General Question

seawulf575's avatar

If Trump's legal efforts are successful and he ends up voiding enough Biden votes to make himself the winner of the election, what will you think?

Asked by seawulf575 (11662points) 1 week ago

Outside of hating Trump, what would a legal decision like this make you think? Would it be justified? Would it be a sign there was, indeed, voter fraud (including vote counting) in a big way? Or would your response be more that Trump cheated somehow?

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53 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

If there was indeed voter fraud, then I would be fine with it.
If it was due to some technicality that valid votes were discarded and drumpf is appointed president, then that I would consider a stolen election.

The real question is, if drumpfs lawsuits are dismissed and unsuccessful as expected, will you finally accept biden’s win, or will you make up excuses again, that the fraud was too well hidden, or that the judges were biased or part of the deep state conspiracy?

stanleybmanly's avatar

I will think I’m hallucinating. The odds are better for winning the lottery, and I don’t have a ticket.

zenvelo's avatar

It depends, as @ragingloli points out, if there is real evidence of something nefarious, or if it is a repeat of 2000 where the courts overrode the will of the people.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So far the the Trump camp’s reasoning for a lawsuit is the “Trump lost”, not a valid reason.

Kropotkin's avatar

I’d probably think it’s the funniest thing ever.

SEKA's avatar

trump has been a cheater his entire life and he has discovered a better way to cheat once again

Jeruba's avatar

From an article by Paul Waldman, in The Week, December 6, 2017.

Quoting Billy Bush: When “I called him out for inflating his ratings” on The Apprentice, the future president replied, “People will just believe you. You just tell them and they believe you.”

At that moment, it might have seemed like the sentiment of an amoral sociopath, one who had learned from long experience that if you’re rich enough and brazen enough, you can get away with behavior that ordinary people feel qualms about. But it would also turn out to be a profound insight into contemporary politics, one that the Republican Party has now adopted as one of its fundamental principles.

Not that the GOP was afraid to lie before it raised Trump up as its champion. But they’ve decided that they really can say anything, no matter how ridiculous, obviously false, or morally repellent it might be. People — or at least some people — will just believe them, and even change their own beliefs to match those of their political leaders.
...
There’s no point in even trying to make your argument persuasive, because persuading people who might not already be with you isn’t really the point. All you have to [do] is signal to your partisans: This is what we’re saying now, and yes I know it’s ridiculous, but just say it.

[Boldface added.]

The article also supplies examples. Note, this was three years ago.

https://theweek.com/articles/741495/trumps-unintentionally-profound-insight-into-american-politics

seawulf575's avatar

To all that would like to ensure there is actual evidence, keep in mind that he is going through courts so evidence will have to be presented. It will be all evidence based, not just random claims. I am hearing claims that they have actual evidence at this point, including witness depositions, but the proof is in the pudding. The curiosity I have is more concerning where it could/would lead. Would it just invalidate specific ballots? If it showed wide spread fraud, would it invalidate the entire state votes or possibly the entire election? Would anything happen to those that worked to perpetrate the fraud?

SEKA's avatar

“People will just believe you. You just tell them and they believe you.” Point proven.
I’m seeing another lie that will fail miserably in court and a man who doesn’t care what he is doing to this country in the meantime

seawulf575's avatar

@SEKA Isn’t that the same philosophy used by the Dems and their propagandist media with the Russia Gate fiasco? They had to violate the law to make anything even vaguely looking realistic, yet they told the same lie over and over and people (such as yourself) just believed them.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Isn’t it funny that your left wing “fact check” site ignores that there was a court order that over rode the one they are trying to use as a basis for their “false” claim? Maybe you aren’t aware of the actual events? When the GOP has to get a lawyer on the scene to get access and is still denied it, I’m sorry, Cruz is absolutely right. But it’s no surprise that Politifact didn’t give the whole story.

Inspired_2write's avatar

I think after witnessing Trumps behaviors that the whole World would not accept him in Office again.
He is untrustworthy, and a manipulator that he had encourage his followers to do the same.
If any voter fraud exists then it comes from Republican voters and or Trump.

Not too long ago recently was captured two Republican voters who tried to sabotage the voting process by planting registrations that of course was caught by authorities.

This shows that if they can’t win then they will stoop to mean dishonest measures.

This was on the News channels just when Biden was gaining momentum in the voting.

( I do not know where that video or news was reported in case anyone wants details?)
( Two Latino men where caught and they had guns in there car as well.)

seawulf575's avatar

@Inspired_2write The whole world has no say in it. And you are missing some important factors that would prove your views to be inaccurate or incomplete. The Peace accords in Bosnia and in the Middle East for example. He has been nominated 4 times for the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts in these things. So the whole world might not feel like you do.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575

Literally anyone who holds higher office in any country can nominate literally anyone for the Nobel Peace Prize. There’s no nomination committee and no objective criteria for it. Adolph Hitler was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. In Trump’s case it’s the same guy, a extreme right wing kook in the Norwegian parliament, that keeps nominating him.

