Social Question

jca2's avatar

What do you think about Trump's comments re: NATO, that if countries don't pay up, he'll let Russia do whatever they want?

Asked by jca2 (16268points) 2 months ago

It’s been all over the news, and here’s a link with video. Trump said that if other NATO countries don’t pay up, he’ll let Russia do “whatever the hell they want.”

What do you think?

It makes me wonder whose side he’s on.

Link: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68269354

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76 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

Completely unsurprising, and also nothing new.

Kropotkin's avatar

NATO isn’t a US institution and isn’t a US protection racket, which is what Trump implies with his choice of words.

Trump is basically a fucking moron.

What a word we live in where jackasses like him get any sort of power and status, let alone become heads of state. He’s barely competent enough to scrub toilets, which if we lived in a truly meritocratic society, is what he’d be doing.

elbanditoroso's avatar

1) We know whose side he is on; he has been pro-Russian, because somehow he is on their payroll, and has been for a dozen years or more. They must have some truly powerful blackmail method that they’re holding over him.

2) Given the republican worship of Trump, it is safe to say that the republican party is dangerous to the United States and should be considered treasonous.

PREDICTION: We will have a visit from out favorite right-winger ; he will

a) Deny Trump said this
b) ask you to show him a quotation that isn’t in the so-called mainstream media
c) Be rude to anyone who disagrees.

ragingloli's avatar

d) try to tell us what the orangutan “really” means and how he is totally right.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@ragingloli oops, I left that one out

jca2's avatar

@elbanditoroso The good thing is the link I provided has a video clip.

canidmajor's avatar

Ironic. Really, a statement like this from him?
@elbanditoroso not sure even our resident Terribly Threatened cishet White Middle Aged Man would try to refute this. :-D

Zaku's avatar

@jca2 It makes you wonder?

Trump is a moronic scumbag who’s been in Putin’s pocket for many years.

Trump thinks he’s on his own side, but he’s a useful idiot and tool of Putin and others.

Heather Cox Richardson adds:

National security specialist Tom Nichols of The Atlantic expressed starkly just what this means: “The leader of one of America’s two major political parties has just signaled to the Kremlin that if elected, he would not only refuse to defend Europe, but he would gladly support Vladimir Putin during World War III and even encourage him to do as he pleases to America’s allies.”

Former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark called Trump’s comments “treasonous.”

. . .

Russia specialist Anne Applebaum noted in The Atlantic last month, even though Trump might have trouble actually tossing out a long-standing treaty that has safeguarded national security for 75 years, the realization that the U.S. is abandoning its commitment to collective defense would make the treaty itself worthless. Chancellor of Germany Olaf Scholtz called the attack on NATO’s mutual defense guarantee “irresponsible and dangerous,” and NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said, “Any suggestion that allies will not defend each other undermines our security.”

Applebaum noted on social media that “Trump’s rant…will persuade Russia to keep fighting in Ukraine and, in time, to attack a NATO country too.” She urged people not to “let [Florida senator Marco] Rubio, [South Carolina senator Lindsey] Graham or anyone try to downplay or alter the meaning of what Trump did: He invited Russia to invade NATO. It was not a joke and it will certainly not be understood that way in Moscow.”

She wrote last month that the loss of the U.S. as an ally would force European countries to “cozy up to Russia,” with its authoritarian system, while Senator Tim Kaine (D-VA) suggested that many Asian countries would turn to China as a matter of self-preservation. Countries already attacking democracy “would have a compelling new argument in favor of autocratic methods and tactics.” Trade agreements would wither, and the U.S. economy would falter and shrink.

Former governor of South Carolina and Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley, whose husband is in the military and is currently deployed overseas, noted: “He just put every military member at risk and every one of our allies at risk just by saying something at a rally.”

