General Question

crazyguy's avatar

Do you think the looting in Minneapolis has anything to do with Daunte?

Asked by crazyguy (2992points) 1 month ago

On Sunday and Monday, Minneapolis erupted in violence following the shooting of yet another black man by the racist police. However, if you look at the faces of the looters, you see nothing but greed. So my question is are they looting because of Daunte?

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121 Answers

mazingerz88's avatar

Yes. His getting killed by a cop specifically. And apparently…a racist cop as you have stated.

Btw, impressive skill identifying expressions like nothing but greed on people’s faces. Can you give lessons?

All I can do is smell racism and hate from social media posts.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Rather than the question “are the looters simply showing American entrepreneurship through seizing an opportunity”, why not ask “would the looting have occurred without the shooting”?

YARNLADY's avatar

Thugs/criminals are always thrilled when this happens. A reporter here, last year, overheard some guys yelling “Christmas came early” while looting an electronic store.

rebbel's avatar

No shooting (of, until proven guilty, innocent people), no looting (by thugs who await every opportunity to do their thuggery/thievery, and should (and will, one might expect, with all cctv around) be prosecuted).

canidmajor's avatar

The protesting is about the shooting. The looting is opportunistic crime that tends to happen under the cover of the protests. Looting also happens during power outs and extreme heat waves.
Opportunistic crimes happen during all sorts of circumstances.

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “However, if you look at the faces of the looters, you see nothing but greed.”

Says the guy who promotes greed as a legitimate economic system. Wrong people doing the taking, perhaps?

crazyguy's avatar

@canidmajor Even though we know almost for certain that looting and possibly arson will happen, society seems powerless to prevent it. Perhaps we need stronger laws; perhaps a shoot-on-sight order?

@rebbel The looting seems to be easy, and free of penalty. Even though the law provides for penalties, they are rarely imposed, because the looting is socially accepted.

@YARNLADY The other example I like to point out is the video clip of a BLM leader equating looting to reparations…

@mazingerz88 I do not have any special skills. Nothing that compares with the ability of CNN, MSNBC and others to spot voter suppression in the Georgia law…

hello321's avatar

@crazyguy: “Even though we know almost for certain that looting and possibly arson will happen, society seems powerless to prevent it.”

Maybe we can stop the state from killing people. That might help.

As usual, you’re upset with the predictable, reasonable results of a person being murdered by police. Again, you’re upset with the results. You’re not here trying to figure out how to make the police less of a terrorist organization. You’re not proposing disarming or defunding. You’re here to tell us that your eyes are leaking because looting is happening.

jca2's avatar

@crazyguy: __“Perhaps we need stronger laws; perhaps a shoot-on-sight order?“__

Are you serious?

canidmajor's avatar

@crazyguy So you think that we would live in a better society where we simply remove the judicial process altogether? “Just kill ‘em, think of the money we’ll save!”

Lordy, what an asinine idea. Toddler logic.

JLeslie's avatar

They are looting because of opportunity. They should arrest the looters. Do they not have plain clothed officers in protests and watching the streets? How hard is it?

I don’t understand why the cop even would draw a taser? What was Daunte doing that the officer felt that was necessary? Maybe I have not seen the full video. All I saw was the officer threatening to taser him and then she shoots and seems to be surprised she shot him. Are tasers the same color as guns? Seems like they should be neon orange so both police and lay people know if their is a gun drawn or not.

Police need to understand that a lot of Black people are afraid of police even more now than ten years ago after all of the BLM protesting and news coverage in the last several months. That doesn’t mean we should not be protesting, we should, there has to be change, we cannot let this issue just disappear until the next incident. Society must keep the pressure on for change.

I guess police always are on guard that they don’t know what they will find when they pull someone over, but officers have safety measures they can take during a traffic stop so their own life is not in much danger. This is crazy.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 @canidmajor When I see images of crazed, greedy people stealing stuff from a small mom-and-pop business, I realize they are not really protesting anything. They are just enriching themselves in ways that are obviously illegal.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I would suggest you watch the full video before weighing in.

JLeslie's avatar

Do you have the link? Wasn’t he just stopped for air freshener? The officer drew her gun mistakenly. That’s a big mistake.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie If you look further in this thread, you will see a link I posted.

jca2's avatar

@crazyguy: Crazed and greedy people stealing means the cops should be the Judge and Jury and just shoot on sight?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie The left-wing media have conveniently glossed over two critical facts about the incident.

1. Daunte was stopped for having expired license plates.
2. He had an outstanding arrest warrant against him for, get this, choking and robbing a woman at gunpoint.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I don’t see the link.

If there was an arrest warrant it does change the facts I had heard, but still, the officer made a big mistake drawing the wrong weapon. I heard she was training someone, did the trainee not notice the mistake also? I don’t know anything about tasers, are they a different color than guns? Aren’t they on the opposite side of the gun, the non dominate hand side of their belt?

jca2's avatar

@JLeslie: On the news, they said the taser doesn’t look like a gun and doesn’t feel like a gun.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 I guess since it is a high stress time during an arrest a police officer could make a mistake, but she was supposedly very experienced. I’m not so sure she even needed to draw a taser, let alone shoot it, did you see the whole video?

jca2's avatar

@JLeslie: I saw that Daunte was in the vehicle, not running on the street. Even if he was running, the force (shooting him) isn’t justified. Since he was in the vehicle, I don’t see what they shot him for.

hello321's avatar

^ Taser guidelines indicate that someone should not be tased while operating a motor vehicle. They should also not target chest. Duante was shot in the chest while operating a motor vehicle.

si3tech's avatar

Absolutely not! Not a thing!

