General Question

deaddolly's avatar

Illegal immigrants: what do you think?

Asked by deaddolly (3406points) September 28th, 2008

I have such mixed feelings. My daughter went to high school with an illegal girl from Mexico. The kids were very protective of her: it was hard for me knowing I was paying $8000 a year for my daughter to go there, while she was probably getting lots of help. Now she’s in a state university with the help of a teacher…
America is made up of immigrants; yet do we continue to support them? I woner what the collective thinks/feels?

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68 Answers

Snoopy's avatar

We should continue to support legal immigrants. It is not as if there is no longer a way to legally immigrate into the USA.

I support legal immigrants.

basp's avatar

Part of what it takes to support legal immigration is to revise our immigration laws. As it stands now, our laws encourage illegal immigration.

BronxLens's avatar

I personally think that the current laws need a serious overhaul. Having said that, as a democracy, when a law or set of laws becomes outdated, we need to get our representatives to act to make the changes as needed. As long as the current laws remain in place those caught here illegally need to be processed accordingly.

For relevant writings go to the Imprimis’ magazine web archive . Just type immigration and let the reading begin.

laureth's avatar

Most of the immigrants I’ve known, legal or illegal, have worked tons of hours and worked so much harder than most born-Americans I’ve known. They’ve also done it more cheaply, which is why we don’t pay more for things like produce. In my opinion, they’ve been better “citizens” than most of us.

qualitycontrol's avatar

This country is built on illegal immigration. People today act like Europeans didn’t come here and slaughter the native americans and settle on their land. They also don’t seem to recall us going to Africa and dragging people from their homes and forcing them to work against their will. And also why was it ok in the 30’s and 40’s for people to immigrate here? Was this country not called “the melting pot” for a reason? But now that we’re “the greatest country in the world” it’s all of the sudden not ok. I understand there is a legal way to immigrate here but what most people don’t know is how hard it is for these people to get a Visa. It’s almost impossible. If it was easy they would all be here legally. They have as much of a right to be here as we do. If you were born here you’re pretty much just lucky to be here. Immigrants have to overcome a great struggle just to make it here. I can understand why they want to come here so bad. It’s normal in South America for them to work 15 hours a day doing manual labor and make 5 dollars and then then paycheck comes every 2 weeks if they’re lucky. If they make 5 dollars an hour here can you imagine how that must feel to them? Us Americans take every little thing we have for granted, as we sit and type on our computers and sip our coffee, while the people we’re trying to bar from our country don’t even have a home or food. Just because they speak a different language, have different cultures and their skin is a different color it doesn’t make them any less human. They are equal to us. It isn’t their fault they come from a poor country. I hear people say “why don’t they fix their country instead of coming here?”. Well, easier said than done. If it’s so easy to do away with poverty why isn’t everyone rich already? Comments like that make me so upset. So to answer your question, I think we should support ILLEGAL immigrants. We shouldn’t call them illegal, they haven’t broken any laws, all they want is to be able to live. You know how it goes, our God Given rights: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Does this only apply to Americans? When was the last time you went on a four day walk through Mexico just to live a better life? That’s how they make it here: they walk. What determination they have. I think they should all be made legal. I would like to see what it would do to the economy if the 11 million illegal immigrants in this country paid taxes. People say they steal our jobs. How untrue that could ever be. They do the jobs that we don’t want to do because we think we’re too good. People don’t realize that just by them being here there is whole shift in social classes. They come in at the bottom and push everyone else up. Now more Americans have the opportunity for even better jobs and better pay. I could go on forever about this but I think I’ll stop there lol.

Snoopy's avatar

@quality. They are in fact in the country illegally. They have broken laws. And “they” don’t have as much right to be here as “we” do (see previous comment).

I agree w/ Bronx Lens and even some of what you said….but we should work to change laws that need changing, not just accept the status quo.

As illegal immigrants, they are getting screwed. If they are using false identification to work, they are “paying taxes” but will not get social security, Medicare, etc. If they are illegal they frequently will not engage the legal system when they are taken advantage of by an employer or violated in a way that where you or I would simply call the police.

Are they making more money than they were in their home country? Probably. Better quality of life? Probably. But don’t sugar coat it….it isn’t all wine and roses for illegal immigrants. As illegal immigrants people easily take advantage of them. That is wrong.

qualitycontrol's avatar

@snoopy: I am not sugar coating it. I know all too well how they are taken advantage of. It’s disgusting. They’re so happy to be here and also feel guilty, that they won’t fight for it. I don’t understand why you said “it isn’t all wines and roses”. There is no doubt that they are making more money here and have a better quality of life. When they compare their quality of life here to that of their country, to them it is “all wine and roses”. If we compare our quality of life here to their quality of life here then yes for them it’s atrocious. let’s take my company for example. We have 60–100 temp workers (illegal immigrants) bussed in every day. The company I work for pays the temp agency 11 dollars an hour per person and the agency then pays the temps 8 dollars an hour. How disgusting is that? When the temp workers receive their checks they have to go to the check cashing place. No, it’s not a bank. It’s a little store that cashes checks for illegal people and charges them 1% of the check. Isn’t that messed up? If one of them gets injured at work are they going to go to the hospital? Are they going to get workman’s comp? No, I don’t think so. Believe me, I know they are being taken advantage of. the reason I don’t think they have broke any laws is because those laws are absurd to begin with. Put yourself in their shoes. It’s like if someone told you it’s illegal to be hungry. Or it’s illegal to want to sleep in a warm bed. I think to fix it we should give illegal immigrants who are here in good standing the opportunity to become legal.

Snoopy's avatar

@quality control. “Give illegal immigrants….the opportunity to become illegal.”
What does that say to the potential legal immigrnat who is playing by the rules? Too bad you weren’t willing to break the law or you would be rewarded? That doesn’t seem right.

As to the temp agency making money…they aren’t a non-profit charity organization. I can’t speak to the amount of money they are making, however…..Same w/ the check cashing place (although I think that the 1% you quoted is probably not accurate…likely it is much higher).

If you feel so strongly that your employer is doing something wrong in taking advantage of illegal immigrants, why not report them to the appropriate authorities?

If they weren’t here illegally, then noone would be taking advantage of them in the examples that you mention.

