Social Question

SaganRitual's avatar

Born within US borders, what gives me (and you) the right to turn away people born outside US borders?

Asked by SaganRitual (2067points) June 12th, 2019

You almost certainly didn’t earn your citizenship. Even if you’ve served in the military or the police, you earned your citizenship as an adult; you got a lucky break, being born here, through no virtue of your own. Where do we get the idea that we can tell people they’re not allowed to come here?

Whatever mechanism it is that gives us that right, why didn’t it give the North American aboriginals the right to keep our forebears out? How is this not a grotesque double-standard?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

47 Answers

hmmmmmm's avatar

The US has zero right to talk about borders. We don’t respect borders or sovereignty, so any discussion of borders and keeping people out is obscene. The people that are seeking to cross the US border are the very victims of US foreign policy. It’s really that simple.

Patty_Melt's avatar

People have a home before their children are born, but those children have as much right to say they don’t want you in their house.

Even homeless shelters and soup lines have to turn people away when there are too many.

Our current issue is not whether to allow immigrants to move here, but how many, and by what means.

The government is currently trying to figure out what to do with tens of thousands of children who came all alone, with no adults at all. They have to find temporary and long term housing for them.
Would you rather the time and resources go instead to adults who have been here before, we’re arrested, and deported?
When people cross the border undocumented, many of them are just that, deported criminals, most with multiple returns.
There HAS to be prioritization.

elbanditoroso's avatar

The legal answer is “laws regarding US boundaries”.

It is ridiculous to say that countries don’t have the right to declare their own borders. Borders and boundaries are historical – Greece/Sparta, Gaul, Hadrian’s Wall, Roman Empire, and so on. And any country that exists, by extension, has the sovereign right to make and controls its own borders.

What I think @SaganRitual is asking is “what gives Trump or anyone else the right to enforce the border rules?”. And I go back to the answer – the sovereignty of the US (or any other country.

In this I agree with @Patty_Melt – there have to be limits and regulation and prioritization.

All of that said, the Trump administration as completely screwed things up. They could have taken a problem-solving approach and reduced the incentive for people to flee their South and Central American countries. Trump took the opposite approach: be confrontational and use your fist, and make a lot of noise.

That makes for nice headlines, but it doesn’t begin to solve any of the problems.

Bottom line: Trump has the right to to what he has done because he is the leader of this country. But he has done it incredibly ham-handedly.

JLeslie's avatar

I think almost everyone agrees it was horrible what the Europeans did to the Native Americans.

Time passes, battles are won, land is purchased, and countries are formed. It’s imperfect. New wars happen, borders change, countries get renamed.

Countries have the right to defend and protect their borders, it’s that simple.

In almost all of the countries that make up The Americas we have birthright citizenship, and so what makes us worthy of being citizens of the country we are born is the law of that country. The law, the courage and perseverance of our ancestors, and the luck of the accident of birth on this land.

Even people who are citizens because of blood right citizenship didn’t do anything except be born to a parent or parents who were citizens of the country. Unless, you are the immigrant yourself, and actively did something to become a citizen of a country of your choosing.

Until the world changes and we become one world, borders and citizenship are how it is.

It will get worse. Climate change is going to create a lot of migration and it will be difficult. Migration within countries and to other countries.

gondwanalon's avatar

Because we can. Just like many other countries like Australia, New Caledonia, Austria, Hungary, Syria, China, etc, etc, etc.

seawulf575's avatar

It’s called LAW. Right or wrong, we have laws in this country….just like in every civilized place. Even the aboriginals had laws. They would keep other groups our of their territory. And make no mistake, we didn’t ask nicely for this land and they didn’t give it freely. It was taken by force. Again…right or wrong. But that chapter of our story is several hundred years in the past. And it looks just like a chapter out of many countries’ stories. So now we have this nation and we have laws for entering out nation.

Patty_Melt's avatar

Even though North American natives did not believe in land ownership, they did observe land occupancy and borders. So, even before Europeans intruded themselves upon us, there were boundaries and skirmishes over land and power.
There is just nothing new about it or wrong.
Even if we became a friendly global community, we would still have territories and borders. Without them, everyone in undesirable locations would immediately pack up and move to areas with the best natural resources, and it would be like a locust plague.