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 @JLeslie You guys are discussing something you know nothing about. Here is a link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/police-release-bodycam-video-of-daunte-wright-shooting-110078533725

As you will see, Daunte was not inside the car. He was being handcuffed when he decided he would not be arrested without a fight. So he fought. I have no explanation for why the experienced police officer pulled out a handgun instead of a taser.

crazyguy's avatar

@si3tech Thank you. Exactly my opinion.

JLeslie's avatar

@hello321 Was he operating the vehicle? I thought he was stopped?

Edit: I just watched @crazyguy‘s clip and it is a different clip than I saw, it would be nice to see a full few minutes rather than 20 seconds here and 20 seconds there. Obviously, the news is manipulating the story. Depends what news you watch for the angle they want to promote.

hello321's avatar

@JLeslie: “Was he operating the vehicle? I thought he was stopped?”

He drove for “several blocks” before he crashed into another vehicle.

JLeslie's avatar

Here is a longer video. https://www.fox9.com/news/officer-who-shot-daunte-wright-grabbed-gun-instead-of-taser-bodycam-video-released He was out of the car being arrested, and then he jumped back in the car to try to get away. I don’t know if the car was on already when he was shot, he might have turned it on afterwards. If it was on, I don’t know if it was out of park already. Operating a vehicle does not mean sitting in a vehicle by my definition, that seems like Democrats maybe trying to pull at straws before we know the full story, because it is true that Democrats have left out that he had a warrant for his arrest and that is why he was being arrested. When people start with cherry picking facts everything falls apart once all facts come in, because then people focus on what was left out. Still seems to me Daunte should not be dead.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Awesome post. All participants on any message board should arm themselves with all known facts before positing.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I don’t necessarily agree with that. Through the conversation we all learn something. Sometimes we don’t know we don’t have all of the facts. We all still might not have all of the facts right now. Was the car on or not? We don’t know.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I did say known facts. And I think we should do at least a simple Google search for facts before posting!

kritiper's avatar

No. Looters will use any excuse to loot and pillage.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Well, I enjoy learning on fluther and interacting with the jellies, so I might not always meet your standard. Plus, I come from a background of no question is a bad question, ignorance is not something to be ashamed of, and being willing to learn is to be rewarded. Don’t get so harsh in your requirements that you discourage participation and communication. When we hear each other’s POV we start to understand the various POV’s out there in country and the world, Whether they are informed or not, understanding how people think is important in my opinion.

JLeslie's avatar

@si3tech So sick of people saying looters and vandals are BLM. We had MILLIONS of people in America and around the world peacefully protesting for BLM and then rioters take advantage in some locations and people like you say that defines the BLM movement? Seriously? I guess the people who stormed the Capitol represent all Republicans.~ Just stop.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Good point. All I am saying is that posters here should accept some responsibility for what they are posting. Having a POV without any facts is probably a little worse than not having any POV.

@si3tech @JLeslie To me., personally, the BLM movement has one objective only. And that objective has nothing to do with fairness.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Now THERE is a surprise!

seawulf575's avatar

I think it is an excuse to act like animals. They will use any excuse to scream racism so they can act out their violence. Remember the case of Mohammed Noor and Justine Damond? To refresh your memory, Ms Damond heard what sounded like a woman being attacked behind her house. She called 911 to report it. Noor was in the first squad car that showed up. Damond, dressed in her pajamas, ran out to the car to tell them she called. Noor pulled his gun, reached across his partner and shot her dead. Noor was black, Damond was white. There were not cries about racism for that, however as soon as it was announced that he was going to be investigated and tried, the cries of racism started up. It was apparently wrong to look into a suspicious shooting by a cop….as long as the cop was black. So the mob started raising Cain about the fact they would be so racist as to investigate a black man.
The screams about racism have come out so long, they are meaningless anymore. All they are is a call for rioting and looting.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Those screams may be meaningless to you, but there is the unfortunate fact that the killings continue. My own take on this is to wonder what I would do if I believed that an encounter with a cop might be my last act in life, then have to participate in that EXACT circumstance?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly So when a black cop shoots a white victim that is not racism? Why not?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Is THAT what I said? I’m trying to pull from the top of my head the last time I heard about such a thing. Can you recall such an incident? Can you recall more than one? I will grant you that it MUST happen, but the difference is that for black folks, we can now EXPECT it to happen. And I can tell you POINT BLANK, that you will have a tough time finding a black person in this country who does not understand that in the days before these things were news this has been the TRADITION regarding black folks and cops.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 I remember that incident, now that you bring it up. I did not follow it to a conclusion. Do you know if the investigation was ever completed?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Perhaps we should begin keeping track. As I see it, whatever YOU 2 may think regarding black folks and crime, you cannot possibly believe there are more black criminals than white available to be detained by police. By the same token, you cannot believe the inordinate numbers of black men behind bars reflects the proportion for which they are guilty.

si3tech's avatar

@crazyguy Dante is now being Cannonized in the press.

