Not everyone takes a benign view of Halloween. What do you think?
Asked by
dpworkin (
27085
)
October 31st, 2009
Here is a point of view I wasn’t aware of until yesterday. I am particularly struck by the image of “dedicated” Demonic candy, waiting to ambush unwary Wal*Mart shoppers.
Have you a dissenting view of Halloween? Would you share it, please? Or just give us your response to the website.
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79 Answers
oh for the love of Christ you have got to be kidding me
hahahhahaha
I mean hahahhahahah
The author in TFA signaled extreme views with her first two sentences: “Halloween—October 31—is considered a holiday in the United States. In fact, it rivals Christmas with regard to how widely celebrated it is.” Both of these statements are incorrect.
Halloween is not a holiday. It is also not a religious (or anti-religious, as the case may be) ritual. It is a custom. And, like other customs such as Valentine’s Day or Mother’s Day, is simply meant to mark the passing of the seasons in a light hearted manner. In my opinion those who try to make it something that it isn’t are extremists and as such should not be taken seriously.
@PapaLeo I was surprised at the vehemence, but it never occurred to me not to take her seriously. She seems very serious indeed, and I imagine there is a not inconsiderable group of people that shares those views and those fears. To me it was a window onto another culture. I didn’t intend this question as a joke; I intended it as an attempt to learn more.
I have come across families that don’t celebrate Halloween because of their Christian beliefs, but I have never seen such a detailed explanation of the issues. I can’t shake the visual of a bunch of black clad, pointy hat wearing ladies standing around a cauldron full of fun size Three Musketeers dedicating them to evil. I also can’t help but wonder if Ms. Daniels has actually witnessed any of the “wicked cruel activities” that she alleges go on behind the scenes.
My boys dress up and will go trick or treating tonight. We carved pumpkins last night and I have candy at the ready. I’m fairly confident that, aside from stomach aches, none of us will wake up tomorrow any the worse for wear.
Here is a nice counterpoint to the lunatic lady with the ‘demonic’ views of All Hallow’s Eve, or Samhain, as some folks call it.
The link you provided only proves that people who believe in spirits, demons, and ‘candy prayed over by witches’ are quite clueless. Thanks for the laugh.
She makes the sane Christians look bad.
@SuperMouse and when you end up in Hell, remember, all of us people that celebrate Halloween exactly for what it is, a fun custom will be holding your place on the Lake of Fire. I’ve always wanted lake front property.~
These must be the people whose houses get TPed or get the flaming bag of dog poop on the front porch…oh, wait. Kids don’t do those kinds of pranks anymore because you can get arrested.
One Halloween, a friend and I were up on his roof with water balloons, waiting for his brother to come home. We accidentally pelted his dad instead. I never ran so fast in my life. 35 years later, it’s a legend.
I noticed in another thread that a Flutherite remembers homes which dispensed religious articles on Halloween. Was that part of this same meme?
I seem to recall a sermon once about most of how Christians think of Hell, really comes from Dante, and not the Bible. Apparently there’s really not that much about Hell in the Bible?
@PandoraBoxx You’re basing that on one sermon you heard? Very intelligent…
Ob Topic is a phrase from the stone age when people used to post on bulletin boards. It means “Obligatory post to keep to the topic.”
Seriously though, if you understand history, and you understand the mindset of the pagans that came before Christianity, Halloween makes all sorts of sense. It is a primitive view of how the world works, and how to help protect yourselves from the supposed evil spirits that roamed among the living during that one night a year. Historically, the Christian anti-hero Satan (or Lucifer) was an angel. Angels, according to the bible, have no gender. Lucifer fell from grace. Yet, Satan is referred to as a male.
How he went from looking like the angels, Michael, Gabriel, etc, to a goat footed demon, is easy. Pan was a pagan god of the woods. So was Cernunnos. Pan was a satyr, Cernunnos had horns like a deer and was very aggressive. Both were adept at ‘exciting’ human beings. The early Christians merely borrowed the imagery, borrowed the holy days of the pagans, and based their own religion upon it. The way to win a war is to make your enemies less than human.
