General Question

crazyguy's avatar

What exactly is wrong with the Cyber Ninja effort in Arizona?

Asked by crazyguy (2981points) 1 week ago

As far as I can tell, there is no attempt being made to tie individuals to ballots. No funding has been sought from the state government. The procedures for floor policies (see link below) seem reasonable. I am not sure what kind of fraud is being sought; but what exactly is the harm?

https://www.cyberninjas.com/static/20210429155650/Wake-TSI-Counting-Floor-Policies.pdf

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35 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

It is a company run by a pro-drumpf, qAnon conspiracy theorist, a company with zero experience with elections or ballot counting, who tried to keep the “methods” they are using a “trade secret”, and who were already seen using blue and black markers that can be used to alter ballots.

They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations.
I am going to say it outright: They are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake.

ragingloli's avatar

Tell me, if BLM, or Antifa, were to conduct a ballot “audit” in, let us say, Florida, and the “result” was that Biden “won” the state, would you trust that result?
Why or why not?

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli So your only issue is that you believe it to be pro-Trump and qAnon. But tell me, does it matter? If their policies are square right up the middle, then what is the issue? It sounds as if you don’t care if ballots were tampered with, as long as they were tampered with to support the Democrats. But now you have a conspiracy theory that they are somehow, despite their transparency, trying to pull some underhanded trick in favor of Trump. And nowhere has anyone even put forth the idea that the election would or should be overthrown…just that voter fraud should be identified and eliminated going forward.

BTW, what do you care if we find and eliminate voter fraud in our country? You don’t have a dog in that fight.

Irukandji's avatar

@seawulf575 “So your only issue is that you believe it to be pro-Trump and qAnon.”

What a thoroughly dishonest response. The very first sentence of their answer also lists lack of experience, questionable methods, lack of transparency, and the use of markers that can alter ballots as additional problems.

“If their policies are square right up the middle”

But they aren’t. Read the whole answer.

“BTW, what do you care if we find and eliminate voter fraud in our country?”

US policy, and therefore US politics, affects the entire world.

ragingloli's avatar

@Irukandji
It is what he does.
Also, one of the so-called “auditors”, is a confirmed participant in the Jan. 6th capitol riot:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/anthony-kern-arizona-maricopa-county-capitol-riot_n_608cd3d3e4b046202707b08e

flutherother's avatar

You don’t send a fox to guard the hen house.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

They could declare Trump won by a 7,250,000 votes (more votes than the entire population of Arizona include newborns)

They have an agenda and have no business auditing anything !

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli They were unaware of the state election laws regarding blue and black markers, but they did modify their procedure rather quickly:
“We must take great care to protect the ballots and return them in the same condition we receive them. In order to protect the ballots, the following rules will be enforced:
• No food or beverages
• No white paper
• No black pens or markers
• No blue pens or markers
• No personal items”

Why are the Democrats so scared of audits? If I had nothing to hide, I would say: Bring it on!

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli I would not care who did the audit as long as their conclusions were subject to a different audit.

crazyguy's avatar

@Irukandji Please be specific. Do not hide behind generalities.

crazyguy's avatar

You guys have a standard response: Since there is zero evidence of fraud, why keep trying to dig up that evidence?

ragingloli's avatar

“They were unaware of the state election laws regarding blue and black markers”
See, that is precisely the problem.
Why let someone, who has no bloody idea what they are doing, do the audits?
And that is only if you buy that excuse.
Which, in light of the background of the company in question, and the people employed, I do not, and neither should you.

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli So your problem is with the company even if the proposed process meets all the tests?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

The company include members that “Stormed the Capitol” on January 6th, I know you don’t see a problem with that . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Just send in the SS and Storm Troopers next to kill all the Democrats and declare Trump the Chancellor and Führer und Reichskanzler!
,
,
,
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,
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,
,
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,,
,
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You know Trump lost the election !

Response moderated (Personal Attack)
crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli I carefully read both of your links.

The principal takeaway for me was that there is significant concern about the possibility of physical tampering with the ballots. Even if that were done, surely the Arizona Secretary of State has records to indicate:

1. The number of ballots handed over to the State Senate.
2. The actual counts of ballots voting in different races.
3. The number of illegible and/or otherwise rejected ballots.

With such records, the Secretary of State will be able to refute whatever allegations are made.

Now, let me ask you a question: “Just why are the Democrats so afraid of an audit?”

Irukandji's avatar

@crazyguy “Please be specific. Do not hide behind generalities.”

I was specific: @ragingloli presented five objections to the Cyber Ninja effort and @seawulf575 pretended that they had only presented one objection. Since I was weighing in on @seawulf575‘s response and not the validity of those objections, I’m not sure how much more specific I can be. But here it is again: @ragingloli said “I have five objections,” and @seawulf575 responded “so you only have one objection” and proceeded to craft their entire answer around that false (and dishonest) premise.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The primary “wrong” in such proposals is that they are premised on the belief that defeat of bankrupt proposals and backward individuals at the polls is proof of fraud. They are EVERY ONE OF THEM measures which on their face UNNECESSARILY restrict and suppress the voting process without demonstrable need nor requirement.

crazyguy's avatar

@Irukandji Let me count the objections @ragingloli had in his first reply:

1.It is a company run by a pro-drumpf, qAnon conspiracy theorist” Perhaps, he is correct. Personally, I wouldn’t care if the company is headed by Biden himself, as long as all the findings include the evidence. For instance, if one of the findings is that a dozen or so ballots appear to be marked by a single individual, I would hope that images of the ballots in question are included.

2. a company with zero experience with elections or ballot counting, who tried to keep the “methods” they are using a “trade secret”

A fair criticism. The courts agreed with the criticism and forced full disclosure.