Conservative political commentator and former Bulwark editor in chief Charlie Sykes noted that Trump is “signaling weakness,… appeasement,… surrender…. One of the consistent things about Donald Trump has been his willingness to bow his knee to Vladimir Putin. To ask for favors from Vladimir Putin…. This comes amid his campaign to basically kneecap the aid to Ukraine right now. People ought to take this very, very seriously because it feels as if we are sleepwalking into a global catastrophe…. ”

Forever_Free's avatar

And you wonder why the US is the laughing stock of the world because of this lunatic.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

In that video he said you have to pay your bills, really coming from the Don Father who still owes cities money from his feel good rallies when he was president.

seawulf575's avatar

To start with, he is relating something that was said when he was POTUS. He was talking to NATO countries and telling them they had to pony up the money they are supposed to pay to keep NATO alive. The question he got, “If we don’t pay will you still protect us?” was as cheesy as it gets. Think about that. NATO was set up as a bloc of countries in the form of mutual support to ensure the USSR didn’t try taking them over one at a time. The US has paid the lion’s share of the cost of NATO ever since. Every other country has started slacking off and now some are saying they want the US to protect them even though they aren’t willing to put any money towards their own protection. Sleazy, at the very least.

But another thought on this would be: How would these countries feel if the US just decided they couldn’t afford to pay the 2% of their GDP to NATO? Would they let it slide as so many of them have slid? Or would they be screaming bloody murder?

The simple fact is that NATO has lost its purpose. The USSR broke up in 1991. There is no “Soviet Threat”. The UN should be taking over and NATO should be canceled. Time to move forward with the times.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 “The simple fact is that NATO has lost its purpose. The USSR broke up in 1991. There is no “Soviet Threat”.”

I’m not sure if you’ve been living under a rock, but Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea in 2014 and then again invaded in 2022. Putin has expressed a desire to retake the territory of their former empire (which happens to include Alaska).

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wulfie ,no Soviet threat??
Wow you have the fright wing talking points down .
Nato requires country to put a percentage of their GDP into their militaries, some countries exceed that others just make the minimum.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Trump gets his talking points from Putin. Trumpies simply parrot what Trump says.

janbb's avatar

ROFL!!!

KNOWITALL's avatar

Isn“t Russia doing what they want to right now?! The US isn’t stopping them, NATO isn’t stopping them.
I’m shocked at the supporters of NATO here. Expanding by admitting several Waraw Pact members after promising not to expand East, they are a primary cause of Russian aggression. Everyone knows that and Putin reminded viewers this last week.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws And Ukraine is not a NATO nation. So really, claiming there was an attack on Ukraine that should have triggered NATO to react is ludicrous. Most of the former Soviet nations are not members of NATO. Finland just joined, Sweden has applied to join, but it’s ridiculous. What is the purpose of the UN? There is a UN Charter that specifically states its role is to maintain international peace and security. Pretty much what NATO was supposed to be doing. And here’s the dinger: There are only a very few nations that are not part of the UN.

Another thought for you: I said the “Soviet Threat” no longer exists. You respond that Russia just did something to another nation. Russia is not the Soviet Union. It was a member of the Union, but it was not the SU by itself. Russia and Ukraine are both members of the UN. This problem should be getting addressed by them…it falls more into the UN than NATO.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 There cannot be a “Soviet Threat” without a “Soviet Union”. That ceased to exist in 1991…December 26th, 1991 to be exact. Why is that so hard to understand? This isn’t a “fright wing talking point”, it’s a historical fact. I know you aren’t much into facts (or logic for that matter), but it really does make a difference.

And the NATO Charter sounds amazingly like the UN charter. Why have both? If member nations are paying into the UN, why is NATO required? Why pay 2% of your GDP to an organization that is already doing the same thing as another organization? Look at it this way: would you pay two electric companies for your usage even if one isn’t doing anything for you?

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL There you go…trying to apply logic again. Just say “Hate Trump!” and you’ll likely get GAs galore.

ragingloli's avatar

@KNOWITALL
You would be well advised to not fall prey to that obvious russian propaganda.
Nato is a defensive pact, and poses no threat to a non-aggressor. Especially not to Russia, a country that was, prior to their disastrous invasion of Ukraine, considered a Nato peer in terms of military capability, and had one of the world’s largest nuclear weapons arsenal. Putin knows that.
There is a reason why the colonies had to find a “coalition of the willing” to invade Iraq. Because Nato itself was not going to participate.
The main driver of russian aggression is Putin’s desire for a legacy, namely the legacy of being the man who reestablished a greater russian empire.
If anything, the opposite of Putin’s claim is true. Russian aggression, potential and actual, is the main driver of Nato expansion. That is why Sweden and Finland, after decades of not wanting to join Nato, suddenly pivoted and wanted in on the club. Because following the invasion of Ukraine, they finally realised that they were not safe from Russia, and any agreements made with them were not worth the paper they were written on.

mazingerz88's avatar

trump-turd is pandering to his small-minded voter-fans making it an issue about money. That poor suffering Americans need the money the US is spending for NATO.