I am not against immigration or immigrants. I am against laws being broken. If the laws themselves are broken, then work to fix them….don’t try to tell me to accept lawlessness.

qualitycontrol's avatar

@snoopy: The ones “playing by the rules” either cheated the system or had enough money in their country to apply for and get granted a visa. I have a friend who really cheated the system because he found a loophole. Otherwise it takes money to get a Visa. How can they get one if they make what they make? It’s not they didn’t want to do it right, they just couldn’t. One of my illegal friends showed me the receipt after he cashed his check and it was 1%. Regardless of the amount of money the temp agency makes, it’s still wrong. My company doesn’t hire illegal people, they pay the temp agency. It isn’t my company taking advantage, it’s the temp agency. Why is “no illegals allowed” a valid law? Just let them in!

Snoopy's avatar

I don’t know what else to say, quality…you are answering your own question. “Why is no illegals allowed a valid law?” It is valid because it is the law. If you don’t like the law, work to change it…

If someone “cheated” the system to get in, then they aren’t here legally either are they….?

qualitycontrol's avatar

But it isn’t a just law. You know, like the one that said women weren’t allowed to vote or that black people couldn’t go to school…It shouldn’t be a law. Just because group of people made up a set of rules to govern us by and called them laws, doesn’t make them moral. You can cry law all you want but it still isn’t right and I am working to change it, obviously. My friend found a loophole in the system and is now legal.

Snoopy's avatar

@quality. If you don’t like the law, do something to change it….just like the suffragettes et al have done.

Whether or not your friend is erroneously labeled “legal” by the government doesn’t change the fact, that, according to you, he obtained that status, illegally.

deaddolly's avatar

I support legal immigration. I think ppl need to pay taxes just like everyone else, if they plan to enjoy the same things we do. I do think Americans are spoiled and see them as a threat to their slice of the pie.
Some ppl work hard; some don’t. Some use the system to get basic needs met; others work. I don’t have a perfect answer, but I firmly beleive if a person wants to live here, they should be able to. but I also think they should learn English and enter the US the right way; legally.
Yes, laws need to be changed. Glad to hear ppl are trying.
Maybe someday we’ll get it right.

qualitycontrol's avatar

i am snoopy, jeeze give me some time. It’s just sad that more people are against changing the law than for it. Let my people gooooo

nayeight's avatar

I just want to ask, what exactly are all the steps you have to take to become a legal citizen in the US if you’re a citizen of Mexico? And on average, how long does that take?

nayeight's avatar

And how much does it cost? And how many people are accepted or denied?

galileogirl's avatar


2late2be's avatar

Ok, i am an illegal myself, i know that there’s a lot of people who says that us illegals we commit crimes, we do not try to learn the language, but most of us are here to work and have a better life, we, as a family have worked so hard, we try as hard as we can to learn the language, but every moment we are afraid that ICE take us back to Mexico and go there as same as we first came here, with nothing! im just hoping they would give us an opportunity to show USA that we are good people and hard workers, not criminals, our only mistake was to come here illegally….

deaddolly's avatar

@2late2be I don’t think everyone feels that way about illegals. The ones that break laws are the ones the public hears about more often. I would never stop anyone from bettering their lives, but I would ask that they do it legally.
It reminds me of skipping ppl to be the first in line. Why reward that?

Snoopy's avatar

@2late2be I do not think that illegals are automatically criminals, beyond entering the country illegally.

Why, may I ask, did you not enter the country legally? I am really serious….I really do want to know

jrpowell's avatar

I personally wish all borders were open. Want to come and live here? Great. Personally, I would like to give New Zealand a try. It would be nice if I could just buy a plane ticket, get some form of ID and find a job.

Let the free market do its thing.

tinyfaery's avatar

My city would shut down if there were no illegal immigrants. Mexican Immigration history. The whole article is a must read.

Bracero Program. Government sponsored Mexican worker program.

Snoopy's avatar

@jp Maybe we can just become part of the EU.

Er…well, maybe not :)

BronxLens's avatar

@johnpowell, if you ever give a try good luck with meeting the requirements for moving to New Zealand

Cardinal's avatar

Snoopy’s thinking is correct, qualitycontrol is totally flawed. Do you think we (the US) can supporrt the entire world that are unhappy with their life situation? Get real!

deaddolly's avatar

personally, I’d like to see more educational, etc help for Americans first.
We need to help people that need it. ie Katrina’s victims

2late2be's avatar

Snoopy, it is really hard to come here legally, some people do not have that time and it takes toooo long, even years!

deaddolly's avatar

You’re young, you’ve of lots of time. What does that say to the ppl that do come here legally?

tWrex's avatar

The Norweigans (namely Leif Ericson) came here at a much earlier time than most history teachers care to teach so the settling on land argument is mute. I was born here in America. I’m as much a Native American as any guy who claims that title.

The Africans sold their own people to us. While I may not promote slavery, it’s still a fact that their own people got rid of them. Furthermore, every country has had slaves at some point in time or another, yet no one seems to hold their heads underwater for their mistakes.

Any family that came through Rikers Island, came here legally. So this idea that people came here in the 30’s and 40’s illegally is not only false, but ignorant. My family came here from Ireland, Italy and the Netherlands. The only one of these cultures that was somewhat accepted were those from the Netherlands. The Irish were treated like trash as were the Italians. They were treated on the same level as blacks of that time. Don’t believe me? It doesn’t really matter, because the facts are there.

This country “was” called “the melting pot”. The idea was for people to come here and bring their culture and heritage, learn American ways and assimilate into American culture, but bring their own into the mix. Instead we’ve turned into a tossed salad, where anyone can pick and choose what they’d like to keep. Example: People want to come here to America to get jobs and get money. What they don’t want to do is learn English.

Those people that don’t have a home or food are no different than much of America, so using that as an excuse to break or abuse the law is pretty much a cop out. There are thousands of Veterans who fought to have a home here in the US who don’t have food, a job or a home.

And this whole idea that they take jobs Americans won’t do is not just wrong, it’s, again, ignorant. Americans did those jobs before illegal immigrants came here, and if they were kicked out – like they should be – they’d do them again. You’d see the workers everyday at the high-schools. What are they called again? Oh yeah, teenagers. But now you have to be bi-lingual to work at McDonalds. Who can do that at 16?

