What arguments would you use to defend that you eat meat?

Because its a natural thing to do. That being said, I have a lot of issues with the way many animals are raised (for the lack of a better word) and treated.

“The cow looked at me funny…”
I am a vegetarian

I am also a vegetarian. The arguments most commonly used (all of which, in my mind, are faulty):
“It’s natural.”
“Other animals do it.”
“They were raised for that.”
“If we didn’t eat them, they would take over the Earth.”
“I need meat. I can’t get my protein without it.”
“People have always eaten meat.”
“You shouldn’t tell me what to eat.”
“Cows/pigs/chickens are stupid.”
“Look at our big, pointy canine teeth!”

I am an omnivore and a creature of my culture. If I had been raised to eat no meat, I am sure I would be a vegetarian.

I wouldn’t defend my eating habits to anyone.

Curses @Jeruba you stole the first part of my answer!!!

Because I’m a omnivore and I love the taste of flesh.

“It tastes bad” is often an acceptable argument for being a vegetarian. That being said, I don’t have to defend why I eat meat.

But, meat contains nutrients that vegetarians and vegans need to take pills to get, animals eat each other and humans are animals, etc. And like @jeffgoldblumsprivatefacilities said, meat-eating folk don’t necessarily support the way some soon-to-be-eaten animals are treated.

I need protein and I’m too lazy/forgetful to take vitamins to supplement it. When I go without eating meat, I feel shitty. I don’t eat meat that often, but enough to keep me feeling ok.

It’s so tasty!
Sorry but it is!!!
Ok, because my teeth are designed for meat. And it is so tasty!

I don’t understand why vegetarians are so “holier-than-thou” about eating meat. It’s not like humans are the only animals that eat other animals. Give me a break. Even the Dalai Lama eats meat.

I have canines. They must serve a purpose.
and because it tastes good :P

@La_chica_gomela Oh, I don’t care about what you eat. I just care about what I eat. But I agree, it’s kind of condescending sometimes.

Why would I bother ‘defending’ what I eat? It’s nobody else’s business. I happen to think vegetarians are nuts, but I don’t go around telling them that.

No, vegetarians like nuts.

@oratio: It sure seems that the OP cares what other people eat though…

@La_chica_gomela We are, I believe, the only animals who torture their food for an extended period of time while it’s still alive.

That being said… When I ate meat it was because I firmly believe one reason animals are here is to be a food source for humans. and it’s yummy.

We as humans have teeth designed to tear flesh and a digestive system that is capable of breaking it down. We really are built and designed for it. I classify myself as and “on and off” vegetarian. I started a little while before the beginning of the year and lasted until the end of March. I didn’t do it because I didn’t want to eat animals. I did it to test myself. I still do it from time to time for short stents.

sigh- always the same tired, weak, easily-refuted arguments…don’t know if the OP meant this as a discussion of the pros and cons of vegetarianism, so I’ll leave it at that for now.

@crisw Well, I happen to think it’s not a matter of arguing at all.

This question isn’t looking for an answer. It’s clearly biased.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic
“What arguments would you use to defend that you eat meat? ”
Looks like I am looking for a answer.

@crisw I really don’t see how these arguments are “tired, weak and easily-refuted”. In my opinion, It’s just as easy to have a rebuttal for being a vegetarian. In my opinion, both sides have good decent points. This is like a Jewish man trying to tell a Muslim man that his views are “weak, tired and easily-refuted”.

@Likeradar
You’ve never seen our friendly whale neighbors play with their food or Monte in the bathroom

@SeventhSense GA or a cat getting tired of his “toy” when it finally dies, and he just walks away.

@Randy
What would those rebuttals be?
My main reason for not eating meat is because it’s immoral, we understand that killing is wrong because we have logic unlike other animals and we can understand what’s moral and immoral.

@SeventhSense You’re right, I hadn’t.

@YARNLADY- Damn, Ive never called you a name. :(

@joooon Yeah, too bad immoral and moral are inventions of humans. Of course animals don’t understand human concepts. And in terms of most religious morals, eating meat is fine.

@DominicX
Lets go out and kill people then or kick cats and dogs

@AstroChuck—??—-
@joooon but killing plants doesn’t count, right?

@DomninicX Has a good example right there, not to mention the others posted above

@YARNLADY
Only animals with feelings, the less emotions the less I care.

@joooon THAT IS BULL SHIT!

@Randy
Could you say how?

@joooon Feelings are an invention of human being to describe a lot of different chemical reactions, and the jury is still out on whether plants have them or not.

@joooon What animal doesn’t have feelings? What are you trying to prove here?

@YARNLADY
Feelings are objective

@Randy
A ant doesn’t have emotions or if they do not as complex as a dog

@DominicX lol…well, I don’t know about that. Some of us are aware of a difference between eating animals for food and abusing them for shits and giggles. Not to mention, most humans don’t kill each other for food. And it’s pretty obvious that humans are the only animals capable of killing for non-protective and non-food reasons. But listen, I don’t care if you’re a vegetarian; that’s fine. I just don’t want to be judged for eating meat or feel like it’s something I need to “defend”, especially against downright lame accusations.