This is how trump-turd gets the vote. Convincing voters they are being victimized…just like him.

I have a feeling if trump-turd and his worshiper-voter-fans were in power instead of FDR…Hitler would be a welcome guest at Mar-a-Lago every year. With Tucker hosting.

trump-turd will keep Jared alive and remind his son-in-law daily how he owes his life to him.

mazingerz88's avatar

Btw…the more I think about it, even if NATO allies are indeed paying all their dues..trump-turd would find another reason to weaken NATO in support of Putin.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ragingloli I think the Serbs down to Nofth Africa would disagree that NATO poses no threat.
But I appreciate your comment.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I think Putin has some “Golden Showers” videoS of the Tangerine toad ! ! !

Notice the plural !

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wow the Soviet union disbanded in 1991 so it’s no longer a threat, then who in hell invaded Ukraine?
IF the Soviet union is no longer a threat then Russia sure the fuck is.

ragingloli's avatar

It is like saying that an axe murderer on a killing spree lost his left arm, so he is no longer a threat, completely ignoring that he still has his main arm, and an axe.
Russia was not just a member of the Soviet Union. It was the primary one, with satellite vassal states.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli You would do well to learn a bit about history before correcting someone else. The USA, back in the very early 1960’s was a power house. We had the nuclear weapons, we had THE armed forces, etc. Yet as soon as someone (USSR) wanted to put a missile base 90 miles off our shores, we almost ended in war with them. Why? They didn’t mean any harm…that’s what they said.

And that sounds amazingly like what was happening to Russia now. So it is entirely believable that Russia got concerned. NATO broke their own agreements and that is wrong. For them (NATO) to say they don’t mean any harm is already suspect, to Russia.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 When you have a group (NATO) whose sole purpose is to establish a mutual aid agreement against the evil USSR and the USSR dissolves, what is the purpose of NATO? And the UN already has the same basic tenets defining it’s goals. So now the Soviet Union (a collective group of nations) is gone but Russia (a single country that is also in the UN) decides to invade another country…a country that isn’t part of NATO anyway. So who is supposed to step in? The UN. Where are they?

But it’s interesting that you rant about the USSR as being evil, yet you support the socialism in your own country. Couldn’t happen in Canada, eh?

elbanditoroso's avatar

note to @canidmajor – my expectations were realized.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli But NATO wasn’t about protecting against Russia, it was about protecting against the USSR. There is a HUGE difference, even if Russia was the biggest of the Soviet countries. The land that put them right up against NATO countries is one big difference. The resources available is another. With the dissolution of the USSR you suddenly had Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine…all separating Russia from Europe. Russian forces and missiles are not sitting on or past Poland’s current borders

canidmajor's avatar

@elbanditoroso I came back to proclaim you impressive! :-)

ragingloli's avatar

Russia has been engaging in military aggression since almost instantly after the fall of the Soviet Union. That is what drove all these former warsaw pact countries into the arms of Nato. Nato did not seek them out.
Your domestic abuser “look what you made me do!” spiel is not going to work.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA= !

A real true Fright WINGER !

Support the enemy and fight the supporters of the USA and Armed Forces !

I hope if he gets in he closes 3 out of 4 VA hospitals to pay for HIS wall, are you going to go to Virginia or Western South Carolina ? ?

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Tropical_Willie maybe he’ll move to the newly independent Republic of Texas.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

If he does, he won’t get VA hospital benefits ! @elbanditoroso

Zaku's avatar

@seawulf575
“And Ukraine is not a NATO nation. So really, claiming there was an attack on Ukraine that should have triggered NATO to react is ludicrous.”
– That would be, but . . . who claimed that?

“Sweden has applied to join, but it’s ridiculous.”
– In what way?

“What is the purpose of the UN? There is a UN Charter that specifically states its role is to maintain international peace and security. Pretty much what NATO was supposed to be doing. And here’s the dinger: There are only a very few nations that are not part of the UN.”
– Sigh. The UN is mostly an international forum, and an attempt to get the whole world discussing and resolving issues peacefully.
– NATO is a military alliance to put Russia in check. The name change from USSR to Russian Federation is not particularly relevant, especially when Russia is led by an aggressive former KGB officer who has repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons in first strikes.

ragingloli's avatar

Russia also has veto power in the UNSC. Any attempt to reign in Russia’s belligerence, Russia can just say “no” to.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Isn“t Russia doing what they want to right now?! The US isn’t stopping them, NATO isn’t stopping them.”

