Should the US government ban Tik Tok?

I think it should be banned, but the “China paranoia” reason for banning it is stupid. It should be banned because it rots people’s brains (especially children). Let’s ban X/Twitter next.

Of course not.

I’d rather see a ban on media that is objectively more harmful and dangerous (corporate media, like NY Times, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc).

I think it should be banned because the CCP is harvesting a lot of data on there so unless Tiktok is bought out it is going to be like the Opera gx browser.

They shouldn’t explicitly ban Tik Tok, but the data harvesting should be criminalized.

@gorillapaws that is a good idea but how can the data harvesting be criminalized if the data harvesting is in another country?

In my opinion, the world would be better off without it.

YouTube is what’s important, to me.

The data shit, I always suspected, and would love for the perpetrators to be punished severely.

At any rate, we are learning that we cannot trust the Chinese in almost any scenario. Unfortunately.

@KRD What about the Opera gx browser?

@Zaku The browser’s parent company is located in China and they have been known to collect users data and selling it.

@KRD Thanks!

I believe the US government has been trying to work with TikTok to have the ties to China cut…have the company become a stand alone company that can keep the app alive and well. That effort, as could be predicted, has not been accepted. To have an app available to millions and millions of Americans that is feeding information right into the CCP is a threat to everyone. The effort to get rid of it makes sense from a national security aspect.

If it’s a real threat to US security ban it. Congress wants the company to sever ties with bad players in China. Can’t see why not. US security first before anything else.

Generally I’m against any bans. That being said TikTok doesnt stop with your profile and posts, it digs further into your third party apps. That seems more like an invasion of privacy but seems like it should still be an individual choice.
Browsing hiatory, location and biometrics are the national security concerns based on what I’ve read. Why should I (or the govt) care if some random in China knows I’m at home?

Yes, it should absolutely be banned from operating in the United States. No company under the direct supervision of a murderous authoritarian dictatorship has any place in America, especially not one with such power over the imaginations of the people. Assume the worst from the worst people. It looks like it’s destroying society; that’s probably what it’s designed to do.

Hell no. People should be free to do what they want. And if Tik Tok is banned it will hurt a lot of artists and other musicians.

This is a slippery slope.

Activists that use Tik Tok and other such sites will lose the ability to disseminate information and gather together across the country/world to plan and strategize. It’s interesting that this is taking place in an election year.

Also, whether we think it’s stupid or not, a lot of people make a living from Tik Tok. Those people will lose their income, and as with the close of any industry, that unemployment can effect the whole country.

I’m curious as to why another company has not invented a similar platform to take it’s place, if indeed the Chinese government is the problem. Personally, I’m more worried about Chinese balloons flying over the country than the Chinese government data mining (which happens here anyway) what is primarily a bunch of teenagers.

https://reason.com/2024/03/13/tiktoks-opponents-want-chinese-style-censorship-in-america/

I did see an outpouring of Americans complaining about this being their career.
I selfishly did not think about them. It’s tempting to opine that a “content creator,” was never a “real” job.

@Caravanfan Can’t people still just use YouTube?
I guess that means less exposure. But YouTube has an algorithm that takes me to artists I’ve never heard of before.
Some of the best videos, only have a couple hundred views.

@Caravanfan That is exactly what activists will have to face if this passes.

@MrGrimm888 “Can they just use YouTube”? Because their target demographic are on TikTok and they’re trying to make a living.

I look at tictok occasionally. But it’s like on my YouTube homepage. I don’t have the app.

Is it different on the app?
Why wouldn’t the same demographic watch YouTube if tictok wasn’t around?

@tinyfaery – activists are only free to disseminate information as far as the CCP will allow it. You cannot use a tool crafted and owned by an authoritarian dictatorship to do good. It will only be allowed to fulfill the needs of the party. It is not only that the party mines your data, it is that it is able to influence how you think, and it has specific agendas, and those agendas are pro-authoritarian, pro-party, anti-freedom.

As far as any argument for creative freedom – an alternative platform with real freedom, guaranteed by American law rather than Chinese promises would do all the same jobs, without undermining democracy and the hope of a free and peaceful world.

I mean, get all the CCP influence out of media, but start with the low hanging fruit.

@Caravanfan YouTube is way better. It has shorts, music, long form content, live streams, movies, and TV. TikTok only has short videos that are a minute at the most. You can go live but it is the size of a phone screen.

@KRD I know what yotube is, and I know what TikTok is. I personally don’t use TikTok and I use Youtube, but a lot of artists do use Tiktok, and that’s where they get their income. Gen Zers generally prefer it.

Facebook, Twitter (X), YouTube, Instagram, SnapChat, Reddit, Pinterest, etc are all outlets for creativity. But social media outlets come and go. Remember MySpace? Friendster? GoogleWave? Even AOL? Those are gone. While researching I came across This website. 116 social media sites I’ve never even heard of but are up-and-comers. If they get rid of TikTok, there will be dozens more growing. It is the way of the tech world. If “influencers” get their TikTok banned, they will show up somewhere else.

Oh please. I am a part of that activist community and we do just fine. For now.

Aren’t there activist communities which are not only dangerous, but downright evil? They use social media to get the word out to those interested in their causes as well as to each other to plan events like January 6th – groups like the proud boys, last sons of liberty, oath keepers and others like them.

I agree with Republican Tom McClintock

“The answer to authoritarianism is not more authoritarianism,” said Rep. Tom McClintock, R-Calif. “The answer to CCP-style propaganda is not CCP-style oppression. Let us slow down before we blunder down this very steep and slippery slope.”

Governments shouldn’t ban anything without good reasons and I’ve yet to hear a good reason for banning Tik Tok.

@tinyfaery – well, if you feel happy securing your democracy with the tools provided by a murderous authoritarian dictatorship, you do you.

@flutherother: the basic arguement:
1. China is a muderous, paranoid, dictatorship who actively use and develop new tools of digital surveillance and oppression to undermine movements, conversations, research, words and thoughts that might threaten their hold on absolute power.

2. China projects it’s power across the world, actively trying to undermine western style decomcratic governance, and generally supporting authoritarians across the world.

3. China exercise absolute party control of business activities within their borders. All CEOs are directly answerable to the party and the police state apparatus.

4. TikTok is popular and ubiquitous, and controlled by the above mentioned muderers.

5. Because there is no difference between the actions taken by a Chinese company and the actions of the murderous authoritarian dictatorship known as the the CCP, you must assume the worst of intentions from these companies, always.

Therefore, TikTok’s popularity and ubiquity present a national security threat, basically because you can not trust the government of China.

I don’t trust the government of any country, even, or especially my own.

@flutherother – “everyone is the untrustworthy, therefore, I will support murderous authoritarian dictatorships.”

This is, of course, one argument a person can make. Not mine, personally, but it is one.

^^There it is in a nutshell, what the CCP wants Americans to be. Wary of their own goverment.

It will be sad indeed if and when China grabs Taiwan, the Philippine Sea…Tik Tok dependents simply shrugging their shoulders.

I was listening to a radio program yesterday and they were talking about this topic. They were saying there are studies being done on the effects of the short videos that are shown on Tik Tok on kids’ brains. The short – 30 second to 1 minute or whatever the length is, videos, over and over and over may have a detremental affect on kids’ attention spans.

Also, they said the algorithm will bad stuff on kids, which is bad for their mental health. For example, if a kid watches cutting videos, where kids cut themselves, the algorithm will show them more and more of that. This was also a segment on a news show, maybe 60 Minutes?

^^The algorithms are a big problem on social media. One POV of the world is constantly in your face. Warps people’s perception of the world.

I’m with @Demosthenes. I’m glad I never went down that rabbit hole. I’m tired of seeing TikTok videos shared on my FB feed. If I wanted to see them I’d join TikTok. M sons age in range of 20–31 and they’ve never joined either.

I wouldn’t be sad to see it disappear.

@Smashley ” you do you.” That’s exactly right. You do you. It shouldn’t be the government telling you what you can and cannot do for this issue.

relevant

@hat provided a link that is absolutely correct.

relevent

And it’s rare that I agree with Rand Paul

I look forward to reading the links from @hat and @Caravanfan.