My parents next door neighbors came here from India legally. It took them 15 years. He had to learn English, have a job before he came here and had to fill out loads of paperwork. Tons of it. More than he should have. So yeah we need immigration reform, but while those immigration laws are currently intact we need to enforce them like any other. If someone robbed stores for 30 years because they wanted a better life for themselves would you be as lenient? No. Because they’re breaking the law. Whether you care to look at it that way or not is irrelevant. It’s the same thing. Both laws being broken are being broken to help someones living situation. His sister is just now being able to come to the US. Her and her family are going to live with them when she gets here. It took her 15 years too. And it pisses those immigrants off because they sacrificed everything to come here the right way.

Illegals don’t cause crime? google or how about this? $84 billion crime cost

Get pissed. Call me racist. I don’t care. But argue facts, not human emotions. You wanna cry about somebodies plight? Find a homeless Vet who fought to protect this country and got nothing in return. That’s a human life that’s undervalued. let the flames engulf me

cheebdragon's avatar

@tWrex- Great Answer!

Bri_L's avatar

@ tWrex – “And this whole idea that they take jobs Americans won’t do is not just wrong, it’s, again, ignorant. Americans did those jobs before illegal immigrants came here, and if they were kicked out – like they should be – they’d do them again”

And I would like to ad to this that in situations like crop farming where the pay is so low and the conditions so bad illegals are the only ones doing the jobs right now, the companies would finally get their asses taken care of so american workers would do the jobs. see tWrex, I can learn :-)

In the end, I think that we need the illegals to become legal as a means of record. It is only fair for all.

cheebdragon's avatar

excellent point Bri_L

qualitycontrol's avatar

@tWrex: You can call me ignorant all you want and debate every point I make. I’m not going to waste time even pointing out the childish comments you made. I wish you could learn to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. I just want to see people helped, whether it’s those from other countries or this one. It’s sad you don’t give a shit about other human beings and I hope you live a very fulfilling life knowing that you’re better than everyone else.

@nayeight: First they have to get a Visa to come here, they have to have proof of income and need to make a certain amount of money. They basically get audited. Then when they get here they have to have a sponsor and get a job and start the application process. Most of my friends waited between 5–8 year before they got their green cards. They were also always under close watch by the government because they worked 100 hours a week and started buying houses lol. The INS cops couldn’t believe it!

@Cardinal: YES I’m “totally flawed” because I want the world to be a better place. No one gets it do they? We need to grow and make changes and get ready for the future!

tWrex's avatar

@qualitycontrol That’s exactly what I said. I hate all human beings and don’t want anyone but me to be happy. And you’ll also notice that I didn’t call you ignorant. I said your viewpoints were, not because you are a bad person, but because your viewpoints are misinformed. And it really is hard to debate facts when all you have are emotions about a subject and that’s fine. Fluther is about everyone having their own opinion and sharing it and you are welcome to yours.

qualitycontrol's avatar

How can you be so sure? As far as I’m concerned your viewpoints are misinformed. If emotions influence opinions and opinions cause debate, why are you saying “the facts” are what is up for debate? We can’t debate facts, it either happened or it didn’t. The way I feel about this topic is what causes me to state my opinion, I use the facts to the best of my knowledge to back up what I believe. You are using irrelevant facts to strengthen your argument based on the way you feel. The facts I stated happened and so did the ones you described but you are using them to say I’m wrong, misinformed, or ignorant which is kind of annoying.

dalepetrie's avatar

I have to interject myself here, because I’ve seen the issue up close, first hand and I have some perspective that the “kick ‘em out” crowd misses. And I say this, having once been a member of the “kick ‘em out crowd”.

My thought traditionally was that if you want to come here, you should “get in line” and come here legally. People who don’t follow the rules are causing the problems, because one person just comes over while someone’s been on a waiting list, just encourages that person to just come over here and then we have chaos. This is what I thought until I found out two things.

#1 – There is no line to get in.
#2 – There is no list to get on.

I also used to harbor the Hollywood idea that you just had to marry a citizen and bam, you got your green card. That’s bullshit. Our immigration system in the 60s “used” to be about keeping families together. Not any more. It has become a political issue.

The dirty secret is that our government knows that illegal immigration props up our economy by allowing businesses to obtain cheap labor, and that if we fixed the system, we would put several small businesses out of business, we would increase the costs of labor to all businesses, we would create a labor shortage which would drive up wages everywhere, and we would lose our competitive edge on the global market.

I have also learned that the US government no longer cares about really policing this issue, they have enforcement simply to set examples and to convince the law and order types that something is being done. They want to keep this issue as an issue, because it is a wedge issue that can be used to swing elections as well. It gives politicians a place to hang their hats and curry favor with one side or the other. The entire issue of illegal immigration is nothing more than a trumped up political issue which plays with peoples’ lives.

I’ll tell you how I came about my knowledge. My wife has a friend she’s known since the 5th grade. This friend took a job as a hostess at a local restaurant where they hired illegal Mexican immigrants…why? Well not only could they pay these guys a lot less than an American would demand for the same job (when you count the overall cost of overtime, taxes, benefits, etc that they can avoid), they get a work ethic which is 10 times greater than their average American worker. People come over here at great personal expense and peril and are grateful to have a job that pays them $10 an hour in cash when they are lucky to make $5 a day at home. They don’t mind working 80 hour weeks with no overtime, because it allows them to buy homes and raise families, it allows them to improve the quality of life for relatives back home by sending them money…they may have to live in a small house with 12 other people and work nearly every waking hour, but it’s a better life for them than they could have ever dreamed of back home. So it’s hard to not see the motivation for them to come, and it’s hard to not see the motivation for companies to hire these people.

Now that doesn’t make it “right”, but it does make it “understandable”.

Anyway, this friend met and married one of their cooks. He had come from Mexico in 1993 at the urging of his brother who knew where he could get work. Their parents back in Mexico had no health insurance and their mother had cancer, and he sent most of his money back to help her (she has been in remission for many years now in no small part due to the money her sons sent back). Unfortunately for this guy, who met our friend in 1995, married her in 1996, had their first kid in 1998 and second kid in 2000, back in 1994 he was caught.

