but not all) medical care is excellent, and so on.

syz's avatar

Regardless of what methods Hamas uses, the deaths are still incredibly disproportionate; since 2005, 23 out of every 24 conflict deaths have been Palestinian.

Israelis have imposed severe restrictions on freedom of movement, continued to build in contested areas, controlled water rights, villages and homes destroyed (source)...I might become a terrorist under those conditions, myself.

Look, I don’t pretend to understand the history and politics of the area, and I’ve never understood why anti-Semitism even exists, but I believe both sides behave horrendously…..but I also find the attacks on anyone that questions Israel’s behavior disingenuous at best.

On topic

ragingloli's avatar

Palaestine’s right to exist should also be recognised. But that is not going to happen, as that means recognising borders, and stopping settlements on palaestinian territory.
It also does not help that some people watched and cheered as palaestinian homes and lives were laid to waste.
The UN should have sent troops there decades ago, because obiously neither side is willing to back down until the other one does, and there is no sign that they ever will, unless the international community steps in with force.

pleiades's avatar

@LuckyGuy I’ve heard the comparison of equating the Hamas to the KKK and that they are the ones stirring up all the action, yet it’s ordinary citizens that don’t share the radical belief system of the Hamas (Though at this point, since ‘01 there really hasn’t been a functional economic or social structure for the Palestinians) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osocIWakOp4

And this video reveals what looks like random airstrikes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34PyhScnlbU

Not on only Hamas, but any of the Palestine ordinary citizen. It’s not right. Poor kids are in their bedrooms and then ka boom… I’m not saying it’s right either for Hamas to be firing rockets into Israel. They are waging a war that could never be won.

filmfann's avatar

@LuckyGuy is correct. Hamas is purposely putting children in harms way to make Israeli retaliation look bad.

cazzie's avatar

Israel should give the land back and start migratory plans to Florida.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@whitenoise there is no such thing as a just, fair war. There is no way anyone is going to convince me it was just and fair for boys playing on a beach to be murdered.

As I watch them lob missile after missile at Israel only to cause more Palestinian deaths, I have a hard time believing that Hamas is fighting for any real cause beyond publicity.

SadieMartinPaul's avatar

@cazzie Your comment about Israelis starting “migratory plans to Florida” is offensive.

As for giving back the land, Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005. All Israeli settlements were dismantled, and about 9,000 Israelis were forcibly evicted.

I offer these thoughts as someone who has no bonds or special allegiances to Israel, but who (a) dislikes ugly stereotypes and remarks and (b) reads newspapers.

whitenoise's avatar

@FlyingWolf
I am not implying that any war is just. All I am (wanted to be) saying is that the simple notion of blaming all on Hamas is just that: simple.

The amount of Palestinians hurt is way out of whack with the amount of Israeli hurt.

Don’t take me wrong: Israel should not be bombed. Especially not its citizens. However: to kill over 500 Palestinians, majority civilians, in the past few weeks alone, cannot be easily justified.

I think the international community created a problem, when it created Israel. It is like relocating all the people from all over the world with a Frisian background into Holland, while turning the other Dutch that currently live there from another ethnicity into second class citizens. And on top: while occupying parts of Germany and Belgium. Not a good idea to begin with.

Nevertheless… Israel is now there and peace in that area with recognition of the rights of all people living there is the only option.

I find it very painful to see a people that have suffered through so much misery in their history, inflict such harsh measures on other peoples. Israel is created by International treaties, it should start with respecting those.

The sad state of affairs is that the whole Middle East is one big political failure and Israel is the closest thing that comes to a democracy (together with Iran!). It would be so much better if that democracy would show a little more softness to the people under their care/control. That includes the people in Ghaza, who, whatever way you look ati have been under Israeli control for most of their lives, but haven’t really been ‘enjoying’

whitenoise's avatar

@JLeslie

I don’t have a solution either. Maybe as suggested above, the international community should step in and set its love child straight. I doubt that Israel is going to put its fate in their hands, though.

Looking at it, I hurt and I wish that I could make it better.

Retaliation is not a very good ethical choice though, in my book. Especially not if retaliation takes place towards third parties.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and one cannot wash one’s hands clean, in other mans’ dirt.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Palestinians hurl rockets at Israel because it’s the “best” they can do. Other than the fear they generate, the rockets are about as effective as the rocks Palestinian kids throw at Israeli troops. Israelis blow up Palestinians to teach them there are consequences for fkn with Israel. The most frustrating aspect of the current exchanges for Israel, is that the carnage on the Palestinian side is all but unavoidable in an air strike. It doesn’t matter if they are warned in advance, Israel bombs a building, someone dies. Hamas on the other hand, can’t target ANYTHING with their primitive artillery rockets. The only reason the things land anywhere in Israel or the settlements at all is because they haven’t the range to go anywhere else. The lopsided casualty toll serves Palestinian propaganda interests, and keeps their case in front of a world with a short attention span. The rockets are another way of saying “We aren’t going away. If our lives are miserable, at least yours will never be normal.”

gailcalled's avatar

This was triggered by the early July murders of three teen-agers..two Israelis and one American. Then purportively Israeli nationists killed a Palestinian teen-ager; they took him off the street and burned him alive. Then, inevitably,“the rockets’ red glare.”

The initial hideously unnecessary killings were the flash point.

whitenoise's avatar

Three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped. 2 Boys of 16 years old and one of 19.

Israel started a military operation (Brother’s Keeper) to search for the boys. In 11 days they arrested around 350 Palestinians, including nearly all of Hamas’ leaders on the West Bank and killed five Palestinians.

Then, after the three boys were found murdered, Israeli extremists kidnapped a 14 year old Palestinian boy and burned him alive.

Violence breeds violence.

CWOTUS's avatar

Presumably it’s because killing them there at a wholesale rate is a cheaper alternative to killing them one-by-one at retail, or waiting however many centuries it might take for a highly uncertain “global warming” to raise the level of the Med sufficiently to drown their multiple-generation descendants.

rojo's avatar

Here is an article entitled How the West Chose War in Gaza: Crisis Tied to Israeli-U.S. Effort to Isolate Hamas & Keep the Siege. It is an interview with Nathan Thrall, senior analyst at the International Crisis Group, covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank and it fills in a little of the background that led up the the present conflict. And here is a link to Mr Thralls original article How the West Chose War in Gaza. Gaza and Israel: The Road to War, Paved by the West in the New York Times.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

I agree with @cazzie. The Israelis are obviously to blame for this whole mess for stealing the land in the first place back in the 50s.
They should give it all back, apologize, and move to Florida where their homeland now lies.

Or else the world’s superpowers should get together and nuke both of them back to the stone age and be done with it.

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kritiper's avatar

Munitions don’t know the difference between young and old, combatants and non-combatants. War is a nasty business!
@Dan_Lyons . If I know my history correctly, the land Israel inhabits was granted to them by the United Nations. They didn’t steal it.

Pazza's avatar

Just a thought….....

But since the Israelis can target, and succesfully destroy palestinian rockets in mid flight, couldn’t they just carry on destroying them in mid flight and not target the source??????

If justin beeber lived next door to me, and was throwing bricks at my windows, I don’t see how it would be fair for me to have a spring loaded grenade launcher to automatically destroy his whole house if I also had nets protecting my windows stopping 99.9 percent of the bricks coming over the fence, and then saying, well its your own fault your house was destroyed, you cant blame me for the automatic grenade launcher I bought, er, was given FOC by the american government…......

As far as Im concerned, it doesn’t matter whether your a jew or a muslim or a catholic, a palestinian or an israeli. Fact is, hundreds of innocents are being killed and maimed, and the israeli government/army have the power to ‘not kill or maim’ hundreds more.

If the israelis have a problem with rockets coming over, they should declare war (as it would seem to me to be a blatent act of war) and send the troops in.

(all that being said. I have no idea how this latest bout of tomfoolery started. But like uncle ben said to peter – “with great power comes great responsibilty”.)

Nar. f#*k-it…..... just nuke the whole area…..... wheres that john maccain nutcase…...
Send him in with one strapped to his arse…....

Ps. what is john maccain always chewin on???????

Pazza's avatar

@kritiper – Youre right of course…... the islraelis didn’t steal it, they were merely in receipt of stollen goods ;0).

That may sounds like a sarcastic jibe.
Its not meant to be.

What I was trying to point out was that, if I recently just got out of a concentration camp, had nowhere to live, and someone came along and said, here ya go sonny, heres some land and a roof over your head, and dont forget, all your peers/brothers/family can live there too, Im pretty sure I’d snap that land up, and at the end of the day, people don’t take counties to war, governments do.

So I don’t blame the israeli or palestinian people for this confict.
I blame political ideolgy, main stream media outlets, and foreign money(meddling).

Also the vast majority of the people in israel where born there, so as far as im concerned, youre born there, you have a right to be there.

Borders seem to be an silly outdated concept to me nowadays.
I cant wait for the global reset switch to be pushed.

Somebody should just highjack one of those chemtrail planes, fill it with psilocybin and cropdust the globe…......

F#*k-it, send that john maccain in with a psilocybin bomb strapped to his arse…....

FlyingWolf's avatar

@Pazza if we are going to be completely honest, the Romans took the area from Jewish people who were settled there 2,000 years ago. Also, the land was given back to Jewish settlers in 1922 by the League of Nations, under supervision of the British. Contrary to popular belief, while the state of Israel came into being after the war, the land was not given after WWII as reparation for the Holocaust.

kritiper's avatar

Those people have been at odds with someone for 1300 years. Can we expect to end the conflict in a measly 100 years??

kritiper's avatar

@Pazza Who stole it first? The Germans owned it during the war. The Allies took it from them. Then the UN gave it to the Israelis.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

@kritiper And just what is the UN to be giving land it has no right to give to homeless refugees?
@Pazza is correct. And what about defunct League of Nations? Aren’t they dead and gone?
@FlyingWolf If we are going to be completely honest, at one time the earth was not owned by anyone. Then people grew and took it. Then people decided they owned it.

NOBODY OWNS ANY LAND ON EARTH AND ALL MUST TAKE WHAT THEY WANT

Even today the idea of private property ownership is a laugh. It is merely a disguise, a game as it were. You see private property ownership is the lynchpin which holds the capitalist system together.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@Dan_Lyons why don’t you fly on over to Israel and make a trip to Gaza and share that enlightening bit of information with them. Make sure to book your flight on El Al because no one else seems to be flying there during this war over a piece of land.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

@FlyingWolf Why would I do that?

FlyingWolf's avatar

@Dan_Lyons well once you set them straight about NOBODY OWNS ANY LAND ON EARTH, that should solve the whole problem.

Relevant and also rather interesting.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

Oh, I see. You were being funny. Haha. That was an interesting link in that it reminds us that although these combatants have different names, they all have the same ancestors and actually all look alike

“What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him?” -Massasoit

“We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us?” -Sealth

“My reason teaches me that land cannot be sold. The Great Spirit gave it to his children to live upon. So long as they occupy and cultivate it, they have a right to the soil. Nothing can be sold but such things as can be carried away”—Black Hawk.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@Dan_Lyons actually I was trying to highlight the pointlessness of the response. We can scream until we are blue in the face about no one actually owning the land, but it isn’t going to get any closer to a solution.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

There really is no solution in this case, is there @FlyingWolf ?

FlyingWolf's avatar

@Dan_Lyons there most likely solution, there is clearly no simple solution though and the fact that humans are tasked with trying to find a workable solution makes it that much harder. I can guarantee that grousing about the fact no one really owns the land isn’t going to get anyone any closer to a resolution.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

I am not grousing. I am stating a clear cut fact which most of mankind either ignores or disregards.

JLeslie's avatar

Hamas wants to kill Jews period. That’s their schtick. I don’t mean all Palestinians, I mean Hamas. Israel’s goal is not to kill people, it is to live in peace.

Also, Israel could kill more people. It could blow up all of the Palestinians.

And, I can’t help but feel Israel reacts to the Palestinians, not the other way around. Who is constantly sending rockets over? The Palestinians.

I wonder if the Palestinians living in democratic Israel want the Jews to leave altogether and have an Arab state? Or, if they just want to be able to feel they are equal citizens in Israel?

@Dan_Lyons Wait, which land? All of Israel? The Jews were given that land by the UN, they didnt “take” it. Not to mention there were Jews already living there and buying up land.

@whitenoise It breaks my heart to see any human life taken in this sort of aggression. My history knowledge is not good enough to know what is going to bring peace. America dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan to finally get them to stop. More than one. From what I understand the moms of the Irish finally got the fighting between then Catholics and Prostestants to stop, because they didn’t want their children dying anymore so they chose peace. I know these are not perfectly analogous situations. I don’t even believe the middle east would be calm if the Jews left.

Dan_Lyons's avatar

What right does the UN have giving anyone land @JLeslie ?

Kropotkin's avatar

Children are being killed in Gaza because Netanyahu is a lunatic sociopath and the IDF is full of fanatical far-right Zionists who hate Arabs—as is much of Israeli society who elect vicious, lying psychopaths like Netanyahu.

These disgraceful scumbags are the real anti-Semites. They associate their rotten apartheid terrorist pariah state with Jewishness.

They detest Arabs and demonise them daily. Israeli lives are precious. Arab lives are worthless. Only Israel can “defend itself”, while Palestinians have to take their constant oppression without a hint of violence.

@JLeslie The Israeli state pays Zionist trolls to repeat their lies and propaganda on online fora. I hope you’re not doing this for free—you could make a few bucks out of it.

cazzie's avatar

The UN did not give the Israelis the entire portion that they now occupy. They broke treaties and waged war and took over more and more land. Agreed to leave large tracts to the Palestinians and then broke those agreements. They have what remains of Palestine and its people in a cage. I’m not saying give it all back, I’m saying that that they should go back to the original agreement. And I say this as someone who knows history and has met people from both sides who fled the fighting, as someone who knows a doctor who has held dead children in an ER in Gaza, as someone who knows men who served as UN Peacekeepers there.

cazzie's avatar

Actually, the Brits were in charge of settling the Jews there for decades before the UN ever ratified and recognized the situation. Jews were fleeing persecution from all over Europe well before the 1940’s. Even before the turn of the century, and the overthrow of the Csars of Russia, Jews were systematically and institutionally oppressed. They fled or joined radical groups, like the Jewish Bund, Socialist-Revolutionary Party, Mensheviks or Bolsheviks. They helped with the 1917 overthrow, but their equality ended with the rise of Stalin. The Jews were overflowing their initial settlements of Palestine in 1882. This all started well before the UN sanctioned anything.. before the UN even existed, actually. So, saying that what Israel is doing is perfectly ok because the UN ‘gave them land’ is completely wrong.

JLeslie's avatar

Then be pissed at the UN. I can’t help it that England occupied and controlled so much of the world. The way I understand it all sorts of borders were drawn in the Middle East by England or the UN as England pulled out of the Middle East finally. Iraq is a mess partly because of it, and probably other countries, my history, knowledge of geopolitics, and knowledge of the people in the middle east is lacking a little I admit.

I also can’t help that everyone hates the Jews. Hated them enough to give them a piece of land so they could entice the Jews to get the hell out of their own countries. Not to mention some of the UN probably actually did feel the Jews had some right to some land in the middle east since Jews were living there and if the Palestinians get the land because they lived there, well, weren’t the Jews there first? I don’t know, I thought there was Abraham, a Jewish man, who had two sons. Ishmael started the Muslims and Isaac who carried on the Jewish tradition. Abraham was a Jew. The father of both religions, the first guy, was a Jew. I can’t for the life of me understand why people think the Palestinian get the land “back” and don’t give a shit that the Jews have a right then to the land “back” also. How far back do you want to go? I can give my land back to the Native Americans, most of southwest America could give their land back to Mexico. Australia another British creation, they originally dumped a lot of people there they didn’t want in their country, could be given back to the aborigines and get all those white people out of ther and send the, “back” from where they came. How large was the Land of Canaan anyway? My history is not good enough, but I am guessing bigger than Israel today.

I personally am not a Zionist, I deal with the realities of how occupation, battles and wars have drawn borders in history and now we have what we have and I hoped in the 21st century we could have borders open enough, and enough prosperity in the world, that it would matter less. Of course that is idealistic.

@cazzie If they go back to the original borders will the Palestinians finally be happy and there will be peace? A lot of people seem to be saying they don’t think the UN had the power to define any borders. Also, from what I understand, Hamas not only wants the land, but they have as part of their mission to kill all the Jews. Those are two very different things wanting land and wanting to kill all the people. It’s too bad any of them feel the need for their own country if the Jews had felt safe in their countries 80–100+ years ago there would have been less of a desire to go to Israel. How about Germany, Russia, and maybe even throw in France, give up some big portions of land to the Jews or give back all the housing and personal property taken? I know there has been some efforts to do some return of property, but the Jews certainly don’t have a Jewish homeland in any of those places. That former Iranian President used to say why do the Jews get Israel when the Germans were the ones who slaughtered them? I can understand that perspective. Although, since he was a holocaust denier no one really listened to anything he said.

@Dan_Lyons Ok, Jews leave Israel. Then what happens to Israel after the Jews blow up everything they created there except for holy sights? All holy sights, I don’t just mean Jewish ones. The hospitals, the scientific research facilities, schools, technology businesses, hell all business that are Jewish owned, and housing owned by Jews. Are the Paestinians going to come in and rebuild Israel? What are they going to do there? Live the same life they have now on other lands?

Seriously, watch the documentary Precious Life and see how that Palestinian mother says she would be fine with her son killing himself for the cause. The generosity of the Israeli people did not override the peer pressure from her culture in that moment. The cultural pressure is extremely strong. There cannot be peace while killing Jews is the primary goal.

I don’t know, I think Israel wants the conflict to stop and I think the Palestinians want to keep it going. From the Palestinian perspective they want the land back and will fight for it. If they stopped fighting for all they want and made a treaty that invloved a compromise, things would calm down. Israel did it with Egypt and it has held. They should have done it back when Pres. Clinton came close to helping broker, or at list host talks for, a treaty and they didn’t.

@Kropotkin Give me a fucking break. Look at how many lurve points I have, and take notice that I am understanding of the perspective of the Palestinians. Everyone should be trying to understand all persectives. The Jews believe they own that land legitametly and so they fight for it. The Palestinians believe the same. Hence, there is an ongoing conflict there.

cazzie's avatar

You talk about stories from the old testament like it is a history book. It isnt. It is a collection of myths and legends, some of which have some basis in historical happenings, but most of it is made up. This is a big part of the problem. As an atheist, I do not believe any one group is chosen to posess that land, but Israel was based on this old, quite false, legend. I see it that Israel and surrounding counties are now generating as much or more hate and death around the entire world than any of the other crazed ideologs in recent history. It is wrong. Nothing can justify it and it isnt going to stop until they all take a strong truth syrum and sit at a table in front of microphones and cameras with a world watching.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie Jews have lived in that region forever. So, answer the question: Israel goes back to the original borders, now the Palestinians are happy?

whitenoise's avatar

I lurved you @JLeslie.

