Why do Mac users talk about Apple like it's a religion?

Because Steve Jobs is a hypnotist

Two words: Vista! Something as awful as that is what turned me! Before that, I haven’t a clue…

same paradox with an atheist.

Well, they are a minority group.

Microsoft makes it easy to regard them as some of the things we in the software development biz used to call them (and we developed PC apps!): the Dark Side, the Borg Collective. They buy companies with superior products, rape their technology, and then kill their products. Bill Gates completely missed the boat on the Internet. Their products are clunky in design; they are developer-centric not user-oriented; and their help systems and documentation suck.

Mind you, I am no Mac zealot. I use PCs.

@willbrawn Sure Vista is bad but would that turn you away from a Zune or XBox. I must admit Vista isn’t the best think Microsoft made but still I don’t think people should be all angry and hate everything Microsoft makes.

@Marina You are right. They do make some big mistakes. But still. Apple fans will search the internet about Apple 24/7. You can love a Snickers bar but nobody searches their site all day and watches their presentations about their new chocolate bar. Apple has some kind of hold on their users no other company is capable of. They have made people act as if Microsoft products were infected with diseases and would never touch them. @MrBlogger it seems as if they are hypnotists.

I think it is the same reason Notre Dame fans are crazy and Patriot fans are nuts. Fanatics back what they like to extreme. And we only hear the extreme ones shouting out.

You mean Apple isn’t a religion?

Search this site (or better use Google to search it) for the questions about products and companies people “love”. Apple should just get in line.

@fireside That commercial was pretty remarkable. It was one of the most effective advertisements in history and was one of the most expensive. It costed more than a movie.

Image is everything.
They had to differentiate themselves and have managed to maintain that same image ever since. Look at how fuddy-duddy Microsoft still looks after hiring a comedian to spice up their image.

As opposed to something like this

One of my favorites

@fireside I also find it funny how Microsoft hasn’t made a very big impact with their expensive adversing campaigns. They might have even managed to make it worse. Thier Sienfeld ads backfired. I’m a Pc ads made on Macs. The Pc guy in the ads uses an iPhone? Mojave Experiment had pretty bad timing and would have been better if it aired after The I’m a Pc campaign.

Apple has something others do not. They are passionate about what they do and it really shows. They care about things other companies think don’t matter. They don’t do things for an extra buck and it really shows.

Maybe Microsoft still has a lot of bad karma to overcome…

@pixel – i agree both of those were good ideas that just didn’t pan out.

@Marina, As I understand it, Windows is only developer centric. OS X is friendly to both camps (user/dev). This is why I love Apple’s platform so much. Perhaps it is because they build competent products that I don’t have to rip my hair out over to support for both myself and everyone around me.

If I seem over-zealous, then perhaps you should adjust your definition of “over.” My appreciation for what apple does is totally justified in that the mainstream alternative is sloppy, buggy, fugly, horribly bloated, and fundamentally flawed from both security and organization viewpoints.

Another thing highly influential is looks. It’s pleasing to the eye. It gives you a sense of how it will work. I agree that looks do matter since almost everyone judge things by how they look.

I think a great deal of it comes from not understanding that there are different uses for each OS and not every OS is built for everyone. MS puts out a great product for what it is. Really and truly, they do. Home users are able to do what they need and so are businesses. They just put out Quickbooks for OS X. That meant for years designers had to have a pc, just to run that software. And Linux doesn’t have enough hardware developers behind them to really make that dent that they need (unfortunately) in the home market, but it’s so deeply penetrated into the corporate environment with servers and the such that it has a large following there. Each OS has it’s own use. No one is good for everything.

I actually just bought a Mac, and not because I’m going to an art college. While that helps, I actually bought it because it lets me do all the nerdy shit I do in linux while having the product support of windows. You get the best of both worlds with it.