@YARNLADY- Perhaps you might remember using the word “nuts” earlier?

@joooon How do you know? Are you an ant? Can you prove, without a doubt, these things you say?

@YARNLADY

There is zero scientific evidence that plants feel pain. Nor is there any evolutionary reason why they should. There is every evidence that vertebrates do feel pain, and every evidence that they feel it much as we do, You are usually pretty scientific; I am surprised at your response here.

@Randy
Using logic tell me they don’t and most people would agree

What’s not to like?
chicken,beef,veal,lamb,sheep,pork,bacon,ham,sausage,hot dogs,Goat,salmon,trout,swordfish,shark,alligator, mmmm I’m hungry

@AstroChuck like I said, I don’t go around telling them that, but if you want you can call me a “Plutoid Meat Eater” if you want

Why we feel pain? to avoid what is dangerous for us, If the plant can’t move, why plants should feel pain???

OK, let’s look, briefly, at the arguments I posted earlier, as no one yet has really given any others.
“It’s natural.”
“Other animals do it.”
Not good excuses. We have the ability to be moral, other animals do not. If we base our behavior on animals, we can also justify rape and infanticide.

“They were raised for that.”
That doesn’t give us a right, in and of itself, to kill them.

“If we didn’t eat them, they would take over the Earth.”
Untrue, of course. If we stop raising animals for food, they will not take over the Earth.

“I need meat. I can’t get my protein without it.”
There’s no scientific evidence that this is true. As far as your body is concerned, amino acids are amino acids.

“People have always eaten meat.”
That doesn’t make it right. People have aso always raped and murdered.

“You shouldn’t tell me what to eat.”
Your right to do any action ends where it harms others. This is a matter of harm.

“Cows/pigs/chickens are stupid.”
So are many of my coworkers. It doesn’t mean I’m justified in having them for lunch.

“Look at our big, pointy canine teeth!”
No, look at the canines of any real carnivore and see how puny ours really are. And, again, this doesn’t mean a thing, ethically.

I wouldn’t say it was just down to the animals emotion, I don’t think I could pin down why a life is important.

@YARNLADY- Nah, that’s alright. I don’t preach to others. I have my own set of ethics and try to live by them. When I ate meat I used to make all kinds of excuses why it was okay. I don’t feel it’s right for me. Everyone else can make up their own mind.

@joooon Ants try to get away from things that will kill them. That right there tells me they have some sort of feeling. It could be something like “I don’t want to die so that I may better serve my colony” or just simply “I don’t want to die”.

So it’s ok to eat and torture ants if we want? This is just getting stupid. Neither side has all the answers. Can’t we co-exist if we have the ability to be moral?

@joooon
“I don’t think I could pin down why a life is important.”

Sentient beings have lives that can go better or worse for them, and they prefer to go on living while maximizing the pleasure and decreasing the pain. That’s why life is important.

@Randy
“Can’t we co-exist if we have the ability to be moral?”

There may be gray areas, like ants. This doesn’t diminish the ability of vertebrates to suffer.

I LOVE @AstroChuck‘s answer. He does what’s right for him. GA Astro.

So many ways to go with this one.. let’s see:

1. I’m just not a fan of asparagus barbecue’s .
2. Cabbage hamburgers don’t go with ketchup.
3. Because cow’s are secretly plotting a hostile takeover of planet earth and we have to stop them.
4. Because without meat it’s just a lover’s pizza.. and that just doesn’t sound appetizing at all.
5. Without meat it’s just “the other white”.. and that sounds racist.. shame on you vegetarians.
6. If we didn’t eat some animals they would need to be culled anyway.. at which point they would just be dying for the greater good of the species anyway.. might as well eat them.
7. Because of smoked deer jerky.
8. well yes.. could go on and on with random things… but seriously

I eat meat because I was raised eating meat.. if you’re worried about the feelings of my t bone steak I really can’t rationalize much with you.

@crisw Some would argue that your right to do any action ends when it harms other humans. Also, like I said before, morals and ethics and subjective. Some people simply do not believe killing an animal for food is wrong. There is no “ultimate law” that says it is. Also, are you implying that a person’s right to eat meat should be taken away (ideally)?

@YARNLADY- Btw, what does plutoid meat taste like anyway?

@DominicX

Any usable moral system can’t be arbitrary. The decision to include all humans and no animals as worthy of moral consideration is arbitrary; there is no valid logical way to do this. Therefore, a morality that says “Only harming humans counts” is arbitrary. The fact that “some people simply do not believe killing an animal for food is wrong” doesn’t make it morally correct, any more than the fact that some people believe that slavery or discrimination is not wrong makes them correct.

