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Yellowdog's avatar

What about when the girl turns out to be more willing and ready than me?

Asked by Yellowdog (11167points) August 4th, 2015

A lot of guys would love to be in my position. The woman whom I thought of as shy and timid and even very attractive turns out to be ready for a sexual relationship. I am an ordained minister—though I am currently living on disability (previously working on a college campus in the bookstore before getting shot—waiting for a Financial Aid Counselor position to become vacant—but that’s another story) , I will probably be taking on a church soon as pastor—though probably not for another four to eleven months.

I knew her as little more than an acquaintance or casual friend some fifteen years ago—at which time, she refused to date me or even go out with me on what looked like a date.

Gradually we went out as friends, but eventually drifted apart. Four months ago, we started talking on the phone again (she called me)— I had spent a few years as a disabled person (gunshot in robbery) and recently (May) gotten on Social Security Disability—but have been doing pulpit supply ministry on weekends and will probably eventually take on a church full time (I have served as a pastor in the past—I am ordained and have a Master’s degree). It will probably be a year before I am financially solvent without needing disability (which I have only been receiving since May — I’ve been unable to work or have use of my right arm for three years—though I am able to work now ).

In my new-found relationship, this woman and I talk a lot—often all night on the telephone, and up until a few days ago she was very reserved and would not even hold hands. She agreed to let me kiss her, but the kissing became very passionate and she seemed unable to stop—(remember, I warned that many guys would enjoy this predicament!) — This is very passionate kissing and I’ve been the one who has had to break it off every time. She feels rejected and hurt and sometimes even angry when I do this.

I see a wild side in her I do not otherwise see when she gets passionate. We would like to have a sexual relationship but as a Christian and a pastor this is out of the question outside of marriage and she seems to understand this—(she is a Christian also) unfortunately, marriage will not be possible for a year or so for financial reasons, and honestly, we haven’t known each other long enough (We know each other well enough, maybe, but not long enough). She also wants to sleep with my shirts because of the smell, and has made her feelings very clear—though through all of this, she cannot say that she loves me because she is unsure of her feelings (!)

We have no opportunities to be alone where there are no other people and we both desire this—and she is wanting to rent a motel room or go on a vacation together. As a Christian and a minister, I am extremely uncomfortable with this. I know I could abstain from actual sexual intercourse before marriage and this woman says she doesn’t feel the need to go that far. I’m not sure I believe her although she may believe she is right. Even if that were true, appearances, consequences, and (who knows?) even legal ramifications could result if accusations were made.

She maintains that no intercourse is necessary (just kissing, cuddling, experiencing new horizons) and that NO ONE WOULD KNOW if we spent the night together.

I am wanting answers from EVERYONE, but realize that for most people, sexual intercourse outside of marriage is perfectly normal and that I need to “grow up.” Its fine with me for you to express that opinion but among Christian culture, sex outside of marriage is regarded as a sin against God—and besides that, I cannot under any circumstances risk a pregnancy or an accusation of sex or impropriety. This is an attractive and somewhat needy woman and I respect her and do not want to hurt her in any way. Yes, I do love her and intend to marry her and will propose when I am certain that she is really in love with me (and when she is able to say that she is)

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66 Answers

talljasperman's avatar

Pray to God for help. Sounds as if you are uncomfortable maybe you should tell her.

cazzie's avatar

Nobody can tell you how to feel on this one. It is one of those personal things that has nothing to do with anyone other than you and your partner. She obviously has physical needs but she needs to understand how you feel about things. No double standards. If the ‘shoe’ were on the other foot, we would certainly be telling the guy to hold his horses and be patient.

A couple’s sex life can tell a lot about the couple themselves and their relationship. It is sort of a barometer really. For a sex life to be successful, there needs to be boundries and communication, lots of thoughtfulness and consideration. If she cares about you and your feelings, she’ll understand that you feel it is inappropriate. I worry that you have already identified her as ‘needy’. You need to make it clear that it isn’t that you aren’t attracted to her and be careful of her self.esteem. If she is needy already, it is sort of a red flag that she has self esteem issues.

Here is my suggestion. She needs to respect your position, but that doesn’t mean you have to just sit around frustrated. Suggest the two of you take up a hobby together and do classes. I’m not sure about your on-going injury problems, because my first thought was dance classes, but it could be painting, or pottery or creative writing, take night course learning a foreign language, perhaps. Just something that you can both do together where you can spend time really getting to know each other and will have something to talk about with each other.