Russia is getting FUCKED up. They had a massive store of weapons (the largest cache of armored cavalry on the planet). That has forced NATO to be prepared to counter a mechanized invasion force. Such stockpiles are vastly depleted without the significant loss of the lives of American soldiers.

Russia’s naval fleet is getting wrecked. Their experienced military leaders are being killed and their infrastructure is being targeted. A lot of the money being “spent” is essentially assigning value to our old crap in stockpiles that was scheduled for decommission anyways. If you look at the ROI on this war vs. pretty much any other scenario that involves a belligerent Putin invading neighbors unchecked and letting Ukraine do the fighting is probably the optimal one.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Russia has SCREWED themselves. !

Putin is moron !

SQUEEKY2's avatar

So Wulfie what is the answer let Putin have Ukraine,or at least let your hero gift wrap Ukraine first then hand it to Putin?
Putin is trying to put the old soviet union back together ,and you will scoff at this but that includes Alaska as well.

seawulf575's avatar

@Zaku Who claimed Ukraine is a NATO nation? @gorillapaws He answered, in response to my statement about NATO being formed to battle the Soviet Threat, that Putin had annexed Crimea and invaded Ukraine. That is a bogus answer since Ukraine is not a NATO nation. NATO was a mutual aid pact. It wasn’t a “jump in on everything Russia does” pact. The NATO charge is that an attack on any of the nations that signed the NATO pact was an attack on them all. Got a problem with me stating facts on this?

As for the Sweden comment, I didn’t write it completely clearly, but the “ridiculous” comment was to the whole discussion about how NATO should have jumped in on the Ukraine discussion and really to why NATO is needed at all. Sweden applying is only ridiculous in the aspect that NATO has outlived its purpose.

As for the UN piece: sigh I posted both the UN Charter and the NATO charter. I even pointed out the extreme similarities between the two. I get that your “understanding” of them trumps the facts, but I will not debate your understanding when I have posted the facts.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws “Russia is getting FUCKED up. ” All the more reason for NATO to be disbanded. Russia is battling Ukraine which is not a NATO nation. So if Russia is so horrible and is getting their asses handed to them by one nation, NATO has even less of a need to exist. So that brings us back to Trump’s comment. Does it matter?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 The answer is very simple: get rid of NATO or get rid of the UN. You don’t need both. I opted for getting rid of NATO as it is obsolete and a much narrower version, but I’m open. There are plenty of things wrong with the UN as well that should have the USA (and really any major nation) bailing out. But that is another question.

If you want to keep both then Trump’s comment really was correct, though a bit crudely put. The NATO Pact has criteria. The world expects the USA to uphold their side of that pact but many of the other Pact members are not. Yet they expect the USA to protect them because of the pact they, themselves, are ignoring.

Here’s a thought for you, since you brought it up: If Russia decided to attack Alaska, would Canada rush to the aid of the US? Would all of the NATO nations? We wouldn’t know until it happened, but I’m betting not. Everyone would do what they always do and expect the USA to deal with issues by themselves. Ukraine is a perfect example. Many jellies on these pages are up in arms because of what Trump said about NATO and are using the invasion of Ukraine as an example. Yet how much have each of the NATO nations actually contributed to Ukraine to aid them? Here is a visual of nations that have supplied aid to Ukraine and what type of aid it was. And this is the list of NATO Nations. No maybe I’m wrong, but it looks like on 13 nations have contributed to the war in Ukraine, and 3 of the contributors were not NATO nations. But there are 31 NATO nations listed. And if you look, the USA contributed more than every other country combined. This is a stark visual of how the world looks at us and why NATO is bogus. No look at Trump’s comment. There are 31 NATO nations and about ⅔ of them couldn’t be bothered with helping out in what you are all considering a NATO issue.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 “Russia is battling Ukraine which is not a NATO nation”

They’re still an ally. If Russia invaded Japan, would we just abandon our allies the way you’re advocating we do for Ukraine?