Jaxk's avatar

What happened to the native Americans was a travesty but if you look realistically, it was the result of uncontrolled immigration. It seems ridiculous to use that example to let the whole process start again. I would agree that saying we stole this land fair and square, is a bit hypocritical but we can’t undo history and we have to start from where we are. Repeating the failures of the past won’t bring a better outcome. Immigration is a good thing but uncontrolled immigration is a disaster.

MrGrimm888's avatar

So… Two wrongs, make a right….

America, and indeed almost all other countries, were gained by conquest. NOT immigration…
America was taken by force. But that was just a foundation. Upon which immigrants made up every single brick that made it what it is today. Those immigrants came to America, with the EXACT same goal as any who try to come her today. To attempt to paint them in any other way, is hypocritical, and willfully dishonest.

Law, like history, is written by the winners. That doesn’t make either excusable, or ethical…

Rights, are a human concept. A concept that would vanish, as soon as the human species would…

kritiper's avatar

No point in allowing yourself to be overrun. And I was here first.
There was a time when people were few and land/area/resources was/were abundant, but those days are gone…

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Negative. There is still plenty of everything. The technologies already exist, to make it all work out. There is a way. But currently, no will…

Currently, humanity is not able to coexist. Once that obstacle is overcome, there will be no limit to our potential. We already coexist in small groups. Which means that we can learn to coexist as a much larger group. As a species… But it would mean that there couldn’t be an elite 1%, that are the biggest obstacle. There are people who would gladly watch billions die with nothing, whilst their chosen few would live with an overabundance…

KNOWITALL's avatar

Well my family are mostly card-carrying Cherokee’s so I’d say no one will ever tell me I don’t belong here. The rest of my family have been in wars here from the beginning, too, so to me their blood also earned me my place and my rights.

As far as illegal immigration, I know a lot of people who came here legally. Illegal immigrants don’t get to skip the rules and go to the front of the line just because you liberals say so.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^And being as no liberals, have ever said so, there should be no problem….

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“As far as illegal immigration, I know a lot of people who came here legally. Illegal immigrants don’t get to skip the rules and go to the front of the line just because you liberals say so.”

Source pleeeze @KNOWITALL

KNOWITALL's avatar

Sanctuary cities you guys, that’s all they are.

Sanctuary city refers to municipal jurisdictions, typically in North America and Western Europe, that limit their cooperation with the national government’s effort to enforce immigration law.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

^^^Your quote @KNOWITALL are you going to retact it now ? ? ^^^

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie you are amazing. @KNOWITALL voiced an opinion, apparently one you don’t like, so you scramble to ask her for a source. How about…um…Her? Since it is HER opinion?

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL I would agree with your view. Any time that the left defends letting illegals into this country (which is all the time), or any time they rage against any efforts to reduce or stop the tide of illegals, they are pushing to bypass the legal immigration process. I have had this discussion ad nauseum on these pages and have actually had libbies defending the idea of these poor people paying thousands to a coyote to get them illegally into this country rather than spending $190 for a visa application. It is amazing. And when you call them on it, they tell you that none of them ever supports illegal immigrants. Battle away with them if you like, but understand that as soon as you make sense, they will panic and go into denial and try changing the topic or challenging your opinions…asking for proof.

Patty_Melt's avatar

@Jaxk, I guess I didn’t express myself well enough. I was trying to make the same statement.
Having borders is okay. Native tribes fought often over hunting grounds, fishing locations and more. Most tribes were cool about observing tribal claims, but some jumped borders.

However, the really big invasion was the immigration of WASPs.
And that led to mass extermination.

Borders will always be needed.

kritiper's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Continuing on as we have, always assuming that there is plenty of everything for everybody, it would be a short time before we discovered the folly of our ways. Best to cut our losses while we can and stop the influx. Not doing so would be like shooting ourselves in both feet while claiming that there is no problem because we know what we’re doing.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 Yes, I know, it just drives me crazy.

I have posted links to official sites, local news, news from all over the US and still it’s all okay, seems like.

