General Question

GraceHead's avatar

Fellow Christian answerers, how faint are your memories of being chained captive by the evil one?

Asked by GraceHead (58 points ) February 25th, 2009

Hello. Thank you for answering this question. I left it open ended, so that you are free to share stories or what-have-you.

I thought of this question as I read this:
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=I_am_He%2C_Says_the_Lord._Come_and_Follow_Me_Closely...Chase_Not_After_the_Wicked

I am asking this of believers, so I presume that answerers will be those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

141 Answers

syz's avatar

WTF?

TenaciousDenny's avatar

What syz said.

EmpressPixie's avatar

I guess this is where I thank my lucky stars I’m not Christian because it means I’ve never been “chained captive by the evil one”.

Which is really just a much longer way of saying “WTF?!”, but I didn’t want to be repetitive.

RandomMrdan's avatar

ditto to all the above.

syz's avatar

Dude. Proselytize somewhere else.

dynamicduo's avatar

Your presumption is a bit misguided – people who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the lord may still answer your question, as I am doing right now.

Not to mention, there won’t be much of a conversation. I don’t believe the specific Christian population that you are trying to target is numerous enough to cause any discussion of value to occur. But good luck to you anyway.

cookieman's avatar

Depends. If the “evil one” is a beautiful, half-naked, redhead bearing homemade chocolate chip cookies (with walnuts)...my memories of that day would be rather sharp.

syz's avatar

<= wants to hear more about cprevite’s story

critter1982's avatar

@dynamicduo: I disagree I think that a large population of Christians of which believe in God also believe in the devil. I think it’s a shame that questions in general that are relevant to God or Jesus Christ immediately get made fun of or attempts are made to discredit it. I think it’s a good question but don’t think I’ll take part in this particular bashing!

Sparkie510's avatar

This is a wind up is it not?

Grisson's avatar

Lurve to anyone except GraceHead, of course, who can find where the GraceHead’s avatar was originally found on the net.

RandomMrdan's avatar

@ sparkie510 what’s a wind up?

Grisson's avatar

It’s a question that is not a question, but a statement. “If you don’t believe as I do, you are not a Christian.”

I’m thinking this guy has a BS in BS.

Sparkie510's avatar

@grisson. And where was yours found?

SuperMouse's avatar

@critter1982 this question looks remarkably similar to this question and both have broken links with zero information. Many people coming to this question with those facts in mind might have a difficult time believing that it is a legitimate question designed to begin a genuine discussion about religion and Chritianity. It seems this is more baiting than anything else.

SuperMouse's avatar

@Grisson it looks a bit like Seth Rogan to me. Am I close?

critter1982's avatar

@supermouse: Baiting for what…..He has made no claims to anything. It would be nice if the linked worked though??

fireside's avatar

It seems like poorly thought out internet marketing to get some links to the site.
Kind dumb to not even check to see if the links go anywhere.

Sparkie510's avatar

@randommrden. A joke.

poofandmook's avatar

Never a dull moment, boys and girls. Never a dull moment.

I left my Bible in the frizzer, along with the person thumping it. sorry.

RandomMrdan's avatar

@grisson it looks like Victor from the movie Rules of Attraction, here is the link to IMDB http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0085126/.

fireside's avatar

@poofandmook – I sometime think the mods create these accounts when the questions get slow. : )

bythebay's avatar

Whatever GraceHead’s motives are; look at the attention his Q is receiving, and number of attempts to reach the link.

critter1982's avatar

@fireside: I think you’re on to something?

dynamicduo's avatar

I doubt the mods do it. But other users? That’s as sure as rain.

kevbo's avatar

This guy may be a troll, but he sure as hell isn’t proselytizing. You people can be such goddamn boneheads when it comes to people who want to discuss religion. I swear to God it’s like the final frontier for Fluther bigotry.

Grisson's avatar

@Sparkie510 I found it on Picasa.
If one believes this guy is phony (a wind up, or an admin) then the image would probably come from somewhere besides the guy’s digital camera.

SuperMouse's avatar

@critter1982, baiting to get people riled up, a simple troll, every board has one. The fact that GraceHead started both of these threads and seemingly disappeared is further proof to me.

critter1982's avatar

@supermouse: Yeah you are probably right!