@seawulf575 “So if Russia is so horrible and is getting their asses handed to them by one nation, NATO has even less of a need to exist”

NATO’s primary function is to act as a deterrence to a Nuclear first strike via mutually assured destruction. If you attack one, you attack all. It has served to prevent wars of conquest since WW2. Russia still has nukes (a lot of them) and they’ve recently threatened first strikes. The necessity for nuclear deterrence is vital.

All of this is basic history, I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws The entire question concerns Trump’s views of NATO. Ukraine may be an ally, but they aren’t NATO. Mexico is an ally, but they aren’t NATO either. If they were attacked, though, and asked for help, we’d give it. But we aren’t committed to do so. NATO is a commitment, one many of the signatory nations aren’t meeting.

As for NATO’s primary function, I posted the North Atlantic Treaty, the charter for NATO. No where in there is nuclear mentioned as the purpose. Nowhere. In fact, if anyone were to actually go back and read it (the reason I post it) they would find that everything I have been saying is spot on. NATO isn’t separate and does not replace the UN. It actually states that if there is an attack on one of the nations of the treaty then they and the other nations can take whatever immediat action is required to stop the immediate threat. But they still have to report to the UN Security Council.

All of this is in print, easily viewed and understood. I’m not surprised you are not familiar with it.

Demosthenes's avatar

NATO is a Cold War relic that was extended beyond the end of the Cold War to artificially continue a level of tension that doesn’t need to exist. I don’t care about Trump disparaging it or its members; frankly I’d like to see it dissolved.

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes You get a GA from me! Mark it on the calendar!

Kropotkin's avatar

@Demosthenes Lots of things wrong with NATO and the geopolitics of the “west” in general, but that is hardly articulated by Trump, who only reveals his own ignorance of NATO and consequently undermines more legitimate criticism of NATO by his own stupid remarks.

seawulf575's avatar

@Kropotkin This is not the first time Trump has mentioned the problems with NATO. The first I remember was back in 2019. He has pointed out many different aspects that negatively impact us as well as the loss of need for the Treaty.

mazingerz88's avatar

From Time Magazine

Admiral Stavridis (Ret.) was the 16th Supreme Allied Commander at NATO and is Vice Chair, Global Affairs at The Carlyle Group and Chair of the Board of the Rockefeller Foundation.

He is the co-author of 2034: A Novel of the Next World War. His new nonfiction book is To Risk It All: Nine Conflicts and the Crucible of Decision

———-

Very few Americans could find tiny Montenegro on a map. Fewer still could offer a cogent description of the differences between Slovenia and Slovakia.
Most can’t name the three Baltic countries.

Yet thanks to Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s charter, which was signed 70 years ago in Washington, every American is bound by law to defend with blood and treasure each of those nations, and 22 others to boot.

To many who lived through the Cold War, the alliance may seem like an obvious good deal. By binding Europe’s democracies together, NATO decreased the chances of the brutal conflicts that dominated the continent through the end of World War II.

NATO provided a strong counterweight to Russia, and communism more broadly, helping defeat that ideology virtually without firing a shot. And when the U.S. went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, the NATO allies went with us in their first and only exercise of Article 5.

Most of all, for decades NATO–the alliance for which I was Supreme Allied Commander from 2009 to 2013–was America’s forward operating base for democracy, embodying shared values that were worth defending and even dying for.

But the Cold War is long over, and new challenges require clear thinking, not nostalgia. Originally conceived, as its first leader, Lord “Pug” Ismay, quipped, “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down,” what exactly does NATO exist to do now?

Its expansion to the tiny countries named above raises legitimate questions of common purpose and shared values. Russia is back and playing a much subtler role in undermining and threatening the organization. China’s emergence as America’s most powerful global competitor makes NATO seem anachronistic.

Is the alliance, as President Donald Trump called it, “obsolete”? The short answer is no.

Many of the American interests it served in the Cold War are still advanced by NATO today, and walking away from the alliance will likely cost us more than staying and strengthening it.

That shared fate is being celebrated in early April as NATO marks its 70th anniversary in Washington with events including an address by its Secretary-General to a joint session of Congress. But to save the alliance and advance the democratic values it was founded to defend, its leaders must take aggressive, creative action.

The fact is, NATO is in trouble.
The original alliance was optimized for the lengthy, bipolar Cold War and had a relatively simple mission: stop the Soviets. It was a very costly approach that required massive expenditures on troops in Europe–around 400,000 at one point, compared with 62,000 today.