TBH, I never know wth Willie’s on about. You know those Masons…lol.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I have not read a single post, on any thread, where any jelly has supported illegal immigration. Most, just want them to have a chance to become a legal citizen, and not be treated like animals in the process.

The closest thing to support, I suppose, would be supporting people who have been here for decades already, and/or the “dreamers.” Those people are already parts of their respective communities, and are not “nation destroying, criminals,” as the right likes to portray them as…

I have opined that the “criminal” elements of the illegal population, are less of a threat than the US’s own criminal element. Not a hard position to defend, when the US has one of the highest incarceration rates, amongst first world countries…

Some reading and comprehension, of “liberal” posts, would do wonders for our right-wing jellies…

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t see the connection; but most of your posts don’t have a connection to the topic!

Just giving your opinion and implying it is a quote from a valid source.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I remember several posts from you on this subject as we are diametrically in opposition on this particular subject. And I don’t have any issue with legal immigrants, so I’m going to say that I believe you are incorrect.

No one wants them treated like animals, not the left or the right, we simply want them to stop coming in and want Dems to stop helping them get in illegally or violate Federal law in sanctuary cities.

So white population is in decline, as we all know, so I’m sure that will change or is changing. From the stats I read, yes many are white, the majority on death row are black, I mean, what’s your point? If most of the population is white, surely most criminals are white, right?

Reading and comprehension levels…are you even serious? Trust me, you don’t want to go there with me, bubba, you’ll get spanked (and not like it…lol)

@Tropical_Willie The entire point was my opinion. I didn’t imply it was a quote.

Speaking of reading and comprehension @MrGrimm888…’s a test case for you…lol

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Do you actually hear what you are shoveling? “I have not read a single post, on any thread, where any jelly has supported illegal immigration. Most, just want them to have a chance to become a legal citizen, and not be treated like animals in the process.” Yeah, you’re not supporting illegal immigration, you just want them to have a chance to become a legal citizen and not be treated like animals in the process. So what…they show up and if we catch them sneaking into our country we should offer them citizenship? Yeah…that doesn’t sound like support.
Maybe you don’t comment in the same threads as I do, but let me tell you, there are many jellies on here that have blown me crap because I say that we need to take action to stop the influx of illegals, when I point out that applying for a visa the official way is cheaper and safer than dragging your kids 2500 miles on a perilous journey. You know what comments like that get me? That I am irrational, that I am heartless, that I have no compassion for the poor. If I say that more than just poor people come to this country, I get denials that criminals are a problem or that drugs are pouring across the border and I’m just a white nationalist and a xenophobe.
You haven’t read a single post like this because you cannot psychologically admit they are there. Let me point out a couple comments from this thread:

“The people that are seeking to cross the US border are the very victims of US foreign policy. It’s really that simple.”

“Upon which immigrants made up every single brick that made it what it is today. Those immigrants came to America, with the EXACT same goal as any who try to come her today. To attempt to paint them in any other way, is hypocritical, and willfully dishonest.” Oh wait…that was you.

”@KNOWITALL I don’t see the connection; but most of your posts don’t have a connection to the topic!

Just giving your opinion and implying it is a quote from a valid source.” That one is particularly funny since nowhere did anyone “quote” anything or imply it was from a valid source. But that is the sort of thing I am talking about. An opinion against illegal immigrants was given and a liberal’s head about exploded trying to discredit it.

I suggest you step back and take a deep breath and look with honest eyes at the crap the left has been shoveling.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Even when you quote me, there is no support for illegal immigration. Am I missing something?
So. You’ve proven that you can read, or copy and paste… Where’s the “comprehension” part?... Where do I say I want them here illegally?... Nowhere…
You simply reposted my support for their reasons, for seeking asylum, and/or better lives. No mention of me saying waive them all in, without vetting.

When you speak of the “official way,” you seem to lack understanding that they are legally allowed to simply show up, and request asylum. That’s officially legal...

And as we all know, that you declare that the law, is important, what are you shoveling?..

Your last two quotes provided, I assume you know, weren’t from me…So, I’ll let that jelly defend their words.