I don’t know about moral or immoral…. To me its a weak argument to be vegetarian. I mean, to me its immoral to spend $50,000 on a necklace just because I want look “pretty”... but… that doesn’t change the fact that people can. spend the money whatever they wants….
I eat meat because I love it, it’s no immoral to me, I love my steak kind of bloody…

@crisw “Correct” is simply what we as humans have decided to be “correct”. So far, we haven’t decided that killing animals being wrong is “morally correct”. We decided slavery and discrimination were wrong because they harm other humans.

I’ve been on both sides of this argument before, as I’m sure most vegetarians have and to me they both have valid points. I can see why people want and do eat meat but I can also see why someone would want to give it up and never touch the stuff again. I just think it’s ridiculous to tell one side that they are wrong simply because you don’t agree with them. I was quick to defend the meat eaters just because I felt like that’s what was happening. I have plenty of reasons for both sides. You can’t talk a lion out of eating a wildebeest just as you can’t talk the wildebeest out of eating the grass. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

I thought there were no rights and wrongs in mortality

@Randy
Not just because I don’t agree with them but you are letting innocent animals die.

I don’t care if other animals kill or rape other animals but I feel we should harm animals just as we should have sex with them

innocent of what?

@DominicX

There is much more to it than that. I don’t believe that morality is entirely subjective; otherwise, anything that any group deems “correct” is allowable.

In the case of slavery, for example, the point wasn’t that it was wrong because it harmed humans, but that there was no significant difference between the groups of humans that allowed one group to be enslaved and the other to not be enslaved. All of the supposed “differences” used to support slavery were shown to be faulty; to be nonexistent or not morally important.

@crisw I can’t debate whether or not morality is subjective because I don’t know if it is or not and no one does. Christians believe that it is not and in their case, their ultimate law says that eating meat is acceptable because that’s part of the reason why animals exist in the first place. I can’t say I disagree with that.

And not anything is allowable. It’s only what enough people agree on. It’s a numbers game.

@Randy
“I just think it’s ridiculous to tell one side that they are wrong simply because you don’t agree with them. ”

This would be perfectly reasonable if this were an issue where no harm was involved. As soon as you introduce harm into the equation, then causing that harm needs to be morally justifiable in order for the practice to continue. It isn’t just a mater of “not agreeing.”

@crisw Before this turns into a morality debate and to put a really fine point on this: You believe that an animals right to live is as much of a right as it is for humans. Is this correct?

@DominicX

Morality has to be discernible outside of religious precepts, because almost anything is justified by some religion or another. Christianity can be and has been used to defend all sorts of horrid things.

@crisw I’m just presenting my theory of the universe…can’t be proven, but can’t be disproven either.

But you still didn’t answer my earlier question: do you think that ultimately there should be laws against eating meat (in your vision of a perfect world)?

Arguments that meat is not a natural diet for humans
There are several clues that indicate that humans were not meant to be carnivores.

* To start with, humans get easily sick if they eat raw meat, a sign that neither their stomach nor their immune system are designed for meat. Real carnivores have stronger stomachs that also “eat” the parasites, bacteria and worms of rotting meat.
* Humans cannot digest meat well: mostly they have to cook it. Carnivores don’t cook. Humans began eating meat on a large scale after the invention of fire.
* Humans are the only primates that eat meat (any animal can eat meat in small quantities, but no primate eats meat on a regular basis).
* Humans who eat a lot of meat get heart disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, and all sorts of degenerative disease. Carnivore animals who eat a lot of meat live healthy lives.
* When they don’t abuse of meat, humans live very long lives by the standards of the animal kingdom. It is herbivore animals not carnivore animals that have the longest lifespans. If humans were carnivores, they would be a striking exception to that rule.
* Humans need to sleep about the same amount of time as other herbivores, who sleep a lot less than carnivores.
* Human “canine” teeths are shared with horses, not with carnivores. There is no carnivore that has teeth like our canines. Horses have them. Whatever their function, it is not to eat meat.
* Last but not least, most humans are disgusted by dead animals. If you see a dead cat or dog or raccoon in the street, brains and entrails all splattered on the asphalt, you are more likely to vomit than to salivate the way a real carnivore would.

Arguments that meat is a natural diet for humans
http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/static/volumes/1999/Paper3.html (too long to post)

@drClaw

“You believe that an animals right to live is as much of a right as it is for humans. Is this correct?”

Not quite.

I believe that causing pain and suffering to animals and killing animals are ethical issues. I don’t believe that killing an animal is as wrong as killing a human, as the harm that death causes is influenced by the amount of self-awareness of the being involved. I do believe that killing animals (for any purpose) requires ethical justification (and that it is a much more involved and serious process than just saying “Yum, I love meat!”) and that treating animals as a means to an end is ethically reprehensible.

I don’t need to defend my right to eat that tasty Longhorn from the farm my husband works at. It’s at the butcher right now. Can’t wait!

@tyrantxseries A carnivore is an animal that eats primarily or entirely meat. Humans are omnivores, not carnivores. For me personally, I do not eat that much meat. Many of the things I eat are vegetarian and vegan. But I do like meat in many things and I am not about to give it up.

@jonsblond Oh, didn’t know Longhorns were still bred in the US for meat. Beautiful animal.