Good luck. I hope she can reciprocate soon with the love.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Communication is always the key. Have honest discussions and see where they go. I see some of the same red flags as cazzie. You might have to part ways for a while if you both aren’t ready to commit to marriage. I have no problem with sex outside of marriage, but I understand your beliefs.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I agree with @Adirondackwannabe. If you feel that going into a sexual relationship with her would be a sin, it’s time to part ways.

cazzie's avatar

@Dutchess_III Why would it be time to part ways? His girlfriend never gave him an ultimatum. This is something that can be worked out.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

@cazzie It’s possible but it won’t be easy. I don’t have any idea how mature either of the parties involved are.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, it sounds like they are tempted on a regular basis. If he feels that strongly that it is wrong, he needs remove the temptation from himself.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Kind of sounds like The Thorn Birds.

Dutchess_III's avatar

^^^^ Yes, it does!

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh oh! The Scarlett Letter.

fluthernutter's avatar

@Dutchess_III The Scarlett Letter?
I hope you weren’t an English teacher! :P

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, shi! I left the t up yonder^^

fluthernutter's avatar

Oops! I copied your misspelling. I was actually referring to how there isn’t much similarity between this situation and the book. :P

Yellowdog's avatar

There won’t be any “parting ways” and there is no need to mock, as this is a real-world situation, and is not a religion-related problem. I thought Dutchess_lll had an excellent answer/response.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Why do you say there isn’t much similarity, @fluthernutter. The whole book revolves around a woman who got pregnant by the preacher of their church in a tiny New England town in the 17 century (or so.) She carried the guilt and the shame by herself for…two years? She refused to name the father. Finally, in the end he did step up.
Because of religion, her life was hell.

Why do you say it isn’t a religion-related problem @Yellowdog, when you seem to be torn by your religious views on this? ”....but as a Christian and a pastor this is out of the question outside of marriage”

Yellowdog's avatar

Actually, I mean’t Cazzie, had an excellent response—but your contributions and views and the way you perceive this (Dutchess) is valuable to me as well. But there won’t be parting of ways. The girl and I have a very strong bond and need for each other, are both marriage minded, and btw are both of the same faith.

Yellowdog's avatar

I’m answering you, Dutchess— give me a moment—your question is certainly legit—

Dutchess_III's avatar

Crying because he likes @cazzie bettern me. Sniff. jk!

Yellowdog's avatar

I have no intention of getting anyone pregnant, Dutchess, I will go all the way up to intercourse but not that far. That is absolutely off limits to me, to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage. Even as a Christian I consider it in the grey or vague area so long as there is a committed, loving, respecting relationship. Howbeit, the problem with propriety, perception by others, and possible consequences weigh in mightily.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, I wish you luck. I don’t know of too many men who can actually back off at that point when the woman is willing. You’re gonna give in eventually, “just this one time.” Just make sure she is on BC, or you use a condom.

Yellowdog's avatar

“Crying because he likes @cazzie bettern me. Sniff. jk!”

You’re fine, too, Dutchess. Cazzie just was more helpful in that one. Your viewpoint is valuable to me, Dutchess, because you see this problem the way most people would and not something which Religion should nip in the bud. But Christians must practice what we preach. Would anyone respect anything less?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think taking right up to, but not including intercourse, kind of makes you just as guilty.

janbb's avatar

“It is better to marry than to burn.” I have sympathy for the position you are in. Maybe if you both become convinced that marriage is what you want, you can marry before you are financially independent and work things out that way. But just as a guy has to respect the woman’s feelings, she should respect yours especially if her religious beliefs are the same.

One question which you don’t have to answer publicly, is it possible to have a physical relationship in your belief system outside of marriage if you satisfy each other but don’t have intercourse? Heavy petting can be very nice.

Yellowdog's avatar

Dutchess—you are actually right. Most of us draw the line somewhere, and mine is intercourse.

Heavy petting, as janbb mentions, is permissible the way I see things. But as you mention, Dutchess— most people, Christian and otherwise, feel that leading right up to intercourse makes one just as guilty and is probably essentially the same thing. And perception by others is very important here, as well—if anyone else were to know about this.

I DO feel I could stop before intercourse but I am not sure if this woman in this case is that strong. She gets hurt or feels rejected when I stop things—and I am ALWAYS the one who stops it if only due to the amount of time involved. Eventually, enough becomes enough.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Are you more concerned with the perceptions other humans may have with you, or more concerned about doing the right thing in God’s eyes?

Yellowdog's avatar

I can stop what happens in a hotel room so I am not so much concerned what happens in God’s eyes. God knows or sees how far I go and where things stop. But what if the woman later gets angry (unforseen, but what if ??? ) and makes an accusation? What if someone indeed DOES find out that this woman and I spent time on a trip or in a rented motel room? Who would believe that we DIDN’T have intercourse? As long as I stop before that point, I do not think I’ve transgressed in God’s eyes. But this is why human perception is more important because humans don’t know what went on and how far it went.

janbb's avatar

You sound very clear about this and like this is the position you feel you must take for your beliefs and your career. It seems like maybe you and this woman should not do things in private as yet and if she is too unwilling to accept your limits, she may prove to not be the woman for you.