@KNOWITALL . “we simply want them to stop coming in.”..
I know. I read what you posted, and comprehend that you don’t want them here… Did I fail to comprehend your words?..

I’m a big boy. Maybe I need a spanking. But I feel like if you could have provided that, you would have. I’m sure that you can find something.
Bring it on, and I will concede where you prove your case…

As far as your paragraph pertaining to the race of inmates, I do fail to comprehend the relevance to our current discussion. Perhaps you could clarify that part. Then I can respond.

Regarding “sanctuary cities.”

Trump, has already attacked “sanctuary cities,” and has been knocked back by the law. Many such cities , that have populations of “nation destroyers,” seem like they respect those people’s places in their communities, enough to stand up for them. Doesn’t seem like the people who actually know these immigrants, think they are bad people, does it? Seems like they are protecting people they view as good people… Well. That’s what I comprehend…

seawulf575's avatar

^Yep, showing up and requesting asylum is a legal way to do it. You do understand what that means, right? The burden of proof of the need of asylum is on the immigrant, not the other way around. We are not obliged to let them into this country just because they say they want to come in. Asylum, which you libs love to throw around, has some very specific criteria that isn’t really as easy to establish…you have to prove you are in fear for your life due to persecution because of your politics, religion, or because you belong to a specific group. I’m poor and I want to move somewhere doesn’t qualify. Additionally, many of these people were offered asylum in Mexico, and they turned it down. So that doesn’t help their case either. But let me ask you, since you opened the door on asylum, where was the outrage when Obama rejected the pleas of asylum from Iraqi Christians that were being persecuted? enslaved, tortured, and killed in their homelands? Yeah, he deported their asses right back to where they could be killed. Yet you on the left defended that, as well.

And as for reading comprehension, you might want to re-read those quotes. Every one of them shows support for the illegals. They are victims, anyone that opposes illegal immigration is a hypocrite, a dodge about an opinion of illegal immigrants that the reader didn’t like….every one of them supports illegal immigrants and castigates anyone that opposes it. But why am I even trying? You lack the psychological ability to see an opposing view point yourself.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Asylum seeking is what the majority of the issue is. So. It isn’t “thrown around.”
Seeking citizenship, is also legal.
Vetting does occur, and some won’t get through. That’s not the issue. Trump wants them turned away at the border, before any legal process. He’s said as much, and has tried hard to implement the illegal strategy.

As far as Iraqi Christians go, and Obama, I concede that I do see some similarities. Some… I wish we had vetted them, and had taken in whomever passed the criteria.
At least Obama didn’t ban billions, from even being able to come here. Your statement italicized the word were, in regards to hardships. Indicating that you either don’t understand that these people from the south are facing similar strife, or that you don’t care… I have no doubt that, although you use this as a knock on Obama, you fully supported his actions, in that matter. So now, you have exposed your hypocrisy, once again. By supporting your Anti-Christ, Barry-O…

Reading comprehension.

I have no need, to reread my own quotes. The quotes you provided meant exactly what I meant them to say, and despite you’re denial, they have ZERO inference of simply letting them all in. All they prove, is what I had already tried to explain. I have sympathy for their plight, and would like for them to have the same chance to be a citizen, that your ancestors had.

The reason why you constantly miss the point, is because you see them all as bad people. You are the one calling them nation destroyers. I have absolute clarity, in regards to understanding your viewpoint. But your viewpoint is skewed by hypocrisy, nationalism, and xenophobia. So. I will call you out on it. It is you sir, that is too cowardly to admit your motivation for your views… And you’re not alone. Your declared logic, has more holes than a screen door. That is where the castigating comes in. Your only consistency in caring about law, is when it fits your own agenda. You aren’t concerned about border security. You’re concerned about brown people, with a different culture than yours entering the US. That motive has been repeatedly exposed, and denying it is a futile endeavor, which you never grow tired of trying to hide from.

I want the best, for all mankind. You want the best, for just your kind. There in lies our difference.

If we were debating on which pizza toppings are the best, you would receive no scrutiny. It is not a difference in opinion, that draws you scorn. It is the fact that real people’s lives are affected by your views in regards to immigration. So you can stop crying about this being a difference in opinion issue.

