Social Question

Demosthenes's avatar

How many immigrants can we realistically take in?

Asked by Demosthenes (14938points) June 29th, 2018

I understand that most immigrants are people who are simply hoping for a better life. I’m the product of immigrants who were hoping for a better life in America.

At the same time, I’m sure that the majority of the world’s population desires a “better life”. Most of the world’s countries are poor. Most are far less developed than Europe/America. But that doesn’t mean we can just let everyone who wants a better life come to Europe/America. And is it really a better life if those immigrants just end up in gangs and ghettos here? Not all do, of course, but some do (including people I know), and that’s pretty tragic.

It’s also sad to me that it seems these countries with problems are giving up. They’re admitting they can’t fix the problems, so they’re just saying “let’s all come to Europe/America”. But that’s not a long-term solution. And what does it say of the people left behind?

I’m interested in a more in-depth discussion about the long-term ramifications of immigration. I want to know how tenable it is.

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115 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

The yearly financial aid paid to the long term unemployed, in Germany, including rent, per person, is about 11.700$ (converted).
Your annual defence budget is 610 billion.
If you take just half of that wasted money, and assuming that all those immigrants will remain perpetually unemployed, you can take in 26 million, and all that without having to raise any taxes!

Kropotkin's avatar

Well, all of the ones that have any desire to go there.

The USA has a relatively low population density and is a net crop exporter. A few million immigrants isn’t much of a burden, especially when you factor in that many of those people end up economically active (immigrants tend to be younger, healthier, and looking for work) and contributing to the the USA’s productive capacity.

The problem of people ending up in gangs and ghettos is a systemic one based on vastly unequal access to resources—poverty and crime have a causal connection. Perhaps if the USA had better economic and social policies, and wasn’t run by monumental bandits out to enrich themselves at any cost, then this issue would be hugely alleviated both for immigrants and US citizens.

“It’s also sad to me that it seems these countries with problems are giving up.”

This doesn’t follow. Just because there are people who want to leave a country out of desperation, poverty, etc, it doesn’t mean that that “country” has “given up”. A country’s issues are a matter of national policy, and not of individuals wanting to move to find a better life.

And when it comes to many developing countries, they’re usually constrained and affects by the demands of international capital, of governments of richer nations, and by problems with internal corruption. NAFTA was a disaster for Mexico as their indigenous farmers couldn’t compete with US corporations and industrial farming, for example. Lots of countries are given loans and aid on condition of “liberalising” their markets to be exploited by multinational corporations, nearly always to their detriment. There is basically a vast export of wealth from poor countries to the rich. It is what’s known as neo-colonialism.

elbanditoroso's avatar

I think that your question is too general. The US seems to have no problem taking in immigrants who have money and/or education. And people whose skin is a lighter color.

The US has difficulty letting in people that are brown or black, especially of those people don’t have education or a lot of money.

The US, from a capacity point of view, could accept hundreds of thousands of immigrants. We have the space, we have the food, we have the jobs to give them. The issue these days is that certain parties vilify all immigrants because of irrational nativist fears.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Bravo @Kropotkin It should be pointed out that this isn’t a matter of governments giving up. It’s more about levels of impoverishment rising to the point that a country becomes in effect ungovernable. As I said before, Latin America merely duplicates what happened here when corporate enrichment dictated measures rendering rural life in America untenable. Imagine the results when such measures are implemented in places where rural life is all there is. And the rise of gangs and criminals are indeed simply outgrowths of stark inequality. The mafia does not cancel out the benefits afforded this country from Italian immigrants, and Whitey Bulger is a bargain price for the contributions of Irish Americans to our household. Ideally, the solution would be to render the places these people come from habitable again, but there are no quick profits to be derived from THAT. So we should brace ousevles, because even in the face of our own declining standard of living, immigration rises to the dominating issue in the coming decades. Stern unpalatable measures are almost certainly in front of us as long as greed is permitted to drive the world economy.

Yellowdog's avatar

@elbanditoroso About 90% of LEGAL immigrants to the U.S. are non-white, mostly Asian.

I cannot understand your (shall I say ‘the left’) wanting to make a racist assertion any chance you/they get. It totally corrupts your argument. Very few “whites” migrate to America. compared to Asians, Middle Easterners, and Latinos.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@ragingloli I don’t know how your system works. Monies paid to the unemployed is called unemployment and it has some restrictions on it.
1) You have to have worked at a job for at least 6 months,
2) Have to be let go (not quit)
3) you have to be a citizen and
4) it only lasts about 6 months.
In other words immigrants / non citizens would not qualify for unemployment or other government benefits.