But with only a dozen original members and a few added along the way, NATO was relatively tight in both size and mission.

After the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, NATO 2.0 began with a breath of optimism, sometimes described as a “new world order,” with the U.S. firmly in the driver’s seat and the alliance reaching out in friendship to the former Warsaw Pact countries–including to the Russian Federation.

This was a sort of springtime in European security when the idea of a Europe “whole and free” and at peace, as then President George H.W. Bush envisioned it, felt distinctly possible.

But a combination of Russia’s increasing resentment as its former allies joined NATO and the global drama of the 9/11 attacks created a new reality.
At the same time, NATO 2.0 began conducting counterterrorism and antipiracy campaigns in Iraq, Libya, the Horn of Africa and Syria, either through formal alliance missions or close cooperation among alliance members.

These “out of area” operations became increasingly controversial and damaged not only the popularity of the alliance with other countries but also political cohesion within it. I felt this constantly in Brussels as Supreme Allied Commander, briefing the leadership of the then 28 nations: the air and sea campaign in Libya truly split the alliance; the Afghan campaign, with its rising casualty count, appeared to be a quagmire; and, later, debates over whether to have a formal NATO mission in Syria, on the border of NATO member Turkey, led to difficult sparring matches in the North Atlantic Council, the governing body of the alliance.

It felt like the organization was fragmenting badly at the beginning of the second decade of the 21st century.

It was the avowed NATO hater Vladimir Putin, ironically, who revitalized the alliance and launched NATO 3.0. Russia’s invasion of Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014 gave new purpose to NATO.

I vividly remember attending an alliance meeting shortly after I took command in 2009 during which Chiefs of Defense of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania laid out a passionate, intelligence-based briefing on the possibility of Russian intervention in the Baltic countries.

I assessed it to be a very low probability at that moment, but in the years afterward, I became increasingly concerned. We updated our NATO defensive war plans, conducted significant training exercises and requested additional forces across the organization to maintain a higher level of readiness.

Putin’s subsequent actions, including the shooting down of a Malaysia Airlines jet over Ukraine and increased aggression in the air and on the high seas around NATO’s periphery, drew the alliance together.

But even as NATO reawakened, the challenge from outside was changing. Putin has practiced “hybrid warfare” against his neighbors, the would-be NATO members Georgia and Ukraine.

A lethal mixture of propaganda, social-network manipulation, cyberoperations, special forces and unconventional terrorist-like attacks poses a different kind of threat than the tanks and missiles of the Cold War.

Could Russia make a similar set of moves on a NATO ally?

Unlikely, but possible. And that threat only gets more difficult to counter with the advent of advanced military technology.

As the tools of offensive cyberwarfare continue to grow–making definitive attribution of an attack difficult to achieve–Russia might be tempted to subvert smaller NATO allies in the Baltics or the Balkans.

Doing so, Moscow might calculate, could create fissures in the alliance as the larger nations debate their willingness to fight for a tiny ally. Over time such a strategy could cleverly apply pressure to the real Achilles’ heel of NATO, its already shaky political will.

It would be a smart tactical move by Putin, who seems increasingly prepared to bet that the answer to the foundational question–Would you die for NATO?–is, for many, no.

President Trump is compounding that danger. He excoriated the alliance during the 2016 campaign and hectors the allies at every turn to increase their level of defense spending. That tactic admittedly has had some effect, as several allies have finally stepped up their spending to pledged levels.

But it comes at a cost, creating resentment and division in response to the President’s hostile and threatening tone. Worst of all, Trump himself has called into question America’s Article 5 commitment on multiple occasions, most recently with regard to Montenegro.

That creeping lack of common purpose poses perhaps the greatest risk to NATO. Signs of authoritarianism are already emerging in some of the allied nations, like Poland, Hungary and Turkey.

The looming danger of Brexit seems to cut against the core values of the alliance. And the abdication of NATO leadership by the U.S., which for so long stood as a standard of democratic governance for the world, threatens the foundation on which the alliance rests.

For all those harbingers of trouble, though, by many traditional measures, NATO remains extremely healthy.
It is powerful. The 29 nations of NATO produce more than 50% of the world’s gross domestic product, have well over 3 million troops on duty, operate massive combined naval fleets and air forces and together spend over $1 trillion on defense.

Indeed, even with all the frustration over European defense spending not hitting the 2% of GDP goal, the collective European defense budget is the second largest in the world after the U.S.’s and is ahead of China’s and Russia’s–combined.