April Fool’s Day is what the Christians renamed the original pagan New Years’ Day.
Maybe I’m Pollyanna, but I really don’t run into too many Satanists. I live in an area with a lot of over-the-edge young people, and most of their demons are their own, usually related to being bipolar or untreated depression.
How rampant is Satanism?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!!
How many kinds are there?
@PandoraBoxx You are right that there are not much reference to hell and the devil in the bible. Simply because it’s not a part of Judaism. The closest would be Gehenna(city garbage dump), which is works more like that of a simile rather than a place. We owe much of our depictions of hell to Dante and other medieval religious thinking, but zebra is right about the Greek – as well as there was Egyptian and other imagery from the Levant. God is still shown in the image of Zeus, and the devils attributes has been shifting from a pan like Dionysus to the Baal bull.
@PandoraBoxx Google it, as there are several types. Most Satanists follow the ‘scriptures’ of this guy, and he was quite the showman.
I asked Evelyn about this Anton LaVey character, and she laughed so hard that pea soup shot out of her nose. (she was in the middle of lunch). So if it rains green soup in your part of the world, you know why.
@oratio ah Dionysus, now there is a god I could get behind. The God of Wine and Debauchery.
Baal Bull = Bible? or is that just a coincidence in sound alike terms?
By tradition – since the protestant reformation – we don’t celibrate Halloween in Sweden, as it is rather a catholic holiday. We do however light candles for the dead. But people have more and more Halloween parties in Sweden, so it’s growing.
@Psychedelic_Zebra Yes. =) You guess you understand why the God of Orgies was a threat to the church.
Seriously? Some people jsut need to learn when to shutup.
@oratio Oops! I’m normally on Firefox, but I’m not on my computer at the moment.
Why is there always that one person or group that has to dissect holidays and their meanings. Can’t they just let things be?
Halloween (Samhain) is a holiday to some of us, and a religious one at that. It’s not just a “primitive” way of viewing the world, it’s also a day to remember the ancestors, celebrate the harvest, and know that we, too, will one day pass on, just like all the animals and plants that give us life. Earth must be fed.
If Christians think that’s demonic (because they need a fall guy for their all-good God) and refuse to celebrate it, that’s just fine with me. Let us Pagans have it back – you already took so much else from us. Leave us our holiest night of the year.
I always found it kind of odd that Christians adopted pagan rituals, and I was under the perception that Halloween fell into this category. I don’t know much on the subject I admit, but I also understand that the Christmas tree was a Pagan symbol adopted by the Christians. I have had people tell me I should have no problem putting a tree in my house, because it is not Christian (I’m Jewish). That makes no sense to me, because; one, at this point it is a Christian Symbol and two, I don’t consider myself to be Pagan. I wonder if the author is ok with a Christmas tree in her house and near nativity scenes?
Meanwhile, for me Halloween is completely secular in my mind, I would not put a Christmas tree in my house (unless I had a spouse or roomate who Christian), but I will decorate eggs on easter, and eat candy and cookies on all of those days. None of it makes much sense, I just kind of do what my mother did.
@laureth I totally respect that it is a holy day for you, I don’t want my answer, saying I treat it as a secular day for myself, to come across as a lack of acknowledgement that it is an important religious day for others.
I turned on the TV the other morning and it so happened to be on the 700 club. The host was saying “and that’s what happens on Halloween when you dress up like witches and vampires and go out and celebrate, your are celebrating evil, worshipping the devil (etc… etc…)”. It was pretty intense. Now I am not one of the people that dogs others religions. But wow I ended up giggling a bit. It’s a child’s holiday.
Wow, I’d hate to be the kid that knocks on her door for candy…
I think that this is why Jehovah Witnesses don’t celebrate Halloween, and they don’t celebrate Christmas I think because we are not really sure what day Jesus was born? I respect the consistency of trying to stay true to the religion and not go along with rituals from other religions, even if I think most of what they believe is whacked.