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Demosthenes's avatar

No. Opportunists use these protests as an excuse to steal shit.

rebbel's avatar

@si3tech You accidentally spelled the name of Daunte (which was already written twelve times in this thread, and probably a multitude of times more on national TV) as Dante.
Must have slipped through your proof read…
Just saying.

Brian1946's avatar

@si3tech

“Dante is now being Cannonized in the press.”

So the press is now portraying him as an overweight private detective? ;-)

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly pretending indignation is a weak ploy. I just listed a case where a black officer shot an unarmed woman…the same woman that called 911 to report a woman was being attacked. To suddenly act like it was never mentioned is pitiful.
And you completely dodged the question. When a black cop shoots a white victim, is that racism?

seawulf575's avatar

@crazyguy After much to do, Noor was convicted on a manslaughter charge, I believe. I think that was the least they could do. I mean when the police are called to a potential attack on a woman and they shoot the first woman they see that is coming to talk to them, I have to believe that the only reason he wasn’t hit with a stronger charge is because of all the idiots screaming that it was racism to try him in the first place.

But let’s look at the dynamics here. A black cop shot an unarmed white woman. Why isn’t that racism? Why is it always racism if the cop is white and the person being shot is black?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Here’s the Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison and the city paid 20 million in a lawsuit. After this shooting and another one, the Chief of Police of Minneapolis resigned. I just saw a documentary about it on PBS, called, I believe, “Investigative Lens” and it was about women police officers. The Chief of Police was a woman. The documentary was made in mid-2020, right after the George Floyd killing, and it went back several years to talk about how the present Chief of Police became the chief (after the lady Chief resigned, after the two high profile shootings).

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Yet throughout the whole thing, the only screams of racism were when the police wanted to investigate and try Noor…not when he shot an unarmed woman of a different race. So when a white officer shoots a black person, the only reason that could ever happen is racism, yet when a black officer shoots a white person, it’s wrong to punish the black officer. Can you explain that to me?

jca2's avatar

Yes, I think I can explain @seawulf575 by saying that the number of unarmed black men who are shot or killed by police every year is so much greater than the reverse.

seawulf575's avatar

But is that racism? I have posted links on a different thread that shows that blacks commit a disproportionately large number of violent crimes. In some cases, more than white people on the same crime. So if they are committing crimes and resisting arrest when stopped, is that really racism by the cops?
And look at the case of Justine Damond. Noor shot her as she approached the car “because he felt she presented a threat to his partner”. She was in her pajamas, carrying a phone. So how does a black officer see a white woman in her pajamas with a phone in her hand as such an immediate threat that he felt he had to shoot her? What was it about her that was a threat? The color of her skin? Was that enough? So why wasn’t that racism?

jca2's avatar

I didn’t say Justine Diamond wasn’t racism, @seawulf575. Apparently it was wrong because the city of Minneapolis had to pay out a big punitive amount for it, plus the cop got a decent sentence.

Look at George Floyd. Was he resisting arrest when the cop was on his neck for almost ten minutes, half of that time he was not breathing, and handcuffed so obviously not resisting that much (as dead people can’t resist arrest). Look at Eric Garner in NYC. He was selling “loosies” which are single, loose cigarettes. He put his hands up and said “don’t arrest me.” For that, he ended up dead.

Can’t you see why black people are mad?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: As for Trayvon Martin (George Zimmerman case), why did Zimmerman even approach Trayvon Martin? All Trayvon was doing was walking through the neighborhood, having just bought the skittles at a store. Why did George Zimmerman get out of his car and approach Martin? Zimmerman was a wannabe. If he thought Martin was such a bad guy, he should have called the cops, not played renegade.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 No, YOU never said the Damond case wasn’t racism. But those that scream about racism whenever a black person is shot sure didn’t call it that. They only thing they called racist was actually trying to hold the black officer accountable.
But you see you are making that same illogical leap that the leftist media makes, don’t you? Chauvin, in my view, was a bully. He was an ass. I don’t know the names of the cops involved with Garner, but I’m sure there were some that were bullies as well. But being an asshole does not automatically make you a racist. You are ascribing their motives when there really isn’t evidence to support it other than the victim’s skin color. So given that leap of intuition, every time a black officer shoots a white person or an Asian officer shoots anyone non-Asian, or a Latino officer shoots anyone non-Latino…those are all examples of racism. Nothing else matters…none of the details, none of the facts…just the skin color. That’s all that matters.
Cops are not perfect. They are human just like you and I. They will make mistakes. And just like the rest of humanity, there are many that can be just plain assholes. But not everything is about race.
If you got attacked by a black person and you defended yourself and accidentally killed the person, would that make you a racist? By your logic, it would.

seawulf575's avatar

As for Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman never approached him. He was following him to see what he was up to. It was Martin that circled around and approached and attacked Zimmerman. Make sure you get the story straight.

rebbel's avatar

Yeah, and it was not Trayvon getting murdered, but Zimmerman.