@DominicX
“Also, are you implying that a person’s right to eat meat should be taken away (ideally)?”

Yes, because it is not a “right.” This applies only to sentient animals; although there may be a gray area we certainly can put warm-blooded vertebrates, for example, on the sentient side.

@DominicX just something I found

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4 (not for the faint of heart)

@tyrantxseries Ah, the old scare tactics. Why don’t I show you some pictures of aborted fetuses? $100 says you’re pro-choice.

@DominicX read my first post before you say that

@tyrantxseries I read it. I’m just saying many pro-choice people are against the way abortions are done. Many pro eating-meat people are against the way animals are treated. I don’t condone what happens to many farm animals and if I wasn’t 17 years old, I’d be out there doing something about it. Me not eating a burrito is not going to do it, I’m afraid. And though I’d love to watch that beautiful movie, I am unfortunately of the faint of heart. :)

I couldn’t care less about how abortions are done
the video was just a response to “causing pain and suffering to animals and killing animals are ethical issues”
@DominicX here you go

I will be honest. I am a complete hypocrite.

The only way I have ever killed an animal was to put it out of it’s misery. I don’t hunt because I don’t believe I can. If it meant survival, yes.

Yet I eat meat because of the experience of eating the meat. And, I am sorry, I like the taste. My wife is a vegetarian. I have tried all manners of meat substitutes and they taste like meat substitutes.

The reality is 95% of my diet is meat free.

But in the end, I am a hypocrite.

You can respect animals and eat meat. That is one justification I would use.
A second one is that it is an integral part of my traditional culture.
A third would be that animals eat meat so why shouldn’t we ;)

Farmed meat is quite different than respectful gaming of meat.

@oratio Blondesjon’s boss has 27 heifers and 2 bulls, usually 20–25 calves. They keep back nine for farmhands and family since the meat is leaner, the rest are sold to be used as rodeo ropers.

@jonsblond Oh, interesting. It’s a hardy animal and a part of american history. Glad to hear they are still around.

I would shut up and keep eating my dinner in the same way I am letting everyone else eat theirs.

Personally, I eat meat because I’m fond of having muscle and bone mass. I was a vegitarian for 4 years because I bought into the idea that it was a healthier lifestyle… then I was diagnosed with osteoporosis at the age of 28, and had my doctor tell me that the most important thing I could do was start eating meat again… And I do LOVE a great tenderloin! Now, I raise all my own grass fed beef, free range chikens, etc, so I know it isn’t full of hormones, antibiotics, arsenic, etc. like the meat in grocery stores is, and I know it had a good life before I chow down on it.

@tyrantxseries you said Humans who eat a lot of meat get heart disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, and all sorts of degenerative disease. Carnivore animals who eat a lot of meat live healthy lives.
Then why do vegitarians get cancer, diabetes, and all the rest too?
Let’s say we all decide to be vegans. Do we have to give animals their own reservations, like we did with the indians? I am pretty sure that without it, their numbers will die off.

I think it all boils down to the circle of life. In the wild, the bigger, stronger, and most intelligent predator will eat the smaller, weaker one. In this case, we are the stronger predator, we are at the top of the food chain. There’s nothing to defend about that. Its life as it has been for centuries.

@filmfann that was from a random site
like this:
The Anti-Vegetarian Society of Meat Eaters (AVSME) isn’t really opposed to eating vegetables; they make great side dishes for big juicy steaks, stuffed inside chicken breasts with cheese, or served with flavorful pork chops. AVSME isn’t even opposed to the vegetarians themselves. But what grinds our nerves like Grade A ground chuck are the almost militant activities and comments from the most fanatical vegetarians and vegans. Carnivores and Omnivores are people, too.

We continue to see activist and political efforts aimed at being the “Kitchen Police,” telling people what they can and cannot eat. This is to what we are vehemently opposed. The most liberal of people scream bloody murder when the government creeps into their bedrooms, but somehow these same people want to force steamed broccoli down our throats and snatch away our rib eye steaks. For shame, fanatical vegans! For shame. You will need to pry our meat from our cold dead hands.

Nutritionists know that meat is a good source of vital protein. Meat lovers know that meat is tasty and delicious. Sounds like a powerful combination to the Anti-Vegetarian Society of Meat Eaters. We fully endorse meat and meat byproducts as part of a well-balanced, nutritional diet.
Re: http://www.freewebs.com/avsme/

It tastes good.

@AstroChuck In my world, Plutoid is an expletive

@ a few people above:

You do not need to take “pills” to get your protein if you don’t eat meat.

@crisw in response to your comment about easily disputed reasons, specifically:
“I need meat. I can’t get my protein without it.”
There’s no scientific evidence that this is true. As far as your body is concerned, amino acids are amino acids.

I would suggest you do some further research into physiology and specific requirements for basic metabolic cycles of the human body. There is so much scientific evidence on this topic that knowing where to begin is difficult.. so i’ll have to go back to my early experiences in medical school and resort to BASIC BIOCHEMISTRY. All amino-acids are not the same and there is a specific medical reason for which they are classified into groups.