In all fairness, there are a great deal of MS fanboys that will tear anyone that has anything bad to say about MS a new one. You’ll see it a LOT on /. although it has become better as of late.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s like religion – 1. because I’m not religious (about computers or anything else) – but I have yet to come across a compelling argument to use or get a PC.

But still. Apple fans will search the internet about Apple 24/7. You can love a Snickers bar but nobody searches their site all day and watches their presentations about their new chocolate bar. Apple has some kind of hold on their users no other company is capable of.

@PIXEL Can’t argue with that. I wouldn’t be too surprised thought. Apple does have talent.

They even have a prophet

all that said, i’m a pc

This might be a tad off topic but I thought it would be funny

@pixel: I’m sure there are ‘fanatics’ out there (a friend of mine is featured in the book “The Cult of Mac” with her tattoo), but I wouldn’t go as far as to apply that to all mac users. I don’t search the internet for Apple 24/7, I just enjoy every Apple product I own and can’t see that there is a preferable alternative brand.

Because Windows owns the vast majority of the technology monopoly, I think you will find that mac will have a larger percent of “dedicated fans”, if you will. If someone that didn’t know anything about either operating system decided to buy a computer, it would be more likely for them to buy a Windows because of it’s higher popularity and market hold.

That being said, there are lots of Windows fanatics out there as well. Several of them are friends of mine. All they talk about is waiting to upgrade their PC, latest game they’ve been playing on XBox, or how crap they think macs are. It takes two to argue, otherwise there wouldn’t be arguments between my friends about which is better, mac or windows.

I have always used both macs and PCs, and I don’t get the whole “fanboyism” (watch me invent words) that happens on both sides. I have a macbook which I use all the time at school, and I have a PC at home which I use for gaming and my computer graphics work.
Our school is mainly PC-based, which is fantastic for a lot of my computer-based subjects. There’s also a mac-based recording studio, which is fantastic as well.

Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. People often forget this.

My work is cross-platform and it helps that I see the good points in all these operating systems. Been trying out Ubuntu lately it has its good points and bad so much the same with OSX and XP and Vista.

You see the 2 biggest complaints with Macs are that they are too expensive, and don’t play games. Now let’s face it. Most computer nerds don’t play games. Now if you look around for a real good gaming computer it most of the time ends up costing more than a Mac. Sure maybe the hardware is a little better but Windows seems to needs a really good computer to run smoothly were the Mac Operating System doesn’t and runs smoothly even on old machines. I don’t care much for games. I game from time to time and when I do, I use an XBox. Who games on a computer? No really? It seems as though it’s the Pc users only excuse.

@PIXEL, you see there are different kinds of computer nerds. Some people like playing games on a PC much more than on a Console. Games like Call of Duty 4, Counter Strike Source, and Tom Clancy games. There are some games that people like that are only available on a PC, and sometimes the PC version of a game is better. Like all of Valve’s games. Also the ones who complain about not being able to play games don’t complain about price, because they know how pricey a decent gaming PC is.

Yes there are different kind of computer nerds but because a Mac isn’t a toy is this any reason to say it sucks like most do? If I was a hardcore gamer I would get the best of both world. Because Macs have the wonderful invention BootCamp I could run Vista, Xp, Linux, and Mac OS X. I really don’t understand the compatibility problem. I have never run into a compatibility problem. Except for maybe with Google Chrome but the Mac version will be out soon. The problem that started this whole fight are the ads. The ads got the Pc users hating on Macs. Macs are wonderful machines.

You’re right pixel, those ads and the personality of Apple really did cause all of this. I’m starting to think maybe if their strategy wasn’t make the enemy look bad and instead point out the goods with Macs this fight might have never happened.

I think the compatibility problem is more related to support than to the actual machines themselves. The people I know who don’t like Macs, seem to only be saying that because they don’t have any experience working with Macs and so to get in and figure out networking or file management requires more time than they want to put into it.

The people I know who like Macs, seem to say the graphic are better, but any PC user knows that all you have to do is upgrade for better graphics.