Now, his understanding was that if you were caught, you had to go home. He knew almost no English at the time (but by 1995 when he met our friend, he was fluent). The law states that if you are caught however, you get a trial. It also states that you are to be informed, in YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE if you can’t speak English, of the date and time of the trial. I mean, I understand people saying “why do we have to speak THEIR language,” but you don’t try someone and not tell them the time and the place of the trial, do you? Well, that never happened, they sent him his trial notice in English. The law says that this would be enough to declare a mistrial, more on that in a moment.

Now what this guy thought was that he had to go home…he was caught, and was being kicked out. He got the notice, and it said something about a deportation trial, and of the few words he know, deportation was one. So, he left the country, thinking that was what he was supposed to do. The next year however he decided to come back, again at great personal expense and peril, thinking he had somehow “reset” the clock and as long as he didn’t get caught this time, he’d be fine.

Well, I heard about our friend dating this guy and I was OUTRAGED. What in the world is she doing? This guy is just USING her to get his green card. He’s illegal, he should have GOTTEN IN LINE and WAITED HIS TURN. I was ready to call immigration. My wife convinced me this wasn’t my life I was messing with so calm down. I demured, and today there are two wonderful American girls and a happy 12 year old marriage that might have never been. But I just basically turned a blind eye to it. I met the guy, he was very nice, and over time I realized that his marrying our friend had nothing to do with trying to obtain legal status, and everything to do with their actually loving each other.

OK, well fast forward to 2004. Our friend was getting increasingly edgy about her husband’s legal status, and remember, they’ve been married 8 years at this point. We began to learn what was really going on. You see, since he just left on his own and didn’t show up for his trial back in 1994 (10 years before now), they had entered a “deportation in absentia” order against him. So, we asked questions, like why didn’t he come here legally in the first place, and isn’t there any way to get him legal now that you’re married, and that’s when my prejudices started to get wiped away.

You see, what Americans don’t know, but Mexicans do is that Mexico, along with 19 other countries are what are considered by our State Department to be “well represented”. It is no longer a matter of “give us your poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to be free.” It is now, “we’ve got enough Mexicans (or insert one of 19 other nationalities here), don’t bother.” In other words, if you go to get the forms you need to apply for legal immigration, you’re told that no such form exists.

But wait a minute, we all know there are legal immigrants from Mexico, so where do they come from? Well, essentially there are 3 pools of people from these 20 countries that become legal. One are the people who are sponsored by a family member who is legal inside the US. By sponsored it means you take full financial and legal responsibility for them, and you have to be an American to sponsor someone, and that person can’t already be here, they have to wait at home until it is approved, and often you need a good reason. So unless you already have a good in here, you’re not getting in that way. Second group is those who are sponsored by their employers on H1-B work Visas. If your US based employer says they need to bring you into the country to work here, then if they’re lucky and get one of the permits that essentially get snapped up on the one day a year they’re offered (and usually go to graduate students from Asia and India), then you might get over that way.

The third way most Mexicans and people from these other countries get here legally is to first come here ILLEGALLY. You read that right, the preferred method of legal immigration into the US is to first immigrate here ILLEGALLY. You see, if our friend’s husband had gone to that trial, at the trial he could have requested from the judge what is called an “adjustment in legal status”.

Now requesting that doesn’t guarantee you get in, but you hold down a job, get married, have kids, don’t break any laws, etc. (all things this guy did), it will often work. But the process is neither quick, nor cheap. Usually requests are denied several times, appealed several times and eventually rubber stamped. But add a glitch to the process, and good luck to you, regardless of your situation. These are the people the government uses as examples to show that they’re serious about deporting illegal immigrants.

So, what happened to this guy we know is that he didn’t do this right away. As far as the government knew, he never left the country in 1994, he simply ignored the deportation hearing. So after they had been married for a while and he got a lawyer and went to turn himself in and apply for an “adjustment in status”, he was told he couldn’t because he’d already been deported. So, he and his wife worked themselves like animals…each was taking on 3 jobs, working 80+ hours a week, while raising 2 kids, they got one day a week to see each other and to spend as a family and that was it. He never caused trouble for anyone, and has essentially paid taxes via withholdings by using false SSNs rather than being paid in cash, even though it was cash out of his pocket and he couldn’t file a tax return to get any of it back.

Anyway, they spent several years and thousands upon thousands of dollars in legal filing and trial fees, and essentially according to US law, the only thing he should have needed to prove was that his original court date was never communicated to him in a language that he could understand. But in violation of the US’ own laws, his appeals kept getting denied.

In 2004, the Bush campaign actually targeted this family for their mailings, claiming that if Bush were elected, he would see to it that guys like him could stay in the country, and the woman bought it! But on Bush’s innauguration day in 2005, he was physically deported. But that’s only part of the story.

You see, despite having a wife and 2 kids who relied on him for half their financial support, despite being an upstanding worker, family man and citizen for almost 12 years at that point, despite having injected thousands of dollars of tax revenue and money into the legal system and despite being a homeowner, he was ejected in a crass an inhumane manner. He knew this was a possibility, and he was cooperating with officials…he was not a flight risk, he had nowhere to go. One day they called him and asked him to come down to their offices to “discuss his case”. He told them, I will be right down, but can I ask you one favor. I am going to have my wife drive me there because I do not drive (true, because he doesn’t want to even break the law by obtaining a license by illegal means), and because I have two young children (4 1/2 and 7 at that time), they will have to come with. If you are going to arrest me, please either tell me now so that I can prepare my family and take a bus to the station so my young children do not have to see me be arrested, or at least when I get there, ask them to go home and wait until they are gone to arrest me. Oh, don’t worry, they said, we just want to discuss your case. What happens? He gets there and there’s a boot on his neck right in front of his kids, the cuffs get slapped on and he’s dragged away and told he’ll be on a plane in 4 days.

On the DAY of his departure, again Bush’s innauguration day…so much for his promise…our friend, his wife, suffers congestive heart failure. Why? Because at age 35, she has been under stress about this situation for 8 years. She has been working 80 hours a week and with his 80 hours a week they’ve barely been keeping their heads above water. Now she doesn’t know how she’s going to raise her kids or pay her bills. She’s lost almost everything. And of course working these 3 part time labor jobs, she has no health benefits, so she’s never gone to the Dr. when she’s gotten sick. But now she passes out, and wakes up, to be told she has congestive heart failure, she now has only 15% function in her heart and will never be able to work again. So in ONE DAY the family lost its entire livelihood.