It is smart. U.S. and European defense innovation and production provides a formidable military research and development capacity. Particularly in cybersecurity, unmanned vehicles, space operations, special-forces technologies, maritime and anti-submarine capability, and air and missile defense, NATO is a technology and education superpower.

It is capable. The alliance boasts a large command structure of highly qualified teams of military officers from all of the 29 nations.

Throughout Europe and the East Coast of the U.S., those teams prepare war plans, conduct training exercises, monitor readiness of allied units, gather intelligence about potential adversaries and run complex operations centers that cover the entire geographic range of NATO.

These standing staffs, which we rationalized by reducing them 35% while I was NATO commander, can conduct prompt and sustained combat operations in a coalition structure on short notice.
Just as important as NATO’s health is the fact that we still need it.

Geography matters, and the European peninsula is particularly well located on the western edge of the Eurasian landmass. When I was the Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, people would say to me, “Why do we need all those useless Cold War bases?” My reply was simple: They are not Cold War bases but rather the forward operating stations of the U.S. in the 21st century. When necessary, they allow us to operate in the Middle East and Africa. But they primarily serve as a bulwark: NATO is not global in its scope, scale or ambition and will remain tightly focused on the North Atlantic.

Moreover, despite all the frustrations of coalition warfare, most observers would agree with Winston Churchill that “there is only one thing worse than fighting with allies, and that is fighting without them.” The greatest single advantage the U.S. has on the global stage is our network of allies, partners and friends. That network is under deliberate pressure: from China, with its “One Belt, One Road” competitive strategy, and from Russia, with its relentless attacks on coalition unity. A strong NATO means not only having allies in a fight, should it come to that, but also a powerful deterrent to the aggression of ambitious adversaries.
Perhaps NATO’s greatest accomplishment is not even its unblemished record of deterring attack against its members but rather the fact that no alliance nation has ever attacked another. NATO’s most fundamental deliverable has been peace among Europe’s major powers for 70 years after two millennia of unhesitating slaughter on the continent. The disasters of the 20th century alone pulled the U.S. into two world wars that killed more than half a million Americans.

History provides few achievements that compare to those seven decades of peace. They were built not on the ambitions of cold-eyed leaders but something more noble. NATO is a pool of partners who, despite some egregious outliers, by and large share fundamental values–democracy, liberty, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, gender equality, and racial equality.

Admittedly we execute those values imperfectly, and they are stronger in some NATO countries than in others. But they are the right values, and there is no other place on earth where the U.S. could find such a significant number of like-minded nations that are willing to bind themselves with us in a defensive military treaty.

So what can NATO do to ensure the alliance continues to provide value for all the members in general, and for the U.S. in particular? What would a NATO 4.0 look like?
The alliance should up its game in cybersecurity, both defensively and in the collective development of new offensive cybertools. Geographically, the alliance needs more focus on the Arctic; as global warming opens shipping lanes and access to hydrocarbons, geopolitical competition will increase. We should taper off the Afghan mission, perhaps maintaining a small training cadre in country and continuing to help the Afghan security forces push the Taliban to negotiate peace.
There is work to do in consolidating the Balkans, where tensions among Serbs, Croats and Balkan Muslims threaten to erupt into war again. NATO can continue to have a small mission there to help continue the arc of reconciliation.

The alliance will need to be forthright in dealing with Russia, confronting Putin where we must–in its invasion and continued occupation of Ukraine–but at the same time attempting to reduce operational tensions and find zones of cooperation.

Geographically, the biggest challenge ahead will be the Middle East. The NATO nations do not agree on an approach with Iran, which is an aggressive actor in the region with significant ambitions that will impact NATO. Developing better partnerships with the Arab world, which began in earnest with the Libyan campaign and continued into Syrian operations against the so-called Islamic State alongside various NATO allies in the U.S.-led coalition, makes sense. Working far more closely with Israel would pay dividends for the alliance.

And what of other tiny, would-be members, the next Montenegros? NATO should accept North Macedonia to stabilize the south Balkans, then halt expansion. It should build global partnerships with democracies like Japan, Australia, New Zealand, India and other Indo-Pacific nations.
Should we be prepared to fight and die in a NATO campaign? Yes. On balance, the alliance still provides strategic benefit to the U.S. We should support this venerable organization, encourage our allies to increase their defense spending and push them to operate with us on key challenges. We should demand that they help us build a NATO 4.0 that is even more fit for the decades ahead.