You’re sticking up, for what you believe is right. Protecting your culture, and your race’s majority in the US.

I’m sticking up, for people who need help. And I could care less about the US being majority white, or of Christian/European culture. The USA, is a melting pot. Immigrants have been, and will continue to be, an asset. Just as in genetics, diversity is a proven strength…

seawulf575's avatar

Asylum seeking is the scam these hordes of people are using…it isn’t the issue. If they were legitimately fleeing for their lives from persecution and they were offered asylum in Mexico, they would take it. They aren’t fleeing for their lives from persecution. Tell you what…you tell me how they are being persecuted. And remember, persecution means they are being singled out because of something…their religion, their politics, the tribe they belong to…something. Being poor is not persecution. And you comparing the plight of the Iraqi Christians to the people marching on our southern border is just idiotic. When you answer the question of what our southern marchers are being persecuted and what that persecution looks like, you will see how disingenuous your statement is.
Reading comprehension:
So now you acknowledge at least one of those quotes was yours? You denied it in your previous statement. Amazing. You can’t even recognize your own words when I tell you they came from you. But at least you did finally get around to owning them. And they make my point perfectly. Thanks. That’s progress. Now you just have to understand what you are saying.
And then we get into the personal attacks. Let’s review:
” see them all as bad people” That is your opinion, but is not mine. I do not see them as all being bad people, but they are foolish and I do see every one of them as blatantly trying to violate our laws. That is not a good way to start your move towards becoming a citizen of a country. But when you throw out an opinion such as that and ascribe it to me, it allows you to pile on which gets us back into the liberal way of branding anyone that disagrees with them with titles designed to embarrass that person and shut them up. You should know by now it doesn’t work with me, but I will take those opportunities to show how misguided you are.
” I have absolute clarity, in regards to understanding your viewpoint” No, I don’t believe you do. Your previous statement proves that…you create a viewpoint and say it is mine. That isn’t total clarity. If you did understand my view, we could have rational discussions about topics and you could debate the points of my view without having to resort to name calling and label making or making up views for me.
“But your viewpoint is skewed by hypocrisy, nationalism, and xenophobia.” and there is the liberal “game over”. When confronted by opinions about illegal immigrants you don’t like, but can’t really debate, you fall into label making and name calling. And what really kills me is the middle one…nationalism. What exactly is nationalism? The belief that we should have a country and not be part of a one world government? Yep…that’s me. But then that makes you the one world government drone. Hope you’re comfortable with that position.
” I will call you out on it. It is you sir, that is too cowardly to admit your motivation for your views… And you’re not alone.” Again…I don’t admit to my “motivations” because the “motivations” you ascribe to me are not mine. They are the ones you made up for me and accepted as fact. And I’m sure I’m not alone…I am in the group of people that disagree with your point of view since that is how you see anyone that disagrees with you.
” You aren’t concerned about border security. You’re concerned about brown people, with a different culture than yours entering the US. That motive has been repeatedly exposed, and denying it is a futile endeavor, which you never grow tired of trying to hide from.” Again, you are ascribing an opinion to me that isn’t mine and then trying to deal with it as fact. I have no problem with “brown” people. Of course that is the current racist term the left uses. I have repeatedly suggested they follow the laws of our country to enter…apply for visas, apply for citizenship…follow the process. I have no problem at all with that. AND I hold that view for people of all colors. I do have a problem with people of all color violating our laws to enter our country.
“I want the best, for all mankind.” I find this one interesting. There is a lot here that isn’t clear. What is “best” for all mankind? Is it really “all” mankind or just people that you and other libs feel could best benefit you politically? I mean, there are a lot of criminals (violent ones) coming across our southern border. Repeatedly in some cases. There are tons of drugs pouring in as well. Not just marijuana, but real life ruining type drugs. Those drugs destroy millions of lives, and not just the lives of the users. They impact the families of those users. They impact the lives of people who have things stolen from them by the users so they can support their habits. And the harmless people that are marching here are undertaking a dreadfully hazardous journey. There are rapes and murders, human trafficking, extortion and all sorts of other dangers along the way. They are bringing their children as well (to help them garner sympathy at the border) and those children are being subjected to those hazards as well. So do all these people fall into the “all mankind” category? If so, how do you justify that in your mind?
“Protecting your culture, and your race’s majority in the US.” Okay…here’s the challenge. Show me one statement I have ever made where I have said anything about my culture or my race as being an issue in this discussion. You won’t be able to find it, because it doesn’t exist. Again…you ascribe an opinion to me and then try to treat it as fact…without any supporting REAL facts to back it up. In fact, it is always the liberals that make everything about race. EVERY time there is a discussion, you will see it is the liberals that try to make it about race.