Now, we stepped in to help her out, we threw a benefit to pay for the costs of new legal filings. One thing we could do was to apply for humanitarian parole. This is to allow an otherwise inadmissiable (i.e. deported) alien to come back to the US for humanitarian reasons involving their family. Her father even offered to sponsor him. We wrote to both our Senators (the Democrat wrote a letter on our behalf, the Republican wouldn’t take our calls). The verdict was that her situation wasn’t bad enough to justify letting this guy back in the country.

It took a year for her to get Social Security and by the time she got it, they took 2/3 of it away from her because her father had loaned her money, and they considered a loan from a family member to be a gift. Her house was foreclosed on. The welfare office’s response to her was “why don’t you move to Mexico”. Now she doesn’t speak Spanish, neither do her kids. Not only that, they are very light skinned, and in the town where he was deported to, they would have been kidnapped almost immediately. He was repeatedly shaken down by cops at home because they knew they could make him give them whatever money he had on them because if he didn’t, they would arrest him and he’d NEVER have a chance to get home. He is barred from entering the US for 10 years, unable to see his kids become teenagers and then women. Unable to save his house. Unable to support his wife and daughters. Unable to have a life worth living essentially.

Do you think I objected to him coming back illegally a third time?

Immigration is fucked up, period. Even for countries where we don’t already have enough of their people, in a country of over 300 million people with 26 square miles of land per person, we allow only 55,000 people a year to APPLY for legal residency, IF they are from a country that is admissible (but not from where people actually want to come). And most of those applications are rejeted. Bottom line, we’re basically allowing our population to grow 1% of 1% a year via legal immigration…that’s not enough.

The whole reason is that we can look like we’re doing something about immigration reform so we actually don’t have to do anything about it, in that way we can prop up our economy by relying on below market labor and as long as we tear apart a few families and kick out a few hard working, law abiding people who only broke the law in the first place because our government ENCOURAGES you to do so by offering legal immigration via an illegal back door, making an example of them to quell the rage we’ve manufactured about the issue in the first place, then we don’t give a shit whose lives we destroy, whether we’re being fair or humane.

In reality, if we would reform our laws so that a reasonable number of people from the countries where people want to immigrate from could actually apply for and obtain citizenship legally, we would eliminate the incentive to immigrate illegally. THEN, anyone who did not go through legitimate channels could actually be considered a criminal…as the only reason to illegally immigrate and go through the cost and risk would be because our filter (designed to keep criminals and dangerous folks out) would eliminate you from consideration. Then and ONLY then, we could take the moral high ground by saying “shoot on sight” at the border crossings. We would be able to apply a fraction of the enforcement dollars to capture more people, and the ones we did capture would actually be criminals and not people just yearning for a better life. The path to immigration reform does not lie in stricter border controls, it lies in amore sensible legal avenues for people to take, and MUCH higher quotas for legal immigration.

What we need to do is to declare a sort of amnesty, but each person should be required to have a background check, pay a fine and file for legal immigration. They can be given a trial and if they are an upstanding citizen, we should give them legal status. Then all existing quotas will be wiped out and replaced with a new system which controls the total number of people who can come in to our country each year to avoid overwhelming our system, but which applies the criteria of who applied and paid the proper fees and whether or not they have a clean record and can be expected to be a contributing citizen. And they should be expected to pay taxes and obey our laws. I would also favor that they be required to, at their expense, take English language courses. And certainly revokation of legal status would be an option for anyone who breaks our laws, takes advantage of our welfare systems, or disrespects our cultural mores. But we shouldn’t be tearing families apart, we shouldn’t be rejecting hard working people who want to contribute to our society and our tax base, and we should be respecting and following our own laws and not just using them to our political and public relations advantage.

Our current system is in a word, inhumane, and as far as I’m concerned an unjust law is begging to be broken. Our laws are designed to encourage this behavior as it is, so we can’t then demonize people for taking advantage of a loophole we gave them. Our overriding concerns should be (but are not) fairness and the greater good of society. And until we fix our laws, we will never fix the problem, and we must as a people rise above it and stop scapegoating. Walk a mile in the shoes of one of these people and tell me that you wouldn’t do exactly the same thing they’re doing. Do you realize that it costs $4,000 US (the life savings of an average Mexican citizen) to get a Coyote to smuggle you across the border, sometimes in conditions which might KILL you, and yet people do it EVERY single day. What does that tell you about their quality of life and living conditions? I guarantee you, 99.99% of Americans would do the same if the conditions were reversed.

nayeight's avatar

@ dalepetrie – That is so sad, tell your friend and her family that they have my condolences.

@ trex – I’m not understanding what point you are trying to make with people from the Netherlands and being a Native American. I thought the only Native Americans are American Indians, seeing as how they lived here first and Europeans did not. It never ceases to amaze me how (I’m sorry if this is inappropriate) some white people sound so cocky and proud of this country. Europeans stole this land and killed millions of people to get it. This is a great country, don’t get me wrong, that was built from the blood, sweat and tears of American Indians and slaves that never get credit the way the Europeans do, because they struggled so hard. Hard enough that many families of English, French, German, Irish, Italian (the list can go on forever) decent can still trace their heritage back across the boat somewhere. Do you think I can trace my African heritage across the boat? No, I can’t even trace it to the right plantation. And as for your little statement about slavery, I don’t understand what your implying. Yes, Africans were sold by other Africans to slave traders but I don’t understand what that has to do with us being American. And the way you said us sounds really sketchy, most white people I meet, especially of Irish and Italian decent, don’t claim any responsibility to slavery. My ancestors didn’t ask to come here as yours did. They were taken and made lives here after what I would call a real stuggle. At least people didn’t have debates on whether or not the Irish and Italians were actually human beings and if they deserved the same dignities as human beings do.

cheebdragon's avatar

Someone sent me this info several months ago, I thought it was kind of interesting, so im just passing it along to Fluther…...