Les's avatar

@kevbo: Cheers. You read my mind. With answers like that, we’re going to get you in the lurve 10K club in the next hour.

Sparkie510's avatar

Perhaps the question could have just been phrased better then. Being “chained captive by the evil one” is a bit extreme isn’t it? – a bit of a niche market I’d say. Where is GraceHead anyway? Probably having a real laugh reading this thread whilst stroking his goat…

poofandmook's avatar

Regarding what Kev said… I just don’t like religious discussions (or political) because people can’t help but get wrapped up in them, and things get out of control nearly every single time. There are people, I admit, I don’t have a diminished respect for because of some of the conversations that happened during the elections. That’s not the aim of Fluther, but that’s unfortunately what a heated discussion comes down to sometimes. Maybe that’s the reason why people try to shoot down political and religious conversations before they start? Peacekeeping efforts only?

Sparkie510's avatar

Just so there’s no confusion, ‘goat’ is not some weird English slang term for ‘member’! I meant it in the satanic sense.

Grisson's avatar

So, taking @kevbo‘s response to heart, if this question were re-worded “Christians, do you remember before you were Christian?” would it change the discussion?
And @GraceHead, if that’s not an accurate translation, please feel free to jump in and correct me.

critter1982's avatar

@poofandmook: Well regarding the question, he was only looking for opinions from other Christians. Wouldn’t that keep the peace as well, if other flutherers whom happen to be non-Christian simply did not answer? In general I search for questions that I can answer not ones that I can bash.

GraceHead's avatar

Proper link
Sorry the other one was broke.
Thanks for alerting me, but you don’t need the link to answer the question.

-Trent

PS. the picture is of myself taken in St. Louis (out of town trip.) I have long enough arms to photograph myself. Wonder why that is such an intriguing topic… but I would appreciate if the discussion stayed with the topic, so please take the off-topic chatter elsewhere.

shilolo's avatar

[Mod says] Thank you Grisson for trying to keep this “on topic”. The question is clearly a bit vague, and understandably, has created a bit of a debate. For future reference, please let’s avoid more drama by engaging in off-topic conversation. Perhaps after GraceHead clarifies his question better, we can get better answers.

Edit: Trent, since you posted right before I did, would you mind clarifying your question for everyone? Thanks.

Foolaholic's avatar

As much as I’d love to dive in, I’m a devout Pastafarian, so I’m gonna leave this one alone.

patg7590's avatar

“Fellow Christian Answerers” means that it is simply unnecessary for all non-christians to jump in just to hate and intimidate.

Feel free to take your negativity elsewhere.

shilolo's avatar

[Mod says] @patg7590 Welcome to Fluther. As a general rule, we do not permit questions that specifically include one group ± exclude all others. So, stating “it is simply unnecessary for all non-christians to jump in” really doesn’t jive with a core Fluther principle, that encourages everyone to discuss a topic. Feel free to send me a private message if you have any questions.

Grisson's avatar

Since in my church (PC-USA), we are baptised as infants, the answer to the question as I restated it, would be “I don’t remember”.

In the baptism sacrament in PC-USA it is said that baptism is the acceptance of the child into the family of the church so that the child will never remember a time when he or she was not Christian.

My answer to the original question is similar: “I don’t remember such a thing, and I don’t think I was ever chained to anything.”

adreamofautumn's avatar

I am seriously, legitimately confused. First of all…who the hell is “the evil one”, second of all am I supposed to have been chained by him during my lifetime and third of all if I was am I supposed to remember it???

patg7590's avatar

I don’t think it’s necessarily excluding non-christians, I think anyone is free to answer, but all the random, “WTF” answers don’t really add to the discussion imho

miasmom's avatar

There are two ways to look at this question, what are your memories prior to becoming a believer? Or, are you so mature as a believer that you aren’t held captive by the evil one (Satan)?

Since I became a believer at a very young age, I don’t have a dramatic before and after picture. So, in that case, my memory would be faint.

Yet, I still struggle daily with sin as I become a mature believer, and I will until the day that I die…but does it hold me captive? I guess sometimes because I struggle with it.