Yellowdog's avatar

Thanks, janbb— I agree with you— if she can come to admit or feel that she loves me (she can commit to a monogamous relationship, oddly enough, but is unsure if its love) – if she can for certain experience that its love, maybe a low-key official marriage might be the solution. If not,, as much as I love her, she might not be the one for me—especially if she does not or cannot love me emotionally, with the whole heart.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Quit thinking about what everyone else thinks. They’re not relevant. In fact, they are an excuse to NOT every move forward and do anything, because of what someone may or may not do in the small chance that you are spotted.

Another piece of advice. She is not a girl. You’re 51, and she’s at least 35, probably more. She is female, but under no definition is she a girl. Treat her like a woman.

And as a woman she has has her own sexual wants and needs. Meaning that her personality may like (and need) sexual release more than you do. Just as you want her to accept (if not embrace) your limits, you need to be respectful of her needs. Which doesn’t mean that your ( @yellowdog ) way is the only way.

Your situation is a whole lot like those of people who confronted this 30 years ago, in their twenties. What is right? Whose needs get fulfilled? What, if any role, does religion play? (My answer is that religion tends to diminish happiness, not enhance it, but that’s my view).

The bottom line here is that (as others have said) you need to make a hard decision. Are you willing to lose her (or lose your dignity by forcing her to follow your rules) in the name of what potential parishoners might say?

Does your religious vocation outweigh your love for her?

Only you can answer.

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cazzie's avatar

@Yellowdog sorry about some of the more irreverent answers. We’re a mixed bag of personalities here.

ucme's avatar

@Yellowdog Sorry about some of the more patronising/condescending answers, we’re a mixed bag of personalities here.

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Yellowdog's avatar

UCME—if you are trying to say that I am patronizing or condescending, just say it. I welcome all views and weigh the answers I am looking for based on what a variety of personality types and belief systems have to say. If you are just trying to shock me, I’ve seen and heard it all. I’ve seen most of it before I was eighteen

janbb's avatar

@Yellowdog You bring some fresh ideas and clear writing to a collective sorely in need of new blood. I hope you stay around.

Yellowdog's avatar

I will — I am liking already the variety of personalities. I welcome ALL views and am not easily offended. To most who are trolling this site, I am not quite real, and neither are they through the anonymity of the internet.

ucme's avatar

YELLOWDOG – Not trolling, not saying you are patronising, not trying to shock or offend & no objections to your position, whatever that is. So I guess you just struck out, that’s okay though, you can say what you want, it’s all free.

Yellowdog's avatar

I respect YOUR position, too, UCME. whatever that is—That is to say, I do not know what it is because thus far you have only presented yourself as mocking other users. I will respond to you this once, but if you have nothing relevant to say outside of mocking or trolling, my usual response is to ignore or disregard, and hope others will do the same. After this reply I will only respond if you actually have something to say.

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JLeslie's avatar

My short answer is be honest with her, stick to what you feel is right for yourself and your body. If you have a big disagreement sexually then maybe she isn’t the one for you.

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ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Yellowdog You were gifted this relationship so don’t fuck it up. I’m going to be brutally honest and say you should follow your gut instinct and do what feels right. You should never, ever feel guilty for a healthy sexual relationship between consenting adults. As an agnostic my perspective is that relationships come first. If it’s a healthy one then God or whatever will understand and small formalities of marriage/non-marriage will be ignored.

If you are what I expect then…
you could give me her number if it does not work out

lets see that IP address log

can the mods enlighten us on this one

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Adirondackwannabe's avatar

Except they are still here.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I believe I was just corrected by someone that knows writing styles better than I do. @Yellowdog I owe you an apology. I thought you were another jelly masquerading as someone new. My apologies.

Yellowdog's avatar

If anyone wants to check me out, google Askville and Yellowdog. (“Askville Yellowdog”). I was Yellowdog on the Askville Q & A site for about five years. Though ASKVILLE is now defunct, you can still read my answers and questions if you Google Askville and Yellowdog.

I don’t really think of this girl as particularly “horny’ —I suspect that most women want a sexual component to their romantic relationships. Unfortunately, I really CAN’T have sex outside of marriage, as much as I may want it.

Yellowdog's avatar

Oh, and, apologies accepted. You are right to check me out for the integrity of the website and the efforts of those answering the questions

rojo's avatar

If it were me, I would find a more humanistic religion that does not pose undue restrictions on normal human sexuality and enjoy each other.