Inspired_2write's avatar

@seawulf575
I would think that the truth will eventually come out and if the Courts are involved , it will be dismissed or shown.

chyna's avatar

If there WAS voter fraud, Mitch McConnell and a few other senators would not have won. The senate has more power than the president.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Fox News on Monday cut away from a press conference during which White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany accused Democrats of “welcoming” fraud and illegal voting.”

“She is charging that the other side is welcoming fraud and welcoming illegal voting. Unless she has more details to back that up, I can’t in good countenance continuing showing you this,” Fox News host Neil Cavuto said on air as the network cut away from the press conference in Washington, D.C.”

Jeruba's avatar

Thanks for that, @Call_Me_Jay. My capacity for astonishment has been severely eroded in recent times, or I might have managed a moment of stun.

I wish he’d said “in good conscience,” which is what I hope he meant: pertaining to a moral sense and not a facial appearance.

janbb's avatar

Maybe he confused the two and meant actually, “I can’t countenance continuing to show you this” which would make sense too.

i have the impression and it’s a vague one, that some at Fox News may be pulling away from the Trump train.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

@Jeruba Countenance is also a verb. He landed in between “in good conscience” and “I cannot countenance this display…”

transitive verb – to extend approval or toleration to : SANCTION

janbb's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay Share a Coke?

Actually, i heard on NPR today that the courts have already dismissed several challenges as frivolous. There may be one or two that are taken up but even if they prevail, i.e., if the votes received (because of mail delays – nudge, nudge, wink, wink) in PA after Election Day are thrown out, it will be so little as to not make any difference.

One reason I heard for these challenges besides the baby being a baby, is so that Republican legislatures have a reason to enact even more stringent voter suppression laws.

Jeruba's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay, yes, of course it is. But he didn’t use it that way.

seawulf575's avatar

@Darth_Algar And once again you are not correct. Laura Huhtasaari, Christian Tybring-Gjedde, Magnus Jacobsson, and David Flint (and 3 other law professors) were the 4 that nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace prize. Not just one guy over and over. Sorry….wrong again.

kritiper's avatar

I would think we all had entered The Twilight Zone. Literally!

Darth_Algar's avatar

@janbb “i have the impression and it’s a vague one, that some at Fox News may be pulling away from the Trump train.”

They are. Rupert Murdoch doesn’t view Trump as necessary to Fox News’ continuing success, so soon Trumpypoodle will lose his one mainstream safe harbor.

There may be some at Fox who continue to support Trump, but they may be just as likely to float over to some other network like OAN or some such (reported Sean Hannity is already reconsidering his contract at Fox).

Darth_Algar's avatar

@seawulf575

Congratulations. You found a tree yet missed the forest. Good for you.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

Fox sees the writing on the wall. They can make money as the opposition just as well as being de facto state media. It will take the writers a little time to adjust, but they will be back in the groove soon enough.

Response moderated
Caravanfan's avatar

@seawulf575 I saw you deftly sidestepped @ragingloli‘s question.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Bottom like is that pure political ideology matters less to Murdoch than, well, the bottom line. Whatever brings in the viewers – hence the conservative slant of Fox News and the slew of more liberal-leaning content on Fox Television.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

You don’t take something after it is given. I would be livid and/or embarrassed. I would cancel my cable subscription.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Sheer desperation, and last ditch machinations. Trump is going to have to prove massive voter fraud in at least 3 separate states. He will have first to convince a court that a case exists. Remember this is a man convinced before his first election that the only way he could lose was through cheating, a perfectly valid point of view from a man who’s dedicated the entirety of his life to cheating. Smoke, mirrors and overblown gutter rhetoric. If the rest of you choose to allow this nonsense to whip you up, you are worthy of the contempt those pushing this nonsense have regarding your judgement This will go the way of the rest of the fool’s pronouncements. I for one and am not one bit excited over these antics, and relish this vile idiot squirming in humiliation before the world. He would be pitiful were he less disgusting.

YARNLADY's avatar

I would seriously consider accepting the offer from my oldest son to join him in Ireland.

JLeslie's avatar

I would first want to know in what grounds. If I felt the court made a completely political decision I would seriously start thinking about plan B in case I need to leave the country. Not solely because Trump will be the president, but because the court, president, and congress might be so lined up that things could easily get terrible.

I have a friend right now who feels strongly Pennsylvania (PA) illegally counted voted. The way I understand it PA changed their cut off date for receiving ballots in October. Originally, the ballots needed to be received by election day, but then the courts allowed it to be changed to a few days after because of the USPS problems I guess. I asked a lawyer tonight, and he said usually the decision should be made by the legislature but since covid is an odd circumstance he felt it was be considered ok that the courts were used. That the voter should not be penalized if they did everything right and something out of their control delayed the ballots.

The lawyer I talked to cited a case that went to the supreme court though for the state of Wisconsin where Justice Kavanaugh ruled Wisconsin couldn’t couldn’t change voting laws, and Kavanaugh cited Vermont didn’t need to so I guess other states don’t need to? The Secretary of State for VT was pissed and demanded a correction be made because VT had made voting law changes due to covid. I found this article.