3. and who were already seen using blue and black markers that can be used to alter ballots. Again a fair criticism, that has already been addressed.

4. They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations. This criticism is a little general.

5. They are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake. Talk about don’t confuse me with the facts.

Pandora's avatar

When have you ever seen a person on the ballot (who lost) count these ballots? That automatically speaks to their dishonesty. Bet if it was a democrat that was counting ballots for a race he or she lost in, the right would be screaming their heads off. I know, I know. What is good for me isn’t for thee is the Republican motto.

crazyguy's avatar

@Pandora Welcome to the melee! Please read my answer to @Irukandji, in particular, my POINT #1.

ragingloli's avatar

@crazyguy
1. The first issue is that it is not an honest audit.
They could have, should have, subcontracted the process to actual experts, with experience, who are politically neutral.
But they did not do that.

Why? Because when other states did their audits by neutral experts, they did not find any evidence of foul play.

So for this, they deliberately hired a hyper-partisan, incompetent company run by a conspiracy theorist, whose activities have already shown signs of an intent to manufacture a result.

2. The second issue is that it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it.

Propagandists have continuously spread misinformation about “voter fraud”, “hundreds of thousands of discovered illegal votes”, “illegal immigrants and dead people voting”, “voting machine manufacturers flipping thousands of votes to Biden”, Biden trying to “ban hamburgers”, etc.
And it does not matter how matter how many lawsuits they lose, how many audits showing that there was no voter fraud, even outright retractions by the various right wing news channels that initially spread these lies, people who want to believe that the election was “stolen”, will continue to believe it, because either the corrections, retractions, and debunkings, do not even reach the right wing audience, or they ignore it, or reject them as “fake news” by the “deep state”, and see those just as further “proof” that they are right.

And it will be the same in this case.
Once they release their “results”, it would not matter if a subsequent investigation exposes the audit as fraudulent, and their results as made up.
The damage will have already been done, and it would be irreversible.

crazyguy's avatar

@ragingloli It appears that you read only the messages directed at you. No problem – thanks to copy and paste. Here is what I stated in my response to @Irukandji.

Personally, I wouldn’t care if the company is headed by Biden himself, as long as all the findings include the evidence. For instance, if one of the findings is that a dozen or so ballots appear to be marked by a single individual, I would hope that images of the ballots in question are included.

Then you say: it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it. So let me get this straight. When anybody shouts FIRE, you instantly believe that person and run for the exits?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So they show up with agenda (get 12,000 votes for Trump) and you’ll be happy happy happy @crazyguy if they meet their goal.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli ” The second issue is that it is really easy to disseminate misinformation among a receptive audience, but next to impossible to undo it.” Funny…I have said that exact thing (or near enough). But I always point towards the true propagandists. And you are part of their receptive audience. Your answers here bear that out.

Irukandji's avatar

@crazyguy The five objections as I see them (and as I listed them in my original response) are:

1. The group is pro-Trump/QAnon.
2. The group lacks experience.
3. The group has questionable methods.
4. The group lacks transparency.
5. The group has used markers that can alter ballots.

“They are questionable people, with questionable methods, and questionable motivations” is more of a summary, and “they are there to tamper with the ballots, and any result they come up with, should be discarded as fake” is an opinion/conclusion.

It seems that you don’t care about the first objection, find the other four to be fair (at least fair enough to demand changes in the group’s original operating procedures), but nevertheless disagree with @ragingloli‘s opinion/conclusion (which is certainly better than disagreeing with the first objection and pretending the others don’t exist).

seawulf575's avatar

@Irukandji I view the five objections as being hokey, given the original question.
1. The Pro-Trump/Qanon connection is extraneous since they are performing the audit according to guidelines which they have put into writing. So how they feel or whatever other conspiracy theories are out there are curtailed. And the guidelines were put forth in the original question.
2. The group lacks experience. That may be, but again…if they are putting their operating procedures into writing and getting them approved by the state legislature, their past experience doesn’t really matter.
3. Questionable methods. This again is only based on scare tactics from left wing news outlets. They have put their procedures into writing. They are showing what they will do and how they will do it. And they have proven they are willing to change those if there are reasonable objections put forth. This was seen when they added the color of pen that could/could not be used.
4. The group lacks transparency. Again…they have put their methods into writing. They have had to get buy in from the state legislature before they can do anything. And I saw today that the Democratic AG for Arizona has the ability to have observers in the room. Not sure what isn’t transparent. Isn’t that what was considered acceptable in GA for their auditing?
5. The group has used markers that can alter ballots. That was addressed and corrected so it is nothing more than fluff to come up with another objection to paint them in a bad light.

@ragingloli‘s opinion/conclusion started and stopped with the conspiracy theory that they are rabid Pro-Trump/QAnon fanatics. After that, everything else was attempts to make that true.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 You, my friend, are amazing!

stanleybmanly's avatar

You’re both “amazing” in the same sense as Mr Trump and the legion of dummies promoting this latest attempt to counter reality. When you lose this one AGAIN, what will you have achieved?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Is it your contention that “rabid /Pro-Trump/QAnon fanatics” are not in favor of this latest act of futile desperation? Once again, there isn’t a thimble load of logic between the 2 of you.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly You are living proof of just how right I am. As is @ragingloli. As is @Irukandji.

seawulf575's avatar

@Pandora “When have you ever seen a person on the ballot (who lost) count these ballots? ” Huh. Let’s start with the fact that President Trump is not counting the ballots. He has not paid for those that are. They are doing this at the behest of the State of Arizona legislature.
But your comment is equally obtuse for another reason. In a case of potential voter fraud, why would you want the winner to recount? To ensure the results remain the same and to cover for any fraud?

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Response moderated (Personal Attack)

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