Can you explain your system to me? Do they actually pay illegal immigrants unemployment?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@Yellowdog Very few Whites immigrate here TODAY. But EACH and EVERY group of migrants including those brought over in chains has been demonized EXACTLY as the current crop of desperate people. Jews, Italians, the Irish, take your pick. Our language just bubbles over with ethnic slurs for these people that we all know, and just because it is now un-pc to label our current crop out loud with ethnic slanders, the fool in the White House who knows nothing of his country’s history travels the same path of slurring refugees as the fools of 100 years ago.

ragingloli's avatar

@Dutchess_III
I am purely talking what is financially possible in the worst case scenario.

gorillapaws's avatar

Thank god we took in the Syrian refugee Abdul Fattah Jandali.

janbb's avatar

@gorillapaws I find the anti-immigration argument about not letting terrorists in to be pretty specious when the government is not trying to do a damn thing to prevent white mass murderers from acting. They are the ones currently causing the most deaths in the USA.

flutherother's avatar

It isn’t always people looking for a ”better life”. Millions have fled their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs out of fear for their lives. There are over a million of them in Lebanon for example where they are almost a quarter of the population. The equivalent number for the US would be 80 million refugees. They live in poverty and have no security as few have legal residency.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@flutherother If they are in fear for their lives where they live, then they most definitely are looking for a better life when they run.

flutherother's avatar

True, but one is a migrant and the other a refugee.

janbb's avatar

@gorillapaws I goofed and I apologize. I thought you were talking about a terrorist – not Steve Jobs father.

rojo's avatar

I don’t think that there is an upper limit. At least not any time in the immediate future.

Unless they aren’t white in which case we are full.

rojo's avatar

@Yellowdog while you may be statistically correct, I don’t have that information, I don’t know how you can listen/read what Trump and key allies and then feign ignorance of how people can get the idea that his policies are racially motivated in many cases.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Trump supporters are the most irrational, immoral people I’ve ever encountered in my life.

Dutchess_III's avatar

“Never underestimate the power of the human mind to believe what it wants to believe, no matter the conflicting evidence.” ~ Dune: House Harkonnen

Yellowdog's avatar

It seems to me that just about all of you are responding on this thread to make accusations against ‘white Americans’ of being racists.

The United States takes in more refugees and immigrants than all other nations combined, and no one’s complains as long as its legal and we know who they are.

Trump has been trying to prevent unvetted refugees and illegal immigrants from entering the country. Enforcing the law is not racist or immoral.

What is far more scary is the way the Left is making blanket statements like these and is encouraging violence and unrest at the border and in our cities, and encouraging acts of actual violence, rioting, and harassment against public officials and ICE agents. The coup against the administration has not worked, yet, by weaponizing the FBI and DOJ. Turning lesser informed younger citizens and recruiting the cause of illegal aliens at our country’s weak borders is the new plan.

janbb's avatar

What??? That doesn’t even make sense.

Yellowdog's avatar

Well, your alternative is to believe what many on this site are espousing. We are the most racist nation on Earth. Check the prisons. Check the southern border.

rojo's avatar

yep, looking at the prisons and the border would pretty much codify that we are surprisingly racist in both our attitudes and our laws @Yellowdog . Can’t deny facts (unless you are a conservative that is).

seawulf575's avatar

I guess it depends on the immigrants. Right now, about 75% of all immigrant families with children (legal and illegal) are getting some sort of public assistance. That is unsustainable if that percentage holds true going forward.
What everyone seems to forget about immigration in this country is that up until the last couple decades we had strict immigration laws that were enforced. Even back in the 1800’s when Ellis Island and Galveston were letting in thousands and thousands of immigrants, not everyone that showed up was allowed in. They were required to have skills that could be used or money that would sustain them for a period of time.
Another consideration is the criminal element and drugs that come into this country with the immigrants. We might still exist as a country, but it might be a very dangerous place.

stanleybmanly's avatar

These families get public assistance initially, but that assitance can vary from a sandwich through subsidized housing, and is usually not meant as long term relief.

kritiper's avatar

We should only be taking in those that enter legally, and have the education, know-how, and/or gumption to work hard, pay their taxes, be good citizens, and not be a drag on our society.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It is a very general question.

I will stick with my opinions, that we could take in a whole lot. But we’d have to make some easy changes, that would be fought hard by conservatives…

Yellowdog's avatar

One of those changes would be that we would become like Venezuela, but without borders and a teeming population of refugees

gorillapaws's avatar

@Yellowdog or, you know we could cut our obscene military budget to pre-Bush levels, get rid of the tax breaks for the billionaires, legalize/tax marijuana, and end corporate welfare…

The Venezuela strawman is such bullshit. How about Norway instead?

Yellowdog's avatar

@rojo Not only do prisons and the southern border codify our racism, but the crimes themselves. I was shot by two black men on September 11,2011. Maybe they were black men because of racism.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I haven’t heard claims that we are the most racist nation on earth, but our xenophobia certainly is on the upswing as the world wide migration goes from simmer to boil. Our position on immigrants reminds me of the scene from the Disney cartoon version of Alice in Wonderland, where Alice emerges from the forest/garden to find this huge dining table sumptuously laden with all the goodies expected for high tea. There are only 3 individuals seated at this vast table, the mad hatter, the doormouse and the march hare; but the moment Alice appears the 3 of them run around the table screaming at the top of their lungs “NO ROOM NO ROOM NO ROOM”

YARNLADY's avatar

I wonder if the fact that we are now giving room and board to thousands and thousands of :illegal” immigrants should be explored? Wouldn’t it be better to simply declare them refugees and begin assimilation?