Demosthenes's avatar

Basically what the Zimmerman case taught us is that you can harass someone on the street and if they respond with anything other than submission, you have a right to kill them. Maybe Trayvon Martin didn’t like being profiled and followed; maybe Zimmerman was a raging racist. I’m sorry but there is no defending Zimmerman. He was a wannabe cop who got his ass handed to him by a teenager and since he was a fucking pussy, he shot that teenager when he was losing the fight.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Zimmerman was in his car. He was protected by his car. Why did he get out of his car to confront Martin on the street? That’s the part that makes no sense. If I see someone scary in the street, and I’m in my car, I don’t care because I’m protected by the steel and the locks of the car. If something is really wrong, I can always call the cops. If I got out to go confront the scary person on the street, that just wouldn’t be logical, unless I was a tough guy a-hole who wanted trouble.

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes If that is all you learnt from Trayvon Martin’s actions that day, I’ll continue to pray for you.

What I learnt was:

1. Do NOT trespass.
2. If you are caught trespassing, do NOT resist.

Demosthenes's avatar

@crazyguy I’ll continue to pray for you

No thanks.

Martin was profiled and then killed for reacting negatively to being followed/accosted. There’s really nothing else to it.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 I was being facetious with the shoot-on-sight order. However, I really think that if curfew breakers are arrested in onesies and twosies, we would never get the crowds we have seen the last four nights; and then we would not get any looting.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie If the taser worked instantly, it would have been a better choice. However, since we saw the ineffectiveness of tasers in Florida, perhaps Daunte would have ended up being shot anyway. By the way, no matter what the wild one says, Daunte was not operating a vehicle when he was shot. After being shot he did manage to drive away and crash the car.

Also, in response to I guess since it is a high stress time during an arrest a police officer could make a mistake, but she was supposedly very experienced. I’m not so sure she even needed to draw a taser, let alone shoot it, did you see the whole video? I am sure that, after watching the full video, you have realized that it was necessary to at least tase Daunte.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I accept your admonition to not be so harsh. That is what my wife tells me all the time. In my defense, all I can plead is the fact that I was an engineer and have always seen black and white, with few, if any, shades of gray.

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes So you think he committed no offenses? Or display any stupidity?

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes He was followed and profiled for one reason alone – he was trespassing!

hello321's avatar

^ Not that it matters at all, but Trayvon Martin was not trespassing.

If you’re going spout your bullshit, at least get the basics correct.

jca2's avatar

Trayvon was walking in a neighborhood where he was staying temporarily. The fact that the people in the neighborhood may not have been used to seeing a black man or boy walking their streets doesn’t justify killing him.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I can understand your frustration with calling all rioters and looters BLM. And defining BLM as the movement of the looters. However, let me make a few points:

1. There was a video of a BLM leader urging people to loot in the name of reparations.
2. Arson and looting seem to inevitably follow peaceful protests by BLM, which provide the cob=ver for unruly elements. I cannot imagine any non_BLM types being allowed in the protests.

hello321's avatar

^ When you know what BLM is.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Even if a BLM “leader” said some horrible things, the movement is way beyond a few voices. MILLIONS of people in American and the world of all races and ethnic groups came out for equality and safety for all, and specific attention to Black people being targeted.

The Tea Party was started by people just interested in taxes, but it evolved into a right wing group. Did it matter what the creators and leaders wanted? The narrow focus they had? NOPE.

BLM is a movement of many. There is not one leader. I know there is an organization or association or something that takes donations, but the majority of the MILLIONS of people on the street and in their hearts who believe in BLM know nothing about it. I bet if you polled 1,000 Republicans and 1,000 Democrats, more Republicans know about taking donations under the name BLM than Democrats. The Democrats out there for BLM just want to the oppression, inequity, and physical harm to stop.

As far as the taser, I think the cop was saying stop trying to get away or I will tase you. He wouldn’t stop so she fired. Something was very wrong though. She made a huge mistake.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 you really should not accuse me of dodging your arcane conclusions. I never do. If you think I hadn’t noticed your example of the white woman shot by a black cop, you’re wrong. The FIRST thing I noticed is that you had to go back 2 years to find your example.

jca2's avatar

It’s actually almost four years, @stanleybmanly, as the Justine Diamond shooting occurred in January 2017.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
JLeslie's avatar

About the Trayvon Martin case, Zimmerman was told by the police to not approach Trayvon. Zimmerman took it upon himself (Mr. Macho Man I guess) to go directly against what he was told. Trayvon was only walking, he wasn’t breaking into a house or hurting someone else. Even if he wasn’t staying in that neighborhood, it’s not a reason to get into a fight and draw a gun on him! Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood watch if I remember correctly. We have neighborhood watch here. I would be shocked to find out they are armed. I hope they aren’t.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie In all your posts, you come across as a humane, caring person. Like most of us. I think the only difference between you and other jellies on the dark side is that you let some light in once in a while!

I am also open to learning about stuff. Fortunately, I have the time to dig into stuff.

I opened my mind and looked into the Zimmerman story, which happened at a time when I was frequently traveling for business, and had rather limited time to follow up anything. Here is what I have found out, that I did not know before:

1. Trayvon Martin did live in the neighborhood on a temporary basis, so he was not trespassing.

2. Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch coordinator according to Wikipedia. Zimmerman had been licensed to carry a firearm since November 2009.

3. Zimmerman called the police upon seeing Martin. He went against police orders to confront Martin. I have not seen any evidence to indicate that confrontation was necessary.