MrGrimm888's avatar

The people coming from civil wars, and the like, are rightly afraid for their lives. I’ll let you research it, because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about… There are cartel wars in Mexico, so why stop there? Heads on the streets, and mass burial sites abound in it’s northern cities. You’ll apparently need to read up on that as well. These people are drowning, and America is just the only life raft within realistic distance. They bring their children, because they love their children. Duh…

In your first post that included four quotes, two were mine. The other two were from a different jelly; @Tropical_Willie (Back to reading and comprehension…) And I owned both of my quotes. Quotes where couldn’t find what you wanted, but posted anyways, in an attempt to add inference which isn’t there…

As far as your viewpoints, I repeat that you have been exposed in almost every single thread, as having all of the traits I listed. And yes, as predicted, you continue to cower from your own obvious motivations. You have galvanized my every opinion of you, repeatedly in many posts.
I have stood solid with my opinions, and my motivations for having them.
You’re just ashamed of yours. And you should be…

So. Cry. Cry, and moan about liberals . Of which I am not one…
But you feel comfortable lumping me in, so whatever. I’ve been accused of worse…

Take the subject into whatever area you please. You cannot hide, or deflect from your feelings. Like you loving Obama, for deporting those Iraqi Christians…

I have gotten you to jump through every hoop, that I needed for you to expose your true opinions, and you have never failed. In fact. Often, your long diatribes, simply overexpose yourself. Your tangled web, has caught but only yourself…

I am COMPLETELY satisfied with my articulation of my opinions, and with the exposure of your veiled motivations.

My only question is, why spend so much time declaring your shameful thinking, just to turn around and spend more time acting like you didn’t?

But. It’s your time. Spend it, however you like…

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Can I give you 10 more GA’s @MrGrimm888 Someone does care about truth or research just biased opinions.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I’m not seeking GA’s, but thanks.

I’m sick of Trumpers pissing in everyone’s pockets, and telling them it’s raining. They should at least have the courage to own their motivations. They want to be evil, but don’t want to be perceived as such… Cowards…

MrGrimm888's avatar

I feel that I should make a declaration here.
On threads unrelated to politics, I find @seawulf575 to be a thoughtful, and intelligent person. He has helped me with some questions about religion, and in the occasions he offers advice to others, he seems to know what he’s talking about, and seems compassionate, and resourceful.

He is a valuable asset to the pond, and I would like to make sure that I give him that credit.

I am very passionate about certain subjects, as is he. As a result, I can easily see he and others mistaking me for hating him, and/or being mean. It’s actually the opposite. It is the fact that I do find him intelligent, and an overall good man, that I am stuck on trying to convince him to change his opinions on certain things to what I consider right.

But I know that just because I think it’s right, doesn’t make me right. And I applaud his ability to endure my rantings, and scrutiny, and to stick with his views with seemingly equal passion as mine.

I am no saint. I am certainly no better, than any other jelly here. And ,again , I would like to pay tribute, and respect to the savy submariner @seawulf575 ...