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

about 75% of all immigrant families with children (legal and illegal) are getting some sort of public assistance.

Useless factoid without more details and a source.

Define assistance. How much public assistance does an “illegal” person receive on average?

JLeslie's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay Here’s a good article on that. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

Basically, it says new immigrants cost us money, but their children, first generation Americans (or also called second generation immigrants) eventually contribute way more than their tax burden. It also points out that since we have a tax deficit, every citizen on average basically costs more than we pay in. One of the big tax burdens mentioned that comes along with new immigrants is education for their children.

Overall, the argument would be pro-immigration not against from a long term point of view the way I read it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

If we give them the ability to work legally, whilst awaiting trial for citizenship, they wouldn’t need as much assistance, we could take income tax from them, and when it’s time for their trial whatever job they’ve been working could help us determine their skill set or value…

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Basically, it says new immigrants cost us money

Is says that is true IF you ignore the economic benefit.

Immigrants, legal or not, buy food, clothing, housing, fuel, consumer goods, utilities, and everything else it takes to live in the US.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I don’t know if you’re talking to me, or to the group, but I’d say the long term benefit outweighs the short term expense. I say the same about spending tax money for college, especially for those who truly don’t have the means to pay for school, but have the academic ability and desire to get a higher education.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I was pointing out something in your link.It says they cost governments more money immediately, largely by schooling the kids, and explicitly ignores economic benefits.

“Whatever costs immigrants might present now will be “paid back” by overall economic growth that will lead to more tax revenue on average for the government and less demand for need-based benefit programs. “The $279 billion calculation does not include any estimate of this effect”

Regardless, @seawulf575‘s claim is unfounded nonsense and as always, he can’t back it up. he spouts beliefs, not facts.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I basically said that when I first linked the article, so I thought maybe you were addressing me directly. We’re agreeing anyway.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

You said in the long run, but (it’s not quite clear in the article) I think the economic benefits are immediate and not in the number. Spending in the private sector is immediate.

Immigrants, legal or otherwise, are spending at retail just like citizens. They buy cars and trucks. Everybody here is paying sales, property, and gas taxes. They buy property and rent property. They pay for utilities.

JLeslie's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay True, but they also sometimes send some money back to their country too. Especially, if their wife and kids are still back there.

kritiper's avatar

I suppose if some people think there aren’t enough people here they should move to New York City.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Whatever that means??

kritiper's avatar

If some people think there aren’t enough people here, they should move to a place where there are shit loads of people!

JLeslie's avatar

There is a ton of open space in America still. Not that I want to crowd it all up, but there really is a lot of land. Hopefully, as the population continues to grow, we don’t do too much suburban sprawl and try to do more dense cities and also maintain large open spaces.

kritiper's avatar

Just because there is lots of space doesn’t mean it has to be filled up. People need resources, like lumber and water. And electrical power. Put them in your back yard, not mine. Or restrict their numbers (birth rates). The time to start is NOW!

kritiper's avatar

FACT: The Southwest United States is running out of water. For people and crops.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

OK, child. Give us a call when there is no longer a demand for farm workers in the southwestern US.

kritiper's avatar

We can still use farm workers. Let them come in the legal way. Just don’t let people in general come in willy-nilly and take up residence all over the place.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

We can still use farm workers. Let them come in the legal way.

So you’ve flipped from “too many people!!” to “we need them, but….”

People don’t settle in “willy-nilly and take up residence all over the place”. They go where there are jobs.

kritiper's avatar

No, I haven’t flipped. There would be a great difference between, say, 50,000 job seekers/migrant workers and 5 million just wanna live heres. Jobs or no jobs.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I have trouble why someone would think somebody who just ran the gauntlet of getting here, would automatically be lazy…

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

If your concern was overcrowding, you’d be equally dismayed at the people moving to the Sunbelt from other states and Canada.

You aren’t dismayed by them. Your prejudice is transparent.

JLeslie's avatar

^^He did talk about birth rates. He’s probably one of those people concerned about the population growth in general.

Yellowdog's avatar

I never said, here or in my previous posts, that Latinos were lazy. Although it IS true that there is a period of time when they ARE dependent on the government and other sources.
I was shot in a robbery in 2011 and lived on disability from 2015 through earlier this year, and I can attest that although many African Americans and other American natives who have crummy health plans and little to no income, an almost equal number of Latinos are on public assistance and occupy the charities and government assistant programs for payment of utility bills, medical costs, etc

I am not saying they are lazy, or live frivilously. Many of them are just eking out a living any way they can.