There’s a lot of talk about this in the news, both pro and con.

It seems Trump is for keeping Tik Tok, so if he gets elected, I don’t know what would happen.

I did see that Trump said something about Facebook being evil, within the past day or two, and so their stock went way down.

^^One of the links seems to point out to deaths in Palestine.

TikTok is either a threat or not a threat to US national security. But Americans being Americans, everyone thinks differently as to what is and what is not a threat. And also in how to define “US national security.”

Looks like the push against Tik Tok is a bipartisan effort by elected representatives? If true, isn’t that something.

The CCP is probably delighted US citizen / TikTok dependents don’t give a shit when their elected reps are trying to protect the country, especially when their beloved social media app is at stake.

@Smashley We have a murderous regime operating in front of our eyes right now and the indiscriminate murder is why I can’t support it. Tik Tok on the other hand hasn’t killed anyone.

I never joined Tik Tok because I heard the Chinese owned it when I first heard of it. That was about 7 years ago I think.

I don’t think it should necessarily be banned. We need to make laws about social media in general, not just Tik Tok, regarding how they mine data and the algorithms that not only send us the same type of videos over and over, but also the way social media purposely uses addiction techniques.

@flutherother – wow. China and the US governments are morally equivalent? I can’t even. TikTok has absolutely killed people, btw. (Just Google the app plus the word “suicide”). You are basking in the glow of western values, and have become naive to the harsh realities of not having freedom of speech, property, thought or assembly, with no legal recourses or accountability and black bags for those who disagree with the system.

@hat – it’s an interesting opinion piece. Personally, I’ve been against TikToks allowed existence from the start. They should have nipped it in the bud when it came on. I think there probably is some element of the reaction to Israel’s war that has brought Democrats into agreement with Republicans. (Who are certainly not pursuing this to provide Biden with moral cover going into the election). I think the author is too quick to start framing this act as dystopian, and far too quick to breeze past the actual dystopia of China. The only mention of the government who’s intentions and actions are yet again under suspicion for actively harming people around the world, is that people have a “lizard brain” reaction to it. Way to distract from what the issue is actually about.

@Caravanfan – that was sarcasm. I wasn’t expecting anyone to say, “thank you, after careful consideration, I find that my vision for the future can only be achieved using a toolset provided to me by a murderous, digitally focused, authoritarian, dictator”. If someone does want to take this perspective to heart, then “you do you” is a kinder way of saying “shut your mouth and never open it near me again,”

TikTok is so replaceable. Perhaps American law will prevent the mainlining of curated emotions and it will never be the drug it was again, but sharing short videos is a technology that isn’t going away. TikTok has a strong network effect at this time, but its fundamentals are rotten. A better network should be possible (unless the format is only profitable when actively hacking people’s minds, which is also possible)

@hat – to clarify, I think the piece is mostly right, but half true, if you get my meaning? Like, it is worth acknowledging that these motivations are out there and that politics makes strange bedfellows, but it isn’t as much of the big picture as the article suggests. Republicans want a stronger anti-China policy, but the kids fucking love TikTok, so Democrats weren’t on board even if there is a lot of China agreement in principle. The article may rightly identify what pushed the issue over the top.

Of course, all these things can be true, and it could still also be a Chinese influence campaign designed to undermine western confidence in their form of governance.

Facebook fueled a genocide in Myanmar, but the negative thing we remember it for is “Russiagate”. All these platforms have the potential to facilitate evil. But it is interesting that TikTok is showing the reality of the genocide in Palestine and that’s making that those at the top (who already opposed it) very uncomfortable. (I still wouldn’t be sad to see it go, but I also don’t think it’s likely to happen; there will be many legal challenges to a ban).

So basically, my phone was never trying to make me hate China.

@Demosthenes – that is one narrative. It is not the only reasonable one. It could also be the case that the story is being deliberately told to Americans in one way, through TikTok, because it suits the Communist Party, resulting in the whataboutism folks like @flutherother pull when faced directly with the unprecedented scale and evils of the CCP global power apparatus.

@MrGrimm888 – I’m sure parts of it were.

I don’t think it should be banned but platforms that host it should block it from gathering intel on users. That’s pretty hard to do considering the content itself is also intel. Basically, use at your own risk. Our cybersecurity people banned it and flat-out tell us it’s an intel gathering agent. What tiktok does is not special, it’ll be imitated quickly. I view it like RT news which is blatantly attempting to inject propaganda into our media. Tiktok does this in a more subtle, secondary way but its primary intention is intel.

@Blackwater_Park I know the US government banned it from all government use.

I also heard on some news show that you shouldn’t purchase any cheap Chinese cell phones from Amazon or anywhere, because they basically will gather all of your info in a similar fashion the way Tik Tok does, internally, from your phone and apps. Before hearing that, I never even knew there are/were cheap Chinese cell phones but it makes sense, since China replicates everything, every product, cheaper than elsewhere.

@jca2 Or cheap webcams that require you to load software, media streaming devices or anything that connects to your wifi etc…etc…China makes some very good, high quality cellular phones but I don’t trust them either. We all know our own gov’t is spying on us also, which I’m not completely ok with but I’m really not ok with China doing it.

@Smashley The CCP wins if Tik Tok ownership survives and remains intact as is here in the US.

What would give them that win?
American Democracy where citizens’ opinions have power. Already the CCP has reason to celebrate. With TikTok addicts and dependents pushing back against a ban.

@mazingerz88 – I think I agree but I’m trying to follow. Are you saying the way to combat CCP influence is to pull back on democracy? If so, it’s touchy ground, but I’m not fundamentally against somewhat less democracy. No system is a pure democracy anyway, and democracy is not the single component of western political values.

my fourteen years here have not given me enough clout to avoid such a broke-ass accusation.

No, they really don’t, do they?

What I see is Western insecurity about the existence of a multi-polar world, the actual destabilizing desire to continue the cold war, and the projecting of western instability onto sabotaging foreign actors when our own internal systems are to blame for their own failures. China is not the reason we have Trump (again I don’t actually like TikTok, I think it’s pretty shit, but no more shit than Facebook or Twitter).

You talk about the paranoia of the Chinese regime, yet it’s difficult to get more paranoid than this reaction to TikTok (although the “Chinese balloon incident” of last year likely tops it for all-out idiocy). Congress can’t be assed to agree on anything, but when it comes to “China bad”, you can be sure they’ll act quickly. Just the fact that we’re viewing every U.S. action in terms of “but is it a win for China?” shows how mired we are in this nonsense.

My daughter just sent me a TikTok video of a cat riding a roomba.
Two days ago she sent me a TikTok video of a dog tunneling under a quilt.

Yes, the Chinese have clearly taken over her brain.

When the US Congress had the hearing with the CEO of TikTok they didn’t even let him finish a sentence. I don’t even know if we have a real understanding of the risks compared to other social media. Can’t China possibly hack people online anyway?

The CEO is from Singapore by the way. Educated in London and at Harvard.

@JLeslie And way smarter than Tom Cotton.

I just looked at the list of representatives that voted for and against the bill. I am disappointed the my local representative (who I have met and liked) voted for it.

@Caravanfan I wish I knew more about how big a risk it really is. As I said above, when I first found out about Tik Tok I knew it was owned by China. I think I first heard of it on a 60 Minutes segment or some other news show. I decided then not to use it. So, my personal tendency is to not take the risk, but the government completely banning it is a whole other ball game. I just don’t know enough, and it feels like a slippery slope. Although, I do think we need to “censor” some of what comes across social media. Difficult topic for me, I have a lot of conflicting thoughts.

@JLeslie All social media is a risk. Facebook and Google know everything about you. Your internet browsing history is mined and pop-up ads are tailored to your interest. That is nothing new. It doesn’t matter if the company is owned by a US or Chinese company—they’re all amoral and interested in one thing, your eyeballs. The fact that TikTok is going to be banned is a political ploy that ignores the real problem of income inequity and trade inequity. They don’t really care about Chinese influence becuase they are tweeting their outrage on their iphones that are made in, guess where?

