General Question

allengreen's avatar

Isn't it great to kill defenseless animals?

Asked by allengreen (1618points) September 12th, 2008

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/12/brutal-ad-targets-palins_n_125975.html

This insults my conservative family values, so What Would A Soccer Mom in Plano Texas Think Jesus Would Do?

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60 Answers

ciripet's avatar

this it not a question ,it is an insult to god,s creation

paulc's avatar

Look, Jesus was just a normal guy. But lets be clear. If put up to the challenge he’s the kind of guy that could take down a sabre-tooth tiger with his bare hands while wearing wooden sandals (these are a help actually for kick-based attacks).

Seriously though, heli-hunting? Fucking lame. Most types of hunting? Same thing.

Now, I’m not from the US but looking from the outside in I’d say that the whole agenda is shifting from economic and social issues to something like a soap-opera of personal attacks. If you want to make sure that this Palin person doesn’t get into office, shift the focus back to what is more important: your economy is tanking (ant taking ours with it too), you’ve got an expensive disaster of a war still going on, etc.

CameraObscura's avatar

The more you all make this an anti-Palin election as opposed to the pro-Obama alternative, the greater your chances of losing.

stratman37's avatar

Yeah, Barack is great, ‘cause Sarah’s not. Great argument!

MarcIsMyHero's avatar

Maybe a little off topic, but anyone else enjoy killing defenseless digital animals? a couple beers and Big Buck Hunter is actually kinda fun. Killing living and breathing things…not so much.

I can’t wait for Palin to be out of the media already.

jrpowell's avatar

I will copy and paste what I said in the chat:

“I hunt and fish. But I eat what I kill. It isn’t a sport.”

“And how much gas was used in that plane to kill a trophy?”

kevbo's avatar

Respectfully, any of us who eat meat are culpable in the killing of defenseless animals. In some ways, hunting is a more honest way of acknowledging our reliance on animal flesh for food. Also, hunting can serve to keep animal populations in check to maintain ecological balance.

Trophy hunting, I think, is different, and it isn’t something I can support. Part of that equation is policy and part is the ethic of the hunter. Neither is my kind of people.

So, is this trophy hunting, depredation hunting, or food hunting? I would guess the first, and that is unfortunate, but it could be depredation hunting (hence the foreleg bounty). Also, hunting by air could be an evolution of necessity given Alaska’s size, climate, and remoteness. It’s still brutal to watch, but so is ramming a bolt through a cow’s brain, something that we endorse thousands of times a day.

I don’t like Palin’s candidacy, but this doesn’t seem like a relevant issue without more facts.

CameraObscura's avatar

I agree with both the above. Doesn’t bother me in the least that she’s a hunter but I’d rather it not be trophy hunting.

Poser's avatar

Is there really much difference between trophy hunting and any other type? Either way, an animal dies. My grandfather used to hunt deer every season, and occasionally elk. He has a couple of “trophies” hanging on his walls. But he didn’t mount every deer he shot. He did, however, eat every animal he shot. Had he only been hunting for trophies, far fewer animals would have died.

kevbo's avatar

I wouldn’t call that trophy hunting. I’m talking about animals that most wouldn’t eat such as wolf, lion, elephant, etc. The way I think of trophy hunting is more about collecting and hunting animals for the sake of checking them off the list of animals that you haven’t hunted yet.

allengreen's avatar

The American Media would have you believe that Palin channels Jesus Christ with her every word, so are we to assume that Jesus endorses arial killing of wolves?

@ camera—I am glad you’ve expressed your view that this will help the McCain Palin ticket.

marinelife's avatar

I do not have a problem with hunting if the hunters consume the meat and most of them do in Alaska, where I once lived.

allengreen's avatar

Alaskans eat wolves?

playthebanjo's avatar

nothing says mmm like wolf.

scamp's avatar

~Yeah… they “wolf” it down. ~

cheebdragon's avatar

What’s next?
“Did you hear that bitch uses uniball pens…”?
“Can you believe that she shops at a Albertsons….? She is really not qualified to be VP if that’s where she spends her money…”?

allengreen's avatar

Shopping and Albertson and shooting wolves from a plane are morally equivalant….Thanks for the insite on culture of life….

galileogirl's avatar

Shooting fish in a barrel does not seem to upset many people’s sensibilities. Cheney’s hunting parties were not much different. He was after “ranched” animals that were fed by the owners and thus easily tracked and had less fear of humans. Even when he shot his friend it became a joke and few people cared about the ethics of killing confined animals.

Since I am an omnivore, I don’t feel entitled to take umbrage with what others eat. If you want to eat moose or squirrel, practically the only way you can is to hunt them. (Sorry Rocky and Bullwinkle). They are not are not available at Albertsons and in Alaska they are plentiful.

What I do object to is thrill-killing which is what shooting wolves from helicopters is. It may never be illegal but it is, in my opinion, a very negative character flaw. Wolves are not hunted for food and in the wilderness they play a vital environmental role. So helo-hunting wolves is just destructive behavior by perverts trying to get off.