I concede that I sometimes wish I had articulated my opinions, in a less offensive way. But my passion gets the better of me. This thread’s topic, is especially a sore subject to me. I have essentially been a refugee myself, after losing everything to multiple floods, and have endured homelessness, and hopelessness. I am only in my new house, and alive at all, because of the help that others extended to me. Over a 2–3 year period, I slept on many a friend’s couch (I have a bed now finally, but I can’t sleep on it, I can only sleep on couches now…) I was given food, clothing, furniture, and love, by many people. I guess I feel like all of these immigrants, are just like I was. Caught up in circumstances, that are beyond their control, and not looking for a “hand out” but a “hand up.” I realize that that is not accurate, in all of their cases… But I believe that it is, in most…

Anyways. I hope for continued, heated debate, in the future. Pissing people off, is my preferred way, of getting a good, deep response from other jellies. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t respect and/or value them.

Peace n love.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You are completely satisfied with the articulation of your opinions? Okay, let’s see what you are satisfied with. I’ll take your most recent opinion.
“The people coming from civil wars, and the like, are rightly afraid for their lives. I’ll let you research it, because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about… There are cartel wars in Mexico, so why stop there? Heads on the streets, and mass burial sites abound in it’s northern cities.”

There is so much fodder here it is silly. let’s start with the civil wars

that shows there hasn’t been anything close to a civil war in Central America in more than 20 years. Most of the “refugees” we are seeing today were either not born or were very tiny children at the time. Sorry…that claim is crap. But let’s move on to the rest of your claims. Cartel wars. Okay, I guess, if you are suggesting that a cartel member was seeking asylum because he was being persecuted for being a member of a rival cartel. But then you would be suggesting we should accept known criminals into our country. Is that what you are suggesting? The rest is most definitely criminal activity. But that is where you dropped the ball. The key to asylum is that you have to prove YOU are being persecuted because of something YOU are associated with. For example…in Iraq, Christians were being systematically hunted down and either enslaved or killed for the crime of being a Christian. What is it that all these people we are seeing now being persecuted for? You haven’t even come close to identifying that. But that is what you are satisfied with…a dodge. Typical.

MrGrimm888's avatar

It was my word choice, to use “civil wars.” I’m not sure how else to define what is happening in some Central, and South American countries. People are killing each other, a lot. El Salvador has one of the highest murder rates in the world. I heard they were number 1, but couldn’t find a reputable source, in a hasty search…
The stories I have heard on NPR suggest that people are indeed being hunted down, and killed. Especially young men, who won’t claim sides in whatever we want to call is going on down there (since we are comfortable not calling it civil war. )
I also did a hasty search on the criteria for seeking asylum, and found nothing about proof of your life being in danger. At least as far as a note from your local gangs, or military, saying “we want this guy dead. ” With “proof” being the only way in, there would be almost zero qualifiers, so I’ll assume that either you are wrong about the type of proof, or that proof isn’t required, if people are coming from a place with known widespread violence, or life threatening issues.

I find it relevant to add, that lack of “civil war, ” only covers half of the argument though. The US, has a legal obligation to process people requesting asylum, regardless of if they will meet the criteria required to receive asylum. This goes back to the fact that Trump is trying to deny the immigrants that process. That is illegal.

Cartel wars are 100% real, and people who are not in cartels are affected by the wars. Especially, in northern Mexico. I will point you again, to do your own research, in this matter. Sources range from FOX news, to National Geographic, and everywhere in between. So, it shouldn’t be hard. In fact, it should be hard to prove that the cartel wars aren’t resulting in thousands of deaths, some even in southern Texas, to southern California. Travel warnings have been issued off/on for parts of northern Mexico, for months, to years. Trumpers, like to say that MS-13 members, are part of the “nation destroying army.” I suggest you begin your research on the cartel violence, with the Mexican Mafia.
As my statement had nothing to do with rival cartel members, seeking asylum, I won’t address that part of your argument.

This is about people fleeing places, where they fear for their lives, and those of their children’s . Again, if you’re fleeing such violence, why would you stop in Mexico? ...

Iraqi Christians. Every single religious group, is susceptible to systematic killing, in the ME. In the cases of those from our South/Central American countries, their religious beliefs, are not relevant to being targets of violence.

Persecution, is not why people are fleeing their homelands, to try to enter America’s southern border. They are fleeing violence. You, and your ilk, are the ones that are persecuting them….