Those are my thoughts on the question.

adreamofautumn's avatar

I think the “WTF” answers come from the fact that the question really doesn’t appear to make any sense?? Maybe if the link had worked, or the question had been better phrased there would have been better answers.

emt333's avatar

“religion is the opiate of the masses”...i.e WTF

Sparkie510's avatar

In all honesty, I think that many people are sceptical of religion these days – partially because it is associated with so many problems in the world due to extremist views / terrorism. I’m not saying all religion is bad – but there is a lot of negativity around it in this day and age, which may explain many of the responses to this question.

essieness's avatar

“how faint are your memories of being chained captive by the evil one?”

I am certainly not trying to make fun or be rude or any of that… but I don’t get it. Who’s the evil one and who did he have chained captive and where? And why is this type of rhetoric used rather than normal words? That’s a part of Chrisitianity I really don’t get…Please help me understand.

poofandmook's avatar

I should note, that someone who’s had a particularly rough life, might have a polar opposite view of who “the evil one” really is.

fireside's avatar

@GraceHead – It looks like the link you added here is for your other question. Since this one is unclear, can you please provide the correct link to the “evil one” article or provide a quote from it?
That might help with our confusion and help to provide some context to your question.

cwilbur's avatar

I think the premise of the question involves an overly narrow view of what being Christian entails, and I think it’s nonsense.

@GraceHead: your God is too small. Open your eyes and your mind.

patg7590's avatar

@essieness : the evil one is supposed to represent Satan, the devil, lucifer, the champion of sin and of evil.

In Christianity, were are all part of this fallen world, and God is on a mission to restore and redeem it to its original perfection. He is always near, guiding, listening, helping to free us and for us to live in loving service to Him and to each other, As was intended originally in creation.

So in a sense, we’re all chained, to the things we are addicted to. To our destructive and harmful behaviors that deprive us of our humanity.

Pornography for example is destructive imho because it distorts the beautiful reality of sex and turns it into a mockery that objectifies women and tears people’s souls out when they end up empty and alone. Having the feeling of sex and none of the physical oneness meant to accompany it. It robs us of how we were meant to live. It makes us sub-human.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the metaphorical language.

Standswithacane's avatar

I did not take the question literally, and find it hard to believe anyone else could except for the purpose of belittling the guy. Now if he says he meant it literally I take that back.

I certainly would have formulated a more precisely worded question. In any event, I can answer it in a metaphorical sense by saying that I deal with demons everyday. I constantly wage internal battles in an effort to show restraint where prudent, to show compassion when needed, to give counsel when called upon, or to be tolerant when I’m impassioned or angry. I battle demons that make me want to take shortcuts, be a bad husband or father, or just be a general angry asshole. I struggle to do the right thing every freakin day, and it’s probably all because of these damned demons.

And I take solace and comfort in my faith without pushing my beliefs on anyone else. But I also grapple with the inconsistencies that an educated person must by necessity grapple with when confronting matters of faith.

So, metaphorically speaking I can’t remember a time when I was unaccompanied by demons. But I’m glad I have my faith – a Christian faith – that accompanies me as well. It suits me. Whatever suits you is a question for you.

In the end however, I believe we are all linked by one undeniable truth – and it just so happens to be carved into the stone facade of a Presbyterian Church near my office – and that is “God is Love.”. And if you really think about that you will find it to be monumentally profound, as well as the fundamental tenet of all spirituality.

That’s my wayward rant. If you don’t agree then we can agree to disagree. Or if you would like to tell me what you think of me in person, then I’ll happily meet you in the dark parking lot of my choice and point you out to one of my scary inner demons.

Now be nice, Dammit.

Judi's avatar

In answer to your question. I remember.

Sparkie510's avatar

AMEN. Thank you for coming ladies and gentleman. Shall we move on?

GraceHead's avatar

@adreamofautumn
let me explain the terms a bit for you and anyone else that is curious.
Scripture defines a contrast between what and who one is before rebirth into Christianity and after. There are myriad ways to describe this contrast and there are dozens of terms that fit, though one is not limited by scriptural terms to describe it.
Nevertheless, this site is useful as a list (long but not exhaustive) of some of the terms.

As reference to the question at-hand please note the following can be found at that list linked above:
I John 5:19 – “the whole world lies in the evil one.”
Matt. 13:38 – “the sons of the evil one”

I hope this helps.

-Trent (aka GraceHead)

GraceHead's avatar

@essieness .
Please see my answer above as I believe it addresses your question.

Judi's avatar

Some people are still chained after they become Christians. Becoming a Christian is sometimes a process. Not everyone has a “road to Damascus” experience. I lost my chains when I realized that I was a butterfly who sometimes forgot and acted like a caterpillar instead of beating myself up for not being a butterfly.

GraceHead's avatar

@fireside
I appreciate the help with the link and the desire to know and understand the terms that I used. I am somewhat surprised. I doubt I would take the time and attention… much less take up the protest of the others… to understand every word of a question. I would more likely figure there are other questions for me and this isn’t one of them.

Thus, the link, is not really needed to answer the question from my viewpoint.

If a question came from a Physicist on String-Theory that was over my head… or another about theoretical astrophysics etc. I really can’t see me making a big deal about it and trying to shame the asker for not writing a question that I can understand. I would more likely go on to other questions quietly and peacefully.

But that is just me….
Ripening,
Trent

tinyfaery's avatar

Ooh. Kinky.

Grisson's avatar

@GraceHead Happy to answer your question if you ask it in this forum. I have no intention of getting into a ‘reply-based’ religious debate with you.

You compared infant baptism to Jewish circumcision and stated “there is no memory of what has gone before. It just has always been, right?”

No, I disagree. Just because I don’t remember something doesn’t mean it didn’t exist before, but I don’t believe in a God who doesn’t accept children as they are.

And quite frankly, I believe we are all childen in God’s eyes.

Dorkgirl's avatar

http://trumpetcallofgod.com/ or this one http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Main_Page
Here are links if anyone wanted to take a peek.

Somewhat off topic question—if I’m Catholic or Episcopalian or Baptist does that mean I’m not “Christian” and therefore can’t answer this question? I thought these religions are Christian Religions. Why the exclusionary disclaimer?

cwilbur's avatar

@GraceHead: the problem is not that people don’t understand the question. The problem is that people do understand the question, and think it’s based on false premises.

@Dorkgirl: Many Christians attempt to take sole ownership of the word. All of them fail.

patg7590's avatar

@cwilbur “Many Christians attempt to take sole ownership of the word. All of them fail.”

**applause**

Grisson's avatar

@Dorkgirl

Christian: of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ

So by that definition Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists and Presbyterians et al… should qualify. Any denomination based on the teachings of Christ.

critter1982's avatar

Isn’t a Christian anybody who follows Jesus Christ?

Grisson beat me to it. :)

cwilbur's avatar

@critter: Yes. Which is why it’s irksome and annoying when one follower of Jesus Christ attempts to claim that someone else who follows Jesus Christ in a different way is “not really Christian.”

GraceHead's avatar

@Grisson
Don’t want to debate? Cool.
That makes two of us. But frankly, I just think it was a communication on my part.

Indeed no child comes into this world “fallen” as many Christians portray. Each innocent child is precious in the sight of the Creator.

GraceHead's avatar

@Dorkgirl
I don’t think I have met any of those people that you listed, who would not call themselves “Christian.” I hope that helps. Thanks for sharing a link… I sent one earlier to the direct page that I meant to reference. Nevertheless, the link is not needed to answer the question…

critter1982's avatar

@cwilbur: Didn’t realize that was occurring in this post?

GraceHead's avatar

@cwilbur
you wrote—””“The problem is that people do understand the question, and think it’s based on false premises.”””

I would appreciate it if you explained what you mean here.
Thanks,

cwilbur's avatar

@GraceHead: The idea that there is an “evil one” in the first place is far more Miltonian than Biblical, and while it makes for good drama, people are entirely capable of doing their own thing without needing a mythological tempter. Satan is just a convenient scapegoat.

And so I reject the premise that there is a single powerful Evil One, and the premise that he chains people, metaphorically or literally.

loser's avatar

I can honestly say that this is one of the strangest things I’ve ever read on Fluther, or anywhere really.

But to answer your question, no.

GraceHead's avatar

@cwilbur

Please try to pay attention to what I am asking. You aren’t doing yourself many favors by making points that are unrelated.

you wrote—””“The problem is that people do understand the question, and think it’s based on false premises.”””

I would appreciate it if you explained what you mean here.
A good place to start is by pasting from answerers who have clearly understood the question and the terms used, but have explained their objection to what is perceived by them as a false premise. You are the one that said this is occurring and we are all reading the same replies… however, you are finding something in everyone’s replies that I am not… Therefore, explain what brought you to that conclusion or retract your bogus statement.

Again… I am NOT asking for you to cough up some fresh (UNheard-of-before) reason to say that YOU think there is a false premise. I AM asking you to justify your characterization of “people” that think there is a false premise by delving into replies that preceeded your comment. Also, while you are at it… find some justification for your assertion that people are understanding the terms used in the question. (because I rest assured I can easily find proof to the contrary in the foregone replies to the question.)

Thanks in advance,
Trent

EmpressPixie's avatar

@GraceHead: Okay, I give. I knew what this question was about, but thought the premise was ridiculous. I’m in cwilbur’s group. As is, I suspect, anyone with the saying “WTF” in their response. Cwilbur is a regular here. Cwilbur knows us. Cwilbur can look beyond the surface and see what is there.

SuperMouse's avatar

@GraceHead I’m still not sure I understand your question. Are you asking Christian’s specifically if they remember what life was like before they turned to Christ?

If you are interested, one way to broaden this question would be to ask people of faith in general if they remember how they felt before they found a faith they truly believed in and embraced. Speaking for myself as a non-Christian, yet spiritual, individual (I am Baha’i’), I would be willing to share my story.

critter1982's avatar

@EmpressPixie : The problem is not that people ascertain the idea that the premise of the question is ridiculous or not. It’s the fact that bigotry is alive and well in this post. At what point in the question did you and others become so offended as that you felt the need to post your irrelevant opinion on the matter.

EmpressPixie's avatar

@critter1982 I don’t think it was the matter so much as how it was presented. I’ve been part of great debates on here before about this subject, but when you present like this… the ridiculous factor is, to an extent, too high to take the question seriously. It just gives you a strong reaction of What-the….

So I posted my honest reaction.

SuperMouse's avatar

@critter1982 the thing about Fluther is that I think most of us believe that no one’s opinion is irrelevant. Don’t get me wrong, I am not for bigoted responses to any questions, but a question seemingly this divisive, on the heels of another very similar question from the same brand new poster both with broken links and very difficult to understand would tend to raise eyebrows. When ulterior motives are suspected, people are going to react differently than if they felt the question was truly designed to begin a dialog. I am pretty sure that is what happened here.

critter1982's avatar

Other than the obvious parable what is so ridiculous about the question?

critter1982's avatar

@supermouse: I didn’t say anybody’s opinion was irrelevant. I did note that most of this dialogue was extremely irrelevant to the question.

EmpressPixie's avatar

@critter1982: Actually you said, “your irrelevant opinion on the matter” which does, indeed, sound like you think my opinion is irrelevant.

GraceHead's avatar

@EmpressPixie
””“Cwilbur can look beyond the surface and see what is there.”””
WOW… just WOW.

What was the premise that you find in error anyway?

-Trent

GraceHead's avatar

@SuperMouse

That is a fine suggestion. Thank you.

-Trent

critter1982's avatar

@EmpressPixie: I should have worded it differently I apologize. I don’t think your opinion is irrelevant. I meant your opinion was irrelevant to the matter.

EDIT: Even that sounds bad. Maybe your answer was irrelevant to the matter?

GraceHead's avatar

@critter1982

Bigotry is certainly alive in well in this string of replies.
GUIDELINIES state:

_Our trusty moderators will remove anything that is:

—Tragically misspelled
—Totally open-ended or poorly thought out
—Trolling (or thinly masked propaganda)
—Self-promotional (No peddling, promos, or marketing)
—Egocentric attention-grabbing
Hateful, abusive, or bigoted
—Deceitful
—Vague, confusing, or generally non-sensical
—A personal attack
Off-topic chatter or an inside joke
—Excessive txtspeak (“ZOMG r u 4 real?!?!?!!? LOL”)_

It is written from fluther.com that “trusty moderators will remove.” I’ll just wait and see if they actually live up to their word.

-Trent

GraceHead's avatar

@critter1982
Or maybe I should only ask questions that make their answers more relevant… ha!

EmpressPixie's avatar

Um, by your own admission this question is totally open ended (which invited many of the responses) and could be considered thinly masked propaganda, plus it was addressed to only certain flutherers, all of which are also against the guidelines. But all of the chatter has been about the question, which makes it not off-topic in my point of view.

cwilbur's avatar

@GraceHead: I explained the false premises underlying the question.

If there is no Evil One, and he does not chain people literally or metaphorically, then there should be no memories of being “chained by the Evil One.”

Asking me to explain once I have already explained will get you nowhere.

GraceHead's avatar

cwilbur,
You said: ””“I explained the false premises underlying the question.”””

LOL. OK, I won’t take that from you… lets pretend that is what I asked.

GraceHead's avatar

@EmpressPixie

That is certainly one way to look at it.

SuperMouse's avatar

@GraceHead, again, what exactly are you asking?

@EmpressPixie, you took the words right out of my mouth, thank you. @critter1982 thanks for the clarification.

jlm11f's avatar

[mod says:] No quips that have been written so far are being removed since the question does not meet Fluther guidelines either. Any future off topic/mocking quips will be removed. Thank you.

Edit – If anyone wants to discuss this moderating decision further, please PM me instead of writing on here.

Dorkgirl's avatar

@GraceHead—part of my question re: “Christians” was what I read as an exclusion. It seems that many “born-again” or other non-denominational Christians think of themselves as different, perhaps better than other “Christians” and separate themselves from the rest of the pack through wording such as “I am asking this of believers, so I presume that answerers will be those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord.”
I think of myself as Christian, but I do not follow a prescribed faith. I have “Christian” values. Your language suggests that “believers” are different from me.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Everbody…Please allow me to give the definitive answer to this charming and…awww forget it. Y’all wouldn’t believe me anyway.

Peace out,
GOD

P.S. whose bush do i have to burn to get some respect around here…

Introverted_Leo's avatar

…um, not very faint? I live with my memories every day.

As a Christian, though, whenever I hear other Christians using flowery phrases…something inside me just goes off. Like a bomb. Seriously. Why can’t people speak plainly? By then end of a sermon, you’re like, “Wtf did you just say to us?!”

willbrawn's avatar

So when I read the question I was like WTF. Seriously man. Your going to get torn down here. Especially when you ask specific questions like this. Especially because even being a Christian it makes zero sense when you first read it.

breedmitch's avatar

@Grisson : PC-USA in the hiz-ouse!!

GraceHead's avatar

@everyone.

Yo!

My question drew many offsides and as I read it again, it certainly could easily be viewed as more than a little offensive to non-christians. It was poorly worded, and I underestimated how my wording could erupt in a provocation. Therefore, let me say this to clear the air.

Sorry. Many regrets.

I cannot edit the question, nor was it deemed appropriate to delete after so much contribution from the collective. So, please understand that the question could just as easily been worded in such a way that many of you would not have bristled against it and I will take precaution to use better language in the future with that in mind.

I know many of you want to feel free to answer questions no matter to whom it is addressed and that is always your right, and I would not want it any other way. If you have something to say on the matter, your input is always welcome, even if I start a question with “programmers…” or “republicans… ” or “athiests, ...” ... the point is that the question may be worded with those people in mind, but that you are capable of knowing how to answer a question even if you don’t fall into this or any other narrow category.

Ripening,
Trent

Foolaholic's avatar

Ramen to that!

SuperMouse's avatar

@GraceHead, but what was the question you were asking?

fireside's avatar

@GraceHead – I was raised Christian and believe in Jesus Christ, so I guess I’m qualified to answer your question.

I also think it is amusing that you compare yourself and your question to one coming from a Physicist on String Theory, whereby I am unqualified to answer your highly technical question. I did understand it perfectly, but wasn’t sure where you were coming from since “Evil One” isn’t a term from the Bible. it is in the Book of Mormon though. Thanks for apologizing for not being more clear, but it would have been more helpful to clarify.

I understood your question perfectly, I just wanted to know what your thoughts were on the subject to get some context because it is very vague.

To me it sounds like Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.

I also like this quote:
O Divine Providence! Bestow Thou in all things purity and cleanliness upon the people of Baha. Grant that they be freed from all defilement, and released from all addictions. Save them from committing any repugnant act, unbind them from the chains of every evil habit, that they may live pure and free, wholesome and cleanly, worthy to serve at Thy Sacred Threshold and fit to be related to their Lord. Deliver them from intoxicating drinks and tobacco, save them, rescue them, from this opium that bringeth on madness, suffer them to enjoy the sweet savours of holiness, that they may drink deep of the mystic cup of heavenly love and know the rapture of being drawn ever closer unto the Realm of the All-Glorious. For it is even as Thou hast said: ‘All that thou hast in thy cellar will not appease the thirst of my love—bring me, O cup-bearer, of the wine of the spirit a cup full as the sea!’
Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 149

And Saint Augustine:
So then by a humble devoutness we return to Thee; and Thou cleansest us from our evil habits, and art merciful to their sins who confess, and hearest the groaning of the prisoner, and loosest us from the chains which we made for ourselves, if we lift not up against Thee the horns of an unreal liberty, suffering the loss of all, through covetousness of more, by loving more our own private good than Thee, the Good of all.
Confessions of St Augustine, Book 3

But to answer your question as answered: not very, i suppose.

loser's avatar

The more I read this question, the more I just keep thinking, mushrooms…

Blondesjon's avatar

@loser… :) ‘shrooms.

those are what our ancient simian ancestors stumbled across that led to McDonalds, Carrot Top, and Male Pattern Baldness

GraceHead's avatar

@everyone,

Rather than attempt to explain to all what I meant by this question, please allow me to abort this one and start a different and new question that has the potential to get off to a better start. Sometimes, you just need to know when to put a horse out to pasture. ...

loser's avatar

Or shut the frizzer, as the case may be…

SuperMouse's avatar

@loser, shut the frizzer, hide it under the pool shell, go eat some pancakes and put this thread to bed. Lurve to you.

Knotmyday's avatar

My memories of being chained by the evil one are as clear and bright as the beautiful fresh autumn day that he chose to bind me in.

At first, it started like anyother day. I awoke, shat, showered, shaved (everything), and brushed my beautiful pearly whites.

Then I called Kevin (AKA, “the evil one”).

“Meet me at the leather bar, 10:30 sharp, you dirty, filthy little man,” his husky voice breathed at me through the earpiece.

“Ohhhh-okay,” I stuttered. Kevin has that effect on me; I cannot splice two words together near his overpowering presence- why? It can’t just be his sexy hotness. It can’t just be the tuft of hair portruding from his half-unbuttoned silk shirt, or the look that he gives me (only me) as his eyes rake me from lips to knees.

Why? Why am I at the leather bar, being plied with drinks by scoundrels, scoffing their advances for him, my Kevin, my dark angel, the evil one?

The answer to all these questions darkens the tuck-and-roll doorway, like the sweetness of sunlight splashing over a brook after a gorgeous spring rain.

“Mike,” his voice spreads across the bar and envelops me like a rainbow of delight. “I’ve come to take you home.”

The bar swells in anticipation. “Oh my god, kiss him!” calls out Ted (the realtor), who has Eric (the junior law partner) jammed into the space between the bar and the video jukebox. They wait expectantly, and Kevin licks his beautiful lips and smiles tantalizingly.

“No,” he says. The bar is still reeling. “Come here, Mike.”

I feel like I’m dreaming. I rise, and seem to float toward him, my feet hardly touching the ground. He laughs softly, and backs slowly out the door. Our lips meet in the blinding sunlight.

Then we are in the car. I cannot stop touching, my hands like magnets, his body steel, his laughter sparkling…washing over my being like rivulets of flaming pleasure..

Then, his beautiful loft, his beautiful bed. The chains! The chains!

Yes, the memories are as fresh and vivid as sunlight on water.

Jesus Christ, who dined with prostitutes, tax collectors, and “sinners,” and who clearly stated “Love thy neighbor” via the “Good Samaritan” parable…who also stated, when asked “are you the messiah,” “YOU SAY THAT I AM,” obviously understood something that modern day, ahem, “Christians” do not.

Try to figure out what that (not so arcane thing) is.

Foolaholic's avatar

@Knotmyday

You are truly a piece of work. Many lurves.

loser's avatar

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The chains! The chains!

Knotmyday's avatar

@fool, may his noodly goodness fuel thy faith-less-ness-ness. May you all bask in the marinara of His kindness.

SuperMouse's avatar

Between the turn this thread is taking and girlofscience’s latest masturpiece* (which I am enjoying tremendously), it is a pretty racy night here at the reference desk!

Get it? Mastur-piece! I am so clever! Ok, Knotmyday is more clever than me….

Knotmyday's avatar

hee hee, mastUR-piece

SuperMouse's avatar

@Knotmyday I’m going to change that while I can still edit the response! Thanks!

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

The memories are quite fresh actually. But it’s nice to see that the grass is in fact greener on this side of the fence. =)

eponymoushipster's avatar

1) Why is he “ripening”?
2) Why would you baptize a child? Even Jesus didn’t get baptized til he was 30. A child can’t decide what he wants to do.
3) this thread is pretty funny.

Noon's avatar

I’d like to just make a quick comment about the idea that a non-believer answering this question is the same as someone without a background in theoretical physics answering a question on quantum string theory.

What many “believers” often forget is that many, if not most, non-believers were once “believers”. Even though I am currently an atheist, I grew up roman catholic, had 14 years of private catholic education, and studied the bible for a good party of my life. I think that gives me some authority to answer questions directed towards believers.

If I asked a question about quantum physics, I would more than appreciate answers from retired physicists, or those who have moved passed, or away from quantum string theory after having studied it.

fireside's avatar

@eponymoushipster – I was wondering about the ripening thing too.

Blondesjon's avatar

He’s still green here but beginning to see the way things work therefore becoming riper. Christian fruit metaphor.

sorry. parable

eponymoushipster's avatar

damn fruity if you ask me

patg7590's avatar

@Noon
being raised Catholic and being a “believer” may not always be the same thing.
You can drag me to the football game every sunday but you cannot make me a fan.
Having Biblical knowledge also doesn’t make you a believer, it makes you knowledgeable about the Bible.
and i love how you put “believer” in quotes and “non-believer” and “atheist” not it quotes.

@eponymoushipster
yeah baptizing an infant doesn’t really make any sense unless he smells…. :-/

I feel bad for this guy who started this post, he got so….
attacked.

eponymoushipster's avatar

@patg7590 yeah, but what he asked was pretty thinly veiled…

shilolo's avatar

[mod says] Ok, everyone settle down. It seems that GraceHead (Trent) made a sincere effort to apologize and rectify the situation. Lets leave it at that, please.

Noon's avatar

@patq7590
My point is, if you have been dragged to a football game every Sunday, I think it gives you the right to answer a question on fluther about foot ball. But I was not just dragged to sunday school, I once “believed”. So its more like you having played football every sunday.

I put “believer” in quote, because I personally take issue with one religion (Christianity) usurping the verb “to believe”, to only mean belief in their brand of religion. The verb believe should be neutral.

patg7590's avatar

@Noon

Fair enough.
lol
And I applaud your quotation marks reasoning

SeventhSense's avatar

Grace- Where does Grace figure into the discussion? Perhaps that is a better question

Judi's avatar

@SeventhSense Are you Lutheran?

SeventhSense's avatar

@Judi
Hey ,
I was raised a Lutheran but now I kind of lean towards Gandhi’s statement- “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Judi's avatar

@seventhsense, some Christians do a better job of being Christlike than others. I just recognized the Grace refference from Lutheran Confirmation.

SeventhSense's avatar

I’m not judging. I just attempt to be brave and love. And I too fail miserably at times.‹(•¿•)›

ignorantsavage's avatar

i forgot the question…

SeventhSense's avatar

@Knotmyday
That is the most irreverent and funny thing I have ever read.

loser's avatar

Wait, I think I’m having a flashback! Does that count?

asmonet's avatar

This is what I miss when my internet goes out for three weeks? Damn it!

fireside's avatar

@asmonet – “when my internet goes out” – suuuuurrrrre
We all know you were chained by the evil one for the past three weeks.

asmonet's avatar

Am I that transparent? ;’(

cwilbur's avatar

@asmonet, next time you’re chained by the evil one, make sure he gives you a safeword for when you want a Fluther break.

asmonet's avatar

Foliage.

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