Of course the video doesn’t claim Governor Palin herself is a helo-hunter, she doesn’t have to be. In small town Alaska moose regularly walk down the street so getting a moose for the freezer doesn’t take much more than a trip to the country. As far as signing laws that allow helo-hunting, every gov has to hold their noses at some point when they sign bills into laws. A basic concept of democracy is compromise. So an attack on that level is just as specious the false charges leveled against Senator Obama. Joining the Republican admen in the mud is not what Senator Obama’s campaign is about. Hope is not enough if we are going to betray our values like honesty and ethical behavior.

galileogirl's avatar

kevbo: It is hard to imagine depredation hunting from a helocopter since by definition it would mean hunting wolves that were in conflict with humans. Most problem animals in populated areas can be relocated and those who can’t would not be hunted by helocopter in the suburbs of Anchorage. Helo-hunting is done in unpopulated wilderness.

Trophy hunting wolves by helocopter is a sick joke. You might just as well raise wolves in captivity and when they reach their prime, kill them for their pelts. At least THAT would show some personal effort expended to get the “trophy”. Or why not trophy pit bulls or rottweilers?

kevbo's avatar

I agree with you in principle, but it looks like it is a depredation effort, at least on paper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17735990/

Another POV: http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/ (you might have to click “back” on the browser to get to the article).

cheebdragon's avatar

Yeah! Hunt a pack of wolves on the ground…....that’s a really smart idea!~
One less idiot in the world.

El_Cadejo's avatar

cheeb seriously? I mean seriously you see nothing wrong with this?

galileogirl's avatar

cheeb: you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Sport hunting involves man pitting his wits against animal instincts. Helo-hunting is like bombing a pond, using technology to senselessly destroy life. And the fact is through most of the last 30,000 years humans have hunted wolves “on the ground” to protect livestock. Before that we domesticated them to be companions.

allengreen's avatar

@cheeb—are you getting Raptured today? or did you find another way to exit the planet? “One less idiot in the world.” Have a good trip, I won’t miss you

@galileogirl——a voice of reason. Check this out http://womenagainstsarahpalin.blogspot.com/

cheebdragon's avatar

@galilleogirl- my dads idea of “family vacation” was a hunting trip, several times a year. I was 3 months old the first time I went on one of these “family vacations”....

cheebdragon's avatar

Allengreen- clean your glass bellybutton….

allengreen's avatar

cheeb—no objection to sport hunting. Different from ariel hunting where the animal has no chance——do you see the difference?

cheebdragon's avatar

Wolves are not like puppy dogs, do you not understand that they are vicious wild animals, that will kill you! What the fuck does it matter, where you are when you shoot them? People hunt deer and other animals from a tree, but you don’t hear people bitching about that being inhumane!
Have you ever seen a bear trap, Allen? Does that seem like a friendly way to hunt? Have you ever killed a gopher? A mouse? Rat? Do you think stepping on a bug is a kind thing to do?
Everyone is so concerned for the wolves, but I’ll bet most of you are also pro-choice when it comes to abortion…..
“save the wolves…...get an abortion today!”

cheebdragon's avatar

do you see the difference?

allengreen's avatar

I’m against trapping….So government should decide what you do with your body in a reproductive sense?

Stop abortion, send the kids as cannon fodder in 100yrs of endless war?

cheebdragon's avatar

people put poison out for mice, ants, rats, rabbits, roaches, birds…....but think about it…..people don’t kill them because they are any kind of threat to us, they kill them because they are getting into the garden, or into the trash, or into our kitchens…..and the only reason they are doing that is because we have taken away their natural enviroment! Because we needed more houses?
So people complain about the wolves being killed, and they complain untill someone in Washington decides it should be illegal…..just like abortion…...

allengreen's avatar

the gov does not legislate against killing ants and should not be involved in legislating concering abortion either…

El_Cadejo's avatar

@cheeb theres a bit of a difference in killing ants coming into our houses and going out IN A FUCKING HELICOPTER to hunt down wolves. Its a different story if say the wolves were in the town terrorizing people. But they arent, they are in the middle of fucking NOWHERE. They are killing them for no reason. Its different.

cheebdragon's avatar

most of Alaska is out in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Do you know why hunting is legal? You should read up on it…..

allengreen's avatar

the kettle calls the pot black…...

El_Cadejo's avatar

Theres a big difference between hunting for food. And then just killing for no reason other than sport.

cheebdragon's avatar

Hunting is legal because it provides food and it’s also a way to keep the population of animals down.

allengreen's avatar

How can we keep the population of Republican’s down? I hear pasty white flesh is delicious——hell this could end world hunger, and those Georgia chicks—don’t get me started—

cheebdragon's avatar

probably the same way we could keep the population of idiots like you down…..

galileogirl's avatar

cheeb: Interesting that you see wolves as vicious. And that you see it as an individual’s right or duty to keep the animal population “down”.

Wolves are wild animals doing what wild animals do…they survive. They are only vicious in cartoons. In the wilderness, they are part of the natural order. They cull the the least fit of their prey so only the fittest survive and the grazing populations do not grow too large for the area.

If you want to talk about vicious, running down animals (any animals) from the air, shooting them and cutting off their paws or antlers and then leave the bloody corpses to rot is vicious and perverted.

It is also not up to individuals to decide what the populations of animals should be on public lands. It would serve you well to stop being so defensive and think about the logic of your argument, because seriously kiddo, your sophistry is showing.

allengreen's avatar

Wolves are mammals, have emotional intellegence, have communication, have social interactions, have memory—which is more than I can say about most Republicans I know…...maybe we should, hmmmm…..maybe Republicans are wolves in people clothes, would it be cool to see airplanes flying over polling places “controling” the Republican population.

We are making progress here I beleive…..What kind of Bounty should be offered?

galileogirl's avatar

Psst, Allen, utcay uthay Epublicanray apcray. Not adding to the discussion, just picking at you-know-who is not cool.

allengreen's avatar

I am guilty as charged…...

grayreason's avatar

The reason why hunting any animal for sport is legal is because its a necessary step to keep the people, local industries, and local game safe from an abundance of animals like wolves. Personally i don’t see the issue with this, at least the government isn’t funding the complete extermination of the wolf population.

allengreen's avatar

Flying Monkey Alert!

grayreason's avatar

galileogirl – The government cant fund the extermination of a species due to various laws currently in place and they can’t allow the extermination of them due to massive public knowledge of the species.

allengreen's avatar

Let’s just kill kill kill all the animals. Kill them, wolves, polar bears, eagles, everything. Welcome to the culture of life…..

galileogirl's avatar

Laws can be changed (even the Constitution) and as we have seen over the last few years, the government isn’t always responsive to the wishes of the vast majority

cheebdragon's avatar

“They are only vicious in cartoons”.........Oh, really?

“Wolves and bears are very effective and efficient predators on caribou, moose, deer and other wildlife. In most of Alaska, humans also rely on the same species for food. In Alaska’s Interior, predators kill more than 80 percent of the moose and caribou that die during an average year, while humans kill less than 10 percent. In most of the state, predation holds prey populations at levels far below what could be supported by the habitat in the area. Predation is an important part of the ecosystem, and all ADF&G wolf management programs, including control programs, are designed to sustain wolf populations in the future. – ADF&G

Poser's avatar

The government of the USA wasn’t intended to be responsive to the whims and wishes of the majority.

galileogirl's avatar

At least bears and wolves aren’t rampaging through Safeway taking all the T-bones, legs of lamb, Cheetohs, wine and Ben and Jerry’s out of the mouths of poor deprived humans.

galileogirl's avatar

vi·cious
–adjective 1. addicted to or characterized by vice; grossly immoral; depraved; profligate: a vicious life.
2. given or readily disposed to evil: a vicious criminal.
3. reprehensible; blameworthy; wrong: a vicious deception.
4. spiteful; malicious: vicious gossip; a vicious attack.
5. unpleasantly severe: a vicious headache.
6. characterized or marred by faults or defects; faulty; unsound: vicious reasoning.

Yeah, REALLY!! (and logically they can’t be blamed for unchristian behavior, either)

cheebdragon's avatar

Nice try….........I wonder why you didnt post the entire definition for everyone…........“negative character flaw”, maybe?
vi·cious –adjective
1. addicted to or characterized by vice; grossly immoral; depraved; profligate: a vicious life.
2. given or readily disposed to evil: a vicious criminal.
3. reprehensible; blameworthy; wrong: a vicious deception.
4. spiteful; malicious: vicious gossip; a vicious attack.
5. unpleasantly severe: a vicious headache.
6. characterized or marred by faults or defects; faulty; unsound: vicious reasoning.
7. savage; ferocious: They all feared his vicious temper.
8. (of an animal) having bad habits or a cruel or fierce disposition: a vicious bull.
9. Archaic. morbid, foul, or noxious.
Dictionary

Trance24's avatar

Hey Tori did you also know that the wolf population was considered endangered, until just recently when they finally were able to repopulate? They play an important part in our environment we can not just go on a killing spree. Especially if they are not posing threat to us. When they are in THEIR habitat they should be left alone. Wolves are not known to attack humans unless they fear that they themselves or their pack is threatened. Just like a bear protects its cubs. It is animal instinct for them to protect themselves. Steve Erwin always would say that we are in their domain, if they attack you it is never their fault. Why because it is their instinct they are a wild animal. We are supposed to be tolerant of that.

Other Links concerning wolves:
Wolf Reserve
Columbia Wolf Reserve

cheebdragon's avatar

wolves are endangered in some parts of the world…...but they have never been endangered in Alaska.

galileogirl's avatar

Wolves are just as vicious as bees only bees are sneakier. Koalas would just as soon use those claws as look at you. Primates are filthy beasts, biting and throwing feces. And don’t get me started on snakes, even the non-poisonous ones are scary. And why won’t those songbirds just SHUT UP? Elephants are just too big, taking up that space we could otherwise develop. Besides that I could live without weeds and trees that continuously litter the yard. This world just isn’t big enough for all that pesky untamed life, let’s just tidy up OUR planet and get rid of all bothersome flora and fauna

allengreen's avatar

i guess I’m getting kicked off fluther, notice has been served—I’ve enjoyed all of you folks…..good luck…...ag

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