4. When the confrontation happened, it is rather obvious that Zimmerman was overmatched. According to ABC News, Zimmerman suffered a closed fracture of his nose, two black eyes, lacerations to the back of his head, a minor back injury, and bruising in his upper lip and cheek.

5. Like me, Zimmerman voted for Barack Obama in the 2008 presidential election. Zimmerman has since become a critic of Obama.

6. None of the career officials felt Zimmerman could be charged. Under public pressure, a special prosecutor was appointed and mustered a charge of second degree murder. The DA could not prove that case to any of the jurors, who found unanimously that Zimmerman was innocent. The Federal Department of Justice investigated if Zimmerman was guilty of a civil rights violation. After THREE YEARS, they gave up.

To me, there are a few conclusions to be drawn:

1. There is always more to any story than meets the eye.
2. Undue public pressure does not always result in sound decisions being made.
3. The emotion felt by the population and exacerbated by organizations like BLM is rarely useful.
4. It is so easy to destroy a life. Martin is dead, and Zimmerman may as well be.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie A few facts for you to ponder:

1. BLM, like the DNC, watches out primarily for itself. BLM gets more power every time a Black man is killed by the police. Whether the black person deserved that fate is a moot point.

2. Like you, I want all racism to stop all over the world.

3. Unlike you, perhaps, I realize the impossibility of that ever happening. All of us, without exception, are more comfortable with people who look like us.

4. In many instances, the real problem is not racism, but wealth and income inequality.

5. I’ll give you one example. During the months leading up to the February 26, 2012, shooting, Zimmerman called the police several times to report people he believed to be suspicious. On each of the calls, Zimmerman offered information about the race of the suspects only when specifically asked by the dispatcher to do so; his reports said that all were black males.

6. The real question we should all be working on together is what Black men commit so many crimes.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Who looks like me? Does my husband look like me? I am extremely pale white, medium brown hair, and blue eyes. My husband has olive skin, black curly hair, and light brown eyes. I look like I am from Eastern Europe, he looks like he is from somewhere along the Mediterranean, which is exactly the regions of the world our families are from a few generations back. Or, do you mean how people dress, style their hair, and speak?

Maybe because I grew up in such a diverse place I don’t see race and ethnicity like other people. I didn’t feel like culturally I was the “normal” person or the “right” person or the more “American” person. It reminds me of when I moved to Michigan and I would tell them about their accent and dialect, and about 80% of the people there would say, “I don’t have an accent.”

To me America was a diverse place and I was just as different or just as the same as the people around me who came in all shapes, sizes, and colors, from all over the world. That doesn’t mean I never have a stereotype in my head, I admit to having some, but when I meet a person I meet them as an individual. I am never surprised when someone might not be what I expected, because I know assumptions and expectations are constantly and consistently wrong.

Furthermore, I think it is extremely racist when people think someone is a certain way due to their race or how they look. They are basically saying how they are born locks them in to a specific path. Our cultural norms have to do with our environment more than anything.

I have had Black people tell me they shouldn’t have to wear a suit and tie, they imply white people somehow were born liking those clothes, and white people are not going to take away their culture by forcing them to wear a tie. I have had white people tell me Black people obviously won’t behave correctly because they don’t wear a shirt and tie. More than one person from both groups say this garbage to me! Can you believe it? They say it like it is literally race related to want to wear a shirt and tie. That white people pop out of the mother liking more formal clothing. It seems to come from the white private school and Black public school divide in the South from what I can gather.

I agree socio-economics is the biggest divide in most cases, but there is some blatant racism still around in some places too. Many racist people have limited experiences outside of their immediate surroundings.

I think we are talking past each other regarding BLM. I am just saying people are using different definitions when they use the term BLM.

Is your last point asking why Black men commit so many crimes? I think you maybe have a typo. Or, did you mean to write “what Black men commit so many crimes” and I just don’t understand what you mean. Is your expectation that Black people are criminals?

I have no problem with Zimmerman describing Trayvon as a Black person when he made the phone call to the police. Of course police might ask for or need a description. I don’t like that Zimmerman seemingly is more suspicious of Black people, I am not sure what is happening there. Being watched because someone decides you are suspicious should not be getting that person killed. If some man with a gun decided I was suspicious walking through a community I hope they would be smart enough to not confront me.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie First of all, yes, I had a typo. I did mean why but what I typed was different, so my computer autocorrected to what.

So what I was saying is that
we should all be working on together is why Black men commit so many crimes.

When I said look like us I meant the same race.

And I am will ing to admit there are a few limited exceptions. However, on the whole, you find that even black people are happier with their own. I’ll give you just one example. In our country club we have two black men. One is married to a Jewish white woman, the other is not (I am not certain he is even married). Yet they seem to spend more time with each other than with anybody else. I have played golf with both of them and love them both to death.

Does their preference for each other make them racist? Heck, no. It is natural.

Most of my friends are brown like me. They are from the same part of the world as I am. Am I a racist? I sure don’t think so.

I HATE TIES! Does that make me black in your eyes?

Zimmerman never mentioned the race of any suspicious person unless he was specifically asked. I have no idea how you conclude from the known facts that Zimmerman seemingly is more suspicious of Black people. From all I have read, he seems way less suspicious than many people I know.