@Kropotkin that was a personal attack you made, not very nice.

Kropotkin's avatar

@whitenoise It’s okay. I’m relying on the US to veto any UN security council resolutions against me.

whitenoise's avatar

Looking at history as a base for nowadays rights in the Middle East won’t get us anywhere.

Let’s focus on the misery now of people that live now and for whom many historical rights is all they have. Let’s look at giving people what they _need now.

JLeslie's avatar

@whitenoise That I completely agree with.

cazzie's avatar

So have several ither grouos of people. You dont see them plowing over homes of other groups.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I added it too late above, so you probably missed it. If Israel goes back to the borders will the Palestinians stop? Will they be content and stop lobbing bombs over to kill Jews. Will the government in Palestine condemn and jail their terrorists at that point?

ragingloli's avatar

@JLeslie
They also need to recognise Palestine as a sovereign nation, with the right to control their own borders and airspace.

JLeslie's avatar

@ragingloli Fine. Then do the Palestinians stop? They are happy?

ragingloli's avatar

They might be. Are you willing to find out?
I know that Netanyahu is not.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie you really need to have a closer look at who is the one breaking treaties and UN reaolutions.

dappled_leaves's avatar

I don’t think the question here is “What will it take to keep Palestine happy?” Israel is not being criticized because it is failing to keep Palestine happy. Israel is being criticized because, of the two nations, they have by far the greatest population, the largest amount of space, the greater firepower, and the best protection against attacks. Their retaliation against the puny attacks by Hamas are out of all proportion, and they appear to be targeting civilians deliberately. They don’t have to do that. It’s pure cruelty, and it’s allowing all of the sympathy that the world had for the Jews to slip through their fingers like sand.

I don’t think the rest of the world really cares whether Israel and Palestine carry on their war forever, or who will win if it ends. But they see the way Israel is carrying out their attacks, and they are disgusted. If the positions of the two nations were reversed, would Palestine do exactly the same thing to Israel? Perhaps they would. But the world is not going to judge them on that “perhaps”. Israel has control over its own actions, and the world is judging them for those actions.

JLeslie's avatar

About what started the whole thing this time. The Israeli and American boys who were murdered. Were the people who murdered them arrested by the Palestinian authorities? Did Palestinian leadership publically denounce it?

@ragingloli I can understand why the Israelis don’t trust the Palestinians will be happy and stop. I’m willing to find out, but if the Palestinians fuck it up will the whole world then say, “ok, Israel was right,” and come to Israel’s defense and finally treat the Palestinains as the war mongers and murderers? My deep hope would be for peace, for the people who doubt the Palestinains will finally stop their terror to be proven wrong. But, if the Palestinains prove to not embrace the old borders and a peace treaty that gives them air space and their own nation, and they persist in wanting even more land and to kill Jews, then I say Israel gets to fight them out of all the land they want to.

I think Israel looks at every time they have backed away from land and sees it doesn’t help to calm things down for further negotiations, the fighting is still relentless. Shouldn’t we criticize the Palestinians a little for that? Let’s say your mom gives you a later curfew and you still arrive home late. Is she going to take that as proof you didn’t have any respect for rules and are irrisponsible even after she trusted you with a later curfew, or is she going to give you even a later curfew hoping you finally follow the agreed upon time?

@dappled_leaves I use the term happy loosely, but what I mean is citizens who are content where they live generally don’t feel the need to wage wars. Countries that have very different economic or political situations that border each other usually creates a situation where the country that has a more difficult situation either has some sort of war, sometimes an internal war within its own borders, or people try to flood over into the other country. My hope would be that once the two state solution is put in place, that any radical Jewish people would finally stop once they see that the radical Palestinians have stopped. If they stop.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie Well, as I said, I have no problem with going back to the borders (except if any borders have been changed by subsequent peace treaties) and seeing what happens. If peace ensues then great. If not, then everyone here who is blaming settlements is wrong. I hope they are right.

cazzie's avatar

Im really resisting the urge to inquire about the colour of the sky in some peoples world here, but I have to remember they do not get the same news from the world.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I’m so glad you resisted. I’m not sure what more you want from me. I said I am willing to go back to the borders, I completely understand why Palestinains feel Israelis are occupying some of their territory. If that is not enough for you then I can only assume you want Israel gone completely. Is that really what you think would be the right thing? Can all us Jews come over to Norway?

FlyingWolf's avatar

@JLeslie your statement that “everyone hates the Jews” gives the rest of your post an air of hysteria. While antisemitism is alive and well, that statement is somewhat hyperbolic. I would be willing to bet most people who are paying attention just want to see an end to the killing.

The problem seems to be that so many people (even in this thread) are just interested in taking sides and explaining how the other side is wrong while no one wants to look toward a solution.

I find it hard to believe that Hamas’ behavior is representative of what the the majority Palestinian people want to see. It just makes no sense that they keep lobbing missiles that are literally doing nothing but pissing off Israel and causing them to rain hellfire on Gaza.

Israel needs to show a little humanity here though, they know what they are doing is causing the death of lots of innocent civilians who did not ask for this war, and they really don’t seem to care.

@cazzie regardless of the sarcastic tone of your post, there is some truth to the fact that news in the US is and embarrassment compared international news from places like the BBC.

cazzie's avatar

I would love you to live a day in the life of a Palestinian. Exchange places for a day. Or spend time in an ER in Gaza. Or just read about it.

hominid's avatar

@cazzie – In my experience here in the U.S., criticism of Israel actions is considered antisemitism. In fact, in the early to mid 90s, when I was somewhat informed and trying to be more informed, even asking questions got me slapped with the antisemite label. And no – the U.S. public doesn’t know or care about the number of UN resolutions against Israel.

cazzie's avatar

Oh, I know, @FlyingWolf. I have spent time in the US. And they have my sympathies. Someone thinks Americans are mushrooms. I don’t.

Kropotkin's avatar

@cazzie I’m not sure there are many ERs remaining in Gaza. Netanyahu and the IDF seem to think hospitals are legitimate military targets.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@hominid is right, no one is the US is allowed to say anything less than positive about Israel. Of course we are all in for them doing whatever they want in response to Hamas, it was pretty much our policy in response to 9/11, bomb now, ask questions later.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie, that was a silly remark about ‘all us Jews’ moving to Norway. Infact, we are under pressure to take more asylum seekers by the EU and UN, and oddly enough, it isnt the Jews from Israel or the US who qualify. These days, we are seeing Palestinian, Afghan, and Somalian. The big boys make a mess in war zones and create refugees. I can introduce you to some, if you like.

cazzie's avatar

There is at least one ER where a Norwegian doctor has been working. Google it. He is exhausted and wrote an open letter.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

That is terrorism, and Hamas are terrorists.

Ever since the Ottoman siege of Vienna in 1529—the first recorded indiscriminate shelling of a city in the western world—we’ve known that it not only does not subdue the victims into submission, but instead hardens them against their enemy. It makes it easier for the victims to dehumanize the enemy, and since they are convinced that they will all die anyway if they do nothing, they become suicidal in their resistance. They have nothing to lose, when all else is lost, by throwing their own bodies at the inhumane monsters who have bombed their civilians—like the Russian people did at the Nazi siege of Stalingrad.

Dropping bombs indiscriminately upon civilians prolongs the conflict, and the things get really nasty and expensive when your enemy is willing to fight and die down to the last human just to make a point. And it destroys the morale of the army that has to kill these people. We’ve seen this throughout history, most recently at the siege of Paris in 1870–71, in the hardening of Britain’s resolve during Goring’s bombing of civilians and architectural treasures in the 1939–40 air war, our bombing of civilians in Japanese cities in WWII, at the siege of Stalingrad, our carpet bombing of Vietnam in the 1960’s and 70’s, and our own reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor and the events of 9/11. It does not subdue one’s enemy, it only strengthens their resolve to resist. It just pisses them off and makes them fight even harder. Now, goddammit, if a common nurse from Florida knows this, so must everyone involved in the Middle East conflict.

The Palestinians got a raw deal in 1948. They occupied the land that was allocated for the new State of Israel, which was created in reaction to the centuries of constant pogroms against essentially stateless Jews, culminating in the massive genocide under the Nazis. The Palestinians were shunted off, much like the American Indian, into camps on poor land within their former territory, with millions emigrating into Jordan—so many, in fact, that they quickly outnumbered the Jordanians in their own state, created fear of instability within that government. The result was more internment camps within Jordan, control of further emigration by Jordanian defense forces, and some assimilation for those with resources. The Palestinians were now the ones to become stateless and this was never properly addressed by the countries who sponsored the creation of the State of Israel. And it has been biting the world in the ass ever since.

The Palestinian people have a legitimate cause, but any group that chooses to go the route of indiscriminate killing of a people—terrorism—like Hamas has, knows it has forfeited any resolution through dialogue. They’ve crossed that old line, actions begat by shear rage rather than strategy, and into a suicidal realm. Hamas, and the groups that have come before them, crossed this line. They are staffed by egotistical, but suicidal careerists and are not interested in resolution for their own people, only glory for themselves, as heroes of the noble cause. Bullshit. In effect, they are sabotaging any chance for the Palestinian people to live in peace on their own land. Hamas, and similar groups, are sabotaging any hope of reasonable resolution. The Palestinian people, as a first move toward peace, need to form a group and hunt every member of Hamas them down and kill them all—for their own survival. Meaningful dialogue with the Palestinians cannot begin without the elimination of these terrorist groups. If Israel then continues to be unaccommodating to an equitable solution to the injustice perpetrated against the Palestinians in 1948, they must be pressured by the rest of the world to do so.

I think it is extremely interesting that, in polls, the American people have been overwhelmingly pro-Israeli through the years, but when I lived in Europe, the people there were overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian. Same world, polarized in opinion. The difference must be in the slant of reporting in the respective news media.

rojo's avatar

Why do I feel that the majority of the people on both sides would prefer to put their leaders in an arena and let them fight it out amongst themselves while your average everyday citizen went on with the task of trying to make a living.

cazzie's avatar

Hamas is a democratically elected government.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@cazzie since when does being a democratically elected government mean they aren’t terrorists? Many would argue that Netanyahu is a terrorist and he was democratically elected. Personally I consider Bush and Cheney terrorists, they were just lucky enough to have the US military to do their bidding.

cazzie's avatar

@FlyingWolf I never said they weren’t. I just said they were democratically elected.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@cazzie it seemed pretty clear that the statement was meant in response to @Espiritus_Corvus‘s assertion that what Hamas is doing is terrorism and that they are terrorists.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@FlyingWolf I assumed that @cazzie‘s comment was in response to this by @Espiritus_Corvus:

“The Palestinian people, as a first move toward peace, need to form a group and hunt every member of Hamas them down and kill them all—for their own survival.”

Not the first thing I would think to do to a democratically elected government.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Neighbor throws a rock at my house. I set his house on fire (with his family sleeping inside) in response. Does that seem like a reasonable or justified reaction?

ragingloli's avatar

@Darth_Algar
Well, you have to defend yourself, right?

JLeslie's avatar

My Palestinians acquaintances and friends think Hamas is a piece of shit! They blame Hamas for a lot of the problems and why peace is so difficult.

Absolutely Israel goes “too far” sometimes in response to some of the actions of the Palestinians, but that is what they are going to do, so why the hell do Palestinians still do that shit to encite Israel? Most Israelis want peace and believe in a two state solution as far as I know. Our own Israeli jellies want a two state solution.

As to my remark about people hating the Jews, we have been significantly hated so many times in history and it has diminished our numbers so that it is impossible to ignore, and impossible to believe it can’t happen again. Nazi Germany took 30% of our worldwide population! Did America open its doors to every Jew who wanted to come over at the time? No. Did America opens its doors to all the Jews who wanted to escape the Pogroms in Russia before that? No. Although, America did eventually take in many of them. Did other countries readily take us all in when we were refugees? No. So, even though I agree times have changed, you can’t be Jewish and not remember history.

After WWII the expression “never again” has been made to describe how Jews will never go down again without a serious fight. Israel is known for its military, wouldn’t it be better to try diplomacy over gun fire? During the Bush years when Hezbollah and the Israelis were exchanging fire I wanted Bush to do something to stop it! He sat back in my opinion and watched. A third party would help Israel and Lebonan save face. It’s not that I am on the sidelines cheering for Israel to blow up Palestinians. It makes me sick when I hear the death tolls.

I want to add that I also think US news is biased about Israel. I have plenty of Muslim friends posting about what is going on now and they have linked plenty of articles that are either more balanced or biased towards the Palestinians. I still think the Palestinains would be better off coming to the peace treaty table and they must tell their people to stop, to give it a chance through diplomacy. A real cease fire where they themselves police their own.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Why do you keep conflating Palestinians with Hamas, particularly when the first line of your post there indicates that you know better?

JLeslie's avatar

@Darth_Algar Why do you think I am conflating them? I am talking about my Palestinian friends, do you think I think they are part of Hamas? I explicitly said they think Hamas is a piece of shit. Above I talked about the more radical Jews and Palestinians. I quite obviously don’t think all Palestinians are Hamas. Should I assume all the jellies here arguing that Israel has been awful think all Israelis and Jews are awful? I don’t. I know when they talk about things Israel is doing that they disagree with they don’t feel all Israelis feel or act the same, yet they are using “Israel” as a short hand. Why can’t I do the same? I don’t see anyone arguing for the Palestnians showing much sympathy for the Israelis at all except maybe Whitenoise and maybe one other. It is a very complicated situation over there and people who don’t live there should assume they understand what it is like to be there in my opinion, and each side of course has its own perspective. Some jellies here seem to think they are getting unbiased reporting outside of America, but there is biased reporting in general I would think to some extent. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Kropotkin's avatar

“The truth lies somewhere in the middle.”

This has to be the most common fallacy committed on this site.

Here you go, @JLeslie—especially for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

flutherother's avatar

What is happening in Gaza is horrifying and completely unacceptable and cannot be justified. It doesn’t matter who is doing the violence, it doesn’t matter to whom it is being inflicted and it doesn’t matter what excuses are made to justify it. It is a failure of humanity.

whitenoise's avatar

@Kropotkin

@JLeslie doesn’t (necessarily) commit that fallacy.

The fallacy that you refer to is the assumption that if two opposing arguments are presented, then the truth must be in the middle.

One may still think that the truth is in the middle, though, if one thinks that’s where the truth lies.

To think that the truth may never lie in the middle is another fallacy: the false dilemma.

You actually may have committed that one right there.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

You’re conflating them because you keep saying “Palestinians” this and “Palestinians” that, failing to distinguish between Palestinians and Hamas. People here are saying “Israel”, not “Jews”. They make the distinction between the state of Israel and the Jewish people.

syz's avatar

1) Using children as human shields against bombs
2) Dropping bombs anyway

Which is worse?

whitenoise's avatar

I am not trying to defend terrorism or implying it is a good thing to hide military equipment amongst civilians.

One side note on those that say that Hamas should not base its operations in civilian areas and / or that the bombing by Israel is designed to minimize collateral damage:

The Gaza strip is in the top 8 countries / territories with the highest population density: 9,713 persons per square mile.

The population density of Gaza is roughly 8 times that of The Netherlands, twelve times that of Israel and thirty times that of France.

There are no areas in Gaza that are ‘safe’ to bomb, or outside of civilian zones.

JLeslie's avatar

@Darth_Algar But others here are saying Israel, implying Israel as a whole nation, but I am not assuming they mean all Israelis. You are holding me to a different standar than others who are more sympathetic to the Palestinians, because you agree with their point of view. You are not picking apart heir use of language like you are mine.

Let’s just set it straight, I’m really not sure why I bother to repeat myself:

1. I never have thought that all Palestinians or any people within any group are all the same ever.

2. I said I agree with a two state solution. That I want to give the Palestinians the chance to have their land back with the original borders, except for other peace treaties that might impede on the original borders.

3. I have Palestinains friends! Do you think I am purposely friends with terrorists? They are wonderful people, along with my Lebonese, Pakistani, and Iranian friends over the years, if it is even worth mentioning other people in my life from that part of the world. Or, is that frowned upon like when smeine says they aren’t prejudice against blacks, but one better not marry their daughter? I keep feeling like I need to walk on eggshells here. That what I am saying is being picked apart more than what other are saying.

I still want to know if the Palestinians (they were Palestinians right?) who killed the Jewish and American boys were arrested by Palestinians police and jailed? And, I want to know if Hamas, which is the elected governement of the Palestinian people, made a public statement that doing what was done to those boys was unnacceptable? I hope they did, I really do. If not, then they support terrorism.

Seriously, bother to watch the documentary Precious Life. I apologize up front that it moves slowly in the beginning, but just wait to feel your stomach sink when the very nice woman with beautiful children answers in a knee jerk way about her infant son who is getting medical care in an Israeli hospital. She says it would be fine if he martyred himself later in life; everyone dies sometime. An Israeli man donated thousands to provide the medical care the infant boy needs to survive. The donor lost his son in the Israeli army. She cannot understand why an Israeli man would do such a thing, which to me implies she can’t imagine anyone on her side of the fence doing any such thing. Of course that woman does not reperesent all Palestinians, and in the end I think if it was left up to women, there would be peace.

@cazzie You say your country is receiving refugees. Why are they going there rather than Saudi, Jordan, Pakistan, Iraq, or another coutry that speaks the same or similar language, and is a similar culture?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie

No, when people say “Israel” I assume they are referring to the state of Israel. That is to say the government of Israel, not the people living there, as no government or controlling body actually represents the people it claims to represent. The government is not the people, the people are not the government. Israel is not the Jewish people. Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Israel and Hamas are the aggressors here, not Jews and Palestinians.

The rest of your “do you think I’m friends with terrorists?” hyperbole is so far off my point it’s not really worth addressing.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

I admit to painting Hamas with a too wide of a brush, especially when advocating assassination. As @cazzie pointed out, they are the legitimately elected government of Gaza, and recognized as such by Israel, the European Union, the US, Russia, etc, and the UN. They are also recognized as a terrorist organization by all states, except Russia and their Arab allies, and this is what is confusing.

Hamas consists of three parts: a political arm—that which governs Gaza and handles diplomacy, the social-welfare arm—which struggles to care for the people of Gaza as they suffer the economic blockade pressed upon them by many countries in reaction to the terrorist actions of Hamas’s military wing—and the military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. The structure of Hamas is much like Sinn Féin was, with Sinn Féin as the political arm and the Irish Republican Army as their military arm which also carried out terrorist actions and reprisals.

It is the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades that are responsible for the terrorist actions against Israel. There is confusion, however, as to how autonomous Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades are. Hamas has claimed at various times that they give no orders to the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, that the Brigades inform Hamas of their actions only after the fact, and that the Brigade’s operations are often at odds with Hamas diplomatic efforts toward Israel. Is Israel to believe them?