Having said that here’s a small example of what i mean:

Eight amino acids are generally regarded as essential for humans: phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, isoleucine, methionine, leucine, and lysine. Cysteine (or sulphur-containing amino acids), tyrosine (or aromatic amino acids), histidine and arginine are additionally required by infants and growing children.

Essential amino acids are so called not because they are more important to life than the others, but because the body does not synthesize them, making it essential to include them in one’s diet in order to obtain them. In addition, the amino acids arginine, cysteine, glycine, glutamine, histidine, proline, serine and tyrosine are considered conditionally essential, meaning they are not normally required in the diet, but must be supplied exogenously to specific populations that do not synthesize it in adequate amounts. An example would be with the disease phenylketonuria (PKU). Individuals living with PKU must keep their intake of phenylalanine extremely low to prevent mental retardation and other metabolic complications. However, phenylalanine is the precursor for tyrosine synthesis. Without phenylalanine, tyrosine cannot be made and so tyrosine becomes essential in the diet of PKU patients.

The distinction between essential and non-essential amino acids is somewhat unclear, as some amino acids can be produced from others. The sulfur-containing amino acids, methionine and homocysteine, can be converted into each other but neither can be synthesized de novo in humans. Likewise, cysteine can be made from homocysteine but cannot be synthesized on its own. So, for convenience, sulfur-containing amino acids are sometimes considered a single pool of nutritionally-equivalent amino acids as are the aromatic amino acid pair, phenylalanine and tyrosine. Likewise arginine, ornithine, and citrulline, which are interconvertible by the urea cycle, are considered a single group.

Foodstuffs that lack essential amino acids are poor sources of protein equivalents, as the body tends to deaminate the amino acids obtained, converting proteins into fats and carbohydrates. Therefore, a balance of essential amino acids is necessary for a high degree of net protein utilization, which is the mass ratio of amino acids converted to proteins to amino acids supplied.

Complete proteins contain a balanced set of essential amino acids for humans. Animal sources such as meat, poultry, eggs, fish, milk, and cheese provide all of the essential amino acids. Near-complete proteins are also found in some plant sources such as quinoa, buckwheat, hempseed, and amaranth, among others. Soya is near-complete although this is contested. It is not necessary to consume plant foods containing complete proteins as long as a reasonably varied diet is maintained. By consuming a wide variety of plant foods, a full set of essential amino acids will be supplied and the human body can convert the amino acids into proteins.

I hope this was helpful. Just as you say some arguments that you feel go against your belief that eating meat is immoral are easily refuted, many arguments that you may feel validate your point are just as easily refuted.

If you need source information i would suggest going to your local library and finding any biochemistry textbook (from respected sources obviously)... i would recomend Matthews or Lheninger.. but it’s your choice.

Rant over.

I don’t really eat much meat. I often dine at McDonalds.

i eat meat because if i don’t, i start to grow a vagina. and i can’t afford the hygienic products.

PIGGIES ARE DELICIOUS.

And I don’t care if you don’t think that’s a valid answer.

nomnomnombaconnomnomnom

I eat meat because bacon exists

@asmonet that too. i mean, think about it – they wrap other stuff in bacon to make it better. it’s magic!

@Likeradar: Have you never seen The Discovery Channel? Wtf?

@crisw:

1. Morality is subjective. Your point can be disregarded. And rape and infanticide is a big jump. Have you ever seen mating rituals in the animal kingdom? That lioness will fuck up that lion for trying anything. As for infanticide, in the other animals there tends to be a level of understanding of population and parenting limits. They kill and eat their young for nutrients and for an overall benefit usually. Not for funsies.

2. I agree they wouldn’t take over the earth, because quite frankly we’ve bred them to be suitable for farming, not survivability. It would actually be cruel in my opinion to release those animals specifically bred for food.

3. Some people do in fact need animal proteins. The end.

4. You’re really set on comparing a steak dinner to rape and murder aren’t you?

5. Comparitively, animals are ‘stupid’. It’s neither here nor there. We eat monkeys, they’re ‘smart’.

6. Teeth are meant for multiple and specific purposes, you’re an idiot if you compare canines on omnivores to canines on carnivores. I shouldn’t have to explain why.

@asmonet re: #5 – i’m delicious!

And unintelligent!

Snap.

I think everyone on this thread should go here.

@asmonet not cool.

@Dr_C

” All amino-acids are not the same and there is a specific medical reason for which they are classified into groups.”

That was not what I meant.I am fully aware of this. What I meant was that once foods have gone through the digestive process. lysine from meat is no different than lysine from a bean.

You also didn’t provide any information that shows that a vegetarian eating a balanced diet doesn’t get enough protein, nor did you mention that the average US citizen – even the average vegetarian- eats too much protein-not too little.

@crisw i was specifically referring to amino-acid intake. It would take too long to go after each and every point and i actually have patients to treat.

As far as your lysine comment i have another small gem for you.