Personally, I don’t like the business applications that I was using on the Mac because the PCs seem to be able to better process and store data.

@fireside

Yes the compatibility problem really isn’t Apples fault. Pc just has more market share.

Now when Mac usres say graphics i’m pretty sure they mean the graphics are much more pleasing to the eye. The reflective 3d dock. The icons grow when rolled over. The gorgeous icons. I think thats what most mean when they say the graphics are much better.

Ahh, iWork. I don’t use Office that much so I don’t know what’s better but iWork is pretty great. There’s one thing i’m sure of though and it’s that Keynote is miles ahead of PowerPoint. The animation, transitions, instant alpha, gorgeous layouts, pretty 3d diagrams are all amazing.

Yeah, Keynote is pretty great.

@PIXEL The thing about gaming on Boot Camp is that a basic non-modified Mac doesn’t have specs that most gamers like for PC gaming. Just because you don’t think gaming on a computer isn’t fun, doesn’t mean other people don’t. It is a legitimate reason, and not an excuse. I agree that it is no reason to say Macs suck just people they aren’t compatible with most games, but some people use PCs mainly for gaming, so they would have no desire to get a Mac. Some people just need to understand people have different tastes and needs for their computers. I think the reason PC Gamers say Macs suck isn’t because they don’t play games, but because of the one size fits all thing they have going on. PC Gamers like to customize their computer with all sorts of stuff for gaming, which isn’t as easy to do on a Mac.

I agree that customization on a Pc is much easier but gaming on a Mac with Vista is pretty smooth. Gaming on a Mac is also pretty fun. Update: It seems as thought the Mac doesn’t really need good specs to run smoothly like Pcs do. I’m just saying why not get a 2 in one device if you have the money? I didn’t really mean gaming on a computer was silly I meant that people who can’t play their games on another sort of computer call it shit and that is what is silly. Why not get the best of both worlds? You switch to Vista to play let’s say Call of Duty then when your tiered switch to Leopard to do whatever else you need to do. You have everything in a pretty little box.

You can’t replace the video card, which is important to a lot of gamers. I agree that Macs run a lot smoother, but that doesn’t lower the standards of a gamer and his specs. Also the last time I checked OSX wasn’t compatible with anything over ATI X1600.

Sorry I don’t know much about that sort of hardware. Obviously I’m not a very big gamer. Now I might be wrong about this and people might have hacked their Mac Pros and Macbook Pros but If you google it there are lots of people who have ATI X1600 on their Macs.

I know I just said that, the highest video card OSX can use is ATI X1600, a lot of gamers use higher video cards like 1800s. Macs won’t even run with anything lower than ATI X1600 either. It’s the customization that gamers want, not the games. Usually.

If you give OS X a try for say a week, get used to the OS X way of doing things, you’ll soon see everything becomes obvious, easier and simpler to do.

So, it is hypnosis!

@chromaBYTE: yep. I see the same effect with Linux (on the desktop, not so much on servers), and saw it years ago with Amiga, OS/2, etc: since a person has to be more of an “enthusiast” to bother running an alternative or less-mainstream OS, alternative-OS users tend to self-select to include more zealots. (Or at least people with strong opinions about software.) It makes perfect sense.

Add in the fact that many of those OSes – including OS X – have in fact been considerably better than Windows, plus the fact that MS continues to rule the roost anyway, and you have a recipe for some pretty shrill fanboy-ism. :)

Of course, many people do seem to base some of their sense of identity or self-worth on which software they run. Which is honestly kind of silly – and I say that as a professional developer and Mac convert. So in spite of understanding how/why people become invested in defending their software of choice, I’m still occasionally surprised at the level of emotion that’s invested..

I think the fanaticism of Apple fans is what put me off Apple so much in the first place. You can’t say anything against a new Apple product or you get attacked like you are some kind of heretic. Then a year later Apple bring out a new edition and they say all the bad stuff about the last model and how much better the new one is and only then is it ok to say the bad points of the old model. It’s like brain washing. I own some Apple products but I am not blind to the flaws and don’t try to defend Apple like a family member.