In the world of international politics, it doesn’t matter if the Brigades prosecute a Hamas hidden agenda or sabotage Hamas earnest diplomatic attempts at peace. Because Hamas is the sovereign government of Gaza, they are responsible for the actions of all it’s people. They must control their own attack dogs, just like any other nation, or suffer the consequences.

As an example, Fatah is currently no longer considered a terrorist group by any government. They were able to neutralize their large military wing—made up of many militant groups carrying out terrorist actions throughout the world—to the satisfaction of all parties. In order to accomplish this, there were some assassinations of the uncooperative, as I suggested above, there were some conversions, and these groups were actively starved of weaponry. Fatah was able to accomplish this and now are the dominant Palestinian political party in the West Bank. There is dialogue between Fatah and Israel. In 2006 Israel gave “light weapons and and ammunition” to armed forces loyal to Fatah.

This is what Hamas needs to do if the Palestinians in Gaza are ever going to improve their lot. Their demand for peace is a return to the pre-1967 Six Day War borders. The new Palestine would encompass today’s Gaza, the old West Bank areas formerly under Jordanain control and the Golan Heights on the southern Lebanese border.

From an Isreali defense point of view, this looks like a nightmare to defend against hostiles. However, Israel has stated that when the Palestinian terrorist actions stop, they will open negotiations with the Palestinians with a view toward returning to the pre- six day war border.

Hamas must neutralize the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, or this ugly cycle will continue.

JLeslie's avatar

@Darth_Algar Fine I’ll use Hamas if it makes you happy, but even Hamas you cannot paint with an all incompassing brush. To say you don’t know what I mean when I use Palestinians is ridiculous to me. Obviously, I mean the Palestinians commiting the violent acts, not all Palestinians.

@Espiritus_Corvus Well said.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie Those countries you mention have already absorbed what they can (which is much more than any other countries combined, I’m sure) and have done for a very long time. Why should they take more? And if you haven’t been there, why do think they are all that much more like their own culture than Norway is? Why do you think those countries should use their resources for the resettlement and care of refugees? The UN asks all its members to name a number of refugees they can take. The UN constantly asks a higher number of Norway because we (supposedly) are a wealthy nation with resources to help resettle, educate and house them. We don’t take as many as Sweden does. I don’t think these people get a choice. Several of the ones I spoke to were given options between European countries. Some have family here already. If they come here on their own and claim refugee status, it is harder for them. They can live for years here, in limbo, have children and jobs, and then have their application denied and they, and their kids who only speak their parent’s language as a second language and have only known Norway, end up moving back to a country where their lives are in danger. It’s horrible.

cazzie's avatar

I think Arafat once likened organizing all the factions in Palestine fighting against the occupation to herding cats. Israel can keep killing knowing full well they will never have to sit at a table and talk peace or borders. Meanwhile, they can point at their neighbour for throwing stones to justify burning their houses, schools and hospitals.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@JLeslie “Fine I’ll use Hamas if it makes you happy, but even Hamas you cannot paint with an all incompassing brush. To say you don’t know what I mean when I use Palestinians is ridiculous to me. Obviously, I mean the Palestinians commiting the violent acts, not all Palestinians.

So if a group of Jewish financiers cheated me out of my money you’d be fine with me saying “Jews are scoundrels and thieves” because obviously I’m talking about the Jews cheating me, not all Jews?

cazzie's avatar

Also, @JLeslie… let’s look at those countries you outlined in your suggestion refugees from Palestine should go rather than to Norway. Saudi? What if the Palestinian dad wants his daughter to have basic human rights? Jordan is overflowing already with Palestinian refugees and it is estimated now that they make up HALF, yes, 50% of the population in Jordan. Pakistan? Pakistan has a very different culture, but they do reserve place in their Universities to educate Palestinians. For what ever reason, the numbers of Palestinians living in Pakistan has dropped from around 8000 in the 1970s, to and current estimate between 400 and 500. Perhaps Palestinians have left there due to the fact that it isn’t their home, either. I almost spit out my coffee when I read Iraq. I seem to remember Iraq having been in a recent war with a certain Western super-power and had been bombed and ‘deconstructed’. Why not just suggest Afghanistan? or Syria? Why not Libya? Just keep those people with their own, right? This is why I cracked wise about not allowing any more Jewish settlements in Palestine and having them all go to Florida instead. Who are the refugees? What gives one group of refugees the right to create an entirely NEW group of refugees? The place is full. The people who were living there have been squished into small pockets. Those pockets are nothing more than crowded cages. Enough is enough.

FlyingWolf's avatar

@cazzie, you have to understand the mindset. We here in the US like the indigenous people we decimate, push onto increasingly smaller and smaller plots of land, and whose culture we destroy to keep their mouths shut after we do it. We aren’t used to bunch of rebel rousers spouting off about things like genocide and being forced to become refugees because someone else has decided they want the land.

That may sound over simplistic, but I am becoming increasingly more frustrated with Netanyahu and Israel. Blowing up UN schools? That is beyond the beyonds and the US just sits back and pretends it is ok.

A must see, very relevant, video.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
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whitenoise's avatar

This clip says it all: (on vimeo)

http://vimeo.com/50531435

JLeslie's avatar

I arrived in Manhattan last night and they were demonstrating in the streets for the Palestinains. A line of people with signs and flags dressed in black red and green walking through the streets. The line was about 4 blocks long I think and two to three people wide. The police were there to block traffic across intersection as they crossed the streets.

@cazzie No, not just keep those people with their own, I dont mean that at all. You have to get out of your mind that I think Arabs and Persians are “them and we are us,” I dont think that at all. Many of “those” people are probably happy to go to the western world, and secular run countries that are democracies, just like so many Jews were happy to come to America. Just like my Muslim and Christian friends from “that” part of the world who live here in America.

@Darth_Algar I think the numbers dictate whether people start generalizing and throwing around group names. The Palestinians voted in Hamas as political leaders, so there is a decent percentage of Hamas and Hamas sympathizers in the country. It’s not like calling all Muslims Al Qaeda, which would be absurd. During Nazi Germany some people might have thrown around Nazi and German synonomously I would guess, even though obviously it was not true that all Germans were Nazis. Look, I am not saying you aren’t being more accurate than me, I am only saying I have explained many times I don’t think all Palestinains are anything, I have no stereotype or conclusion about all anyone or anythng or any group each person is an individual in the world. I am just using the words for simplicity, the conflict is between the Palestinains and the Israelis. If you want to pick it apart go ahead, but I’m done explaining myself and defending it.

@whitenoise Your video explains why I don’t have the stomach for all that fighting and sometimes I wish the Jews were offered a territory in America. I just want people to stop dying, I don’t know if the land is worth it to me. With the military power Israel has it would seem to me the Palestinians would be the ones to leave, which some of them are as @cazzie pointed out. There is a part of me that wants a place for Jews in the world that they can always go to, so I understand that feeling, but I personally don’t need it to be in the hot bed of the middle east, or on what is considered religiously significant land. I would just hope whoever does own the land would protect the religious sights.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yeah, I know, you don’t think all Palestinians are, you’ve stated that. But the phrasing that you keep using implies otherwise (whether deliberate or your part or not). Sorry if pointing this out upsets you.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@JLeslie “sometimes I wish the Jews were offered a territory in America.”

For all its posturing, America would never do that.

gailcalled's avatar

^^ Michael Chabon; The Yiddish Policemen’s Union

“The impressively wacky premise is that after the Holocaust, large numbers of Jews were relocated to Sitka, where by statute they were allowed to make their home for the next 60 years, at the end of which the town would revert to the control of Alaska. Israel, it appears, didn’t work out: the Jewish settlers there were ejected “with savage finality” in 1948.” From Terrence Rafferty’s May, 2007 review in the NYT.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@gailcalled Ha! Can you imagine the response from Alaskans to such a negotiation today? We’d never get Sarah Palin off the air.

JLeslie's avatar

@dappled_leaves I was talking about back when the UN basically created what is Israel today. Although, if the US came through with an offer now it would be interesting. The thing is now Israel is all built up, and generations of Jewish people have made their home there. The US would never do it. If tomorrow all Jewish people in Israel wanted to immigrate to America I doubt America would let them all in.

Plus, I think strategically, geopolitically America likes Israel being where it is.

@gailcalled I never heard that about Alaska.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@JLeslie Exactly. America’s position on the war is hypocritical. It would never give up its own lands and displace its own people to create a Jewish state within its borders. It simply wouldn’t happen. And if it were even conceivable for the American government to do it, the people being displaced would react exactly as the Palestinians have.

Look the reaction when a small group of poor Guatemalan refugee children arrives. These are not people who welcome outsiders easily.

cazzie's avatar

The UN didn’t create Israel. They simply gave their OK and acceptance of it. It was already there. I wish people would stop saying that. Americans hate the UN except for when they are giving it credit for ‘creating Israel’.. It’s a inaccurate and disingenuous.

cazzie's avatar

Here’s a piece of what was going on in the area before the UN looked at boarders and other countries like Russian started recognising a ‘State of Israel’....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

The Jewish paramilitary groups created terror and the Palestinians had their own Exodus in 1948. They would have their State, even if the UN hadn’t recognized official boarders.

gailcalled's avatar

@JLeslie; “The Yiddish Policemen’s Union” is a novel by Michael Chabon.