“1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.
Verify at: FAIR

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
Verify at:Center for Immigration Studies

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: Center for Immigration Studies

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
Verify at: CNN Transcripts

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at Lou Dobbs Tonight

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: CNN Transcripts

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: Lou Dobbs transcripts CNN

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: CNN Transcripts

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: Lou Dobbs CNN transcript

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
Verify at: Lou Dobbs CNN transcript

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
Verify at: Homeland Security Report

12. The National Policy Institute, “estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.”
Verify at: National Policy Institute

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
Verify at:

14. “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States.”
Verify at: Violent Crimes Institute

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. ”

tWrex's avatar

isn’t that half the bailout we’re getting stuck with?

galileogirl's avatar

Aside from the fact that many of your sources are outdated, ‘estimates’ or Lou Dobbs, the major reason people enter the United States without the proper documentation is JOBS. Those jobs are provided by American citizens who are aiding and abetting the breaking of immigration laws, thereby acting as criminals themselves. If we cut off the source of money we could almost wipe out the problem.

So why don’t we pass some really good legislation and make the perpetrators pay for the crimes. For every undocumented alien hired an employer would be fined $100,000. That should just about cover the legal and transportation costs to return them to their country of origin. For repeat offenders, we could keep them off the streets by giving them jail time in federal prison where they don’t get time off for good behavior.

I can guarantee you that after a couple of meat packing plants end up paying $10s of millions in fines, CEOs get sentenced to the fedeal pen, fast food corporations go out of business and guys too lazy to do their own yardwork end up losing their homes, the demand for undocumented aliens would dry up. With no demand, the supply would go home.

By the way cheeb, ‘anchor babies’ are US citizens. I’m sure if you climbed your family tree you would find someone questioning your right to be here but they would be wrong too.

dalepetrie's avatar

Or do as I said, fix the laws so people can legally immigrate, so our government doesn’t encourage back door immigration, rather than demonizing the people trying to make a better life, and using racist terms like anchor babies. I already gave a real life example of how that term is a farce anyway…the US government doesn’t care if you have kids here that will go on wellfare, they’ll kick your ass out anyway if they want to make an example of you.

How would you like it if your government came to you and said “you’re not American enough, get out”? That’s what people do with the anchor babies racist comments. These kids were born in the US, they were raised in the US, they may not speak Spanish, and they may even be kidnapped, raped or murdered if sent to Mexico (if they have one white parent…light skinned kid in Mexico is GOLD on the black market). It’s not bad enough that we have to demonize people who are looking for a better life and are exploiting holes in our system our government knows are there and keeps up with a wink and a nod, but then we have racist fucks coming up with ugly, hate filled terms like “anchor babies”.

You ought to be ashamed.

deaddolly's avatar

I hate such mixed feelings about the issue. I know how horrid it is in Mexico and I have nothing against honest, hard working ppl moving to make a better life for themselves. What I have a problem with is them tapping into the resources, be it minimum wage/cash only jobs, school aid or whatever, when some Americans can’t get the help they need. We’ve got ppl in LA, still living in trailers after Katrina. Those ppl should come first. As should our kids and old ppl.
I don’t have an answer; I blame our government and governments elsewhere. But, I don’t feel it’s my responsibity as a taxpayer to help support ppl that come into this country illegally.
The student I mentioned at the beginning of my thread is now attending a state college; fully paid. Good for her, but how come she can do that when there are ppl here legally that work
3+ jobs to get their kids a decent education and the things they need. I paid $8000 a year to send my daughter to high school; I did it by working more than one job and sometimes borrowing money.
The whole system just sucks.

galileogirl's avatar

dale: As you can guess my answer was just the teeniest bit cynical. If the American people had to deal with the fallout of sealed borders there would be a tremendous outcry. I can’t understand how anyone can cite a xenophobe like Lou Dobbs.

dolly: For the entire history of our species if people cannot survive where they live, they move to someplace else. For the last 20 years I have worked closely with immigrants and their children and grandchildren. Coming to America is not a thing done lightly. Adult immigrants sometimes wait 10 years before the are allowed to come to the US. It is always difficult for them personn\ally and a real sacrifice as they leave the familiar and comfortable behind. And what do they come to? Racism, discrimination, fear, and usually a lower standard of living than they left behind. Why do they come? So their children will have a better life, would you be willing to do the same?

You seem to have a problem with educating the children of aliens. You implied you worked a second job to put your daughter through private school. I want to put a different idea before you. If you had spent 1/3 of the time volunteering in your daughter’s public school or politically pushing to have the resources provided for public school, your daughter and dozens of others would have had that better education. You would have had more time for your family and there would have been a job freed up for someone else.

We can’t maintain a world of great disparities between haves and have nothings. This system always leads to bad outcomes. If we can bring better lives to our neighbors, they in turn will be able to trade with us keeping our economy strong. We just can’t sit behind our fence and pretend the world is OK. That is a fool’s dream.

deaddolly's avatar

@galileogirl I spent a lot of time volunteering at my kid’s school as it was. I simply refused to send her to a school where she’d have to fight to get an education…at a school where teachers had to fight to get the class under control and who’s graduation rate was not even 50%.

We need to help people in this country first and foremost. Close the borders until we do that, if we have too. I don’t care if someone’s father is here and grandma’s back there. I don’t wantmy tax dollars going to anyone other than the people who need it here in the states. it’s citizens. they deserve better.
I’m not following this thread anymore. You can quote whatever you want to me and it will not change my mind. Don’t care if we’re al immigrants. That was then and this is NOW. Let those ppl work in their own countries to promote change. All i care about is my country.

dalepetrie's avatar

I can see where dd is coming from, I’d just say, don’t judge a person unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. It’s hard to know the whole story, and too often people demonize the immigrant who is just doing ‘what people do’ in order to escape a life of misery. Trust me, it’s not an easy path, and it’s hard for me to think that something as simple as the geographical location of your birth should doom you to a life not worth living. Bottom line for me is, we have the space and the resources to fix the immigration problem, and it’s the laws that ultimately cause all the economic problems the right wing likes to pin on the immigrants themselves in their scapegoating. Fix the laws, you fix the financial problems. Kick ‘em out and they just come back, it’s a losing battle. Open the borders to law abiding citizens and shoot the criminals on site. Problem solved.

galileogirl's avatar

That was then this is now…the refrain of those who have no idea of their past. Then was once now and now will soon be then, it is all the same. There’s not enough to go around my English-American ancestors said when my Palantine ancestors arrived in 1720 as the pushed them out of PA into the wilds of the Appalachians. When their grandchildren drove the Native Americans onto the Trail of Tears I’m sure they justified it with ‘that was then’, Then when the Yankees decided ‘this was now’, the next 2 generations were driven out of Alabama to the border of Indian Territory. Tkose internal immigrants again used the ‘then and now’ paradigm again as they swept through Oklahoma in the 1890’s.