@ kullervo – Welcome to fluther first of all. Second. Very true. Well put!

Ha @queenzboulevard thats odd. I didn’t know Vista was two words!?!

“Two words: Vista! Something as awful as that is what turned me! Before that, I haven’t a clue…”

Because it is. (Think Different)

lol – and like all religions, it is built upon the foundations of another.

Think – IBM
Think Different – Apple

If MacOS is so superior, then why won’t Apple let me install it on a PC? I think that if Apple had to support as many different hardware configurations as Microsoft does, then you would see some very similar problems as you do with Windows.

@ winblowzxp – you can install MacOS on a PC for built for half the price of a mac.

I always felt that windows was stupid for worrying about supporting so many hardware configurations.

If you’re a recreational or graphics user, Macs kick butt because they are pretty much idiot proof. If you’re running business apps, then you have to have Windows. I have a Mac at home, and use a PC at work. I would hate it if the situation were reversed.

I never have to defrag the Mac.

Everything is a religion.

@kullervo: you don’t like Apple products… because other people do?

Most people I know who say that “hate” Macs either (1) have never used one, or (2) are adverse to how popular they’re becoming.

I’ve been using macs since about 2003. From 1992 until then, I had only used PCs. After the adjustment period (approximately 2 days), I was able to do almost anything I wanted with the OS. It is a premium OS, and the cost reflects that. Hopefully the advent of Hackintoshes will let people who don’t like Apple’s sometimes-dodgy hardware experience OSX. It really is more secure and stable than Windows.

Also, Apple is the underdog. People like to fight for the underdog when they think she should be the winner.

@kullervo I don’t see why you should hate Apple and not the Mac Users instead. This “fanboyism” has nothing to do with the actual machine itself.

Mac users don’t point out the bad things about the previous model but point out how much they have dramastically improved.

You talk as if you’ve never used a Mac. Just keep in mind Macintosh computers have 92% satisfaction and that’s pretty much the same for every other Apple product. Now play with a Mac in an Apple Store and I’m sure it will be fun.

@bri It’s in the OS’s EULA that you are not to install it on anything other than a Mac.

@winblowzxp – true.

I meant to say it was possible. One “can” or is “capable” rather than “should”.

Sorry about that.

Apple hasn’t been “mainstream” before about two years ago. Before that time only certain types of creative workers would use Mac because of it’s superior graphics, sound and video editing performance.

Then came Leopard and “Hi I’m a Mac…....”.

The result was that most early converts are people that changed to Macs due to long histories of frustrating issues with Windows, where Vista was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

To me, after years of frustration on the job, a gazillion blue screens, millions of security pop-ups to click away and all the other joys of Windoop it felt like a huge weight was taken off me, and that’s how I started to somewhat zealously love my machines and iPhone and hate Windoop.

I guess the sudden absence of certain computing issues that plagued me for years kinda made my subconscious associate Windoop with the antichrist :) LOL

THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THY MAC
THOU SHALT NOT HAVE OTHER PLATFORMS BESIDE THY MAC

…lol

I’ll take true UNIX please…

It’s not a problem, bri. I know that it’s possible, but you have to hack the kernel to do so. I’ve done it before, and I’ll take my Linux/Unix over MacOS.

@ winblowzxp – Yeah, my best bud is not a mac fan. His is a BIG Linux/Unix fan. I am actually setting up a computer to install Linux/Unix by the end of the year. I am a procrastinator so it will take some time. hehe.

Despite the fact that MacOS X.x is based on UNIX, when you set up your first user, that user has root privileges.