“The novel begin…with a fascinating historical footnote: what if, as Franklin Roosevelt proposed on the eve of World War II, a temporary Jewish settlement had been established on the Alaska panhandle? Roosevelt’s plan went nowhere, but Chabon runs the idea into the present, back-loading his tale with a haunting history.” Source

JLeslie's avatar

@dappled_leaves There is tons of land in America, especially back in the 1940’s. Not many people, if any, need to be displaced in America to give the Jewish people land. You can’t compare Israelis to Central American poor people coming over the Mexican border. Israel is a highly educated, prosporous nation. Of course there are some poor people in Israel, and of course some central American immigrants are educated, but the ratios coming into America are vastly different. it creates a different burden on the country when a lot of poor people come in. Although, no matter what new immigrants need jobs.

@cazzie Thanks for the language. “Ok and acceptance” sounds better to me, I never know what wording to use for that.

JLeslie's avatar

@cazzie I forgot to ask a question. Didn’t Egypt and Jordan also take land? Didn’t Egypt have control of Gaza for a while? Or, do I have that wrong. It seems to me the Middle East has been fighting and killing throughout history and it isn’t just Israelis and Palestinians. I’m not defending Israel taking more land than the original borders, I am only saying I look at the world and fighting and pillaging seem to happen much more than I am comfortable with to conquer land. It happened in Europe, the Americas, Africa, and other parts of Asia. It’s horrible. I have no defense for any of it. For any of the examples around the world of changing borders, I just know it happens.

JLeslie's avatar

@gailcalled Thanks for the link. It’s so confusing to me. Reading history is like reading Greek to me. I read it through and already half the information has left my brain. What do you think is the best answer for the territory?

gailcalled's avatar

^^ Not a clue. I have no diplomatic training. One could start by not murdering teen-agers of any nationality or religious persuasion.

JLeslie's avatar

@gailcalled Sounds like a reasonable start to me.

rojo's avatar

Lift the blockade on Gaza as a starting point.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

Make the Hamas military arm, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, stop killing people indiscriminately as a starting point.

flutherother's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus Killing people indiscriminately is never good, whoever is doing it.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

No shit.

People who kill indiscriminately should know that they forfeit their own lives to the people they kill. I would know this if I chose to be a terrorist,I would know that from the day I started killing that my days were numbered—and these motherfuckers know it, too. I don’t understand why the world is so timid in this case. If Hamas won’t stop them, then Shin Bet should hunt down the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades one by one and kill them off—like they did the Munich terrorists—while the other elements of the Israeli government stop this chickenshit starving starving and killing of innocents. Take it to the Palestinian group who are actually doing the killing —the Brigades. . It’s better if Hamas did it themselves, like Fatah before them, but it needs to be done nevertheless. THAT is the best first step. No dialogue can begin before groups like the Brigades are neutralized. Why the fuck is this so hard for people to understand?

whitenoise's avatar

Over 1,000 people killed now in Gaza by IDF. That seems pretty indiscriminate to me as well.

You propose we start to kill those responsible within IDF as well?

Violence breeds violence. This is the wrong path.

rojo's avatar

I think you have to go back and look at who started it.

Yup, the brits. It is their fault for giving away something that was never theirs in the first place. Let them sort it out.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

Fuck that. I’m not going to get into that argument with you. It’s impractical.

Look, Israeli retaliations are not going to stop until the Brigades do. If you’re in a heated argument against a much bigger guy who you know is just being nice if he puts you in the hospital instead of the graveyard, you don’t just start swinging at him. Unless you are suicidal. You negotiate, and use any way you can to deal with him, other than fisticuffs. Even if you are right, that’s what you have to do to survive the situation. The last thing you want to do is anything that will stop dialogue and take it into an out-and-out brawl, at least until you can come up with a better plan than outright suicide. Especially if your adversary decides to take your wife and kids out first as he works his way toward you.

The Brigades may be willing to give their lives for their noble cause, and Hamas seems to be willing to allow this, but lobbing missiles into Israel is getting their own people killed and starved out in a siege. They can’t win this way and they know it. After all this time, it is evident that the world is not going to come to the Palestinian rescue, because the rest of the world is appalled by terrorism and applauds its non-productivity. For Hamas, the governing body, to allow actions that get their own people killed—innocent mensches who just want to go to work and raise their families—is grossly irresponsible, disingenuous, and insincere as to their stated goal for peace.

Therefore, regardless of who started it (for chrissake, this isn’t a grammar school playground), the Brigades must stop and it is incumbent upon Hamas to make this happen any way they can.

ragingloli's avatar

What has to happen is that the UN must march in, purge Hamas from Gaza and the Westbank, remove the current Israeli right wing government, especially Netanjahu, and then the borders need to be redrawn from sketch.
The original partition plan was, with its multiple fractured territories, completely retarded.

rojo's avatar

And what happens if Hamas stops lobbing rockets at Israel, which they are doing because Israel had blockaded Gaza trying to destroy Hamas as a political force? Or what happens if Israel accomplishes its self-imposed decision to militarily destroy Hamas? In either case let’s say the rockets stop. Are they going to open the borders? I think not. They cannot. They have created so many martyrs that opening the borders will only lead to more suicide bombers inside Israel. So they keep Gaza isolated which will lead to more repression and more rockets which will, in turn, mean a new shock and awe bombing retaliation several years down the road. So what is the answer?

Perhaps @ragingloli is correct, Perhaps the answer is to forcibly take ALL the land back and reapportion it out to the respective parties.

Darth_Algar's avatar

It might be “incumbent” upon Hamas to stop the brigades, but that’s not going to happen. (Could Hamas even do so at this point?) Israel could, if it chose to, take out these brigades surgically (Mossad, certainly, have pulled off trickier operations with success). Instead they choose to indiscriminately kill thousands of Palestinians (which is not only morally unjustifiable, but harms Israel far more than it helps them).

rojo's avatar

I know they lost my sympathy and support last time they did this and I don’t think I am the only one. I see support for Israel wavering here in the US

ragingloli's avatar

sketch scratch

rojo's avatar

And in the new reapportionment, let us give the temple mound to those goddam US fundamentalist christians so that they can re-build the temple and get it out of their system.

JLeslie's avatar

Last night I watched some reporting on Al Jezeera while Israel was bombing, and some of the Palestinians were cursing the Arab and Muslim world. One person went as far to say, may God punish the Arabs before the Israelis. That was interesting to me. I didn’t think that thought process was happening over there with some of the answers I read here on fluther. In American I never see in the media or in demonstrations Arabs and Muslims asking for the Arab world to do something, I only hear them say how horrible Israel is and how culpable Israel is. Not only do something to help them fight back, but do something to give these Arabs help with shelter and medical care during this time. Some of the other countries might very well be helping to some extent, I have no idea, I am just saying it was very interesting that some Palestinians were not afraid to say it on camera and that they were thinking that way. Also, a couple people while running away form the bombs said “they didn’t warn us this time.” meaning Israel often does warn. The filming definitely was showing the devastation in Gaza, so I don’t think we can say it was biased in any way towards supporting Israel, not t mention it was on Al Jazeera America.

It all just reinforced my feelings that the Palestinians are pawns. I can’t help but wonder how different it would be if they had been friends with the Isralis all along. The devastation is so upsetting. They have to stop, they are committing suicide and homocide by continuing. From what I understand there have been many calls for cease fires and they won’t obey them.

Also, curious to me, they men kept talking about women and children being killed, being targeted. Are more women and children being killed? Why? Where are the men that the bombs miss them? Or, are they just using the expression women and children, because most people are more horrified by that, but really all genders and ages are dying equally.

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie Israel has nuclear weapons. You think Syria, or Iran should risk being nuked by Israel and then add America’s backing in the mix. Israel is bombing schools and hospitals. That is why women and children are being killed. This is how lopsided the fighting is: From the UK Telegraph: On the Israeli side, 29 people have been killed, all but two were soldiers. The UN’s Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, said that, as of Tuesday morning (July 22), 149 children had been killed, compared with 87 confirmed members of armed groups. Even including unconfirmed combatant deaths, more children would still have died. Aid agencies point out that, unlike in other wars, Palestinians, enclosed by the security fence around Gaza, cannot flee. As of last night, 118,000 people were sheltering at UN schools and other facilities. But even there they may not be safe. The UN Relief and Works Agency said a girls’ school housing refugees had suffered a “direct hit from Israeli shelling” yesterday. It was unclear whether any casualties had been inflicted.

JLeslie's avatar

No, I think they should help provide services to help the wounded and provide shelter. I think they should help with negotiations. From what I understand Egypt is trying to help with the negotiations. I think the other Arab countries could help the Palestinians be more prosperous, help with education, health care, make their lives easier in some ways, and help them have better lives for themselves and their society. so that they might be more willing to negotiate. I have my doubts the other Arabs want the Palestinians to do well. As long as they are miserable they will keep tying bombs to themselves and try to blow up Israel.

And, just to clarify again I do not mean all Palestinians or all Arabs.

eno's avatar

Basic common sense will tell you that kids are always the most vulnerable. Aside from that, kids are dying because the majority of the population in Gaza are kids and young adults.

Here, from CIA Stats,
0–14 years: 43.2% (male 402,848/female 381,155)
15–24 years: 20.6% (male 191,710/female 182,405)

So you have 63.8% of the population that are kids/young adults.

Also, Gaza being a high densely populated area and terrorists using children as human shields increases the statistical likelihood of death to be extremely high. Even under blind fire, there is a 50/50% chance of death.

Israel is the strongest army in the middle east, if they really wanted to bomb innocent civilians indiscriminately, they could have carpet bombed Gaza Strip a long time ago.

flutherother's avatar

Firing artillery rounds into built up areas as Israel has done in Gaza is inevitably going to cause indiscriminate death and injury to the people that live there. This sort of activity is never justified in my view and to say the people subjected to it are ‘human shields’ or are ‘committing suicide’ seems to me ridiculous and an attempt to deny responsibility.

eno's avatar

By your logic, Israel would only be able to kill terrorists with sniper rifles or knifes since it is the only form of weapon that causes the least amount of collateral damage. No assault weopon, no airplanes, no tanks, no naval and with that logic the war would be prolonged for 100 years and hundreds of thousands of rockets would have fallen on Israel during the campaign.