That doesn’t even include the Irish and Swedish ancestors who were welcomed with closed fists instead of open arms as they carried on and built the Midwest.

There is no door that slams shut or wall that is erected that says OK we got what we want and so now we expect everyone else to accept what we wouldn’t. Every generation for the last 400 years has reacted out of fear and ignorance to change and then found they were wrong That was then, it is now and it will be tomorrow=it really is all the same.

dalepetrie's avatar

And consider this…you can “close the borders” and step up enforcement, but once they’re in, they’ve got a back door as I described. And closing the borders, OK, you can build a 700 mile wall. If they don’t climb over it, they tunnel under it. If they don’t tunnel under it, they get smuggled in via a truck, or a train, or the trunk of someone’s car…often in 115 degree heat. It’s kind of like the war on drugs, you can’t choke off the supply side, it never works…you have to fix the demand side. You can pour billions into enforcement of drug laws, and no matter how much you spend, all you do is succeed in strengthening the black market and the gang activity that surrounds the smuggling and distribution. Same thing with immigrants, the more supply you try to choke off, the bigger the black market gets for smugglers who will distribute you to wherever you want to go. Same thing with supply side economics for that matter…give all the tax breaks to the people who can supply the jobs, but do nothing to spur the demand, and you get economic crisis. Focus on the demand side. If you distribute the tax incentives to the poor, they spend it, that increases demand, supply has to keep up, jobs are created, more money at the bottom end, more spending, more demand, more jobs. With drugs, you make them legal but you make them safe, put rules around purchasing and usage, tax them and spend that money on education and treatment, drugs become less dangerous, usage goes down, black market goes away, government is flush with cash. Enforcement then only has to deal with a fraction of the problems (i.e. the people who sell “extra” drugs and who sell them to minors). With immigration, open the borders to those who are law abiding, make a process, disincentivize the smuggling of people and human trafficking, make sure people aren’t sold into slavery because they don’t need to take unnecessary risks to get here…satisfy the demand, equalize the system a bit, demand goes down, black market goes away, economy is stimulated by people paying into the system, no more free rides because of back door winks and nods, enforcement duties are far diminished (only have to shoot or deport the criminals as only criminals will be refusing to go through the proper channels). THEN you can close the borders, solve ALL the immigration problems and have a clean conscience, and break from the us. vs. them legacy that has haunted our country for 400 years.

Bri_L's avatar

Is it possible there is a compromise?

dalepetrie's avatar

I think there are a number of compromises that could be taken, I think that what we lack is political will because it’s a wedge issue that #1 – inflates our economy and #2 – allows people a scapegoat to get re-elected.

cheebdragon's avatar

What is the estimated number of illegal immigrants living your city dale?

dalepetrie's avatar

Minneapolis/St. Paul, pretty large population…I know we have about 3 million people and that about 10% of that population is foreign born, but I don’t think that includes the illegal population. I don’t know of any ready statistics on the issue, but I can tell you that for example the entire West End of St. Paul, most of the South Side of St. Paul and a significant portion of the East Side of St. Paul is largely Hispanic as is the expansive Lake Street Area in Minneapolis, as well as many other pockets throughout the city. I know some areas almost all the business are Hispanic owned, and just about every restaurant hires Mexican immigrants for their kitchens…very few are legal. In addition we have a large Somali population, much of which is illegal, and we have I believe the largest Hmong immigrant population in the US, but most of that is legal. I’d be surprised if at least 8% of our population weren’t illegal.

dalepetrie's avatar

And most of them I’ve met work harder for their money than most American born people I know to be completely honest with you. Most I’ve met would also love the chance to become legal. I know the problems we DO have with illegal immigrants would go away about 99% if we relaxed immigration rules and fixed our system, allowing these people to pay taxes, get insurance (a lot of people worry about how “they” clog up our emergency rooms…you want to know why that is? They don’t go to the doctor when they’re sick because they can’t afford it and they can’t get insurance, wanna fix THAT problem, fix the system).

tinyfaery's avatar

I find it interesting very fee have answered my supplemental question.

qualitycontrol's avatar

Awesome input dale, I’m glad someone else sees it like I do.
@DD: sending your daughter to a school that costs 8,000 a year was your choice. That’s a lot more money than someone from say Mexico will ever see. You really can’t upset about that. Going to a public high school doesn’t mean you won’t get into college.
People need to look at the bigger picture here. They still claim people are coming in “illegally” and this is “my country”. This country doesn’t belong to anyone and we’re all very lucky to live here. The fact that other people aren’t allowed in is disgusting. You say they’re breaking laws, but it isn’t a just law. Like I brought up for example, the law that said women couldn’t vote. Just because it was a law, didn’t make it moral. I’ve never heard the word “anchor baby” but that’s horrific. All people care about is their god dam selves and their money. “It’s mine, it’s my money my money my tax dollars!” You’re lucky you have food to eat. You’re lucky we live in a country where it’s ok for women to work and we can vote and have freedom of speech. We are so so lucky and take everything for granted. Then we shit on people who want a better life. People in this country disgust me.

Bri_L's avatar

@ tinyfaery – where is your supplemental question?

cheebdragon's avatar

Oh so when my illegal alien neighbors tagged everything within 5 blocks, they just wanted “a better life”....and that drunk illegal alien who crashed a stolen car into my boyfriends house 10 years ago, it was because he wanted a “better life”? my boyfriend had to pay for the repairs, nice eh? This disgusts me .
They get a better life and we have to suffer…...because we owe them?