I recently had a friend with a Mac get an interesting virus…what it did was while he was working, it unmounted his filesystem and did a 3-pass format (00, FF, 00) which not only made the system vomit when he tried to pull something off, but it made his data irrecoverable. That’s why I prefer UNIX over OSX.x

When a person becomes enlightened, it is natural to want to evangelize. Apple users generally don’t talk about how great their hardware is. We don’t talk GHz and chipsets. We talk about the experience. Apple “gets it.” They know how we work. They know how to design hardware and software interfaces that don’t get in our faces. Nothing stands between me and my data, and I am free to access it and manipulate it without restrictions, without worrying about incompatibilities or viruses. Apple’s design aesthetic is deceivingly simple on the outside, but masterfully conceived to allow the product to integrate seamlessly into our lives. We realize that Apple makes our lives richer, and it is natural for us to want to share that with others. The great irony is that so many users think of computing as work, separate from their own life, and that it therefor must involve suffering.

Great answer simpleD. I agree, who even makes their own computers these days? It’s not about hardware it’s about the experience when using the Mac interface.

I am a mactheist, in other words, it is against my religion to even discuss macs as computers at all. All Hail the mighty PC, death to Apple. yeah, this is as crazy as you’ll see me get on this site, well hopefully

buy a mac and find out

Because it is.

I haved used Macs but each time I had a bad experience. Some of it was just not knowing/understanding the interface (clearly not as intuitive as fanboyz make out), some was petty annoiances like no maximise or delete button, accessing network drives required go connect to ip addrrss nonsense etc. But my biggest problem was I got slowdowns, freezes, lockups or complete crashes requiring a power off. Now my iphone has the same issues. So far I’ve tried a g4, g5 and mac book pro, using the same web dev apps I use on PC. Took me 4 times longer on the macs. Willing to give it another try but hard to get objective feedback on why it supposed to be good – and dont say macs dont crash as they do for me

@kullervo right well first of all there is a maximize button, its the green one, but rather than making it full screen, the application resizes it self so it takes up the amount of space needed to see all of its contents, or as much as possible.

I dont know what you mean about the delete key, as there are two, but if your talking about on Macbooks, you hold down FN and then when you press backspace, it acts like a delete.

Now network drives, I take it you must of been opening Windows network drives on Tiger, as other macs show up on in the Network view or in Leopard both Windows and Macs show up in the sidebar.

Now the web development applications, I take it your probably using Dreamweaver, as i cant think of many others windows and OS X applications that do web dev. I would recommend giving Coda a try, its the Mac way of doing Web Development, its snazzy and much nicer than Dreamweaver. And i agree, anyone saying Macs dont crash are crazy. I admit its alot less than windows, but it does happen some times.

Hopefully your next Mac experience will be a little better :)

@Philo23 – When I say maximise I mean fill the window this is especially annoying when I am building background images for websites as the window only expands to fit the content but not the background image so I have to manually stretch it. There are other situations that It would be useful but it’s not a deal breaker

Thanks for the tip about delete I didn’t know about holding down the FN button. It was especially annoying when I was working in Vista via bootcamp and there was no delete key.

Networking – yes I was using Tiger to access a windows network. There are several servers so having to connect to the different ones to get to different network resources was annoying. Doubt the office will upgrade to leopard anytime soon but I have played with leopard on a mac book pro.

I use Aptana/Eclipse for web dev but have used Dreamweaver before. I heard about coda and it sounds good. However, when I am on Mac it’s mainly to use Flash, Photoshop and maybe illustrator.

I think if I was a first time computer user the Mac would have a lot more appeal. Because I am used to things working a certain way it has been incredibly frustrating so far. Plus I was expecting an intuitive crash, lock up free experience but found in most cases it was sluggish and crashed more often than my Windows PC – however, I wasn’t using new systems they were being used by others for some time so may have gotten sluggish from what they had done to it but I was told by Mac users that getting slow over time was a Windows thing.

Willing to try anything that improves my computer experience but with the issues I’ve had and lack of games and a decent battery/performance laptop on offer I’ll stick to PC for now. Whether that PC will be Windows 7 or Ubuntu I’m not sure on yet. But getting way off topic.