Not sure what to think.

I also don’t know if PA only counts the ballots that arrived be Election Day if Trump wins anyway? I couldn’t find it.

That whole thing about if you say it they will believe you. Of course a man who cheats knows that. That is exactly what cheating men do. It works for a while and then the people being lied to start to feel crazy and then something finally happens and they leave. It’s Cognitive Dissonance, people need to believe they are doing the right thing to live with themselves so they believe the lies, or need to believe they are doing the right thing, or making the right decisions, it is all part of the same thing.

rockfan's avatar

It would be the end of democracy as we know it.

Jeruba's avatar

I just read an article with this headline: “John Brennan: Patriots would invoke 25th Amendment to remove ‘corned cat’ Trump”
“Former CIA Director John Brennan said President Trump’s own top officials should consider invoking the 25th Amendment to remove him from office.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/john-brennan-patriots-would-invoke-25th-amendment-to-remove-corned-cat-trump/ar-BB1aQXa5

Preventing Trump from doing any more damage and pursuing a vindictive “scorched-earth” policy would be a service to the whole country and probably the world.

sadiesayit's avatar

None of Trump’s legal efforts hold water. His lawsuits are a rather naked attempt to sidestep the peoples’ decision. Given that, if he somehow gets the courts to change the election results, I would be scared. (And you should be, too).

I already find it concerning that so many citizens are willing to cheer on his anti-American-democracy shenanigans, even while I trust the country to withstand it. They are rooting against their own interests, and against one of the country’s founding principles…. very much a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Thank goodness he’s so inept at being the authoritarian he seems to want to be.

gorillapaws's avatar

I have no faith in our closed-sourced, outdated, proprietary voting machines that are easily hackable have no verifiable paper trail in some cases and are sold/managed by private companies—often with close political ties. They are by far the greatest risk to our democracy and should be replaced with an open-source solution with a paper backup.

I’m not aware of any legal challenges by the Trump campaign regarding the machines, as the focus is on counting mail-in ballots. I think all credible concerns of election fraud should be thoroughly investigated in a transparent manner with observers from all political parties able to validate and witness the process. Having confidence in the outcomes of elections is fundamental to a democracy.

It is my belief that these challenges are not being made in good faith, but rather as a political tactic. I don’t expect real evidence to materialize in any meaningful way. That said, I support a transparent investigation into credible complaints.

Response moderated (Spam)
seawulf575's avatar

@Caravanfan I didn’t side step anything. If he wants to ask his question he can do it on a different thread. Besides, that question has been asked already in several different ways.

chyna's avatar

@sadiesayit Your last sentence says it perfectly. Thank you.

ragingloli's avatar

Destroying democracy to own the libs.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I would be livid if fraud is proven. Either side interfering with the pepple’s choice is criminal. I hear a lot of specific details, saw signed witness statement, etc… So I’m just waiting for courts.

LostInParadise's avatar

I will worry about it if it actually happens, which I seriously doubt. The Trump team has already had a bunch of challenges thrown out of court for lack of evidence. I expect more of the same, throwing a bunch of Hail Mary passes in the hope that one may be caught. I go along with the opinion expressed in this NY Times op-ed.

Remember when Trump appointed a committee to look for fraud in the 2016 election? Maybe Trump was upset that Clinton got more votes than he did. The committee was eventually disbanded after coming up empty.

si3tech's avatar

The dawning of a new age. It is called truth and indeed justice. No vote fraud. No dead people voting. Truly the will of the people!

janbb's avatar

@si3tech Yes, I’m so happy that the Russians were not able to hack into machines as they did in 2016. Truly the will of the people has prevailed!

ragingloli's avatar

Here is a lawyer’s summary of drumpf’s lawsuits so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha7iWECm_8E&feature=youtu.be

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb just to clarify, the Russians never hacked voting machines in 2016. The extent of their “interference” was things like ads on Facebook.

Inspired_2write's avatar

@Jeruba
...“Brennan proposed the possibility that Vice President Mike Pence would get together with a majority of Cabinet officials to invoke Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, declaring the president unfit to perform his duties and giving his powers and duties to the vice president as acting president.” from your link.
I would then worry that Mike Pence may pardon Trump!
Is that the game that Trump is playing now?

ragingloli's avatar

I doubt it.
Drumpf is too vain to even pretend to be “unfit”, even as a charade.

Inspired_2write's avatar

@ragingloli
I wasn’t suggesting that Trump was acting. lol
Scary to realize that’s his reality playing out irascibly.
But remember that Trump isn’t above manipulation .

Zaku's avatar

Trump’s campaign is still spamming requests of money for “legal defense of the election”...

The fine print says that 60% goes to paying off Trump’s campaign debts, 40% goes to the Republican party, and only if/when they exceed the legal limits on donations, then they’ll use the rest for legal efforts.

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