What IS apparent is that the overwhelming majority of those who enter our country illegally do not have health insurance and use ERs, charities, and other resources for healthcare needs.

I live in Memphis, not particularly known for its Hispanic population—but the ERs are mostly Latinos, many of whom do not speak English. I have never found a roofer or gardener of Latin American origin which carries insurance for themselves or their employees. Most churches carry health needs and other services for undocumented Central American and Mexican migrants—and they are nearly deplenished of all resources no matter what the budget.

We have many disabled and many below the poverty level who do not get basic services for their survival. I took care of a disabled woman (a former Easter Seals poster child) who had been neglected by the system for many years until she finally passed away in 2012. I attribute the endless health care debacles, always trying to put her on the least expensive meds and government programs, to her death. But she was only getting $23 a month for food. Large immigrant families consume far more with their children and seniors than this woman did. We have plenty of poor in this country already, and most of the migrant families do not have the job skills or language skills to improve this situation much, no matter how hard they work—and yes, they DO work hard. Or have some member of the family who does.

No one is cold hearted enough to not want to help. But to have so many millions storming our borders, first sending their children and spearheading them, then bringing other relatives through chain migration—our resources do not permit the entirity of the world’s poor entering the U.S. for a better life.

We in America are about one gum ball in a gum ball machine of the world’s needy poor. Maybe 1/100th or a 99:1 ratio—and are still doing more to help the world’s poor than any other nation or agency in the world.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I am so astonished at the number of people who casually say, “They need to come the legal way,” as if it’s no more trouble than boarding a plane or whatever. People who say that…PLEASE look up what it takes to come here legally. Thousands of dollars and YEARS, neither of which they have.

Yellowdog's avatar

If we had the resources, we could let in everybody.

But these resources have been ebbing as the population of those in need, as well as the illegal migrant population, has grown exponentially .

Dutchess_III's avatar

Any proof that the illegal migrant problem has grown exponentially? Do you know what that word even means?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III They DO need to come the legal way. And our legal way can be onerous. It needs to be cleaned up. But that is where those that are in favor of the immigrants drop the ball. They want an easy out for anyone that wants to come into our country. That also allows the criminal element to enter since there is a desire to ignore the immigration laws altogether.
They blame President Trump for the immigration laws. It isn’t the president’s job to write or amend the laws. It is the job of congress. Until you are writing and harassing your congressmen and senators, you are spinning your wheels. Your argument consists of “ignore the law”.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I want to help save lives. I know you don’t care, but then again, you’re a Christian, and that’s par for the Christian course nowadays.
The only thing we’re blaming Trump for is that fucked up thing about separating kids from their families and the mongrel stopped that bullshit.

I would ignore the law to save my children’s lives. In a heart beat. Yes. Ignore the laws and get your kids here where we can help.

ragingloli's avatar

To quote the great Benjamin Sisko:
“So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I can live with it.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

I could certainly live with it, if it was regarding my kids.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III so the current method has allowed criminals like the MS13 gangs into our nation and they have taken lives in the most brutal of ways. Is that acceptable to you then? Because you can’t have it both ways. You can cry about saving lives, but the current method of not vetting people is costing lives. As for the bit of separating children from their parents, your buddy Obama started that crap. I know you want to blame President Trump, but he didn’t start that. Where was your outrage for the last couple years of Obama’s term in office?
I feel sorry for you that you are so hate filled. Being a Christian doesn’t mean I don’t care. But there are parts of this whole thing that you are ignoring, such as the deaths caused by the criminals that are coming into our country illegally.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

the current method has allowed criminals like the MS13 gangs into our nation and they have taken lives in the most brutal of ways

Remember when you peed your pants in fear of the Muslim brotherhood? Remember when ebola was going to destroy your way of life? Remembe when Iraq had WMDs and was allied with Al Qaeda? Remember when we were going to war with North Korea? Remember when ISIS was infiltrating America? Remember when Obama was building FEMA camps for dissenters. Remember when Death Panels were coming for you?

None of those threats were real. And they all had conservatives in hysteria. Today’s topic is MS13.

Conservatives are impressionable and fearful, easily led by the nose with scary stories.