@RedPowerLady you must have been writing while I was writing and giving you lurve on another question :) Jinx.
@JLeslie does that mean I owe you a pepsi?
I think this lady´s skewed view on life in generall is reflected in her fanaticism and over reaction to a harmless excuse to dress up and gte free candy. She reminds me of this lady. Never Forget.
I have a problem with this: “For example, most of the candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches.” Not only do I not believe that witches are in all the candy manufacturing plants dedicating candy, but given the shelf life of most candy, it seems to me it would be impossible to know when a given lot would be put out on the store shelves. So it would either be pretty hit-or-miss, or those witches are busily dedicating all the candy, all the time. Maybe Ms. Daniels hasn’t thought of that yet.
@Dr_C , lol!
@ccrow i can tell you for a fact that there is no such thing going on in candy manufacturing (at least out here). On mondays i work a couple of hours as plant doctor for the factory that produces much of the candy for See´s candy, Yummy Earth organic candy and many others. Not only are the owners catholic but so are 99.99% of the employees (it being in mexico they have no qualms about asking for religious background in an employment form) and to date i have yet to se anyone do anything other than work extremely hard to get a lot of product out in a very short time and complain about the extreme heat and excesively sweet smell. These people don´t have time to do anything but work their butts off and certainly don´t take the time to “pray” or do anything else over the candy.
i have a problem with” demonic harvest.” how can the growing of food be demonic? i guess i was a witch all summer. i did take ungodly pride in my tomatoes.
If you’re religious, then you may feel that way. I had a religious person tell me on another site that because I was Christian, I should never celebrate Halloween. Because apparently walking around getting candy is akin to worshiping demons. Okay. Whatever.
Wow… You know those people you hope never reproduce and pass on their own stupidity? Yeah, she’s one.
@RedPowerLady It is not “a child’s holiday.” It has real, historical, religious origins. The fact that it has been commercialized is one thing, but to dismiss it completely as nothing more than a thing for kids is ignorant. @laureth posted a great answer that explains what this day means to some people who see it the original, religious manner.
@avvooooooo Knock it off and leave me alone. I know about the Pagan origins and that is all fantastic and well. However it is most widely celebrated as a child’s holiday. I am by no mean ignoring the Pagan roots but I have a right to state the thoughts that immediately came to my mind when I heard a fanatic preaching against how children shouldn’t be going out and getting candy. It is okay to acknowledge both points of view. You don’t have to attack me everytime I say something that is showing a different opinion on the topic.
@RedPowerLady “It’s a child’s holiday.” What about that doesn’t say “this is nothing more than something for kids.”? Especially coming just after @laureth‘s post, it was ignorant. I would have said the same to anyone who posted that particular sentiment, especially at that particular place in the thread. If you don’t want me commenting on things you say that are wrong, try to be right. Again, I would have posted the same to anyone posting the thing you chose to.
Variations:
“Its become a child’s holiday.
“Its celebrated as a child’s holiday with nothing sinister about it.”
“It is most widely celebrated as a child’s holiday.”
@avvooooooo We are not discussing the idea that it is either something for kids vs. a pagan holiday with more origins. We are discussing what ideas people have of the holiday. IE the question is Not everyone takes a benign view of Halloween. What do you think? I think that it is most widely celebrated by and for children, and those who do not take a benign view on the holiday should let kids have their fun. This is true AND it has Pagan origins. It does not have to be one or the other. You are not always right. Many things can be right at the same time.
Just because one person gives an awesome answer does not mean the rest of us have to cease answering the OP’s question.
[Mod Says] Let’s try to remain civil please. Halloween is supposed to be fun.
[mod says] Flame off folks. Back to the original topic, please.
Response moderated
@RedPowerLady As the article linked is about the woman whose whole premise is that because of the origin of the holiday and the idea that the way that it is now celebrated is because of that origin, the discussion is indeed about “the idea that it is either something for kids vs. a pagan holiday with more origins.” It is indeed a discussion of what people think about the holiday and why. I have made several valid points, whether you chose to acknowledge that or not. To quote you, “You are not always right.”