We should also remember how dangerous the world can be. As NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander for four years, I signed more than 2,000 personal condolence letters; about a third of them were to the grieving family members of European soldiers.

I visited the thousands of non-U.S. troops in Afghanistan often, and they were uniformly brave, professional and motivated.
As a democracy, it is right that we should debate whether NATO is worth dying for. I can tell you that our NATO allies have shown time and again they are willing to fight and die for us.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 Too long to waste time with. What I did see is a guy that is part of the problem trying to defend his efforts.

NATO had a purpose at one time. That time is long gone. Times change, You should change with it. Isn’t that your stance on every SJW topic if someone like me dares to speak out against it?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Your reply is too short to matter.

You and your trump-turd it seems to me have your own sinister agendas in your desire to weaken or dissolve NATO. And I have a feeling you want to take the US in the same place where Putin himself wants it to be.

ragingloli's avatar

@mazingerz88
To be fair, that is how I treat all of his comments.

jca2's avatar

Now we have concerns about Russia having a space-based nuclear weapon that will disable our satellites: https://www.reuters.com/world/what-is-space-based-nuclear-weapon-us-says-russia-is-developing-2024-02-15/

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 What will Biden do about it!?!? It’s a crisis! Isn’t the POTUS supposed to take charge in situations like this?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Well . . . . @seawulf575 should Biden NUKE “EM ?

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575 They’re not going to talk about what they’re doing about it. It wouldn’t be too smart to reveal those details, would it?

ragingloli's avatar

@jca2
Clearly what Biden should do is appease Putin. Get down on his knees, wrap his geriatric tongue around the cyrillic member, and, with his mouth full of neo-soviet cock, profusely apologise for “threatening Russia”, while his 81 year old drool runs down the shaft, and his shivering, wrinkly skeleton hand, passes Putin a note stating “you can have Alaska back.”
It is what the Orangutan would do.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Navalny’s dead. trump-turd’s more terrified of Putin now he’s ready to do all that!

ragingloli's avatar

@ragingloli
With Russia, I am wondering how long he has already been dead.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 “Isn’t the POTUS supposed to take charge in situations like this?”

To @Tropical_Willie‘s point, how would you like to see Biden “take charge” against Putin in circumstances like this? IMO it would be sending Ukraine even more potent weapons to help deplete his military resources, but maybe you have a better idea?

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 Giving details is not always necessary and generally not advisable. But talking about it, addressing it, yeah…he ought to do that. To say they are in discussions with Russia about it might help. What he said was that he hopes they don’t do anything. Yeah, hope is a great strategy. Hope in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up faster.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws Huh. So let me see…Russia has a system that could knock out all our satellite capabilities, effectively making our defenses useless. So antagonizing him by adding arms to his adversaries would probably make him say “Gee, guess I can’t use it now!”, ya think? But here’s the key…I’m not POTUS. I’m not the Commander-in-Chief. I don’t get paid the big bucks to make these decisions. But given what he just said live, it sounds like he doesn’t want to do anything. Think that is the right move?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 “Jab with the left ‘round-hous’” with the right !”

WTAF would think he should do drop a couple nukes on Moscow . . . how about more F-16’s to Ukraine ? I would double up on arms to the Ukrainians the are trashing Putin Navy and Putin is bringing out 1950s and 1960s tanks because he has lost so many newer tanks.

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SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Tropical_Willie The Rep/cons answer is just let Putin have Ukraine and move on, at least the states won’t have to pay for any more aid going to them.

ragingloli's avatar

@SQUEEKY2
Because appeasement worked so well before.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Exactly they said he would stop after Crimea ,and see how well that worked out.

ragingloli's avatar

I actually meant the guy who did not stop after Czechia and Poland.

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seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 “The Rep/cons answer is just let Putin have Ukraine and move on,” Yet when confronted with the new satellite killing strategy from Russia, what was Sleepy Joe’s answer on it? Hope they don’t use it. Yep, there is a solid strategy to oppose Russia. Just hope they don’t take action. I’m sure that the words coming out of Joe’s mouth are somehow Trump’s fault or put there by the horrible fright-wingers though, right?

kritiper's avatar

Trump is a total nut case. A real kook.

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