Tomorrow they’ll have you quaking in fear of something else. Unless you evolve a little bit and open your eyes.

stanleybmanly's avatar

There’s the hate thing again. But the pretense that this latest uproar is about hatred for Trump is both stupid and dishonest, and attempts to spin it as such are going nowhere. Obama never announced nor gloated over an open AND deliberate policy of punishing people through confiscation of their children. And you should be ashamed of the desperately stupid claim that snatching toddlers from their parents is a useful tactic in thwarting MS-13. You spend a lot of time here denouncing all us hypocrites, but I cannot emphasize how silly you sound pretending that this fool didn’t seriously screw this one up.

rojo's avatar

Maybe the correct answer is “42”.

seawulf575's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay You are an idiot. The Muslim Brotherhood has been the birth place of people like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (leader of ISIS), Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri, the co-founders of al Qaeda. Maybe you support terrorism? Ebola killed more than 11,000 people. But that must be acceptable to you as well. I’ll give you that Iraq and the WMDs was a scam, I’ve never argued otherwise. It was the LEFT that was screaming that President Trump was going to start WWIII with NK. What, you forgot the talking points you supported already? ISIS in America. I guess places like San Bernadino and Orlando weren’t important enough to count as a threat. But then, as we discovered with the Muslim Brotherhood, you just support terrorism. The FEMA camps were always a stretch for me, but Obama did target conservatives while he was in office. Look at the IRS. Look at his calls to outlaw conservative news outlets. Death panels were part of the ACA, if you care to search it. No, they weren’t called death panels, but that’s what they were. And we recently saw them in action in GB so please, don’t try denying they exist in socialized medicine.
But according to you, in your fantasy world, none of these things are a threat. MS13 is also a threat. Here is an interesting article:

https://www.chron.com/crime/article/The-most-violent-MS-13-crimes-of-2017-so-far-11168242.php#photo-12480391

But again…you are so heartless that cruel and brutal murders are okay in your fantasyland. Carry on because I know you are a useless waste of life that cares about nobody but will defend liberalism to the bitter end.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly so it’s okay that @Dutchess_III can spew hate at me for being a Christian but if I respond I’m the bad guy? You, like @Call_Me_Jay are an idiot.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

…spew hate at me…

…You, like @Call_Me_Jay are an idiot.

OK, child. You’re the calm reasonable one.

Your government-funded health care provides meds. Do they make an effort to assure you are taking them? It seems like maybe doses often get skipped.

Yellowdog's avatar

Christian groups are VERY active in working with immigrant communities and charities that cater to them, as well as foreign missions. I know several youth and adult groups that go to Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean on a regular basis, many paying their own way and all of them giving up vacation time from their careers to work in some pretty abysmal settings, rebuilding from natural disasters and aiding the sick and those in poverty. Most of the work with foreign immigrants in MY community is done by Christian Neighborhood Centers, United Methodist Neighborhood Centers, the Church Health Center, Catholic Charities, and a few of the megachurches have their own ministries and programs.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Um, I’m pretty sure MS-13 started in the US as a way for Central Americans to gang up against other gangs already existing. Like a protection. If they had come into a part of the US not already gang ridden there probably wouldn’t be an MS-13. I don’t know how it has changed over time. Now MS-13 is in Latin America too as far as I know.

It possibly is a lesson that bullying and violent people create more bullies and violent people. Maybe if they were treated well once here it would be very different. I don’t know if the original MS-13 were legally here or not. It really doesn’t matter to me. What matters is, if MS-13 and other gangs are out of control, wreaking havoc, that’s a failure on us that needs to be corrected by local law enforcement probably more than immigration.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Christian groups are VERY active in working with immigrant communities

So join them instead of being a cheerleader for Trump and Sessions and concentration camps.

You’re welcome for the free advice. Enjoy.

kritiper's avatar

Forgive, if you can, if certain among us refuse your errant advice.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . Wasn’t Osama Bin Laden was born in Saudi Arabia? Weren’t all but one of the 9/11 high hackers from there too?

This is the logic I have been attacking. In one breath, it’s not a problem that SA isn’t on the travel ban, in the other it’s a breeding ground for terrorists.

In one breath, we have to stop immigrants from coming in without vetting, in another breath, ah it’s OK if they are Canadian (white.)

MrGrimm888's avatar

Christian charity is NOT charity. It is just promoting the spread of Christianity. Nothing more… Those who donate their time, and money, are just free employees of their religion. Nothing more…

I understand that they think they are helping. That’s admirable. But they are just aiding a virus-like religion. Adding to it’s power and influence, to further manipulate the world for it’s own bidding…

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You are correct about MS13 starting in LA. However, because of our non-existent border they have gone back and forth to Central America repeatedly to expand their territory and criminal enterprises. If we didn’t allow illegals to just come in and then find ourselves deporting them again and again (some of the leaders of MS13 were deported multiple times, regardless of their history), we wouldn’t, and the world wouldn’t, have the problems with MS13 that exist.
The idea of not having bullying is nice, but not realistic. Unfortunately, it is human nature for bullying to exist. Just as it is human nature for greed or envy to exist.
And yes, we need to deal with the gangs. Unfortunately, with more an more sanctuary cities popping up, these criminals are being released rather than deported, allowing them to continue to grow and spread.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 OBL was born in SA. I’m not sure about all the other 9/11 players, they could have been. But the nations on the travel ban list have made overt threats against us…SA has not. Now, as for the immigrants coming in without vetting…when have I ever said it was okay for Canadians to come in without being vetted? When have I ever said that any immigrants should be allowed into our country without vetting? I did say that it makes no financial sense to build a wall along the northern border of our country because there isn’t the huge illegal influx we see at the southern border. That does not mean we shouldn’t patrol the border or control the border or let in whomever wants to enter our country with no questions asked. I have campaigned long and hard that we need to enforce immigration laws. Why is it that when I say we should follow our own laws, liberals heads explode?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Speaking of those laws, did you know that coming here illegally is a misdemeanor offense? Wonder why?