I never, at any point, stated that people should stop answering the question “just because one person gives an awesome answer.”
On the other hand, Christmas (1) has Pagan origins and (2) is nowadays mostly for Children to get goodies too, and I don’t see nearly as many people calling it demonic.
Let´s for one second pretend that Halloween really is a satanic holliday… whatever happened to freedom of religion? do satan worshipers not have a right to celebrate their hollidays? talk about trying to impose beliefs.
@ItalianPrincess1217 I love doing the research about the origins of holidays and celebrations and discovering how they have changed over time. The Fluther collective is one of my favorite sources, because jellies provide links and opinions that I lurve.
great discussion! I soooo want to read the stuff the moderators remove.
I actually know quite a few familys that don’t celebrate. I’ve never really asked why they don’t…I know they’re Christians, I belied LDS. They celebrate the Fall with pumpkins like everyone else, but just no Halloween.
I don’t know. I understand it has meaning to some, and I’ve attended Pagan gatherings..I don’t know much about it, but I don’t view it as Satan worshipping in any way. To me, it’s just a fun holiday…people celebrate it in all different ways. To attack people for how they celebrate (and notice, none of the Pagans care that people view it as a fun event, it’s the anti-satanism freaks who look crazy) is just not right.
Pagans are not satan worshippers. they were having festivals long before Satan was. he [it] is a christian invention. but i agree with you otherwise.
What are “Pagans”? Pantheists? Animists? Do they paint themselves blue? No, that was Druids.
@faye We’re you talking to me? I didn’t say they are satan worshippers.
@pdworkin One of my favorite religious comebacks used to be: I don’t care if you paint yourself blue on weekends and worship trees, just don’t try to convert me.
casheroo, i was commenting on your comment “i don’t view it as satan worshipping” .i like talking!
omg, mortified at my awful spelling/grammar. I need to go to bed.
What pagan religion do you refer to in this context? Satanism?
Satanism isn’t a Pagan religion. It is a Christian heresy.
Pagans come from a lot of traditions. There are Wiccans, Druids, Asatruers, Yorubans, Native Americans, Roman and Greek reconstructionists, lots and lots. In this context, though, the Celtic and Germanic reconstructionists and Wiccans celebrate a holiday like Samhain or Winterfinding in mid-to-end October which is about life/death, autumn, harvest, and similar themes. There may be others I don’t know about, too.
I’m a day late and a dollar short. Think I’ll move along and stay out of this bunfight.
i don’t think pagans were/ are satanists. satan belongs to christians. i believe they had something right in their “oneness” with earth and nature. but i don’t know enough.
@faye What happened was that the Christians started calling everything that wasn’t them “bad.” There are things like the “horned god,” in various incarnations, that they turned into Satan. There are also things like the mother figure that they adopted into Mary, the holidays which they choose to celebrate when other people were celebrating so it wasn’t such a big change… Lots of things. A whole lot of basic and early Christianity is adopted from pagan religions, but many modern Christians wouldn’t admit it under the pain of death.
Its just like anything else… “Pepsi sucks, drink Coke!” “Rice a Roni is way better than those other rice things!” “Paganism is bad, be a Christian!” :P
so the early christians were hypocrites? sounds like a good question to get a little discussion going!
@faye Absolutely. But then, all religions are more or less hypocritical. The early Christians were trying to create something out of nothing (which is very, very difficult), so instead they adopted bits and pieces from other places and changed them for their own needs.
@avvooooooo The early Christians were trying to create something out of nothing (which is very, very difficult)
Lol, that’s one of the arguments ID has against evolution and cosmology. Thought it was ironic you would write that.
@oratio They were trying to create a new religion out of nothing, picking and choosing what to include. What I said has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution and cosmology.
@avvooooooo I know. But still the same wording they use.
@avvooooooo Well, I am sorry if you don’t see the irony of that two opposite views of an issue uses the same wording.
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