Immigration and the Alien Gang Epidemic: Problems and Solutions

@Dale-Immigration Cost – What You Probably Don’t Know

tinyfaery's avatar

Americans do all those things, and worse.

dalepetrie's avatar

Yes, Cheeb, because I’m sure your piece of shit neighbors are representative of every person who comes over in search of a better life. Wow, if no natural born American has ever screwed you over, you really have led a sheltered life! And again, the fallback for ALL conservatives seems to be “they crowd up our emergency rooms and get treated for free.” But again, they have no insurance…they can’t get it, because they can’t work legally. And yes, an ER can’t deny you service…they can’t deny us white folks service either. You or I could go down to those same ERs if we didn’t have insurance and wait hours like they do when our health has deteriorated to the point where we ABSOLUTELY have to seek medical attention, and we’d be treated as well. Again, fix the immigration system…allow SOME legal immigration, a sensible amount that both respects the limitations of our system to absorb new participants, but also addresses the demand that exists. Again, there is NO LEGAL WAY for Mexicans to just sign up, get in line and immigrate legally. If there were, they’d be doing it, they’d be getting jobs with health benefits, and they wouldn’t be a drag on the system. AND all these people who get drunk, steal cars and run into peoples’ houses could actually be kept OUT of this country, because they wouldn’t make it past the screening system, and because the only people trying to get over here illegally would be scum like that, which is a MUCH smaller number than the number trying to come over now, our enforcement efforts would actually be able to keep them out. And if someone had been law abiding in Mexico and came here and turned into a shitheel, we could arrest them, make them pay restitution and kick them out.

I’m all for solving the gang problem, and keeping out the bad element. It does exist…it exists among any culture, my own included, it’s why we have jails to put our own people in. But it’s patently ignorant to judge all immigrants based on the worst examples. Hey, we had a woman from Guatemala in a town a couple hours from here who ran a stop sign, hit a school bus and killed 4 students, and then claimed it was her boyfriend (another illegal) who was actually driving, only he ran off never to be seen again. People did see the guy fleeing the scene, but she was behind the wheel and there was no way it would have been physically possible for her to have ended up in the driver’s seat with her leg pinned under the steering wheel if she had been sitting in the passenger seat at the time of the crash. That bitch oughta be executed, and we don’t have the death penalty here in Minnesota. It doesn’t mean though that my friend’s husband, who is working very hard to support two American born young girls and a disabled wife should get kicked out now, does it?

qualitycontrol's avatar

I went to a forum on immigration and tolerance a few weeks ago at my college. Apparently the same number of visas is given out to every country per yet from America regardless of size. I think the number was 2,000 visas a year are given to selected countries. Take a country with hundreds of thousands or millions of people and chances are slim that you’ll ever see a visa.

cheebdragon's avatar

@dale- I’m not even going to bother reading all of your rant.
All I’m going to say is you have your experiences and I have mine, neither of our opinions represent the entire population of illegal immigrants. Personally I feel the government should leave immigration laws up to each state, because I am sick of people who have never even lived in California, dictating what we can or can’t do about immigration. x

laureth's avatar

Interestingly, giving them amnesty would make the immigration situation more expensive for the U.S. Government, according to this article.

dalepetrie's avatar

@Cheeb -

So, to turn it around just a bit, why should people who live in California dictate US immigration policy?

I think the best thing you’ve said is neither of our opinions represents the entire population of illegal immigrants…very true. There are good eggs and bad eggs, just as in the natural born population. But when people are born here and turn into shitbags, we don’t kick them out of the country, we have other solutions.

My problem is when people automatically assume that deportation is the only solution to this problem, without even looking at the underlying reasons the problem occurs.

If we address the reasons why people come here illegally (and it is not an opinion but a cold hard fact that one HUGE reason is that there IS no legal way to immigrate for most people who want to come here), we can far better control who gets in.

And just another note, when you discount what someone said as a “rant” and then admit in the same breath that you didn’t even read it, it really diminishes anything else you say afterwards in the eyes of any reasonable person reading your answer…just a hint!

cheebdragon's avatar

dale, read what i wrote, then think about it for a second. I never said that california should get to dictate immigration for the rest of the country, i said that california should be able to make its own immigration laws because people like you and people in washington have no clue about life in southern california.

by the way, there is a huge difference between people actually reading a 3 sentence answer and reading your energizer bunny like rants.

dalepetrie's avatar

And you accuse “people like me” you have no clue what I’m like are trying to dictate what happens in California. Read what I read an you’ll see the VERY FIRST SENTENCE said “so, to turn it around just a bit….” I was turning around what you said to show you how assinine it was.

In my first “rant”, which yes is a lot different than reading a 3 sentence quip, particularly in that it is far more informative, and some of us actually seek to UNDERSTAND the issue, which let’s face it, is too complex to be addressed in 3 sentences, I gave a real world example of what is wrong with U.S. Immigration policy. I do not see this as a state by state issue….people are not illegally crossing STATE borders, they are illegally crossing FEDERAL borders, so MY point is that someone who lives in St. Paul, Minnesota, or Washington, D.C, or French Lick, Indiana has every bit as much right to look to the FEDERAL government to create laws that are in line with AMERICAN values.

So, you can attack my comprehensiveness, but it doesn’t add any credence to your overlysimplitic world view in the eyes of any thinking person…just sayin’.

So, I say it’s a human rights issue when you start breaking up families and just kicking out otherwise law abiding people, when their only “crime” was that they wanted to seek a better life in America and found that the only “legal” way to do so was to first break the law. And what I hear back from you is that it’s so bad in California that you say “screw human rights”, my way or the highway, the only answer is to kick them out, and the only reason you don’t agree is because you don’t live here. Sounds a bit like xenophobia a close cousin of racism to me.

melly6708's avatar

When you dont have papers you cant get financial aid.. so they arent going to school for free.. unless they get a scholarship (which they earned by having good grades) second. if this country wasnt so racist and ignorant we could all be equal and no one would have to support anyone else. we would support ourselves.. my parents come here illegally and got their citizenship. and me and the rest of my siblings were born here..

the only reason that my parents came to the U.S.A. is because they wanted a better life for us .. even if u were born here in the USA u still have ancestors that were not form here and immigrated .. everyone has immigrant family..

it really upsets me that we as a country are doing this to people that are just like us .. u know california was once a huge part of mexico

sad to say :*(

Unsure's avatar

Mankind is wrong.
who are we to say “you cant go there” its primitive.
like a animal marking its territory.
any living thing should have the right to go where it pleases.

laureth's avatar

@Unsure – great! I’m coming to your house for dinner. ;)

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