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . You have said you are OK with Canadian immigrants coming in unvetted (by not supportinga wall there.)You HAVE displayed an indefensible support for a southern wall(with mostly brown people,) versus zero desire for the northern border’s having a wall for the exact same security concerns.

I can’t speak for liberals, as I’m not one. But. The conservatives have nothing to hide behind, on this issue. Race is a factor. Or maybe racial ignorance, and fear… But race is at play.

Yellowdog's avatar

@MrGrimm888 The two factors that make a wall necessary at the Southern border as opposed to a wall at Canada are the following:

(1) The sheer NUMBER of people entering the country illegally, a tremendous burden to the infrastructure. No one from Canada burdens themselves with entering the U.S.

(2) Security concerns. There is a lot of violent crime, human trafficking, sex trafficking, gun running and drug cartels, at the southern border. A LOT. This is because, as you @MrGrimm888 attest, there is a lot of poverty and a lot of countries down there in poverty, a lot of whom do drug and gang business in the U.S.

Canada has international and gun crime too. but most of the crime originates in the U.S. cities, such as Detroit There is not a lot of population, nor poverty, nor crime—to our North. Many Canadians have dual citizenship. With the exception of a few border cities there is not a crime problem between the two countries.

The fact that Mexico and Central American immigrants are Latino, or the color of their pigmentation, has nothing to do with it. African Americans are a darker skinned, darker eyed race than Latinos but they have been a part of American society as long as whites have, and for over 50 years have been a part of the same America as whites. I had black teachers, coaches, and a school principal in my predominantly white school when I was a child in the early 1970s. Society was still learning racial equality, but most of us were taught, by that time, that racial attitudes were mean and uncouth—and illegal.

I am 54 years old and have never seen segregation—although I do remember when schools were largely non-integrated due to whether bussing had been assigned in the area, and the location of your school.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I would dearly love to see my response where I said unvetted immigrants from anywhere was acceptable. Please, let me know the thread and if you can cut/paste my response, even better.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawul575 .I was using conservative logic. “If you don’t support the wall, you support illegal immigration.”

@Yellowdog . “No one from Canada burdens themselves with entering the US.” Seriously?
How about murderers, rapists, drug traffickers, and others deliberately entering illegally, and for nefarious purposes? To suggest that there are none, is beyond ridiculous. It speaks volumes to the fact that race is at play here. You can’t perceive white people as criminals as easily as you can other races. I’m not calling that racist, but race is a factor for you… As it is for most other conservatives.

Dutchess_III's avatar

If there are any Canadians who are dumb enough to want to downgrade to the US, they have the means and the time. They don’t have to worry about their children being gunned down in the streets in the next few days, while waiting for the years long wait to immigrate to be up.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 After the numerous times you have tried that same logic, it doesn’t hold true. I have addressed that time and again. I don’t support illegal immigration. I have made that as clear as I can possibly make it. I don’t agree with anyone entering this country illegally. You can try twisting that statement into some kind of racist thing, but that racism exists, as it does in every liberal, only in your mind. I have stated this (in a different thread):

“I can only speak for myself. It wouldn’t make a whit of difference. I don’t care if they are white, brown, black, yellow, or green. They are violating the sanctity of our national borders. That is the issue. I would be all for deporting them if they were all caucasian.”

Can that be any more clear? It isn’t about race. Get over yourself. I am a conservative. I don’t look at race when it comes to illegal anything. I don’t believe that any group should be given any extra consideration when it comes to breaking laws. You do the crime, you get the time.

Yellowdog's avatar

@seawulf575 I think some people, like MrGrimm888, have a desperate need to label conservatives or others they disagree with as racists. When one demonizes or labels someone they disagree with, they can convince themselves they are right and needn’t think for themselves any further.

Some people try to play nice, but still narrowly cling to demonizing others as if they are afraid to let go of their hate and prejudices that challenge their own narrow views about other positions. MrGrimm has called me a racist just about every time I post anything. It’s almost getting funny.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, it is unfortunate that those who behave in the most intolerant, racist, inhumane ways label themselves as conservatives. Maybe we need to find a 3rd party for that kind of horrible person.

seawulf575's avatar

Actually, I have found the liberals to be the most intolerant and focused on race.

ragingloli's avatar

It was not liberals that were walking through the streets, chanting “The Jews will not replace us!”.