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You said civil war. There are no civil wars. You were lying…just like Trump lies. Now you are trying to say it is just violence. But again, it is a typical dodge.
As for the rest, you obviously TRY to avoid actually going to the law as they are the facts. Here, let me help:

If you look at 8 USC 1158(b)(1)(B) you will find how the actual burden of proof is laid on the applicant (the immigrant) to prove they are indeed a refugee from persecution. Persecution is sort of laid out in this point, but it does reference back to definitions for “Refugee” To save time, I have cut/pasted it here:

”(42) The term “refugee” means (A) any person who is outside any country of such person’s nationality or, in the case of a person having no nationality, is outside any country in which such person last habitually resided, and who is unable or unwilling to return to, and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of, that country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, or (B) in such special circumstances as the President after appropriate consultation (as defined in section 1157(e) of this title) may specify, any person who is within the country of such person’s nationality or, in the case of a person having no nationality, within the country in which such person is habitually residing, and who is persecuted or who has a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. The term “refugee” does not include any person who ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in the persecution of any person on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. For purposes of determinations under this chapter, a person who has been forced to abort a pregnancy or to undergo involuntary sterilization, or who has been persecuted for failure or refusal to undergo such a procedure or for other resistance to a coercive population control program, shall be deemed to have been persecuted on account of political opinion, and a person who has a well founded fear that he or she will be forced to undergo such a procedure or subject to persecution for such failure, refusal, or resistance shall be deemed to have a well founded fear of persecution on account of political opinion.”

Now I understand how actually looking something up and finding the facts would kill your fantasy world, but there it is. I have backed up my statements. I have yet to see you back yours.

And while your fantasy needs a villian like me (and my ilk) as the persecutors, you are basing that on absolutely nothing. I have said we need to follow the laws. You agreed and thought you had me by saying asylum is the law. But you were going on liberal talking points that have time and again been proven to be incorrect. I have shown you the actual laws and how asylum is established. Violence in your homeland is not enough…it is police matters. Unless the immigrant can show they are specifically being targeted for some specific reason, they are not eligible for asylum. And as you have just said…almost zero of them would be eligible.

MrGrimm888's avatar

The only thing you “backed up,” was a definition of a refugee….

The “actual laws,” have largely prevented Trump from implementation of his agenda. So… Regardless of your, or my interpretation of immigration laws, they still have the right, under our laws, to aply for asylum. A law, that Trump has repeatedly attempted to break…

seawulf575's avatar

Sorry, sir. You brought up asylum as being “the majority of the issue”. I pointed out it was a scam because most of the people claiming it don’t meet the criteria. I even gave you a link to the law that tells how asylum works. You obviously avoided reading it because if you did, you wouldn’t make such a silly statement as “The only thing you “backed up,” was a definition of a refugee….” I backed up how asylum works. Part of that was a definition of “refugee” since that is what these people would be claiming they are. You have given examples of how there is violence in their homelands, but have failed to show anything that might be persecution which is the key to asylum. In other words, to put it plainly, you are wrong.
It is plain to me that you are brainwashed. You avoid looking at facts that might burst your fantasy bubble. You try dodging discussions that might show how out to lunch your thoughts are. You claim you are not a liberal, yet you act and think and respond just like one.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Most are asylum seekers. Trump is trying to break the law.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You have lost the argument, because @seawulf575 knows Trump broke and agrees with Trump continuing to break the law and ignore the Constitution.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^That is the only point, I can discern….

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Is this still going on? Geesh.

nah, I don’t care enough to go back through your posts to quote you.

You said something about the criminal element in prisons being white (in the US.)
Sure, white people are still the predominant race here, so that’s common sense.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I never mentioned white people in prison…. You brought it up, at one point. Probably just a simple mistake.
That’s easy to understand, as this thread has been all over the place, and many posts are very long, and drawn out…

“Is this still going on?”

It probably shouldn’t be. The thread, has definitely run its course. @seawulf575 , and I, are too hard headed to let it go.


KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 :) I’m having a rainy, mellow Monday. Peace out.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I hope you enjoy your mellow day :)

Patty_Melt's avatar

Okay, quick cut answer to the question, minus the details segment…
Because we have big, loud guns

Response moderated (Spam)

Answer this question




to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther