Social Question

SQUEEKY2's avatar

How much more can the abortion issue be debated?

Asked by SQUEEKY2 (21905points) 1 month ago

Pro lifers want an all out ban no matter what.
Pro choice people want it left up to the woman.
We all have stated time and time again our personal feelings on the issue.
What more can be achieved?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

61 Answers

janbb's avatar

So why ask another question on it?

hat's avatar

It’s 2022. There is no space or time for debating this. It’s a matter of human rights, and those who are opposed to them or have “nuanced” views are the enemy.

And yes, @janbb makes a great point. There’s nothing to discuss here.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@janbb because it keeps popping up.

hat's avatar

I think we need to shut that shit down, though. It was fun when we were young and the US was hanging on to these rights by a fragile court case. Now, we have a serious crisis in the US. Time for talk is over.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Meaning what @hat exactly ??

hat's avatar

^ We’re not going to convince them. We just need to beat them. I’m not sure what it would take in the shit country like the US. But we can’t go on pretending that these people are acceptable, decent people with confused views. They need to end.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Some Pro-Lifer’s definately have a problem with an all out ban. Myself included.
But yeah, there’s not much left to say since most of us never got an actual vote on it.

rebbel's avatar

It can be discussed to death.
Literally.
It’s time for all pro-choice states to invite (and pay for) all people that are pregnant and want abortions.
And give a big finger to all who are anti-choice.

janbb's avatar

@rebbel Most of them are welcoming out of state patients but charitable funds are helping to pay their costs.

rebbel's avatar

I read about some states doing that, and that’s great.
Wasn’t aware that most of them did (even greater).
Kudos to charity too!

Fuck them anti-choice assholes.

JLeslie's avatar

The opening statement is incorrect. Plenty of pro-life people have exceptions and plenty of pro-choice people agree with limits. Although, I think ideally a lot of pro-choice people prefer the government stay out of it altogether, but they certainly don’t think it’s ok to kill a healthy 8 month fetus, that’s just a total lie told by the pro-life extremists.

@rebbel Many companies have added to their health insurance paying for transportation to another city or state if it’s not offered where the woman lives.

Some states are “abortion states” for people living in nearby states and countries that don’t have easy access, or only do abortions the first trimester. Florida, where I live, has been doing abortions for women in Latin America and Southern states that have very little access for many years. The new DeSantis laws shouldn’t change it much the way I read it, unless further changes were made since I read the bill he signed. New York and California would also be states where women can go.

Blackberry's avatar

Things are constantly debated because there’s a rotating cycle of humans being born and constantly learning new things.

Some people get older and see the cycle and decide to become more passionate, or just realize it’s futile and move on, while others that may have just discovered something take up the reigns.

That and the world is just so massive that everyone isn’t on the same page. People in the midwest have more hurdles and more ignorant family members than those in a Los Angeles suburb.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

That is totally right @Nomore_Tantrums not only that but remind people of that 10 year old rape victim from Ohio ,that the state was going to make carry the fetus to term,and was forced to travel out of state to get an abortion that should never have been questioned in the first place.

JLeslie's avatar

I think the next big hurdle will be if more alt-right maniacs get into power and try to pass a law to make abortion illegal in the US. Sunday morning I saw some Christian show (like the 700 club) talking about how the courts should not have so much power, because those people are appointed, and that our representatives should be able to decide the vote and make laws. Terrifying. They were talking about how the Pagan Gods are wreaking havoc on our lives in the US. I kept saying to my husband, “Gods? Plural?” How is it these Christians are talking about Gods? It makes no sense. Obviously, in my mind, those people are not Christians.

I have no doubt those extremists do not really feel it should be decided by the states, but that it should be illegal period in the US at the federal level. I realize plenty of Republicans think the states should decide. Or, that’s how they feel now, because the possibility of illegal at the federal level has not been offered up yet. Some might stick to state level, but some will be happy if it can be federal.

Gotta vote as the jellies above me said, and women need to share their stories of needing health care for their pregnancies.

Also, I think it would be better to ignore the red states that have not made big changes so they don’t make more restrictions. I have been saying that about Florida. I don’t want DeSantis to do more than he has. He barely has changed anything. The media attention and obsession from the Democrats will backfire. They keep saying he did not make exceptions for incest and rape. Anyone can get an abortion for any reason up to 15 weeks in FL under the bill DeSantis signed. After that you can get one for life of the mother and severe abnormalities with the fetus.

smudges's avatar

It can and will be discussed until the end of time. But it doesn’t have to be discussed at all until and/or unless it comes up for a vote. The deed is done, ffs. can I vote for @janbb more than once? like 23 times?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I’m firmly in the pro-choice camp but I’m embarrassed by how other pro-choice advocates act sometimes. Attitudes have got to change if there is a hope and a prayer of changing pro-lifer’s minds. I do think it can be done, but not the way people argue this now which is seemingly as incendiary as possible.

Demosthenes's avatar

No one is budging on this issue, I can tell you that. It isn’t like same-sex marriage where knowing gay people in your life can soften your attitude toward it. If you believe it’s child murder or a fundamental woman’s freedom, there’s no softening your attitude on it. Abortion may be the most polarizing issue there is in modern Western society.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@Demosthenes I think most people see it as a gradient except for the hardliners. They can’t be reasoned with because they’re unreasonable.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I would like to know why do men have a say in this issue at all, and I am a man.
I have stated my feelings on this issue a bunch of times and if people don’t agree with me oh well.

Nomore_Tantrums's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Not only that but if she had gone full term she’d have been a “moocher welfare mom” according to the righteous right, as soon as the baby was born.

JLeslie's avatar

@Demosthenes Take my MIL. Devout Catholic, I’d be pretty sure she doesn’t approve of abortion, and if surveyed she’s probably say she is against abortion for any reason, but she had two pregnancies go bad, almost died during one when they were removing a dead fetus, and her last child was born in the seventh month, and almost died.

She had very heavy bleeding for years, she was afraid she could die from it. Her Catholic doctor wouldn’t do a hysterectomy because she could have more children according to him. She went to a Jewish doctor to get it done. My guess is she doesn’t want religious fanatics making abortion laws, or making any healthcare laws for women.

I do think pro-lifers soften when a situation happens to them or someone very close like a daughter, wife, or sister, but unfortunately not until that point, and their friends and family are less likely to talk about or admit if they needed to end a pregnancy.

Forever_Free's avatar

It will be debated by some for eternity.
It will be debated currently until it is in complete control of the woman’s body and decision.

Entropy's avatar

I don’t think we’ve ever had a real abortion debate. What we have are two sides yelling at each other and not listening. One yells that the other side is anti-liberty, trying to ‘control a woman’s body’, the other yells that their opponents are ‘baby killers’. Neither side listens to the other. It’s not a debate we’ve been having for the last half century, but a shouting match.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

It’s an issue people are generally not even honest with themselves about. The hard side-taking shows it. That’s what people do when seeing the other point of view is painful or goes against personal beliefs. It’s uncomfortable, it’s ugly and it’s unfortunate. A fetus is a life we are terminating. At times it’s medically necessary to do so. An early pregnancy terminated is less unfortunate than a late-term one. Abortion should be legal and between a doctor and their patients. It’s nothing to celebrate, it’s often traumatic. We should not shame those who had to have one but we don’t need to be all willy-nilly about having them either. Objectively speaking, this is necessary, and the practice will continue if it’s legal or not. Evangelicals and other Christians have clouded judgement here because of their religious beliefs. I don’t know how to say that without being blunt. It’s an emotional out and they don’t have to reason through the gory details here. On the flip side the pro-choice arguments that try anything to mitigate the act of killing an unborn fetus, like calling it a parasite or claiming pro-life advocates are uncaring is disturbing to me. Seems that side does not want to face the ugliness either. I don’t see any absolute moral high ground and that’s what people frame their arguments with so it will be argued fruitlessly for the foreseeable future.

Kropotkin's avatar

The abortion is issue is boring and done and dusted.

We should be moving on and debating the merits and justifications of infanticide.

seawulf575's avatar

I think the debate continues because of people like the one asking this question. When you make a statement like “Pro lifers want an all out ban no matter what.” it shows that you haven’t listened to any of the debate so far. You have bought into what left wing-nuts say and that must be the truth. Debate involves actually listening to each other, not attributing views to the other side and then holding them accountable for those views.

JLeslie's avatar

Wow, I agree with @seawulf575.

Although, there are actually some people who want no exceptions, but that seems to be the minority of people. Plus, It’s not just Democrats only listening to “left wing-nuts,” the Republicans are listening to the right wing-nuts.

Republicans seem to believe Democrats love getting abortions like it’s going to Disney, Republicans believe that Democrats get abortions at 9 months, and Republican believe even with laws threatening doctors that they will go to jail for doing abortions, that there will still be doctors around to save a pregnant woman’s life.

There are Republican politicians backstepping their position after the Kansas vote. In other words, they just care about getting elected. They don’t give a shit about women or the babies or the doctors.

jca2's avatar

@JLeslie I agree with your description about Republicans believing Democrats love abortion and will do it at 9 months. Republicans also made up this fake shit about “Post birth abortion” which is the baby comes out and it’s cut up with knives or some bullshit like that. Meanwhile, when you look at the actual definition of abortion, there could be no such thing as a “post birth abortion.” It goes against the actual definition of abortion. It would be like going to an appliance store and asking for a refrigerator that can bake a cake.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@jca2 What you’re attributing to Republicans should actually be directed at Evangelicals. All Evangelicals are Republicans, not all Republicans are Evangelicals.

jca2's avatar

@Blackwater_Park What I wrote here, I can attribute to some Jellies who, I don’t believe are Evangelicals, at least they haven’t said they are on here. They wrote on Fluther about such stupidity as “post birth abortion” and that they believe it exists.

KNOWITALL's avatar

So actually the debate is ongoing here, as Planned Parenthood is sending out mobile units to rural areas. Purportedly it’s only for birth control and other general health issues, as well as vasectomies.
They suspect from the language of the article, they are trying to do abortions as well at some point, getting around hospital requirements in case of emergencies.

So as long as the workarounds keep coming, which would endanger lives, legislation to prevent that will follow. Here anyway.

Not expressing an opinion either way, just stating current developments here.

jca2's avatar

@KNOWITALL: If abortion is illegal in a state, it would be illegal whether it’s done in a building or in a trailer. Planned Parenthood doing illegal abortions in trailers is all just speculation and sensationalism. I really doubt any doctor or nurse would take a chance of doing an illegal abortion and going to jail for murder.

Kropotkin's avatar

Pro-lifers should argue among themselves, because there are those who think that a human zygote from the moment of fertilization is a sacred thing and “human life”, and therefore should be subject to the same laws and rights as any born human.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 The article specifically saus ‘AT FIRST, only medication abortion will be offered.’

That language, especially heading to rural areas here, will be extremely dangerous.

Legislators are on top of it, thanks.

https://www.ozarksfirst.com/local-news/regional-news/missouri-planned-parenthood-opening-mobile-and-rural-clinics/?utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR2OJVRxy0gfrLnlmX_If3iYIcOImyv8rgAUd1fmuzf3NbRhjnjqx4xhlhQ

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Did MO outlaw all abortions? Medical abortion is using medicine to abort, which can only be used early in the pregnancy. If that’s still legal a mobile unit or temporary location for Planned Parenthood sounds good to me.

I thought Biden wanted to try to make medical abortion legal at a federal level, I don’t know what happened with that.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, it’s a felony to distribute or administer medication abortions. Medical emergency is an exception, nothing more.

Either way, legislators are investigating this mobile situation alteady.

janbb's avatar

Well, I think it’s very valid that the country is having this debate and we clearly will need to resolve some things.

However, I stick with my first point that we all on this forum, pretty know where the battle lines are and maybe don’t need to constantly rehash it. Just my two or maybe four cents.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Morning after pills illegal too?

jca2's avatar

@KNOWITALL: Thanks for providing the link. You hadn’t provided any link when you first mentioned the mobile Planned Parenthood.