MrGrimm888's avatar

The only demonizing going on is coming from the Trump camp. Demonizing the media, Latino immigrants, our nation’s intelligence community, entire nations…

@Yellowdog . I have not called you racist. I have stated that race is a variable, in how conservatives perceive immigrants. I believe the conservative jellies that have offered opinions on the matter displayed this quite clearly, in one form or another… Just observation…

@seawulf575 . Again, your complete lack of ferocity/urgency of wanting a Canadian wall, and your blanket/unverifiable statements regarding immigrants from the southern border, lead me to the obvious conclusion that you also, while maybe not a racist, do factor in race, when deciding who is “undesirable.”..

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t think wanting a wall is the major problem, that takes the attention away from really discussing immigration issues. The wall would be extremely expensive, if won’t be perfect at keeping people out, but most of all, we need to figure what what our policy is going to be.

I think democrats perceive wanting a wall as saying the people who want the wall don’t want anyone coming in from the southern border period. It does feel like that when they’re chanting “build the wall.” It’s mob mentality, and seems very us and them.

What if we only talked about legal immigration? Then what are the republicans ok with? I have no idea. No one is really talking about it. That conversation would show the real side of how much they are willing to let Latin Americans in.

I’m not talking about anyone on this thread, I’m talking about in the media, politicians, talking heads, etc.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I haven’t heard shit from the dems. On this, or really any issue.

JLeslie's avatar

^^What do you mean by that? You want them to say more? What I hear from the Dems is they don’t want a wall, they want everyone to have a heart and let people into the country. Sometimes they sound like they want to let everyone in, but who really knows. No one is actually talking numbers or specific plans.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That’s the problem. They are going to fail to capitalize, on all the energy against the GOP/Trump. I started a thread about this, so as not to pollute this one…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You are a piece of work. You are obsessed with a Canadian Wall. In your mind (and ONLY in your mind) if a person isn’t screaming for a Canadian wall, they are a racist or only care about race. I’m done trying to go over this same idiocy. I have stated my views. They are not racist, they look at the problem and possible solutions and the viability of those solutions. You are trying to point fingers. Enjoy.

MrGrimm888's avatar

No. You’ve actually helped prove my point. It wasn’t enjoyable. All conservatives have been very predictable. I was hoping to hear an angle I hadn’t contemplated. Just regurgitated conservative propaganda, mixed with intentional distortion of reality.

The only thing I really learned is that conservatives can’t tell the difference between being called racist, and simply having someone point out that race is an obvious variable in their thought process. They are two different things… And two different types of conservatives.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@MrGrimm888 What do you mean the Dems haven’t mentioned the wall? Of course we have! Over and over again. But at the moment our concern is with trump separating families at the border bullshit. When the wall rears its ugly head again, we’ll get back on it.

Yellowdog's avatar

The policy of “Trump separating families at the border” actually had nothing to do with Trump, and was done away with by Trump nine days ago.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Oh brother! Are you really that blind?

gorillapaws's avatar

@Yellowdog First you say: “If we had the resources, we could let in everybody.

But these resources have been ebbing as the population of those in need, as well as the illegal migrant population, has grown exponentially .”

Then you say: “The two factors that make a wall necessary at the Southern border…”

Please explain to me how we’re too broke to help people that are dying (often as a result of decades of US policy and corporate exploitation). But… we can somehow spend Trillions? of dollars building/maintaining/patrolling and eventually destroying a giant wall? Do you really think Christ would be for the wall?

As for being too broke, our country is spending $700 billion dollars per year on the military. We also just gave a massive tax break to billionaires and corporations (and a tiny one for everyone else). We are the richest country in the history of the world, and we can certainly afford to do a lot more. It’s just a matter of our priorities.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog . The Child separating thing, was put into the books by Obama. However, it was not implemented until Trump himself made it a priority. He then blamed the dems, and claimed he was powerless to stop it. Yes. A couple weeks later, he proved himself a liar, yet again.

No doubt his peers told him he was throwing away the midterms, so he walked yet another one of his lies… It’s just that simple… Trump was prepared to use the children as political leverage. Again, something from his own mouth…

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 why is it so hard to admit that Obama did exactly the same thing (separating illegal immigrant children) for years? He DID implement it. That’s where a lot of the pictures came from about the horrible living condition. The MSM was blaming President Trump and using the pictures that were taken in 2014. Who was the president then? Obama separated children from their parents at the border…period. The outrage happened when the MSM suddenly found something they thought they could pin on President Trump and tried fooling everybody….again. Apparently their brainwashing works because we are having this conversation.

Yellowdog's avatar

This issue was really big in some circles in 2014.

Sean Hannity on Fox (the cable channel) showed a montage of 21 times Obama addressed the issue cogently to very calm audiences and said he couldn’t sign an executive order because it was a congressional act and anything he signed wouldn’t stand And that we are a nation of laws and this was the law—it was not his place to override the laws on this matter.