Because we are Legion.

@Ulmaxes You do know that “We are Legion” is said by a group of demons that had possesed a man that Jesus free?

Does that mean the Apple followers are demonic? Does that make Steve Jobs the Devil?
I always had my suspicions… :)

indeed I do, kullervo. He sent them off into a herd (proper term?) of pigs that then drowned themselves in the sea of galilee.

‘twas but a joke.

hehe. so don’t tell anyone. :P

maybe because IE is the devil

@patg7590, little girls are the debble

IE 1–8 is more like satan himself…

(CSS = Jesus Christ)

Oh, and welcome!!

@blastfamy haha touche`

Css must equal Jesus because I love it but don’t understand how it works very well.

@willbrawn
You see that connection too? Odd isn’t it…Pride and arrogance I think..setting themselves apart as special

@PIXEL

Meh… Bootcamp is such a waste of disk space. At least when I run something in Fusion, I still have access to the entirety of my hard drive (true, it’s one-way unless I SMB the Fusion’ed OS back out to my OSX).

@getoffmylawn you can access your OS X (HFS+ formatted) disks in windows and the other way around wether you use fusion or not.

In windows you can get several programs to read and write to OS X disks, and in a virtual machine you can turn sharing on (not the SMB style in system prefs) to access your macs hard drive directly

Things that are truly worthy need no praising (take the most awesome automobile that is the Honda, for example).

I’m a linux user. I like some Apple products (I use a iPhone, I use iTunes, etc). I do not see why people have to be so… fanatical about them. Just as I do not see why Microsoft fanboys have to be fanatical about them.

Esp since the iPhone seems to have a major freezing issue <.<

Oh and the custom iphone ring tone thing doesn’t work in iTunes and the iPhone doesn’t support multitasking, where Android and Windows Mobile do.

um, cuz iphone is the jesus phone? ; )

It is because Mac people, not all just the dorks, feel this is their last stand on technology. Masturbating to Steve Jobs like a Pamela Anderson poster. Eventually they get past puberty and reality sets in. Finally (hopefully) growing up, realizing it really does not matter.
Live long and prosper.

Because Jesus uses a mac to maintain his list of who’s been naughty and nice.

are you suggesting jesus and apple are connected…that’s confusing…i can only cope with one god…

Isn’t that just part of being an apple owner/star trek-starwars-fan/comic collector/graphic artist/japanese animation/sci-fi novel/physics major kind of person?

:-)

Because functionality and proper ergonomics is technology of a greater kind.

Using devices that properly mesh with the human form is innovation of a higher order.

Either one gets it or one doesn’t.

If you don’t shut up and go back to your data entry cubicle.

I have mild anxiety disorder and ADHD. Any device that is as simplified in it’s user interface makes a big difference to me.

If you think of technology as a necessary evil, then maximized ergonomics makes devices more tolerable.

Its because they belong to a lesser evil and they are proud to be apart of the subculture of mac users

truth is… they fail..

both windows and mac users owe more to unix and linux than anything.

Every PC i’ve owned has had menstrual cycles and required hysterectomies

I long for the days of macdom. All was milk and honey, but alas I was cast out for my sins.

I consorted with evil software not written in bug free sacred format.

I have given up my spiritual soul for the souless inadequately debugged software of the world, and now I toil under the yoke of the king of air. The morning star. His promises decieve while his demons toil to make cheap hardware in third world countries.

dudes: in group out group? – never heard of it before?

http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Theory%20clusters/Interpersonal%20Communication%20and%20Relations/Social_Identity_Theory.doc/

Duh

so easy even a child prodigee could figure it out.

And by the way. Micro$oft $ucks

I believe it stems from peoples’ experiences; as I have been working with Microsoft products since the late 80’s. I was a Beta-Tester for a long while and the products that were created/produced were great, but not for the every day user. You had to be a techie to trouble shoot the challenges. Microsoft’s business model has and will probably always remain the same, in that a half-ass product is produced and fallout is taken care of months later. No product is without issue, and Microsoft just happens to make money on a fix as we go mentality.