Haleth's avatar

It sounds like you need to weigh a couple things very carefully and figure out what is important to you. On the one hand you have a current part-time job which may someday develop into a future career path. On the other hand you have a woman that you know a little (not a lot) and you’ve considered marrying her in order to have a sexual relationship with her.

Both of these paths are possibilities right now, not actualities. You could go down this career path, or you could choose others. There are lots of ways to help, guide, and educate people. This woman could be your future spouse if you decide to marry her. But in the secular world, this relationship is basically at the level of early-stage dating.

Each of these options has some serious drawbacks. What other people will think seems like a serious concern with this job path. On the other hand, it sounds like you and this woman are in the honeymoon phase of dating. The tantalizing possibility of sex is probably making this relationship seem more enticing than it is.

At this point in a non-religious relationship, the couple would probably have sex and that would help them sort out their feelings for each other. If you decide not to do that, maybe you should take sex off the table and let the relationship develop at its own pace. I’ve met a lot of unhappily married people who married because of circumstances or for reasons other than love. It’s not a good way to be.

ucme's avatar

Okay, so here’s the thing, if your religion dictates the path you follow then don’t question it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

What do your parents think of her? You are living with them, and they won’t let you stay out past midnight.

gorillapaws's avatar

In my opinion God has bigger problems to deal with than what base people are willing to go to before marrying each other.

I interpret the Bible loosely. I think the prohibitions against premarital sex are pragmatic and probably have to do more with preventing pregnancy outside of marriage than anything else, probably also to minimize drama (and the violence that results) between men competing for women in tribes. If they had safe and effective birth control back then, I suspect things would have been worded differently in the Bible.

Ultimately, you need to follow your heart. I would imagine you’re probably better at connecting with other people than most (through years of counseling others), not unlike a psychologist. Your instincts are probably very good. I would trust in them. Don’t rush into marriage just to have sex, you may be ok with that, but she may grow to resent you for it (even if she wants to now).

Yellowdog's avatar

Dutches III asked, “What do your parents think of her? You are living with them, and they won’t let you stay out past midnight.”

As you might have guessed, this is why the motel thing is becoming necessary. To answer your question, my mother and father have never met this woman,. but because of having nowhere to be alone, staying in motels and going on trips is about the only place to be together in a comfortable, private setting

You may have been joking or mocking, Dutchess, but the point you raise actually IS the issue I’m dealing with!

Dutchess_III's avatar

I wasn’t joking. Just wondering. Is there any reason you haven’t introduced her to them?

Also, why can’t you guys just go to her place?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

We would like to have a sexual relationship but as a Christian and a pastor this is out of the question outside of marriage and she seems to understand this—(she is a Christian also) unfortunately, marriage will not be possible for a year or so for financial reasons, and honestly, we haven’t known each other long enough
Unless she is still on milk, she would not even approach you in that way that you have to explain it to her, she would know what the bible says about it.

All details and emotions aside, if we were in face-to-face fellowship, and as a pastor I confided in you with this conundrum, what advice would you give me? Whatever you would have told me (unless you were stumped), that is what you should do, even if it is an option that hurt. It could be a test to see where your loyalty and faith lies, with your flesh or with the Lord.

Yellowdog's avatar

This is in response to Dutchess— after which, I am writing a response to Hypocrisy Central, which will follow,

We’ve never gotten around to it—I’ve pretty much been providing my parents’ transportation to appointments—they don’t drive. The woman in question lives in another county, about 50 miles from me. When I introduce her to my parents, it will probably be at a public place or event, such as a restaurant or church function or an event with mutual friends.

She is on disability also, and lives with her parents, who thus far have not been very receptive to me. Although she HAS served as a paralegal, it doesn’t seem likely that she will be working anytime soon— I probably will through teaching or a nonprofit agency or the ministry— I am just getting back into the ‘real world’ after being unable to work due to a gunshot wound, severe nerve damage, and pain. After three years I have finally received disability backpay but am actually able to work now.

Yellowdog's avatar

Hypocrisy Central: Hello and thanks for putting it so plainly. Since we do not have a regular place to ourselves, we have now found an opportunity but it will not be overnight and it will not be sexually intimate At our ages, and both of us being unmarried, we have set limits as to how far we can go with this but agree that now is not the time for intimacy. Our relationship will have to continue to APPEAR platonic to outsiders and will have limits according to what is actually appropriate. We have agreed we are not uncommitted or casual and we have agreed where it should stop—at this point, at least.

When I originally asked this question, it was indeed a potential crises for me. But things are more clear now—thanks in part to the views of so many Fluther users

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