I find it odd that four people in this thread are now believing this is still happening and was implemented by Trump. Two weeks ago, most were admitting the sources of the pictures were taken during the Obama administration, specifically 2014. Now, four of you are saying this never happened under Obama.

Trump signed it away. It is no longer happening. Most have been reunited with their parents. Some are on their own, as was probably their original intention.

You cannot pin this on Trump. People remember.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@seawulf575 . No. Wrong again. We’re having this conversation because Trump was making sure that he went as hard as he could against the immigrants, AND bragged about it, and lied about it. As usual, NO CONSPIRACY, just Trump’s actions, and own words.

@Yellowdog . I, and the nation, have put this right where it belongs. In Trump’s lap. And by extension, in his supporters lap’s.

rojo's avatar

Read the other day that many of the 33% of hard core Trump supporters believe him when he says that most illegal immigrants are rapists, drug dealers and murderers and that even more of them also believe that by them coming to the US they are going to take away jobs from real Americans.

Just as a matter of interest, if they honestly believe both of those statements, what do you think most of us do for a living here?

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Wow. So despite actual evidence AND admission from the MSM, you are still in denial.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Let’s consider for a moment the wulf/dog narrative. The 2 of you insisit that there isn’t a lick of difference between Trump And Obama policies regarding the separation of children from parents at the border. It therefore follows that Trump’s current public relations catastrophe results solely from biased reporting and rabble rousing on the part of the liberal mainstream media. The problem with this description of events is that it ignores the REAL difference between Obama and the fool. The difference is this: Unlike Obama the fool openly declared his intention to deliberately weaponize the policy to deter immigration. In other words, Trump transformed a routine policy of separation of adults from children to one of deliberate terrorism, whereby kids would be torn from their parents with little consideration for their future return to the
those parents. To emphasize the terrorism aspects, kids were snatched then deliberately scattered throughout the country depriving parents of any clue on the whereabouts of their kids. You 2 should drop the stupid bullshit about Trump’s persecution by the liberal press. Look at the truth. The fool declares that he intends to brutalize immigrants, then ruthlessly carries out that intention, and you 2 conclude the press is at fault for covering it.

stanleybmanly's avatar

You know what all this liberal mainstream media bias crap is about? It boils down to the necessity to dispararge credible journalism in order to spin up preposterous nonsense for low information recipients who unfortunately comprise a considerable portion of our gullible population.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@seawulf575 and all of you, yes kids were sometimes separated from the adults they crossed the border with but only if the authorities had a suspicion that the child did not belong to the adults they came with, and could be being trafficked, or were otherwise in danger. They would, and DO, separate American children from their parents for the same reason.
That is not what Trump was doing. There was no reason to think any kids were in danger. They were just ripped away with no explanation or reason. All part of his sadistic policy.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Media bias? Our President’s performance thus far consists of a man habitually yelling “I’m going to do something stupid.” The clown virtually BEGS for bad press. He WON’T tolerate being ignored.

seawulf575's avatar

“Don’t ruin my fantasy!” “What will I do if what the big bad seawulf says is true?” You are all very pitiful. The media admitted they were using pictures from 2014 and attributing it to President Trump. They said of those pictures that they were examples of how President Trump was abusing the children of the illegal immigrants. And they did show atrocious conditions. But that was what Obama was doing…not President Trump. But again…don’t let reality interfere. You certainly don’t want to have to rethink your entire deluded belief system. Easier to ignore it and blame me. Have at it. You all have my sympathies.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t believe they were using pictures from 2014.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I don’t believe they were using pictures from 2014.

They were. They admitted it and printed corrections. Something Trumpanzees never do.

It’s a very minor quibble to distract from the disgrace.

The Trump administration deliberately ramped up prosecutions and family separations to create a crisis and spread fear on both sides of the border. It’s low-key terrorism.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Some pics, yes, I heard. It hurts the media’s credit, but doesn’t change the facts. I, personally, never based my opinions on any photos. It was me thinking about how “l” would have felt, if separated from my parents in such a way. I would have been traumatized, and probably permanently damaged. It’s a monstrous act, and another example of how low the right has sunk. Pathetic.

Yeah. The bad people are coming from Mexico? Nope. They are right here in America.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’ll look into it @Call_Me_Jay. If it comes from you it’s legit.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I found this so far. I’ve never seen this picture before.

This. I think I may have seen this one attributed to Trump. It didn’t really strike me as outrageous, though. They are fed and clothed, kept clean and cool, far better off than if they were walking through the desert in June temperatures and were there only until the could be placed with family or foster families.

Knowing the media’s penchant for hysteria, I actually researched many of the pictures that were displayed. This one for example…it’s cute and heart breaking, right? And misleading. The baby sees his mum out there just can’t figure out how to get to her at the moment….this “cage” only had 3 sides.

At any rate, we really, really had a problem with kids being torn from their families, which is NOT the same as making it over the border by themselves.

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