I agree that Trayvon Martin should not be dead, but trying to blame Zimmerman when he was acquitted by a unanimous Jury verdict and after three years of investigation by Obama’s DOJ came up blank, is futile.

jca2's avatar

@crazyguy: In the Wikipedia link I posted on another question, they specifically stated that Zimmerman used the term “black” when calling the police, every time. I think also the implication was he only called the police on black people, not white people.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 It would help me a lot if you can dig up that link and post it here.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 You are doing nothing but spouting the abridged, BLM version of what happened. To start with, the community had had a rash of 50 or so robberies in the previous weeks. Zimmerman saw someone that was not from that neighborhood (or so he thought) walking and looking around at different houses. He called the non-emergency line to report it. He was on the phone with the dispatcher for quite a while. At some point Martin took off running and Zimmerman gave chase. He lost sight of him and went back to his car. Martin had looped around though and caught him at his car and began hitting him. It wasn’t until Zimmerman was beaten and bloody that he used his gun.
So Zimmerman did not actually walk up to Martin. He lost sight of him in fact. So Martin could have easily just gone on home. but instead he decided to show how tough he was.

Was Zimmerman right in all his actions? Absolutely not. But did he actually start the fight? Absolutely not again.

The whole thing was a tragedy…no argument there. And it was one that could have gone away a number of times…if both parties had acted differently.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I remember that there had been robberies. That’s why I said I didn’t mind that Zimmerman called the cops, or that he described him, of course he would describe him, or even if he had kept an eye at a distance, but you said Zimmerman chased after him. He was not suppose to do that. I wonder, was there any sort of fingerprint match from the robberies? Was Trayvon connected to the robberies in any way shape or form?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: The Dispatcher told Zimmerman not to chase Martin.

You’re also ignoring the fact that if Martin was so scary, why, oh why did Zimmerman leave the safety of his vehicle?

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 The dispatcher said they didn’t need him to follow Martin…that the police would be there soon. And Zimmerman just ran after to keep an eye on him from a distance, not to tackle him to the ground.
But if Martin was so innocent, why oh why did he turn around and jump Zimmerman?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie His chasing was just to keep him in sight…not to attack him. And he was on the phone with the dispatcher the whole time. If he was really trying to attack Martin, why would he stay on the line with the police?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I thought he was told not to chase or confront him, which makes sense to me. He did just the opposite of what he was told by the authorities.

Ugh, I just have no patience for the stupidity of macho men who think nothing will go wrong when they rough house, try to show their brawn, and think nothing will ever go wrong. He probably felt safe, because you know, he had a gun.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Source: CNN:
“February 26, 2012 – George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, Florida, calls 911 to report “a suspicious person” in the neighborhood. He is instructed not to get out of his SUV or approach the person. Zimmerman disregards the instructions. Moments later, neighbors report hearing gunfire. Zimmerman acknowledges that he shot Martin, claiming it was in self-defense. In a police report, Officer Timothy Smith writes that Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head.”

So he’s instructed not to get out of his SUV or approach the person, and he gets out of his SUV and approaches the person.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 Hindsight is 20/20, so we all know what Zimmerman should have done. Perhaps the same 20/20 hindsight should also be applied to Trayvon Martin. Could he have perhaps just run away?

seawulf575's avatar

@crazyguy He did run away and escaped from Zimmerman. Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he had lost him. Then Martin circled around to attack Zimmerman. So the better question would be “Could he perhaps have just entered his home once he got out of sight of Zimmerman?”

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Yes, I know…you keep bringing up what Zimmerman was told to do, what the dispatcher told him they did not need him to do. Yet you fail to address what Martin did and what he shouldn’t have done. Care to take a swing at that? I mean, after all, we know he disappeared from Zimmerman’s view. That was on the 911 call. So how, after Zim lost him, did Martin suddenly end up beating on Zimmerman (we know due to the physical evidence this happened)? They were only 65 feet from Martin’s home, so why didn’t he just go inside? Care to address the WHOLE story?

JLeslie's avatar

Trayvon was 17 years old. Zimmerman was well into adulthood, armed, and hopefully trained in some manner. The onus of showing good judgement falls more on Zimmerman.

I’m sure Martin’s parents wish he had just gone home, but it seems to me maybe he knew he was being followed by Zimmerman.

As a woman I would be in a panic if I knew I was being followed. I would be afraid to show him where I live, I would want to do something to try to get away from his sight and feel safer. Zimmerman created a cat and mouse situation.

We never got to hear Trayvon’s side, and so we know for sure the details are accurate? Is that just Zimmerman telling the story?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: I keep going back to what Zimmerman did because he did it first. If I walk up to someone and am in their face and acting aggressively, I deserve what I get. If I’m in my car and someone is on the street, and I’m scared of them, how logical is it that I would get out of the safety of my car? Unless I have a gun and want to act like an asshole…..

Good point by @JLeslie that we only know one side of the story, since there were no witnesses and Zimmerman is not likely to be telling the truth since he had a goal which was to be found not guilty.

crazyguy's avatar

@jca2 @JLeslie How do you know that is what happened?

The facts as we know them:

1. Zimmerman lost Martin – he could not see him any more.
2. A few minutes later, Martin has found Zimmerman, and is beating on him.
3. In self-defense, Zimmerman, a much smaller man, shoots Martin.