@Caravanfan I feel it is a political ploy and used by media companies for ratings. Fear sells and fear motivates voters and fear ironically unites people too.

@Smashley No not pulling back on democracy. But what seems to be “pure US democracy” is working out well for the CCP’s agenda right now.

What we need are more leaders better able to persuade and effectively explain to young TikTok addicts and adult TikTok business users who are against the ban as to why TikTok’s ownership is a threat to their country’s security. There is no real concerted effort that could get the urgent reality of it across…effectively.

@mazingerz88 Okay, persuade and effectively explain to me why me watching Tik Tok videos of cats riding roombas is a threat to my country’s security, and additionally why is it any more of a threat than, say, Facebook hosting right wing groups that are actually hate groups?

^^You want specifics based on what, scientific studies?

Think much more beyond TikTok as a mere popular addictive app, imagine how the CCP could learn from and use the data from TikTok users’ accounts along with their extended behaviour patterns…then use all that knowledge to guide them in making and implementing their anti-US global policies.

TikTok as an app might not necessarily be a threat, who owns it might very well be. But if you don’t see the CCP as being any threat to the US, then read @Smashley‘s post above and maybe that might convince you.

@mazingerz88 You’re the one who said “persuade and effectively explain”. I assumed you had something to do that but apparently not. I read @Smashley and besides vague correlation accusation. 1) China Sucks. 2) Tik Tok owned by China, 3) therefore Tik Tok sucks. (even though CEO isn’t Chinese, but whatever, let’s not put facts in evidence because facts are inconvenient to the political narrative)

Why not say, 1) China sucks. 2) Apple products made in China, 3) Apple sucks.

Or 1) China Sucks, 2) “The Three Body Problem” is a Netflix series taken from the novel of a Chinese author, 3) Netflix sucks

I could go on with even more ridiculous examples.

^^I said we need more leaders to better explain…by leaders I meant our elected reps in Congress and Senate. They are the ones who get official reports from the FBI, Pentagon and other security analysts as to the specifics of why TikTok’s ownership is a threat to US security.

@mazingerz88 Okay. Well if they say something actually persuasive that is verifiable that justifies a governmental ban then I will be interested in seeing it. Until then my view is that this is just a cynical political ploy for cheap political points. This is the kind of action fascist regimes do—ban things they don’t agree with.

^^Maybe call your Rep’s office and if he or she is pro-ban inquire as to why exactly?

@mazingerz88 I don’t know him that well. I only met him once. I do know his predecessor pretty well (I’ve gone sailing with him) so if I see him I’ll ask him his opinion even though he is retired.

On my homescreen on YouTube, the places that used to be tictok are now “YouTube shorts.”

Could someone explain what the difference would be?

@Caravanfan – if simplistic concepts are all that you can take, and are what you must reduce my arguments too, I’ll clarify and condense my argument more accurately, though I thought I’d been clear.

1) Chinese government sucks. Like SUCKS. 1984 shit. Look it up.
2) Chinese government can force any company within its borders to do what it says.
3) TikTok is owned by a Chinese based technology firm.
4) Therefore, there is nothing stopping the Chinese government from using the platform to do its 1984 shit. You can hope that they won’t, but trusting the Chinese government is a proven strategy for being taken advantage of.

And yes, Apple bad.

^^Why not make a law regarding all social media and what data it can collect, algorithms, etc. Don’t you think all social media has risks for the US public?

@JLeslie – that would be a good start, though algorithms are complicated, and I’m not sure congress is well up to the job right now. Collecting data is one thing, and how information is chosen for presentation to the public is another.

Social media companies are good to talk about. US based companies are obviously inflicting harm upon the population with how social media presents information. We understand that these harms are the product of capitalism and profit seeking, in a poorly regulated, fast changing environment. When confronted with the CCPs global power apparatus, foreign influence campaigns, and a total domestic media controlling, slaving, surveillance state, with all power flowing to the dictator, is it really so hard to imagine that TikTok would be used to deliberately achieve political ends, rather than strictly financial?

@Smashley I absolutely believe TikTok is used for political ends. So is Facebook and X and other platforms. China is “in” all of those, but of course has more control over TikTok.

@JLeslie
More control” is actually “total control”. You can only function a business of that size within China under the direct supervision of the party. This is the real difference between Chinese platforms and ones operating under western law. We do shady shit too, but ultimately we have a system of laws and accountability, though imperfect, that underpins the entire modern free world. Even if someone wanted to, they can only exert limited influence, for limited periods of time before journalists or political opponents catch on to what they’re doing. In Red China, control is absolute, and there is no accountability. If the dictator wishes it so, it is so, and no one will ever look into it.

If foreign owned social media platforms are of no risk to national security, why does China ban all of them? They can monitor and censor anything behind their firewall, so these platforms are no more likely to produce political uprisings than domestic Chinese platforms. It must be that the CCP is concerned that a foreign owned app could be programmed for use against the party, that it could be weaponized to achieve political ends. Now, how in the hell could they possibly come up with that idea?

@Smashley What controls does the US have over China using bots and trolls or making apps or cute quizzes to prevent influencing or taking data from Americans?

I have said before that facebook works with CIA and FBI at times to find the sources of some of the most destructive elements on facebook, but if seems woefully inadequate, and my impression is facebook has no legal consequence for the stuff appearing on its platform.

As far as politics and scare tactics, it reminds me of “China virus” but now both sides of the aisle are reacting. I do think we should be worried about China, and Russia for that matter, but my only point is data is being mined in many ways and Americans are being influenced in many ways. It is what is being put on line that worries me most.

Free speech is a tricky thing. The last 7 years I have been wrestling with it.

@Smashley “If foreign owned social media platforms are of no risk to national security, why does China ban all of them?” So your reponse to this is for the US to start banning social media platforms? Doesn’t this make us more like China?

This is like if a boy named “Billy” came onto the playground and started throwing feces at people, and the response was to ban all boys named “Billy” on the playground instead of banning the trowing of feces at people.

@Caravanfan – that’s like saying “China has an army, therefore we should not”

In the modern world, there are certain common sense measures that every country interested in protecting its sovereignty should take. The CCP is well aware of what social media platforms are capable of, espionage and influence wise, and admittedly I wouldn’t put much past the CIA, and Mossad has been caught doing exactly this kind of stuff already, so the CCPs belief that this is a worthwhile area of focus is understandable. As far as domestic Chinese social media platforms go, there is absolutely a surveillance and influence network baked into the programming.

Why wouldn’t they use TikTok? Why do you believe that they won’t? How has the Chinese Communist Party earned so much of your trust?

@JLeslie – I absolutely agree. It all needs to be examined carefully. I’m hoping that TikTok will prove out as an extreme and foundational example, whereby we can begin to get a handle on social media companies, and properly regulate them.

@Smashley I think it’s more likely if the US bans TikTok the US goes back to ignoring the social media problem until something happens to make it politically useful again.

@JLeslie
We should set calendar alerts to check back in in a year, and confer on how it’s turning out.

@Smashley You seem to be missing my point. But that’s okay, you have your own internal narrative. But just let me clarify a few points of facts in evidence:

1) The Chinese government is a Communist authorotarian regime that suppresses dissent, participates in ethnic cleansing, and repressess minorities

2) Tik Tok is a social media company that may or may not be influenced by China, but whose CEO is from Singapore

That’s all you’ve got. Once again, I ask that you show some actual evidence that Tik Tok poses a national security threat. Something besides the vague McCarthy-style anti-Communist fear mongering. What is the threat? What justifies a ban, and how is it different than China banning social media companies because they don’t like the content?

As if I need the CCPs help to mistrust my government. lolol

Even the US government has no evidence that TikTok is nefariously controlled by the Chinese
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/16/tiktok-china-security-threat/

@Caravanfan – the CCP clearly has the ability to direct or influence the conduct of ByteDance. The CCP does use domestic social media platforms for influence and surveillance. The CCP is not your friend. Why are you so intent on leaving this particular vulnerability open? You don’t have to have evidence of an incoming bullet to decide wearing a vest is a good idea. It’s a bit of a paranoid way of thinking, but did you look into the 1984 shit? It’s like holy shit for real. The CCP is aggressive, and some prudence is warranted.