The net protein utilization is profoundly affected by the limiting amino acid content (the essential amino acid found in the smallest quantity in the foodstuff), and somewhat affected by salvage of essential amino acids in the body. It is therefore a good idea to mix foodstuffs that have different weaknesses in their essential amino acid distributions. This limits the loss of nitrogen through deamination and increases overall net protein utilization.

so for specific foods the following are the limiting amino acids:
Wheat – lysine
Rice – lysine
Legumes – tryptophan
Maize – lysine and tryptophan
Pulses – methionine (or cysteine)
Egg, chicken – none; (these are in fact reference for absorbable protein)

So to answer your last remark the body DOES know the difference in that in order to equal the amount of lysine the body would get from animal protein it would have to consume MASSIVE amounts of specific plants. Not only is that inefficient, eating such large quantities is also unhealthy and dangerous.

Next?

@asmonet
“Morality is subjective.”
Entirely? You think that there are no strictures on morality whatsoever? If someone wants to steal, for example, it’s moral because morality is subjective?

“And rape and infanticide is a big jump”
Not really. People try to justify eating meat because other animals do it. It isn’t much of a justification. It wouldn’t be accepted for these other issues; why should we accept it for meat?

“Some people do in fact need animal proteins. The end.”
There is a difference between a society where you “need animal protein” because you must eat it in order to to survive (like an aboriginal culture) and U.S. society. I haven’t seen any documentation that people in developed societies need meat (not just animal protein) to survive. Even if a few people did somehoe need to eat meat to survive, this wouldn’t, in and of itself, justify the wholesale killing of animals for food that our culture engages in.

“You’re really set on comparing a steak dinner to rape and murder aren’t you?”
Begging the question, aren’t you?

“Comparitively, animals are ‘stupid’. It’s neither here nor there. ”
The point is, being less intelligent than the average human doesn’t give us the right to eat them.

“Teeth are meant for multiple and specific purposes”
Of course they are. And I think it’s silly to use teeth as an ethical defense of meat eating. I am not the one doing that.

I eat meat because it’s delicious. I don’t expect a vegetarian to defend why they don’t eat meat so why should I have to defend myself? It’s nobody’s business what anyone else eats.

i think it stands to point out that in the late 1970s an event occurred that makes me wary of vegetables.

save a plant, eat a cow, i want meat and i want it now.

@Dr_C – Are you suggesting the vegetarian rout is the only answer as proven by your information, or that your information simply disproves some of crisw’s claims?

I am not trying to start another fight, just trying to benefit from your background.

@Dr_C

“So to answer your last remark the body DOES know the difference in that in order to equal the amount of lysine the body would get from animal protein it would have to consume MASSIVE amounts of specific plants. Not only is that inefficient, eating such large quantities is also unhealthy and dangerous.”

Are you a nutritionist? Funny, but professional nutritionists disagree with you.

”It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.”

“Most vegetarian diets consisting of a variety of foods and containing sufficient calories to meet energy needs are adequate in protein (24). All too often vegetarians are presented with charts and tables describing how to carefully combine proteins to meet protein requirements. This sort of conscious combining within a given meal is unnecessary (39) and should not be stressed as it may make a vegetarian diet seem much more complicated than it needs to be.”
Vegetarian Nutrition Practice Group of the American Dietetic Association

wait, vegetarians saying that a vegetarian diet is good for you? logical

well, i’m a charter member of the Extra Meat On That Please Association of North America (EMOTPANA), and we claim that you should eat what you want, and if you don’t want something, then don’t eat it. but, really, isn’t it better with a little lump o’ flesh?

we’re also quite happy when people shut the hell up about their preferences and just do their own thing.

@Bri_L i’m suggesting that a balanced diet is the answer. To discount one food source because of your own sense of morality has nothing to do with the basic science of what your body needs. Notice how crisw is quoting dietitians and not any medical text backed up by scientific investigation. His quote mentions protein as far as ammount while completely ignoring the issue of essential amino-acids that CANNOT be obtained from plan sources.

I’m not against eating plants or meat.. eat what you like and what you think is right. Just don’t go around being sanctimonious and condemn the eating habits of others in a holier-than-thou tone without the knowledge, background and scientific proof to back it up.

It’s one thing to stand up for your beliefs if they are threatened… it’s quite another to try and force them onto others (while using a shaky source at best).

So no @Bri_L , i’m not saying that the vegetarian route is the only answer.. or that all meat is either for that matter. I’m saying balance is the key in all things… be it foo, science, and conversation.

Cheers.

P.S. the AMMOUNT of protein has nothing to do with the QUALITY AND FUNCTIONALITY of protein (which has EVERYTHING to do with their source).

and btw @crisw no i’m not a nutritionist… i’m a doctor (as the name states). And if nutritionist care to disagree that’s their choice. Just like some people choose to do things that may not be in their own best interest. Again.. choice.

@crisw: I’d steal to feed my child. Is that wrong?

I was done reading your post right about there.

@Dr_C – thank you for your input.