@JLeslie According to reports, Martin was not living there – it was a temporary situation. But keep in mind that he could not be seen by Zimmerman. We know that unless Zimmerman was lying to the 911 operator.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I thought he was staying there with his father.

Zimmerman lost him, but until then he was following him. The logical conclusion is Martin knew he was being followed.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, you might be scared at being followed. So would you, in reaction to that fear, turn around and surprise/jump the person following you? That seems extremely unlikely. So why did Trayvon? See…none of you want to actually admit that Trayvon played a big role in this tragedy. You just want to blame Zimmerman and act like Trayvon was an innocent bystander.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Have you never watched your neighborhood? I have. I have seen unusual behavior from various cars or people in my neighborhood and I have walked out so I could get a better look. Not walking up to the person/car but staying a distance so I could observe. That is EXACTLY what Zimmerman was doing. By his own words, while on the phone with the police dispatcher, he was a good distance off from Martin….and then lost sight of him. At that point he turned around and headed back to his car. So how is it that suddenly he is in a fight with Martin? The only rational explanation is that Martin initiated the confrontation…attacking Zimmerman.
As for no other side of the story, think about this…Zimmerman had multiple signs of being beaten. If he was a true racist that just wanted to kill him one of them black fellas, he wouldn’t have those signs. He would have shot first and made up the story later. His back was wet from the grass, his face was beaten, bloody and bruised. That physical evidence says something happened where Martin attacked him. He didn’t have his gun drawn looking to kill a black. He was jumped. Time to admit it…Martin had the absolute best chance of defusing this situation and chose not to take it. He paid with his life for that spurt of arrogance.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 We have no idea what Trayvon was doing. We do know what Zimmerman did, and what he says he did. In my mind Trayvon might be a young stupid young man. Lots of those around. Why do you think car insurance costs more for men under 25? He might have decided to become aggressive when he perceived someone coming after him. I really don’t know. How does that change what Zimmerman did? Zimmerman still was wrong. I am not making any judgment about whether Zimmerman should be in jail according to the law, I am saying Zimmerman was the adult. He was told not to do ANYTHING, to stay in his car. Because maybe people with more experience like 911 dispatch and the police know and understand how these things can go wrong.

The whole incident at minimum sounds like a couple of men being idiots and they got hurt and killed. I don’t think we actually know for sure Trayvon attacked first, because there is no proof, and we know Zimmerman has incentive to lie.

I am not even saying Zimmerman is racist, I am saying he was wrong in his actions. If the area is extremely white and there have been robberies, unfortunately, Black people would stand out as possibly not belonging to the neighborhood. I don’t think it is necessarily racist. but likely some prejudiced played a part. No “stranger” should be harassed though. I can just imagine one of my friends visiting and her Black son gets killed for walking while Black. It’s horrifying to imagine. What if it was a Chassidic boy walking through the neighborhood? Do you think Zimmerman would have followed him as suspicious? No Chassidic in the area, he is just visiting a relative. An East Asian boy? A Middle Eastern looking boy? Can you honestly say all 17 year olds are they same level of suspiciousness to you?

You seem to want to say Zimmerman did nothing wrong. Is that what you think? He did nothing wrong? Let’s say same situation and your son got killed by Zimmerman. Close your eyes and try it. You stop being Zimmerman, and be the father of the boy killed. Or, be the boy. You are 17. You know someone is following you. You know you are a minority who is targeted by some people. What do you do?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I thought he was staying there with his father. Actually he was not. Like you could have found out in less time than you took to type out your post.
From Wikipedia: “On the day he was fatally shot, he and his father were visiting his father’s fiancée and her son at her town home in Sanford, Florida. She lived in The Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community Martin had visited several times before.”

Demosthenes's avatar

He was staying with someone who lived there; he had a right to be there. He was not trespassing.

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie Welcome to the world of uncertainty! We never know exactly who did what to whom, or who said what to whom. That is why we have judges and juries. Unfortunately for you and your sympathizers on this board, and in the country at large, the jury has already spoken on this matter. All SIX of the jurors were convinced beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. That is the bottom line; no argument can change that.

However, Obama, because he acted like Trayvon could have been his own son, requested his Department of Justice to investigate if Trayvon’s civil rights had been violated. Well, guess what?

Nearly three years to the day after the Florida teen was killed, the US Justice Department on Tuesday announced that it has closed its investigation into the fatal encounter and will not bring a civil rights charge against the gunman, George Zimmerman.