After a while, one has to make a decision. I made mine in 2006. I only use MS Products when I am forced to period. As a technologist practitioner and higher education scholar it is imperative to reach one and teach one.

Excellence is compelling.

I used PCs for 19 years. When my last one crashed a couple of years ago, I got a Mac. It is so much easier to use than a PC (thank God I never made it to Vista) that I would never go back, even if they were selling for a dollar.

Apple does produce truly superior products and Microsoft does produce truly crappy products.

@PIXEL Just curious, what is that Mac users do that make it sound like they are talking about a religion?

@plethora Paint Apple’s weaknesses as strengths and gloss over flaws.

I like apple Ipods and all, but I think i know the answer. I do agree Microsoft does have some crappy software, but Apple, I guess doesn’t have no crappy software.

@aidoom7 Given the number of app crashes I had on my iPod with iOS4 chronic issues with iTunes, an inability to run Safari without crashing, Quicktime, and others, I can only assume that you never actually used any Apple products.
That said, whoever assumes that PCs suck just because Windows has issues doesn’t know much about computers. Most of the PC bashing I’ve heard is from people who value ease of use over speed, power, flexibility, or value, while the remainder is from people who had bad luck with Windows and never installed Linux. Ironically, OS X and Linux are a lot alike under the hood yet the lack of an Apple logo makes the few fanbois who even know what Linux is look down upon it with derision despite being fundamentally the same.

Itunes works fine on my Shuffle 4G. Are you talking about MP3/Itouch? Thats a different story.

@aidoom7 It was an iPod Touch, and if it’s a different story from something that works fine then logic dictates that it doesn’t work very well. I can back up that logic with experience; mine did not work very well.

If your Ipod touch is having problems, go to freebiejeebies.com and you can get a FREE Ipod Touch.

Jerv, I do have a Ipod Shuffle 4G! Use sftwre. version 10.1 and it would (maybe) work better. I don’t have that much expierence with MP3/Touch,but the overall solution would be going to www.apple.com.

@aidoom7 Better solution; I now use my Droid X as my music player when I forget my old “Nano-killer”, a Sansa e280. I can sync them with ease using all sorts of software, even Linux (a feat that iPods can’t manage) and the hardware is a bit hardier too; my Sansa is going strong after six years despite being on it’s original, user-replaceable battery.

I have to say that of all of the computers and other electronics I’ve used in the last 30 years, Apple has generally been the most crash-prone, the most difficult to work with (it lacks much of the software I need for advanced stuff, and the basic stuff is has is often too basic) , and ever since 1984 (by design, except for a few models in the mid-‘90s) nearly impossible to work on. Apple’s solutions are often, “Take it to the Genius Bar and give us lots of money!” since they don’t want anybody to know how they work, to the point where once someone does figure out how to do something, they change the software or alter the case screws so as to keep absolute Orwellian control.

BTW, that iPod Touch wound up getting shipped to my cousin, though I was sorely tempted to take it to work and shove it into one of the machines I work with . If an OKK with a 42” table can cut through Inconel (an austenitic superalloy used in jet engines and nuclear reactors, among other places) with relative ease, I think it could do a good job of venting my frustrations on a recalcitrant iPod. A garbage disposal can’t compare to the might of a 2½” facing mill or a Super Bee with fresh carbide inserts.

So tell me, which free office suite do you recommend for iOS 4? How about good, free, old-school RPGs in the same vein as Zangband? A good PDF reader that I can sync without third-party software? (The ones I found for the iPod either sucked or could not sync via iTunes; they often required sending my PDF from my PC to a remote site and then sending it to the iPod via wifi, and I do not want third-party intervention, while the one I setteld on required a separate program solely for syncing PDFs. And if I wanted to access the same PDF with two different readers, I needed two copies of that PDF due to the file structure (or lack thereof) in iOS4.)