I direct you to the last line of your article
“Everybody’s doing it”

Exactly.

If by “Look into the 1984 shit” you mean “have I read George Orwell’s novel 1984?” The answer is yes, of course. Have you?

No everyone’s read that, silly.

I meant did you look into the any of the general conduct or demeanor of the CCP under Xi that so closely resembles the 1984 playbook? Did you read about Xi Thought, or the “unity in thought” campaign, or the firewall, or the social credit system, or the lack of a rule of law, or the prison system, or the treatment of minorities and foreign migrants. Did you read about government officials deployed to deploy visual blockades, preventing photography of protests, memorials and active humanitarian tragedies? Did you read about the fake rescue videos made by the state to tout its reaction after flooding villisges to protect Beijing this year, while simultaneously suppressing all coverage of the thousands of deaths that must have but officially didn’t happen?

If you did, you probably weren’t in China.

You still haven’t addressed my original question. You’re just throwing up metaphorical smoke right now.

If you are referring to your premise that to act in a way similar to China would make the west unacceptably Chinese, I have already dispensed of this notion. An army is not fundamentally Chinese, though China does have one. Protecting yourself from foreign influence and espionage is not a fundamentally authoritarian or dictatorial thing to do. In the end, it’s all about the manner you implement it. Western states enact laws under the authority of constitutions, and protect the people through diversification of power, as is the western tradition. Bad lawmakers are ultimately accountable to journalists, voters and the justice system. It’s never been perfect or pretty but it’s easily the best system out there. Of course there is an authoritarian concern with banning TikTok, as there is with all issues of national security, but we owe it to ourselves and our children to look at the situation clearly and soberly and not get caught up in hyperboles about how us banning TikTok if they don’t sell it to another company is somehow equivalent to the black bags we would get for talking this way in Mainland China.

The CCP doesn’t block western social media because they don’t like the content. They monitor and control content, with real time censorship and the specter of arrest for annoying the state. The content issue has been dealt with forever. They block western social media because they fundamentally do not trust the platforms, or those who run them. This is projection. They use social media platforms as a surveillance and influence apparatus. They are untrustworthy. We have our shameful moments, but there is really no comparison.

No. My original question was how does Tik Tok pose so much of a threat to national security that it must be banned? What is the evidence?

Potential and risk are enough. I have demonstrated that the CCP has both the power and the inclination to use TikTok as a tool of global surveillance and influence, and that their goals are deeply antithetical to our own. Given this vulnerability, why do you insist on waiting until after we have been victimized?

@Smashley because the Constitution protects civil liberties.

@Smashley As I posted above, “US democracy” itself gives the CCP advantage. And to some that advantage is not enough evidence of a threat.

@Caravanfan – so are you arguing that the CCP is a US citizen, or that “civil liberties” means the government has no power to create rules for the protection of society?

@Smashley No. I’m arguing that Americans should have a right to use whatever piece of software they want to, and if there is no proven reason why a piece of software should not be used then it should be available, despite any theoretical risk, if there is no proven actual risk.

Taking your argument to the extreme you would be okay with a US surveillance state where all phones are wiretapped and all email is monitored with AI listening in on conversation with flagging potential problematic content. Because, by your words, “potential and risk are enough.”

There is a proven actual risk.

And no, yours is not the logical conclusion of the act of preventing hostile foreign influence and espionage campaigns. The potential and risk stemming from a clearly hostile foreign power that does control a tool with a strong social and political influence, and deeply personal information penetration, is enough to ban it, if it does not conform to certain criteria. The potential and risk of free speech within America is not analogous to the potential and risk from the CCP. You cannot use the same argument to ban free speech within America.

OK. I’ll ask again. What is the proven actual risk?

That the CCP does use digital tools for influence and surveillance campaigns.
That TikTok is wholly beholdant to the CCP
That this presents a vulnerability that should be contained.
That we would do it, so why wouldn’t they?

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2024/03/the-plan-to-ban-tiktok-is-outright-xenophobia

That’s almost an argument, but I’ll read it.

Opening statement “baseless anti-Chinese hysteria”
We’re off to a good start.

I hope, at least to you @Caravanfan, that I’ve illustrated the bases sufficiently to deflect “baseless” but let’s move on.

The next paragraph sets up a history of American xenophobia. I bet I know where this is going! They’re going to say that mistrusting the Communist Party is the same thing as racism against the Han Chinese! Haven’t finished yet, just guessing,

In the end, this is just a big deflection piece. It speaks absolutely zero about the absolute international fuckery of the CCP and the documented ways they choose to project their power abroad, and their total and complete moral bankruptcy toward everyone, most notably the people unfortunate enough to live there.

The thrust of the article is that everything is just speculation, and frames every anti-CCP measure ever taken as evidence of racism and xenophobia. The article does so little to acknowledge what the CCP has actually been up to under Xi that it has absolutely no credibility. I won’t swear this piece was funded by the CCP, like it does countless other white monkeys, but it’s exactly why their influence campaigns exist.

Okay, clearly you don’t like left wing magazines. How about a right wing one?
https://reason.com/2024/03/14/tiktok-china-ban-federal-government-libertarians/

I’ve never heard of the publication, so I didn’t know its background when I wrote my last piece. I hope you have a better counterargument than “clearly I don’t like left wing magazines”

Are you arguing it’s racist, or that it’s unconstitutional or that it’s a slippery slope to becoming like the CCP?

But yes, I’ll read another thing.

@Smashley Yes. I’m saying that banning TikTok is a slippery slope to becoming authoritarian like the CCP. Finally you understand, thanks.

Wow. When Trump, Rand Paul, Tucker Carlson, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Elon Musk all agree on something, you know it must be right!

Your article at least acknowledges a portion of the threat that the CCP poses.

The point of the article is an objection about form: that the legislation proposed is too vaguely worded. This is a good point, and I hope it influences the legislation as it goes to the Senate. It does not, however, provide a good argument for choosing not to confront the threat of the CCP.

@Smashley Even a broken clock is right two times a day.

@Smashley – sure. I agreed with Trump about the need for direct CCP confrontation. I just don’t agree with the stance that he’s taken recently, when he decided he can peel off Democrats and young people with it.

Congressman Mike Gallagher’s take. https://youtu.be/0ZFPWLZ3fco?si=vK16qEWVOE6PMBik

@mazingerz88 I don’t have time to listen to a 45 minute podcast from Hoover institute. Can you give me a summary?

^^He mostly focused on Taiwan, China and the US. His take on TikTok came up only at the 19 minute mark up to 21.

@mazingerz88 Okay, I listened to the TikTok bit. Andrew Roberts asks the question about TikTok is the stuff that @hat was talking about. That it’s mostly pro-Palestinian. Gallagher then goes and talks about the same conspiracy theories that @Smashley talks about. Nothing new here. Then Roberts talks about a bill that he will vote on in the House of Lords that would ban foreigners from owning British newspapers (as if the House of Lords has any relevence whatsoever). That’s right wing xenophobic conspiracy nonsense there. But I’d expect nothing less from the reactionary Stanfurd Hoover institute.

^^Conspiracy theories?

Tik Tok is digitial fentanyl. CCP is conspiring to manipulate young people’s minds through Tik Tok, shit like that. But I only listened to those two or three minutes.

^^ Naturally. You refuse to engage with the real concerns of the moderate coalition of democrats and republicans who agree on this issue, and take refuge under the wings of the extremists of both parties. You insult and denigrate your fellow citizens, but you have no response. You do not convince us well that a foreign influence campaign is not affecting you. It could be indirect, of course like the cat video thing was so great it’s become a part of your identity, but even if not, you have few argument and zero rebuttals, yet seem to be on autopilot to defend the issue.

The last and possibly only point that you have had, that such a ban could start us upon a “slippery slope” towards tyranny, is notable, but ultimately is an identical argument anyone against any policy would make. This leads to that. It doesn’t. It can, if we have feckless leaders and a disengaged or uninformed citizenry, but this is why we have journalists, laws, courts and elections.

Freedom requires eternal vigilance. The house bill needs improvement, and so does messaging, but the main purpose congress is trying to achieve is necessary, if unfortunate.

We used to give the CCP the benefit of the doubt on these kinds of issues. There was money to be made and we figured capitalism makes friends and democracies. We were wrong.

Older folks might remember Tibet. Younger folks remember Hong Kong.

These places used to really exist. Today they are shadows, all but lost to history. Taiwan is on the menu next.

The CCP has locked their shit down like digital Stalin, and some of us are still trying to dance for them.

I hear all of the arguments but I keep coming back to the fact that cyber security experts I know and are acquainted with straight up tell me and anyone who asks not to use it at all.

@Blackwater_Park Why not? And I’m not being obstinant. I really want to know what the actual risk is. All I’ve heard is CCP can possibly be stealing your data or whatever. What is actually happening?

@Smashley I didn’t mean to insult anybody, I apologize if you felt that way.

@Caravanfan It’s primarily because of China from what little I understand. There are some other rules that are woven into this such as parts for critical infrastructure must not be from Chinese origin. They’re worried about supply chain attacks where equipment comes pre-infected with malware. Other exploits that are unknown etc.. Apps like tiktok can be used to direct and control various exploits. It can be hard to defend against. I don’t think they know for sure what all the risks tiktok poses or even if it does but they’re not taking chances. That’s about all I know. I’m sure it goes deeper than that. China and Russia are working hard to get into our infrastructure and frankly, they’re succeeding on some levels.

@Blackwater_Park With respect, that is a vague post with few specifics. What I’ve been asking for on this thread is evidence of actual, verifiable vulnerabilities by the TikTok app.

@Caravanfan I don’t think you’ll find specifics. Other than being a vector to launch exploits the main issue as far as I can tell is in the potential for this massive collection of data they’re amassing to fall into the hands of the Chinese gov’t. That concerns me, it should concern you. In that sea of cat videos and selfies, there is plenty of room to gather intel and spread influence.

@Blackwater_Park Gather intel to do what? Spread influence to do what? What intel are they gathering? What influence are they spreading? Exactly what justifies a ban?

You’re asking a larger geopolitical question about what China’s intent is around the world.

@Blackwater_Park No. I am asking why ban TikTok?

@Caravanfan Because it’s a potential data collection platform for China. A massive one. There need not be any other reason. You may want something beyond that, but I don’t and I’m not alone in this thinking. You really are asking a larger geopolitical question here.

Because “China bad”, @Caravanfan. What part of “China bad” don’t you understand? ;)

Ah….China bad.
Why didn’t they just say so?

So I’ll ask you, why shouldn’t we ban Tiktok?

Seriously?

Yes.

I’ve answered that question several times already. But I’ll do it again
In short

1) We have a Constitutional republic with a set of laws and a due process
2) When the government starts banning things for “national security” reasons without due process it is a big step towards authoritarianism and sets a horrible precedent
3) For better or for worse artists use TikTok as a source of income and banning them will repress their talent
4) TikTok is being used as a useful political football for cheap political points.
5) And there are other reasons, but I don’t want to go full Godwin on you.

1) Yes
2) No. The CCP is not a citizen, and neither is ByteDance. They are not afforded the protection of American law, so called “due process,” because they operate entirely outside of it. They are not accountable to it. They are not protected by it.
3)Yes. It is better, and it is worse. This part is the worse.
4)TikTok is being used for many things. Some make cheap arguments, some make good ones.
5)You just did.

Okay. So tell me what they are ACTUALLY doing that is so nefarious that the US Government should rip away income and sources of entertainment for millions of people?

Oh, and I will cede the Godwin thing. You should have seen what I originally wrote! :O

I have already answered this question, but if we must: The CCP is a fucking evil, digitally savvy and innovative, fucking evil, and in control of an app with deep penetration into American culture and society. Why do you need more than that? Because people like it, and artists use it? TikTok’s power as a platform for activism and entertainment has both been very high because of its massive global network, and low because of it’s censorship, and ultimate control by the Party. Yes, some people use it to make money, but I don’t think we owe our foreign policy to entertainers who saw dollar signs and not genocide in Xinjiang.

So I will say, I never said we should ban Tiktok, I said use at your own risk. But, if we end up banning it, we should start demanding domestic companies doing the same data collecting either stop, or be much more transparent about it. China does pose a larger existential risk to the United States.

I agree. We don’t need to ban TikTok, but we simply cannot trust the CCP at this point in time, and they control TikTok. I hope legislation like this is a good starting point for reigning in social media and foreign influence campaigns in general.

Well, we obviously appear to be at an impasse, although I’m happy to keep talking. To paraphrase a good friend on here who PMed me privately, You are willing to restrict you own freedom in order to ward off an attack on your…freedom. I am not.

Trite. I hope it serves you.

I’ll take the truth wherever I see it.

Aye, but how will ye know it when ye see it?

Here is a good article.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-03-14/what-would-banning-tiktok-accomplish-answer-virtually-nothing

I think this is one of those situations where quick, smart, and often snarky but too black and white sayings like “Those who would give up their freedom for comfort deserve neither” does not really apply. We shot down that Chinese spy balloon that had little national security risk. Of course people were mostly ok with it. Yet, we have a massive surveillance machine like TikTok on something so personal as your children’s smartphone and we are somehow ok with that because it’s conveniently in this special social media freedom box? I agree that the box is sacred and needs to exist but China should not be in it like this. Neither should giants like Google or Facebook, but that’s another matter.

No, it’s not another matter. It’s exactly the same thing. Google and Facebook are not bastions of good just because they have an American CEO. If you’re going to ban TikTok you have to ban Google, Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, etc. They are all owned by amoral companies that are interested in your eyeballs.

@Caravanfan Google and Facebook are not enemies of the state. They are the state. Of course it is different. Don’t be fooled into thinking otherwise.

@Blackwater_Park No, they’re not the state.
Once again, tell me with specific examples besides just general xenophobic anti-communist fear mongering, how TikTok is an enemy of the state.

^Playing devil’s advocate.
What if content is designed to shape minds?

It’s hard for me to tell someone, this is how you should feel.
Ordering someone to do something, isn’t the only way to get them to do what you want.

Exposing inconvenient truths about a subject, can make someone question their support for it.

Let’s say that I want you to start thinking more like a far-right conservative.
I could slip lots of little stories (true or not) into your algorithm to show you videos of illegal immigrants dealing drugs, stealing, and raping/killing people.

We learn through association.
The algorithm can tell if a story made you sad, or angry with our brown southern neighbors.
Once it learns how to emotionally manipulate you, it can.

Trump’s team has used such tactics often. They make ridiculous, often patently false claims about “deep states,” and “rigged voting machines.”

A lot of sheep passed the misinformation around, and truthful claims became less important than how many times someone says it.

It’s like an expert poker player, reading your every behavior, my understanding is that it is capable of manipulating you.
A great player knows how to look like they have a bad hand, when their actual cards are great. They can bluff, when they have nothing.
Because they are reading you.

There’s a famous psychiatric test where therapists show a patient images, to get ideas of how someone thinks.

Has it never occurred to you, that the same experiment is being played on you, when you watch tictok?
We’re providing someone with what makes us happy, sad, angry, violent, etc.

Sure. That’s all true, actually, but that’s true of every social media app, as well as your Google, Meta and Amazon advertisement hits. So Google, Meta, Amazon should all be banned by that logic. What makes TikTok any different, except for the fact that it’s major investor is Chinese and politicians like to hate on communists? Why are politicians so intent on taking a consumer choice away from people and allowing the Meta monopoly to increase? I can think of several cynical answers to that last question.

And just for the record, I don’t use TikTok. I have an account because I occasionally get linked to a TikTok video, but I don’t like the interface and otherwise never use it.

I’m certainly cynical enough to believe that all of those media platforms are run by someone bad, somewhere.

I think that the US has had a sort of come to Jesus moment, in the past 5–10 years. We have noticed that China is definitely more woven into our society than we presumed.

Most military analysts believe that war between the US and China, WILL occur in the next 5–15 years.
China has been very publicly aggressive in expansion, and they mistreat a lot if their own people.

Communism, isn’t just another flavor of government.
It is considered a detriment to modern society. It’s the reverse of what a democracy is supposed to be, where the government is supposed to serve it’s people.
Human rights violations, and all sorts of control is forced onto the civilian population.
Hundreds of thousands of people have been forcefully removed from rural areas where they lived for centuries, and the people have been sent to assimilation “schools.”

China’s empire is vast.
A lot of countries owe China high interest loans.
I have nothing but respect for China’s people. But it’s government, is “No Bueno.”

@MrGrimm888 Sure. This goes back to the “China Bad” argument a few hundred posts above. But you’re likely using a phone or a computer that has been partially assembled or manufactured in China. You could drive on a bridge with steel that was manufactured in China. You could be wearing shoes that have been made in China. Are you going to trash your computer, phone and shoes? Are you going to go the long way around to avoid the bridge?

What is it about TikTok that singles it out for banning?

Concern over China’s actions and posture is not xenophobic nor is it fear mongering.

I’m afraid I am not capable of differentiating rubber, from computer software, if you won’t see the difference.
My Trump sneakers ~ were made in China, but they aren’t going to mash the accelerator or brake in my truck.

I’m not saying that we should go to war with China.
If China invades Taiwan, we WILL jump in. It’s not like with Ukraine.
Taiwan is an important strategic, military, and trade ally.

China is designing their current military for direct confrontation with the US, and vice-versa.

@Blackwater_Park Sure. Be concerned. Fine. But why ban the app when there is no actual evidence that the app is dangerous? Could it be because Meta is pushing for a ban because it’s a direct competetor?

@MrGrimm888 Just as we designed our military for conflict with the USSR during the Cold War. That is nothing new. But what you wrote has nothing to do with TikTok.

^Like I said, it’s a current thing.
I think that is enough for the US.

Flying balloons over us may seem harmless, but I don’t see it that way.

I don’t believe that this boils down to simple “everybody cheats” sports analogy.

But. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Just telling you why I think tictok is a bad idea.
Specifically, as it relates to national security.

If I’m being genuine, which I always strive to be, I think I could say that my opinion of that type of media is biased without ”the China variable.”

In this instance, tictok is something that I occasionally viewed, and enjoyed.
But. I think it is extremely bad for our already worrying youth.

I actually reported a video once.
It had 0 views, and it just popped up after watching a Snow Leopard hunting video.
It was just a still image of a mad face, and a message saying something like “should I kill my classmates?” “Is it too late?” ” I think not.”

I reported it, and forgot it. Then I received an email about it, and I was told it was removed and thanked. I don’t know.

Let’s just say, I already didn’t care for it, and the US addressing it is not negatively affecting me.

If you are/were gaining something from it, then I am definitely sorry.

Wait…you actually have Trump sneakers?
And it’s TikTok, Not Tictoc

LOL. I’d rather walk on broken glass….

Getting back to your post. I keep seeing you all anti-TikTokkers talking about “national security”. But nobody has actually told me what the ACTUAL national security risk is. So far all I’ve seen is that they could be manipulating TikTok algorhythms to try to influence our young people (as if “young people” aren’t intelligent and able to figure this out on their own). But there is no evidence that they are actually doing this.

Now, if someone were to say, “There is evidence that TikTok is being used to insert malware and viruses into our national defense systems” like the US and Israelis did with Stuxnet then fine. Ban away. But just saying, “They could possibly maybe do this but we don’t know so let’s use the precautionary principle and ban the shit out of them” is just paranoid xenophobia.

^A level of paranoia is healthy.

@MrGrimm888 Enough to gift Facebook/Meta even more of a monopoly than it has now?

^The financial part of it is really sketchy. I agree.
Woops. I guess other social media companies will have to absorb all of tictok’s millions of viewers.

Perhaps it has not occurred to you yet. The US government relies on propaganda.
They just want to make sure they are writing the narrative.

@MrGrimm888 Exactly. Which is why they want to ban TikTok because they can’t control it. I’m just surprised that liberal-minded free thinking people want to go along with it and for the life of me I can’t figure out why.

^You will have a much happier life, if you don’t try to figure people out.

I’m about ready to just huff paint, and stare at the Sun.

@MrGrimm888 Well I’m glad we agree you’re not making any sense. :-) jk

^I make co2, not sense.

A follow up. A couple hundred posts ago I said that I was disappointed at my local rep for voting for the ban, and someone asked me why don’t I email him? I have a second job working in a local winery tasting room that I do for fun and free wine. It actually turns out that that tasting room is hosting a fundraiser for my congressman this Saturday and I may be working it. So if I have a chance, and if it’s not too awkward, I’ll ask him. Maybe I’ll get a straight answer to my question.

^My brother used to have to write Lindsay Graham, and he would answer him.
Even when he asked him about controversial policy that Graham backed, he wrote back.

Of course it could have been a secretary, but it sure sounded just like LG.

@MrGrimm888 had some very good descriptions of the ways a company like TikTok can influence the world through its algorithm. By analyzing the target, and tailoring a video stream towards them, you cannot predictably change a persons mind, but en masse, you can predictably change a certain number of people’s general attitudes. You can slip in ideas, present one side of a story, and generally choose a spread of videos that press on cultural divisions with the goal of exacerbating them. You can analyze what you know about people to insert content at the most statistically favorable times of day to increase engagement, or decrease suspicion. You can pick the exact right message, told in the exact right way, to further the goals of the state. There does not have to be a demonstration – indeed that is probably not possible without analyzing the TikTok algorithms (which will likely never happen for some reason). The fact that the (evil) CCP has the means, motive and opportunity to insert their own reality into the American psyche should by all rights be reason to ban it before it even began: before it infiltrated the economy and culture enough that the young people and moneyed interests band together to defend it.

Presently, we see the extremes of both parties, both equally intent on electing Trump, rallying under the save-TikTok banner. This should say something to everyone.

And yes, there are many problems with domestic social media companies, and you can regulate them all you want, as far as I care, but these laws are fundamentally toothless towards TikTok, who is protected and controlled by a state with a security apparatus that rivals the CIA. A TikTok under the CCP cannot be trusted or controlled.

Trump is only rallying to save TikTok because he got a donor. He was against it until he was for it. Companies doing donations to politicians to make them favorable to their cause has a long and glorious history in this country. It’s legalized corruption.

Your descriptions of what the Chinese can possibly do has been said multiple times before on this thread and you’ve said nothing new.

The bottom line is that you are willing to support banning something based upon rumor, innuendo, and theoretical possibilities, and fear. I am not.

No, based on motive, means and opportunity, plus a proven track record, times extremely high stakes.

Motive, means, opportunity. But no crime. You are like the movie Minority Report with the pre-crime police.

Cool, so we wait until after they get Trump elected to get a jury together and decide if the citizen known as the Communist Party of China did anything wrong.

You’re acting like everyone who likes TikTok deserves due process to not have it taken away.

That makes no sense. At no time I said don’t do anything. I’m totally in favor of ALL apps, regardless of who owns them, being monitored for security concerns. If there is actionable evidence that TikTok is engaging in nefarious acts like inserting Stuxnet viruses or identity theft then sure. Ban away. Preference data mining, though, is standard practice among all those websites and although is annoying is not at all illegal.

Seems like we’ve reached the dead horse beating part of the thread.

That was reached a long time ago.

That was fun. I always love a good “we need to protect our freedoms by eliminating our freedoms” argument.

Love a person who chimes in at the last second, dodging all arguments, and quotes a bumper sticker.

^ You’re welcome.

The problem is that a) I already did chime in (2nd comment in thread). b) it’s painfully obvious what the tiktok ban is about (and it’s not about security), c) It’s been a couple of decades since I’ve engaged in naive nationalistic arguments, and I thought we all have done this before, and d) @Caravanfan had done a pretty good job.

@MrGrimm888 – I feel the same way about this whole endeavor sometimes.

@hat – hardly, you posted a link with flaws and didn’t defend it, and when @Caravanfan was foundering, you had no substantial response, but yet again drop some pithy nothing. Thank you for having dispensed of all these notions so long ago you need not explain them to us lowly humans. I’m afraid, though, that sacrificing freedoms to gain freedoms is actually the cornerstone of all free societies. Social contract and game theory and all that. Take a 101.

I don’t think @Caravanfan is wrong.
I was just explaining my position, and that I didn’t think ot was a mistake to remove tictok.

Peace and love.

@Smashley
1) I was never foundering.
2) @hat was doing what I often do and eat popcorn watching the show
3) The only thing I disagree with @hat‘s original post is that I don’t think any media should be banned (he mentioned NYT, CNN, etc)

My dumb ass though it was “floundering.”

@MrGrimm888 I can’t swim well actually, much to the shame of my daughter, a swim instructor. So floundering wouldn’t work. I founder when I flounder.

Well. I looked it up.
Both words.
They actually seem to be synonyms.

@MrGrimm888 I was thinking of the fish

Whatever the US has going on here, where the NY Times, CNN, Fox, Washington Post, etc help manufacture consent for the murder of ~14k children is a problem. It’s not a potential problem.

But you think TikTok is the threat. So, yeah, I don’t think we’re going to come to some understanding.

You seem to hold the US and global capitalism in high regard. I do not..

You’re talking about several different issues. This one is about the CCP, which is evil, colonial, digitally focused, anti-you and anti-me, and in full control of a tool with deep penetration into society and the economy.

…“you’re”...

I’m arguing that it is the issue. If the US government wants tighter ideological control and feels TikTok is difficult to control, I want more of that. Not less.

US politicians and olds everywhere are explicitly blaming TikTok for poisoning their kids’ minds because they aren’t exposed to the propaganda that they are.

Anyway, I don’t give a shit about the CCP. I don’t. I care about the immediate, actual threat that is my own government and the interests of the economic system is serves.

@Caravanfan I too was thinking about the fish.
They do live on the bottom, if you can’t swim, you could flounder…

@hat – ok, that is a different question. This one is about TikTok and the immediate and actual threat that is poses, due to it being controlled by a party like the CCP.

@Smashley – And you haven’t even remotely presented a coherent case for that claim. You just haven’t.

@Smashley What is the immediate and actual threat? You’ve never answered that question.

@hat You say “olds.”
May I ask, are you old enough to remember a time without the internet?

@MrGrimm888 He is.

I’m 52 years old. I’m an old.

@hat 52?? It seems like 10 years ago you were only 42!!

The threat is the motive, means, inclination and opportunity. Foreign powers are not protected by the Constitution, because they exist outside of its rules (that old, giving up freedom to get freedom thing again). Why do you insist on the exposure? China, Trump and Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene might be able to frame this as an attack on free speech or an attack on Han Chinese, but that is cover to push an actual fascist agenda. I wouldn’t trust the public discourse we get out of a CCP content digester anyway.

The only thing fascist is the US government banning things because they don’t like it.

@Caravanfan – yeah, that’s the only facist thing.

year?

@Smashley – I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I do know that young people consume far less corporate mainstream media, and far more social media, like TikTok. They also happen to be far more informed. If that direct line to world events has occurred because of some devious plan by a “foreign government”, then I welcome it. Honestly.

If the CCP plans to erode the US propaganda system, then go for it. We fucking need it.

I am actually waiting for you to describe the immediate threat to human life that TikTok poses. If the threat is to western corporations or to US dominance, then I’m not interested.

@hat He won’t describe the immediate threat because there isn’t any. He’ll just rehash the anticommunist xenophobic comments he’s been writing all week.

I kind of wish we had a younger person who maybe values such things differently.
To me, it’s just the latest social media fad.
I never realized how important some consider it.

@hat If someone is going to erode the US, I would rather it be it’s own citizens. Not another competing nation.

@hat – I’ll admit, I’m in the tank for the US in particular, and western values in general. I see the actual authoritarians rising around the world and trying to get Trump elected, while he talks about revenge, death, ending elections and being a dictator, and I’ll admit, I get a bit paranoid.

Corporatism, corruption and consumerism are certainly real threats, but they are still secondary to the threat of the CCP.

I think that is the fear. Partly.
That China could destabilize us, by helping further divide us.

@Smashley – Yep. And that’s where we part in ways that make a common understanding difficult or impossible. I don’t see the threat as external. I’m not only talking about ideology or philosophy here. I’m more interested in material conditions. TikTok is not a threat to me (or people in Gaza). Despite it being pretty much dogshit, it proved itself an invaluable tool for following actual journalists and people in Gaza in real time while my government allocated my tax dollars for more carpet bombing of children.

The media and apps you’re not concerned about (or at least not to the degree and passion you argue against TikTok) are the ones that keep me up at night.

@hat – and twitter was the tool of the revolution before TikTok. Now it’s….. well…

I see internal and external threats working in collaboration to destroy representative government, and supplant it with oligarchy. Wiping out Gaza is obvious genocide without TikTok. I’ve never used the bitch, and I knew it on day 1. You don’t need to see the bodies to know that what Israel is doing is evil. It’s a tragic situation as a consequence of making alliances and concessions with those who do not follow or believe in the western tradition of universal human rights. We accepted Israel’s policy of ethnic cleansing, because it suited us, and now we are forced to accept ethnic cleansing. If we accept the CCP’s policy of digital infiltration, censorship, thought suppression, ethnic cleansing and authoritarianism, because it suits us, we should not be surprised to see more of the same,

Ok, I am not sure where to go with this. Not sure what you’re even arguing for. If the US (and West) holds such honorable ideals that we should uphold, should you expect its foreign policy to reflect that? The US is not a good actor – even for the pretend ideals of “democracy” or “human rights”. In fact, it’s very often the largest actor in violation of such ideals.

We didn’t “accept” Israel – we built it. We supported it via our countless lone UN resolution vetos over the years, funded it through its brutality, and upped the funding after Oct 7th, when they increased their murder and ethnic cleansing. Those thousands of bodies you and I have been watching – the corpses of kids with half a skull being pulled from rubble – that’s us. You and me. We did that. That is the result of this nation built on western traditions of universsal human rights.

And now you want to limit the population’s access to information even further, arguing that the CCP values censorship. Um, huh?

There are things that we can, at least on paper, control. I’m a citizen of the US. The actions my government take, with my tax money, are on me. They’re the things that I am resonsible for.

Anyway, we honestly share very little in our understanding of institutions and values. So, maybe we should really call this conversation quits.

@Caravanfan “Getting back to your post. I keep seeing you all anti-TikTokkers talking about “national security”. But nobody has actually told me what the ACTUAL national security risk is.”

I’ve only tangentially been following this thread, and haven’t read all of the responses. The scenario I fear is if China has a file on every TikTok user in the US. and they’re using trakers on internet histories, then 30 years from now the CCP’s Ministry of State Security can approach President Camacho and tell him that they’re going to invade Taiwan and he’s going to let them because otherwise they’re going to publish his browser history of searching for gay BDSM porn. Or the head of the WHO after China accidentally release the Superflu to cover up the scandal or they’ll reveal that the director had been searching for abortion services when she was in college.

The point is, if nearly all gen z are recklessly using TikTok right now not realizing that they’re exposing further versions of themselves to potential blackmail from the CCP of their entire browsing history.

My concern isn’t banning TikTok, but having sites using these type of trackers to learn very private things about us that shouldn’t be disclosed. For example, a weight loss lipo surgeon put geofencing around all of the divorce attorneys in his city. Anyone who entered in those gps fences would receive ads for weightloss surgery. IMO that’s invasive and dystopian.

(I wanted to move some lines around, so I apologize for jumping around a bit. Writing this explanation is apparently easier today than getting cut and paste to work with these fat fingers)

@hat
Sure, democracy is the worst system, except for all the rest. These days, there are some very clear examples of the “the rest” look like, and how they are cementing forever power. I am pro-American, but not blind.

Yes, America is often guilty of international violence, coercion and exploitation, but it is not the rule. More typically we have supported corporate interests who only see profits, then end up supporting political evil because the money is too strong of an influence. TikTok is a perfect example of this inclination, btw. Where we find ourselves out of step was in assuming our money was more powerful than dictatorships.

We also have saved the world and been the peacekeepers, peacemakers, and guardians of the apocalypse. You and me. There is also still journalism, courts, political rivalry, and some checks on power to keep things more honest. We are certainly fraught, and consumerism is a worrying religion, but these are own weaknesses that we should face plainly. America is not a golden child, but it is the indispensable nation: the guardian, the parent, the keeper of the flame. What we create, we only hope will surpass us, but we need to protect it to give it a chance.

I hope for a time when technology lifts humanity up so high we can shake loose the bonds of government, but we are certainly not there. The clash of civilization is already being fought. I think there was a time when our idealism dismissed this concept as orientalist or pessimistic, but the battle for culture, dominance, and the future is happening regardless. Call it naïveté, or blind hope, or an unwillingness to accept the world as otherwise, but I have to believe that the path to a prosperous, peaceful, mutual future follows the path of the Enlightenment, and not a little red book.

Freedom requires eternal vigilance. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a truism I believe in more. It is the responsibility of each generation to face the past, see the present and work for the future.

Of course there is hypocrisy. America was founded on principles of racial and gendered hierarchy, as well as universalism. But we are the ones who underpin global security, and the Athenian tradition the Enlightenment grew out of. Obviously there are contradictions, but the constitutional foundation that was laid has been the model of free peoples the world over for a quarter millenium. Of course, American ideas were also the foundation of the worst parts of Naziism; ideas which turned out slightly differently than we expected when combined with a authoritarian dictatorship. My point is that we are all kinds of things, but our heart is in the right place, so to speak. Pithy, perhaps, and simplistic, but when you compare the US government to India, Red China, Iran, Syria, Russia, North Korea, the contrast makes it hard to not see things somewhat black and whitely. They are the global coalition of authoritarian dictators. We are some thing, but not that.

@gorillapaws – there is certainly risk to giving such granular data on every citizen to a hostile foreign power. However, I see this risk as going hand in hand with the more pernicious and dangerous tool of influence. The data helps them understand how to influence people in general, and you in particular. For example: if the CCP will not allow TikTok to be sold, presumably because of the power it holds, the potential for the future, or the exposure of what has already been done, they could influence people with the platform into taking a generally anti-Biden position. That they have had their toy unfairly stolen by a big bully who just wants to squash dissent and seize power. The right has been saying he wants to steal power and destroy America (to give themselves armor for actually trying to steal power and destroy America), forever. All the CCP needs to do is push these kinds of ideas. Let’s get some JFK conspiracy in there, sprinkle with Agent Orange and remember the Maine, target swing districts, minorities with incomes under 25k, those with college debt, and voila! Trumps back, the rule of law is over, public schools are defunded, private prisons are expanded, and the flame of the west wanes.

Does anyone here use TikTok? I’m kind of curious what you see when you look up political repression in China, poverty in China, or Tiananmen square. Legit I’m curious if those things are censored to a western audience or not. Obviously not as much footage gets out of the mainland as in Gaza. Sometimes is just the volume, not the content, that does the influencing.

@gorillapaws Gen Z is smarter and more informed than most of us old farts give them credit for. I think our future is bright with us in their hands. We just need to get out of the way.

@Smashley Nice speech on American exceptionalism. I used to believe all of that but I’m a bit more cynical now. Some of it I still hope for.

In terms of my use of TikTok, no, I don’t use it but mostly because I don’t like the interface. There are a few people whose videos I really like on there and if there were a setting by which I could just see their videos then I’d use it. But it just puts random videos up that I have no interest in so the only time I look at it is when my daughter sends me something. Also, and this is an old-fart thing, I don’t like watching videos in portrait mode.

@Caravanfan – Thanks. I’m more cynical about the reality of American exceptionalism than I used to be. Actually, that’s backwards, I’m plenty cynical now, but growing up in Canada I was very cynical about it. However, as I’ve grown and learned, I see more nuance. It is not that the spirit of the enlightenment was incorrect: to turn the power of science on concepts of government and morality is a worthy, and perhaps essential, endeavor. It is that these ideas do not do the work for us: freedom requires vigilance. The path of the righteous is beset by ignorant men and all that. And it is not that America is special in any way besides being the largest, strongest, and oldest power defending and representing the philosophical technology that made the modern world possible, but it is that, for now.

It has never, and can never be a straight path to a better future, but when you really look at the words and deeds of the authoritarian coalition that actually does control TikTok, hack and scam individuals, hospitals, and political parties, and create transparent media influence campaigns to achieve their goals (Hamilton dashboard is kinda neat) there isn’t a lot of room for grey area, especially when we have a literal specter at our door, and he’s orange. We are the conflicted and contradictory good guys, grappling with our own internal struggles, they are the ones who already lost their own internal struggles, and became bad guys. No one is all one thing, and no one is unchangeable, but in an existential rivalry, it’s very hard not to focus on the dystopian.

Familiarizing yourself with poverty, law, corruption, and repression under the CCP is essential, but sometimes just looking at Putin, Assad and Kim, lords of bone and ash, and looking at who is directly propping them up, and you wonder why you ever gave the Communist Party the benefit of the doubt.

I found a video showing a kid trying to stop the ban on TikTok. I found this video while searching and I think the kid forgot to take his pills.
https://youtube.com/shorts/DnmrPRkmC-0?si=THbGvhuh4WN00hYm

@KRD I think the kid is just having fun and being a kid. I thought he was funny.

^It’s an example of a person likely too young to know a world without social media.
I could read a lot into it.
Like, this is a withdrawal symptom.
But I do think it’s just a kid being a kid.
I think it also speaks volumes of what we now consider “a kid being a kid.”
Kids used to “be kids,” when they came home muddy, with cuts, bruises, and broken arms, or set things on fire.
This young man, to me, looks like he could use a summer of playing in the woods…

One shouldn’t make assumptions about people based upon a 1 minute video.

Update. I went to the congressional fundraiser but didn’t get close to the congressman as he was surrounded. So I didn’t get to ask him.

^I think it’s perfectly fine to judge somebody for what they publicly display.
The more relevant complaint would be “why are children allowed to post things on social media?”

I thought I would bring this up, because it seems relevant to the subject.

I realized that there is some sort of link between tictok and my phone eavesdropping.

I have two, pretty concrete examples.

I was talking to a few friends a few months ago, at a gathering.
As I was “out,” I had my phone.
At some point the conversation I told some friends about how some African people use baboons, to find water.
I explained the entire concept, involving feeding a captured baboon salt, then letting it go and following it to water.
I was asked, but couldn’t recall how they captured the baboons.

Later that night, I was home and happened to get caught on a tictok binge, through YouTube.
To my surprise, one of the first videos was an AI generated version of my story about baboons.
The narration matched my story almost verbatim. At the tail end of the video, it explained how they catch them.

About the same time, I actually typed another anecdotal story about something here on Fluther. I did not speak about it, or search for anything about it, because it was something I knew.

Again. The next time I happened across tictok, one of the first videos was again a AI voiced version of my typed story.

I have noticed more correlations, but I dismiss most as coincidence.

Those two examples, are inexplicable, unless there tictok is somehow accessing my phone. Not just what I say, but what I typed on a private website.

I don’t claim to have any hypotheses on how this could happen, but it happens.

Looking at the baboon story, it could be viewed as my phone trying to help me remember the detail I had forgotten. If I’m being very optimistic.

I was thinking of starting a thread in Meta, to ask the Mods if Fluther is not a secure platform.
In theory, if my phone can “listen” to my typed words here, it can access our DM’s/PM’s.

I know that I personally have talked with many jellies on PMs with a degree of confidence in privacy. I have NEVER, to my knowledge, consented to my PMs being accessible by anyone but the jelly I am speaking with.

Decent article on the conservative news site The Bulwark on the ban, and the factions pro and con. Put me squarely in the 1st Amendment and Civil Libertarian group.
https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/tiktok-ban-bizarre-factions-strange-bedfellows