I think it is time to bite the bullet. Nothing more needs to be said on this subject.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I have never said Zimmerman did nothing wrong. I have agreed repeatedly that he did. But you and many others seem to want to say Martin did nothing wrong. The physical evidence does not support that conclusion.
I said Martin attacked Zimmerman for several reasons. First, he lost Zimmerman’s tail. Zimmerman told the dispatcher he had lost sight of him and started back to his car…as the dispatcher had been urging him to do. You and many others focus solely on his failure to stay in the car and do as the dispatcher said. That is something he did that was wrong, no argument. But that is where you all seem to stop with the reasoning. When he lost sight of Martin and started back to his car, how did he end up in a fight with Martin? Martin obviously lost him and the entire thing was defused.
The only obvious answer is what Zimmerman told the police…that Martin circled around and attacked him. It would have been impossible for him to shoot Martin if that never happened. And how do we know that is what happened? As you say, Zimmerman could have lied and would have a reason to make it up. But that leads us to the rest of the evidence.
The police got there shortly after the shooting. Zimmerman’s back was wet from the grass. How did it get wet if he wasn’t on the ground? Did he throw himself onto the ground to be in some better position to shoot? His nose was cut and his face was bruised. So how did that happen. Did he beat himself up? Did he put the signs of the fight on Martin’s hands to try covering his tracks? All that sounds highly implausible.
What sounds MORE plausible is that Martin, being a teenager, was going to set this guy following him straight. He lost the tail, circled around, and attacked Zimmerman. In the fight, he got shot.
Fault: Zimmerman shouldn’t have gotten out of his car OR he could have called out to Martin to talk to him at the very least. Following someone in the night seems to set the wrong tone. Martin should have just continued on to his home. They were only 65’ from it when the fight happened. Once in the home, he would have a door between him and a potential threat AND he would have support of his family and a phone to call the police. He should not have attacked Zimmerman. At the very least, he should have asked why Zim was following him instead of just starting in with a fight.

JLeslie's avatar

I said Martin did nothing wrong? Where?

@crazyguy He was visiting. If your grandson visits me and walks down the street he has every right to be there. He also can come into my home at any time if he is my guest, I will give him a key. I’m not sure what you are talking about. If he walks into the next subdivision he still should not be assumed to be some sort of criminal just because people don’t usually see him around.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 A post full of facts unlike any of the others. I do disagree with one of your statements: I have never said Zimmerman did nothing wrong. I have agreed repeatedly that he did.

Then you go on to say that not staying in his car was wrong.

I do not think not staying in the car was wrong because many suspicious people reported earlier by George had got away.

Refer to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

In particular read Background of the Shooting.

Pay particular attention to what had been going on in the neighborhood prior to the shooting:
eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting. Zimmerman was appointed the Neighborhood Watch Coordinator in September 2011.

During the months leading up to the February 26, 2012, shooting, Zimmerman called the police several times to report people he believed to be suspicious. During the call to 911 on the night of the shooting he is heard saying: ” These assholes, they always get away. ” That is an important reason for why he felt the need to get out of his car. The full transcript pop the 911 call is embedded in the link above.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy Are you saying he felt the need to get out of his car, and that was where he made a mistake? Or, you feel he was justified to get out of the car, because he didn’t want Trayvon to get away?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie “Trayvon was 17 years old. Zimmerman was well into adulthood, armed, and hopefully trained in some manner. The onus of showing good judgement falls more on Zimmerman.” You didn’t specifically say Trayvon did anything wrong, and you throw all the burden of good judgement onto Zimmerman. This is in response to comments that Trayvon did something wrong.

And remember, you aren’t the only one on this thread that has done this. Look back to where this got somewhat derailed to the Martin/Zimmerman affair. Every comment has completely ignored Martin’s actions and thrown everything onto Zimmerman. Yours was about the only one that even hinted that there might be something wrong with Martin’s actions even though you didn’t actually say that. In fact, if you read only those statements and didn’t know anything about the case, you would believe that Zimmerman came upon a black teenager, pulled out his gun, and shot him without provocation. He then made up a story to tell the police.

rebbel's avatar

….Zimmerman came upon a black teenager, pulled out his gun, and shot him without provocation. He then made up a story to tell the police.
Which is exactly how it could exactly have panned out.
Since it’s all from hearsay from Zimmerman.
Trayvon can’t tell his version.
Because he got shot to death by Zimmerman.

seawulf575's avatar

@rebbel Yes, and as part of the cover up Zimmerman beat himself…just to make it look good. Not to mention there were witnesses that saw Martin fighting with him. But hey, don’t let facts and logic get in your way.

rebbel's avatar

I understood he beat Zimmerman, that’s widely published, and witnessed.
I didn’t leave it out to pretend it didn’t happen.
It’s a known fact.
My response is purely about the idea that Zimmerman could have fabricated stuff (because it would be his words, and his words only.
Maybe he hasn’t been fabricating it, but the thing is, Trayvon isn’t here to corroborate or deny it.

seawulf575's avatar

@rebbel If it was just Zimmerman, with no other witnesses and with no other corroborating physical evidence, I could easily agree with you. But to even suggest it at this point looks like nothing other than a way to say he premeditated the entire thing and that Martin was just an innocent little lamb. Nothing could be further from the truth.

rebbel's avatar

Was not at all what I was getting at, premeditation.
I’m all for justice, for each and every member of society.
Even the cruelest suspects.
And a fair justice system would be grand.
(Not insinuating anything with that last sentence. Just saying.)

crazyguy's avatar

@rebbel Your post does not insinuate anything. You include the words just saying but the post does not say anything. Please be clearer.

rebbel's avatar

I thought you possibly could take my ”And a fair justice system would be grand.” to insinuate that right now the justice system is anything but.

crazyguy's avatar

@rebbel If I were prescient enough to interpret your post correctly, how exactly is that an answer to my question?

rebbel's avatar

I think I lost you.
Must be that I’m not proficient enough in English.
Or another reason.

crazyguy's avatar

@rebbel prescient =having or showing knowledge of events before they take place

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