I think it’s great they’re making birth control and other things available on a mobile basis, for people who may be in hard to reach places.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 You’re welcome. :) Busy day or I’d have posted it earlier.
It’ll be interesting to see how it goes, for sure.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Yes. Can’t bring them in from out of state either, or mail. Jail 5–15 years, I believe.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 “Republicans also made up this fake shit about “Post birth abortion” ” This has come up before. It IS the Democrats that have suggested exactly these things. The bill presented by the Dems in Virginia that the governor even stated _”“In this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen,” Northam said. “The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”” Now, you added the bit about cutting it up, but if the baby is born and then the mother decides she doesn’t want it (i.e. the same choice as getting an abortion) then she and the physician can decide to just withhold sustenance and treatment and let it die. After the baby is born. Post Birth. The bill itself allows right up to the point of birth…as the baby is being born. Forgive us poor conservatives for believing what these people say. But we didn’t create this idea…the Democrats did. “This article“_https://www.thecollegefix.com/trending-more-college-students-support-post-birth-abortion/ is very telling and it was written in 2014. College students are supporting post birth abortion up to a child of 4 or 5. Where do they hear these ideas? Apparently if you don’t call it a child you can still fool yourself into believing it is a fetus.

But this goes back to my original statement. I don’t believe that ALL Democrats believe this. But it is an idea that has been proposed even in laws. College professors support it. College students are eating it up. So it has to be part of the honest discussion. The same way that some conservatives want zero abortions for any reason needs to be part of the discussion. And throwing out statements like calling the verifiable data “fake shit” is about shutting down discussion.

janbb's avatar

@seawulf575 Oh jeez! That’s only done when a baby is born who is non-viable or tremendously compromised and has been being done for years. When I was interviewing pediatricians forty years ago, I asked a potential one what should be done if a baby was born who wasn’t viable or severely compromised. This is exactly why decisions should be left to the parents and their doctors. It might be euthanasia but it is not “post-birth abortion.”

cheebdragon's avatar

Post birth euthanizing sounds better, maybe if we start referring to abortion as pre birth euthanasia people will be more receptive to the idea.

janbb's avatar

@cheebdragon I suspect you meant to put a tilde at the end of that statement.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Oh for fucks sake @seawulf575 and @cheebdragon, @janbb just explained that and you still gasp,what should be done then?
The new born isn’t going to survive very long so what is your enlightened holy Republican solution??

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb That is not what is being said. You are making excuses. The proposed law in VA did not give any specification as to the condition of the child. Two ethicists from Australia argue that post birth abortion should be allowed for all the same reasons as the pre-birth abortions are done. Even with healthy babies. And the article I cited about the views of the college kids said they supported post birth abortion up to about ages 4 or 5. You can try putting any spin on it you want, but the argument is out there being made. And in reference to this question, as long as you refuse to admit it, there is not an honest discussion to be had on abortion. In all debates, you are not allowed to make certain facts off limits.

seawulf575's avatar

@cheebdragon You can’t use the term euthanasia. You euthanize living things. The key to the entire abortion argument seems to be that it is a lump of cells, not a living thing.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Please see what I just responded to @janbb. This is your question. But you aren’t engaging in debate when you want to distort facts. Again, I don’t believe that all Dems or leftists think overtly or privately that post birth abortion is a great thing. But it is out there. Dems and other leftists ARE proposing it, discussing it, trying to come up with ways of presenting it that makes it sound reasonable. Why can’t you just admit it? Why do you have to try claiming it isn’t happening?

You are starting to hit on why the debate over abortion will go on. People can’t admit to the weirdness. You just asked me what to do with a non-viable child. But you ignore the part about what to do with a healthy child. Your questions are deflections from the issue. People are proposing post-birth abortion for any reason and you want to ignore that and focus only on one piece, claim that is the only piece, and then try saying it is humane and what would I propose? I would propose addressing the entire issue. If a child is born so helpless, weak, and frail that it is going to die any way, it will die. It won’t matter what is being done. I am against artificial sustenance for children like this or for myself for that matter. If I get to where I am going to die and all that can be done with medical science is to prolong my living for another few days or weeks or even months, don’t waste the time. It isn’t a life in my book. But this sort of thing isn’t new. That has been a discussion between doctor and patient (or loved ones) for many, many years. Look up Karen Ann Quinlan sometime.

Having a baby die happens. Having a spontaneous abortion, also known as a miscarriage, happens. These things are not illegal. But to legislate or even seriously propose that a baby can be killed after birth or even during birth for whatever reason the mother wants is where people get upset. You are good at asking question to deflect so let me ask one that doesn’t deflect. Are you in favor of a woman deciding after giving birth to be able to just say her mental health is a great reason for not having that baby? For “aborting” it?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Sorry @seawulf575 I looked at the link and think it’s propaganda bullshit postbirth abortion on a healthy child no one would call that, and if it’s even remotely true I am very much against that,same as late term abortions as long as the mother’s health is not in jeopardy most doctors will not do a late term abortion unless the mother’s health was in jeopardy but you fright wingers make it sound common place like the woman is due in a few weeks and decides to abort because she wants to go sking instead with her friends.

JLeslie's avatar

Oy. This post birth thing I think has to do with doctors having to kill a fetus before any part of it is outside of the woman for it to qualify as a legal abortion. If you get rid of that rule, then I’m guessing medically it might be easier in some cases to abort, I don’t know. I think most people want to reduce any possible suffering of the pregnant woman or baby, and to reduce any medical risk to the pregnant woman, not only reduce risk to her life, but also reduce risk of physical injury from a pregnancy or terminating the pregnancy.

The whole “late term
abortion” thing is less and less an issue, because we know much earlier when something is very wrong, compared to 25 years ago. Pro-life people who say and believe they would never abort, usually want to abort when they find out the growing baby has no brain or has very severe abnormalities.

So, if I understand correctly, in MO, a woman who was thrilled to be pregnant after trying with her husband for 6 months, if she finds out at 14 weeks she has a baby that could never live outside of the womb, she has to wait for the baby to come to term, deliver the baby, wait to recover, and then can start trying to get pregnant again.

On a related topic, my pro-life friend who is a nurse who works taking care of premies at a large hospital says she would never put her own child through what some of these very very early term babies are put through. If the baby makes it, they have severe problems their whole life. Many don’t even make it, but the family wanted to try everything.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 It will be interesting. Especially a PP mobile clinic in a church parking lot. Hope everyone beefs up their life insurance policies. Yikes.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Is it possible the PP mobile clinic will only be doing basic healthcare like birth control, healthy checks like pap smears, health care for pregnant women, and not writing giving out abortion medication?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie That’s all they CAN do in this state legally.

jca2's avatar

What they can do is park themselves right over the state border and do what is legal in that state (I believe it’s the state of Illinois, according to the NPR article I linked).

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 Yeah, IL is good, and it would help a lot, but MO is a big state, so the interior would be without. MO borders some very red states to the south, so that would probably still be a problem to some extent.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 A big problem with the debate on Abortion is the media. They cough up some extreme and make it sound like it is the whole thing on one side or the other. A lot of the problem is that common sense sort of solutions, such as the ones you suggested, are never good enough to the extremes on either side. And unfortunately this country has a long past of sliding things along over time. RvW had in place pretty much exactly what you suggested. But then that wasn’t good enough so we suddenly get PPvC which takes away some of the restrictions to make it okay to get an abortion at any time in a pregnancy for any reason. That eventually slides into discussions and efforts at making abortion at the point of or even past birth a reality. But the restrictions…the rules that would make that okay…are carefully avoided leaving it pretty much up to any reason at all being good enough. Then the extremes on the other side of the debate decide that is ridiculous and push for entire abortion bans, regardless of all else. But at the heart of all this is the media.

RvW gave abortion the position of a Constitutional right that never existed. Even when it was passed it was understood it would lose out based on challenge. It made it a lot longer than many expected, but eventually was overturned. The overturning was not to make abortion illegal, it was to make it no longer a federal issue. Constitutionally, this is what should have been all along. That doesn’t change the debate, however. Immediately the media starts chanting that the SCOTUS and the Repubs want to control women’s bodies when the exact opposite is what actually happened. They basically said the Feds SHOULDN’T control the issue. The case that they overturned RvW on was a state law that basically set in place rules that closely mirrored RvW. But that isn’t how it was portrayed.

Debate involves honesty and facts as well as opinion. If you remove honesty and/or facts, the debate never gets resolved because no two people share exactly the same opinions.

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