What next? “Lets send a few mossad members in and they will take care of the entire rocket problem” ? Heh.

You do realize wars can only be won by disproportionate force? And Israel soldiers (at least from Israeli perspective) are much more valuable than any palestinian citizen, so by using heavy forms of weaponry instead of ground troops, you protect the risk of harm/death for your soldiers. Common sense.

Either way, if you’re targeting a terrorist, and there is collateral damage (civilian death) then the attack is not indiscriminate. Carpet bombing would be something considered as indiscriminate.

eno's avatar

Just to clarify, your argument rests upon the idea that the civilians in Gaza are more important than the Israeli soldiers and Israeli people. This is false notion since common sense dictates that when you’re attacked, and the general nature or humans is that your own people and soldiers have much more value than anyone else. Just like your children have more value than your friend.

The idea is to quickly stop the threat and minimize casualties for your own people prior to protecting foreigners. And what better way for Israel to quickly stop a threat and minimize soldier casualties than to win a war from a distance using planes, tanks and naval force? So the fact that this method minimizes Israeli soldier casualties/deaths, has much more value and importance than any civilian in Gaza. The question is would you rather have an Israeli just get hurt/killed, or a palestinian civilian. Obviously you’re an Israeli, you choose the former over the latter.

If Israel would emphasis more value and importance of the civilians in Gaza over Israeli soldiers and Israeli citizens, than there would be much more casualties for Israel (exclusively) and the war would take much longer to come to an end.

cazzie's avatar

This isnt a war. It is an occupation.

eno's avatar

You’re right, the Arabs are occupying Jewish land. The Arabs should leave immediately.

If you know your history, the first inhabitants were Canaanites and the Jews are a transformation from within the Canaanites. Archeologists clock this back to (1200 BCE).

The Arab occupiers started in the 640’s which means the Jews predate the Arabs by almost 600 years.

To put it in a historical sense:
the Arabs occupied the Byzantines (640)
the Byzantines are a split of Roman rule,
the Romans occupied the Jews
the Jews occupied the Greeks,
the Greeks occupied the Babylonians,
the Babylonians occupied the Jews (Judah).
the Assyrians occupied the Jews (Kingdom of Israel)
the Jews are a transformation from within the Canaanites (the first inhabits) 1200 BCE

Hence, Arabs are occupying Jewish land.

eno's avatar

Someone informed me of an error I made with the calculation. Jews predate Arabs by 1840 years, not 600. Apologies. Arab occupied the land in 640 AD, not BCE.

cazzie's avatar

Absolute poppycock.

cazzie's avatar

Using that logic, I think I’ll go back to my mother’s family’s ancestral home and demand a farm on the west coast of France, or if I doesn’t cut it, my family was Catholic on both sides, so I’m sure I can find some Protestant squatter there or somewhere else that was historically Catholic land. I’ll gather all the persecuted Catholics I know in Ireland and demand a place around the Vatican. Brilliant idea. If those Protestant scum dare fight back, I will simply label them terrorists and raise an army and make very powerful, rich friends and we will squash them like the squatting bugs that they are.

eno's avatar

You just committed a double standard. You’re basically saying that it was acceptable behavior for the Arabs to kill off the Byzantines, but it is unacceptable behavior for the Jews to takeover the Arabs. What a convenient argument this is, haha. Make up your mind.

cazzie's avatar

@eno We currently live in the 21st century, while those holding up the bible and Torah etc as an excuse to kill now are living in ancient history.

eno's avatar

That is an incoherent statement with no validity to it and doesn’t explain, at all, your double standard or its relevance. You made it clear that you think Arabs are allowed to kill whoever they want, but anyone who takes over the Arabs is despicable. Like I said, you committed a double standard. Make up your mind.

cazzie's avatar

I never said ‘kill’... ever was allowed. In fact, I said they are all living in ancient history, didn’t I? As are you.

eno's avatar

You’re going in circles now by taking this conversation back to where we started. Like I said, either you find occupation reprehensible or you don’t. You still didn’t give me a clear answer.

If you’re telling me now that you don’t find killing acceptable, then you’re saying occupation is unacceptable, so following this course of logic, you have to condemn every form of occupation that ever took place up until the original inhabitants which were Canaanite-Jews. This means you have to condemn the current Arab occupiers and demand that they leave Israel (land of the Jews).

Or, your second choice is that you find occupation acceptable which means Jews taking over the Arabs is acceptable behavior just like it was acceptable throughout the history of that land, i.e, Arabs killing Byzantines.

Make up your mind.

eno's avatar

Correction, Arabs occupying Jewish land as acceptable for choice 2***

cazzie's avatar

You are reducing the justification to suit your argument. By your own points, we should all be able to go back to our historic lands and occupy them. That simply doesn’t hold true in reality. By your argument, one group should be able to pick a point in history that suits their needs and make a claim, kicking out the current ‘occupier’ by saying… ‘We were here before, but we left… but now we want it back.’ That is NOT a strategy for world peace in any measure.

eno's avatar

It isn’t my argument. It is your occupational argument. Look at what you just wrote.

You’re now saying that picking and choosing a point in history is unacceptable behavior and at the same time your entire occupational argument rests on a double standard which is saying that occupation is acceptable in history, but not in our times. So, in history, the creation of modern Israel (Jews taking back Israel) is unacceptable for you, but, then you picked a different time in history (Arabs killing Byzantines) as acceptable occupation.

I keep telling you to make up your mind. You keep contradicting every statement you say. If you say we can’t pick points in history, then why are you doing it?

cazzie's avatar

@eno you keep your up your Arab hating and I’ll just keep up my hating of all people in general. Especially people who support the killing of women and children in our so-called ‘modern’ age. I can’t do anything to change history, but I sure as hell can say how I feel about the assholes now.

eno's avatar

Haha, exposing your flawed logic has nothing to do with hating on Arabs. You can play the race card all you want. It doesn’t work. Never has. Never will.

cazzie's avatar

It isn’t logic. Me speaking out against what happened hundreds of years ago between the ancient cultures of that area serves no purpose what so ever. I can, however, speak and vote now about current affairs, because I live in the present. Saying my logic is flawed because I don’t choose to justify killing by holding up ancient history as an example simply proves you support those who do.

cazzie's avatar

you are using the logic that says, it has always been happening and it is therefore justified. I’m saying that the world should change for the better. people and society should learn from past mistakes. It won’t happen though. because people are dumb and the world is crazy and there is no logic.

whitenoise's avatar

@eno
Sorry, but you didn’t expose flawed logic. All you did was erect a strawman. @cazzie never said anything about past occupations being right or wrong.

On top there is a huge difference between past and current situations: you can still change the current and the people currently maintaining a situation can therefore be held accountable.

It isn’t a double standard to approach current situations differently from ones in the past. It’s common sense. From the past we learn our lessons. In the now we need to aplly what we’ve learned.

eno's avatar

LOL. Do you realize what you two just said?

You’re saying that if an invader comes and kills my entire family and nation along with it, that I should not fight back and learn from “history” because retaliation is not a peaceful solution.

So when Europeans came to America and killed off most of the Indians, you two come along and tell the Indians (hypothetically) not to retaliate against America because it disrupts the peace. “Learn from history”. We should all just forgive everyone for killing off my people.

Haha, this is the most ridiculous bullshit I ever heard. Nice logic. Jesus style – get punched on one side of the face, so now just turn the other side, so he can punch you there too. Very appealing. Good luck with that.

ragingloli's avatar

The palestinians are fighting back, are they not?

eno's avatar

I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about the Jews who came back to Israel (modern Israel).

Cazzie started this that the Jews should leave since they’re the occupiers, hence my argument comes from there. According to Cazzie and Whitenoise, the Jews should have learned from history and not come back to Israel “for the sake of peace” The Jews should just forget the slaughtering of their people and forgive and forget.

Cazzie and whitenoise conveniently choose one point in history (the creation of modern Israel) and tell the Jews to forgive and forget, but they approve of all the genocide committed by the Arabs before the creation of modern Israel because they want to strengthen their argument in favor of the Arabs.

They think this is logical. I think this is ridiculous bullshit.

whitenoise's avatar

@eno, that is not what I said.

I suggest you read what people write and respond to that, not to what you imagine they write.

eno's avatar

That is exactly what you said. I just put it into practical terms so you can understand what you’re actually arguing in favor of. You approve of mass genocide and instead of retaliation, people should accept the genocide and forgive and forget for “world peace”.

I think we should ask you and Cazzie what you would do if invaders came and killed off your entire family line. Family, Friends, relatives.

Would you forgive and forget? Bygones be Bygones? You know, for the sake of “World Peace”.

JLeslie's avatar

@ragingloli If you see it as the Palestinians are fighting back, then do you think they should stop? Shouldn’t everyone stop killing each other in our so called modern world?

@cazzie I don’t understand why you see it as so black and white in the Palestinians favor. I can understand why both sides feel justified. What I don’t see is any will among the Palestinian government to make a compromise.

@whitenoise @cazzie If the Aboriginee in Australia started fighting for their land back, firing missiles into Sydney, would you expect to see the Australians to return to England and the other countries they came from? I don’t see why history counts for one group and not another? Aren’t there many situations across the world where Europeans occupied countries and now basically dominate those countries? Why is Israel so different?