I don’t care about being cool. I don’t care to show people how much extra money I have or how much my parents spoil me. I like stuff that works, that is not overpriced, that works, that can be fixed when it does break (including a worn-out battery), that works, that can do what I want/need it to do, and that works. I gave Apple another chance because I want to like them, I really do, but they disappointed me again. We’ll check back in 2015 and see if they finally got it together.

I wouldn’t download a PDF browser because that stands for Pretty Dangerous File.

Only if you are the type of person who buys a “Rolex” from some guy standing on the street. Personally, I get mine from reputable sources, and I also know how to keep my machine safe. But if you prefer carrying an entire bookshelf with you or aren’t into reading period, that’s fine. As a gamer, I often need to have access to a pile of books that weighs about 20–30 pounds in “dead tree” format, and often not at my home. A safe document opened on a secure machine beats risking shoulder injury.

I do not buy Rolex anyway.

@aidoom7 I think we are having an utter failure to communicate. You seem to have missed my point entirely and/or taken me literally quite often, so I am just going to agree to disagree, continue to shun Apple as the inferior product I believe they are, and move on. The alternative is for me to get frustrated, and you seem too nice to deserve the way I treat people who annoy me, especially since it doesn’t seem like you are doing it on purpose.

Ok then you can ignore the heck out of me and Apple is awesome, not inferior. O and thx for forgiving me.

I prefer a peaceful solution.

I will say that there are few people I’ve seen that are neutral on this; they either worship Apple or loathe them. I’ve been disappointed by them too often to love them like I did twenty years ago. To each their own :/

I think Apple is kinda good, but then, I do own a PC. Oh well….

For a lot of folks, their needs are mainstream and Apple provide a pretty reliable platform to do generic, even if those generic expectations that are demanding on a system. The same folks have a right to think it’s very cool that what they do “just works”. When it doesn’t work a Mac is as scary as any other scenario where a sophisticated power tool quits in mid-use. When it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work.
Blame the marketers who claim superior experience for apple products as if “just works” doesn’t happen on other platforms too when the demands are mainstream.

@dabbler Well, most of the time I have broken a system, it was doing things no ordinary person does on a daily basis. For the sort of things that most people do, I can’t think of a modern OS that won’t get the job done in an intuitive fashion unless you get somebody who is freaked out because the screen looks different. Microsoft, Canonical (the Ubuntu people), the developers for KDE and GNOME (the most popular desktop managers for Linux) and many other people aside from Apple have made computers “just work” as well as any Mac.

So I agree when you say, “Blame the marketers…”.

@jerv That’s quite correct as you note that any modern OS will do generic activities pretty well. But there is a big variety of hardware out there and it’s hard to tell the unsophisticated friend to just to to Dell or HP or.. and pick out something because there are some real turkey configurations out there. But they’ll usually get something pretty good (if a bit overpriced) at Apple.

I think I’ve been doing this too long; I manage to avoid crappy configs intuitively and sometimes forget that not only so some people have to think about it, some lack the knowledge that I had decades ago.

BTW, I am glad to see that now the entire iMac lineup has desktop-grade graphics chips instead of some of them using inferior laptop chipsets.

No IMAC = PC viruses !! Malware, adware, etc.

@Aster I never had that issue, especially not under Linux, which is as safe as OS X because they are both based on UNIX. As for adware, most free apps for the iPhone/iPod have ads, as do many webpages.
Note that many hackers find OS X to be no harder (and sometimes actually easier) to hack into. But with Windows having most of the desktop market and most of whatever portion of the server market that isn’t taken by Linux, there really isn’t much point to doing so, which is why it is rarely done.
Also, no iMac = superior graphics, especially on 3D stuff. Take a look at the video card options a PC has, and remember that for what an iMac costs, I can get a PC with a high-end card and a 32” screen.

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