@Bri_L my pleasure :)

@Dr_C

“His quote mentions protein as far as ammount while completely ignoring the issue of essential amino-acids that CANNOT be obtained from plan sources.”

I am female.

And how, specifically, do you discount what professional dietitians say? Of course I am quoting them; they are experts in the field. Don’t you think you’re possibly doing what you are accusing me of- ignoring the evidence? It is scientifically indisputable that vegetarians can and do get enough protein, easily. Surely you could otherwise point to research studies supporting your position?

@crisw – I also want to thank you for all the links and input you have provided.

@crisw i sincerely apologize. I had no idea you were female.
And as far as providing you with more info (besides what i gave earlier) i pointed you in the direction of a couple of great medical texts (you can’t expect me to do ALL your research for you).

And you are welcome to continue to quote as many dietitians ad you like.. i discount them since i have more experience in biochemistry and human physiology (it came with that fancy Med School diploma hanging on my wall).

I don’t expect you to agree with me in any way and have no desire to turn this into a fight. Believe what you want and be happy. I for one will go with proven science and clinical experience as well as established medical science over dietitians.. but that’s just me.

And one more thing… dietitians are experts in the field of designing meal plans… where as i am an expert in the field of human physiology.

Either way none of what i have written has been a direct attack on you and i again apologize for confusing you with a male (the name and avatar are gender neutral so i took a guess). I’m simply stating what the medical stand-point is. Take that as you will.

There are some entire societies that do not have meat in their diet, and I think they would laugh at some of these spurious arguments about protein.

@YARNLADY yes, they probably would. probably because they also think cameras steal their soul.

@Dr_C

I doubt that your biochemistry text even mentions vegetarianism. I will however, check it out on my next visit to UCSD. I still see no research documenting any problems with protein on a vegetarian diet. I could spend a few minutes on Medline and quote dozens of studies to support this position. Again, the research of many doctors and scientists (not just dietitians) disputes your position.

However, my chief claim is that vegetarianism is a moral issue; that eating meat has ethical consequences. These cannot be simply brushed aside as a non-issue; it’s the core of the discussion.

@eponymoushipster they also think cameras steal their soul” What on earth is that supposed to mean? I was refering to the majority of the people of Asia and India.

I don’t eat meat, but it really tastes good, I won’t deny that. For me, I don’t think it’s the act of eating meat that raises questions of morality; eating meat is normal, usually tasty, and can be healthy. The morality problem arises for me when society is disconnected from it’s sources of food.

Humans are, whether good or bad, now the stewards of Earth. Our decisions effect not only the physical health of the planet and it’s ecosystems, but also the health or our communities, and minds. When we have millions upon millions of animals thoughtlessly confined, de-beaked & de-horned , injected, force-fed, mutilated, and slaughtered for the mere “good taste” we have a very large problem as a society.

I am a vegetarian that disagrees with most other vegetarians and vegans. Eating meat is not wrong but, we agree on one point: how we raise and care for the animals that provide the meat is wrong.

@crisw if it is a moral issue then let the meat eaters eat their meat and you keep eating your veggies. At the end you will have done what you think is right and the meat eaters will suffer their consequence (if any) and everybody can be happy eating whatever flatters their taste buds :-)

a little treat for everyone… all in good fun

@Dr_C
@crisw
The greatest source of chain link amino acids essential for muscle growth and rebuilding is eggs and milk. There’s a reason the embryo and the infant mammal thrive on them.

- Because it tastes good
– Because I can
– Because I’m a carnivore
– Because there isn’t anything wrong with eating meat
– Because it’s not an immoral act to eat meat
– Because domesticated cattle are raised for human food consumption
– Because I don’t like to eat chicken, lamb, and fish every day of the week
– Because Steak is one of my food groups
– Because vegetarians will never change my mind about eating meat
– Because my body requires protein and meat is a good source of that
– Because I don’t have a guilt complex
– Because my barbecue grill needs attention now and then

@SeventhSense i agree completely… and both of those are animal products… go figure!

@Bluefreedom you sir are a gentleman and a scholar. (can i have some of that BBQ?)

You just can’t plant a T-Bone. :)

@SeventhSense that’s what she said

@Dr_C. You bet. Let’s have a massive Fluther cookout. =)

Whats with the large amount of people on this thread claiming that they don’t have to defend any of their decisions regarding what they eat or don’t eat? Yes you do have to provide justification for your actions. For any society to work people must be accountable for their actions.

@benjaminlevi

People have provided plenty of reasons why, but none of them are accepted by the “other side”.

If a cow had a chance it would eat you!
Beware..for the cow comes, judgment day is upon us all! Everyone knew this day would come! It was only a matter of time..now everybody is caught off guard by the cow eating whole family’s! We’re the products now! we only did this to ourselves..Good luck everybody..

Bovine Apocalypse Now!

@eponymoushipster
badumbump

Eating meat is being part of the Earth. I’m from the Earth, I’m made of Earth, I eat Earth, I become Earth at death.

It’s the circle of life.