Also, I am curious to know just what the culture is like among the Palestinians there. The Palestinians I know are American, modern, educated, they are competely Americanized. The impression I have of Gaza is that is not the case. If they are more tribal, patriarchal, and religious, getting their land “back” probably won’t make a huge change in the near future. The land there is not rich with oil or other resources, and there is not a rich King to provide incredible infrastructure from what I can tell.

@whitenoise You especially I am interested in your opinion, because I think you have better experience in the middle east and understand the culture better. Although, each country obviously is different, we can’t just lump the whole region into one group. Many Europeans I know are frustrated with the influx of Muslim Arabs into their country. The ones who are culturally more back in the dark ages don’t assimilate easily from what I can tell, and I don’t think most Europeans see those Arabs as being a productive part of society, nor are they fond of how women are treated within the culture.

eno's avatar

You should ask Cazzie and whitenoise about the 6-day war and the Yom-kippur war. They conveniently ignore that part of history where Israel was attacked by Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq and the Jews kicked their ass twice and took over Gaza Strip, Sinai, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

After getting your ass kicked some many times I would think the Arabs should let it go. As cazzie and whitenoise argues, in this ‘modern’ age, the Arabs should stop fighting back against Israel for the sake of world peace. Forgive and forget. Especially since they were the ones who attacked Israel.

JLeslie's avatar

@eno I think @cazzie doesn’t feel Israel had a right to be created at all, so the wars don’t even matter.

Unfortunately, as I have said before, I think Israel was partly created so Europe could get rid of their Jews. If we look at it from that point of view, it is just the Europeans doing the same crap they have done throughout history. Occupying and dominating other lands. England utilized Australia as a penal colony to get rid of their criminals. Europeans came to the Americas and claimed it as their land. With Israel Europe and the UN decided Israel would be a good place the Jews could go. President Roosevelt did not let in as many Jews as wanted to come into America. It isn’t like the countries were opening their doors as much as it was they voted to give the Jews a place to go.

I do wonder if part of the reason Europeans want the Palestinians to “win” is to keep them in the middle east. I’m not saying that is @cazzie or @whitenoise‘s goal, I think they truly want peace and they are explaining what they think will finally bring peace. Even if I disagree with parts of what they are saying I am interested in their opinions and why they see the situation as they do. Anyway, I think the governments think of all of it in geopolitical terms and self interests, and then the media within the countries have a slant according to what will benefit the countries. This is true in America too of course,

whitenoise's avatar

@eno I don’t want to discuss with you, as long as you seem so set on misrepresenting whatever I write. Even after I tell you that you were wrong in your ‘interpretation’, you persist.

I like discussion, but prefer to have them with people that discuss in a fair, intellectual way.

So far I don’t believe you are truly interested in my opinion, as you claim above, since in that case you would be more careful not to twist my words.

Your whole historic list is ridiculous anyway. To think that Palestine was like a traffic light that was either green, orange or red is just ignorant. The people living in Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century where descendants of all the various peoples that lived there before. When the Romans came, the people that before them where there didn’t just leave… they stayed and melted. The people living in Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century where the people that rightfully lived there. Jews, Druze, Arabs, Islamics, Chirstians… the whole lot. All of them Palestinians.

whitenoise's avatar

Dear @JLeslie

I think you know that I don’t want one party to win. I believe that any one scenario that claims that one party can only win through the demise of the other is doomed.

So far the Israeli government hasn’t impressed me with what they are doing to address the issues with the Palestinian people.

It reminds me of American police and the way they used tear gas to ‘calm down’ the protesters in Ferguson. Violence breeds violence. There are other solutions.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m not sure when the police used tear gas in Ferguson, but I know at night looters and criminals from nearby towns were taking advantage of the demonstrations to do their no good activities. Ferguson police have asked all demonstrations to take place during the day for the safety of everyone. They very well may have used unnecessary force, I’m not defending anything, I don’t know enough details, but I do know Ferguson officials are concerned and there is a criminal element complicating the issue. I hope the demonstrators heed the request to only demonstrate during the day for everyone’s safety.

As far as Israel, it seems to me as soon as they tried to establish themselves the surrounding countries wanted to battle. This set the tone. Maybe they did not expect Israel to win, but when Israel did win then they basically conquered those lands. Eventually, Egypt and Israel came to a treaty, and it has held. This can be an example of how it could be. Israel is still Israel, if they were willing to make a treaty before, I believe they are now. I don’t see where the Palestinianians have ever really been willing to compromise. If initiially the Palestinians had sought to live together the tone might have been very different. As it is now, the Arabs in Israel cannot be in the army, they are not really full equal citizens in the very country in which they live. That to me is a bad situation even outside of the Gaza situation. Is there a compromise the Palestinians would be willing to take? Am I missing something?

Do you think the Jews should leave Israel and settle somewhere else?

whitenoise's avatar

The number of Palestinians killed since 8 July 2008 comes to about 2069; 553 children, 253 women, and 96 elderly. More than 10310, including 3106 children, 1970 women and 368 elderly, have been injured.

Comparative numbers from NYT per 8 August 2014:
3,834 targets in Gaza struck by Israel – 1,881Palestinian deaths
2,927rockets launched at Israel from Gaza – 67Israeli deaths

I think that Israel has a right to exist. I also think that this right can only be sustained if it finds a way to peacefully coexist with the people that were living there prior its ‘creation’ and their direct descendants.

eno's avatar

@whitenoise

No one is twisting your words. You either refuse to see what you’re actually arguing in favor of or you’re unaware over your own comments. Keep hiding behind one-word, vague answers. It really helps your opinion.

Notice, that everytime I call you out on your arguments, instead of showing me where I am “mistaken”, you simply tell me I’m twisting your words – “misinterpreting”, which tells me you don’t know what the problem is.

No one claimed it was one race of people who lived in the land. I’m talking about the rulers of the land. I’m sure you understand that a landlord is not the same as a tenant and there is a dominant demographic, regardless.

eno's avatar

It reminds me of American police and the way they used tear gas to ‘calm down’ the protesters in Ferguson. Violence breeds violence. There are other solutions.

You do realize that they were rioting? They were throwing bricks and molotov cocktails at police, they had guns pointing at police, assaulting people and looting stores. These are not peaceful protesters. They should be lucky only tear gas was used and not getting tasered, or shot with rubber bullets, although, I think they started to.

eno's avatar

@JLeslie

Exactly, which means Cazzie is choosing, in history, which occupations are acceptable and which are not. However, she made it clear to us that she doesn’t approve of this method. She criticizes the idea of picking a point in history to suit ones needs. Yet, what does she do? She singles out 1 point in history (the creation of Israel) and makes an “occupation” argument against the Jews. That is called hypocrisy and a double standard.

I can play this game too. I’ll pick and choose a time when Jews were the original owners of the land and call the invading Arabs as the occupiers. Take your pick, 1200BCE, 160BCE, or later in history, 1967 and 1973 wars. I’ll also use Cazzie’s and whitenoise argument against the Arabs. The Arabs should forgive and forget the creation of modern Israel, and they should forgive and forget the wars where they attacked Israel and lost, all for the sake of World Peace. Turn the cheek, as Jesus tells taught the masses.

Convenient arguments, ey? But nooo, I’m accused of “twisting words”, “misinterpreting”. No need to actually explain yourself.

@JLeslie

The problem is that the way Cazzie and whitenoise want to achieve peace is by singling out one ethnic group in one particular point in history and telling this ethnic group that they should forgive and forget the slaughtering of their people and capturing of their land which is the equivalent of telling the American Indians to forgive and forget the genocide of their people and not to retaliate against Americans. I’m pretty that most people, unless you’re Jesus, would not tolerate the slaughtering of their people and capture of land, so cazzies and whitenoises idea of achieving peace is nonsensical because it is out of touch with human nature.

So the question is why single out the Jews? And why single out that particular point in history? I think it is because it suits their narrative. They love/feel bad for the Arabs. Convenient little argument, but a nonetheless, it is a double standard and hypocritical.

JLeslie's avatar

@whitenoise I’m horrified by the death toll, don’t get me wrong. Israeli deaths would be higher without the defense system Israel has. No matter what it is not a fair fight in that Israel has much better weaponry and a more efficient army. I’m not counting nuclear weapons, which were mentioned above I think, because Israel is not using nuclear weapons.

Why do the Palestinians persist? There has been a cease fire called for more than once, and they won’t agree or they break it. Israel has shown they will fight back tenfold, right or wrong, yet the Palestinians persist. It is suicide. They could agree to a cease fire and the barrage of fire would stop. This current situation started with the deaths of the Israeli and American boys. It’s absurd when you think about that so many should die.

I have asked here and on facebook many many times if the Paletistinians made any official statement condemning the crimes of killing the Israeli boys, and all I can think is there is none, because no one has produced any such thing. While Israel did condemn and will persecute the people who set the Palestinian boy on fire, a totally dispicable act. I am not clear about who fired the first missile or rocket. Was it Israel? Aren’t rockets constantly being fired by the Palestinians?

I truly believe in my heart Israel wants peace, wants to work towards peace, but that they don’t trust the Palestinians want the same. Not the Palestinians who are in charge right now. Hamas wants to get the Jews out, off that land altogether from what I understand. How can you negotiate with that?

Do you believe that if Israel gave into all of the demands, whatever they are if there even is a compromise proposed by Hamas, that the fighting will actually stop? That then the Israelis can trust the Palestinians and become good neighbors?

It seems to me Hamas hates the Jews and Israelis, wants them gine from the face of the earth. We don’t have to hate our enemies, we can try to understand them to help reach a solution.

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