@boots you eat earth? isn’t that taking the no eating living things thing a bit too far??? (P.S. great answer :) )

We all eat carbon life forms.

Let us not forget the dangers of technology…. after all Soilent green is MADE OF PEOPLE!

AGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhh
It’s PEEEEEEEEOOOOOOPLLLEEEE!!!!!

@Dr_C Yes. I eat Earth. I’m about to eat yours right now, so I’d get into that space ship if I was you…

It all boils down to one thing. Vegetarians have their reasons for NOT eating meat. Omnivores have their reason FOR eating meat. Diet is a personal choice, like religion. Do I care if some vegetarian thinks my morals suck because I eat steak? fuck no, I gave up caring what people think of my life choices a long time ago.

And, like someone up there said earlier, I feel no need to justify my diet to anyone. I eat meat, I like meat, I’ve hunted and killed my own meat, I was raised hunting, trapping, fishing and I refuse to let some one who eats only plant matter decide what is right for me. All that ‘moral guilt’ the vegetarians try to use to change my eating habits IS NOT going to work.

@Dr_C um, it’s Soylent Green.

@benjaminlevi That’s a whole other discussion: Ethics = Freedom, Rights, Values, Morality, Responsibility, Humane, Principles, Virtue, Moral right, Moral responsibility, Human rights, Animal rights.

We can all agree that we need to take responsibility for the consequences of our choices, but there is a lot of room for discussion as to exactly what those consequences are.

@evelyns_pet_zebra. Your answer is excellent! Kudos to you!

@Bluefreedom thanks

Eat beef, free ranged cattle, feeding on quality natural range grasses concentrated in nutrients, you have to eat a boat load plant life to equate, bison and wild game are great as well. It’s expensive, but worth the price, or find a friendly rancher. Hey, most ancients diets prescribed, and shoot Noah lived to over a hundred.

Yet another evolutionary adaptation of humans in favor of meat eating is that iron (an essential metal) is significantly better absorbed in the form of heme (the central molecule in blood hemoglobin and muscle myoglobin). As such, ~25% of heme iron is absorbed, whereas non-heme (or free) iron is only absorbed at ~2–5%. Thus, it appears that the human digestive tract evolved to absorb heme iron better than free iron. Why this occurred is anyone’s guess, but it certainly points towards an evolutionary advantage to meat eating.

@kheredia
“if it is a moral issue then let the meat eaters eat their meat and you keep eating your veggies. ”

That’s not how morality works,. If a practice is immoral, you don’t ignore it; you try to stop it.

“At the end you will have done what you think is right and the meat eaters will suffer their consequence”

That doesn’t work too well if you’re an atheist :>)

@crisw So, if someone thinks atheism is immoral, then, by the same token, they should try to stop it?

@YARNLADY
“We can all agree that we need to take responsibility for the consequences of our choices, but there is a lot of room for discussion as to exactly what those consequences are.”

However, almost no one here is discussing that. People are making flippant “yum, meat is good” comments. The ethical issues are largely, being ignored.

@eponymoushipster

Well, first, you’d have to discuss why atheism is immoral by showing how the practice harms sentient beings, and give logical reasons why it is so.

As I mentioned, people in this discussion are largely ignoring the ethical implications of meat eating for facile, flip answers. Most of the real issues haven’t even been mentioned- not just animal suffering but environmental and political issues as well. I doubt anyone can make a truly sound ethical case for the morality of factory farming, as a start.

It troubles me that people are, essentially, willing to discard ethical thinking for personal pleasure. Like it or not, that is what the majority here have done. In any field of ethics where the lives of sentient beings are negatively impacted, “it feels good” is not an adequate ethical defense.

I am part of a whole. I consume part of the whole and eventually another part will consume me.

That’s all there is to that for me. I eat and will be eaten. If not by animals then by plants (which vegetarians eat in return).

@benjaminlevi

Lurve to you. I am feeling just a bit lonely here :>)

@crisw maybe they’re discounting what you say because of the way you say it. in fact, i know some of them are. and the fact that you’re bombing the thread just drives people in the opposite direction.

as for your rules, you and i both know that any logical reason i might give you you would attempt to counter and run around. or spit rhetoric. much like you’re doing on this subject.

Thankfully, there aren’t too many vegetarians here in the Midwest. Say what you like about your supposed benefits of being a vegetarian, but dietary choices are personal. No one has the right to force their morals on you.

self-righteous vegetarian extremists really piss me off.

When it comes to the philosophy of “morality” the best minds of all mankind have not reached any consensus. No one can simply assert they have a moral compass, or they are the moral authority, and expect anyone to take it seriously.

Seriously, who cares? If you want to eat meat, eat it. If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t eat it. This question is right up there with gay marriage, abortion, and religion as far as I’m concerned. Blech.

P.S. Bacon = awesome.

@essieness lurve for the p.s.

@essieness and @eponymoushipster this is for you guys… enjoy!

@Dr_C everything is better with bacon. even vegetables.

@eponymoushipster

I’m bombing the thread???

(shakes head in dismay as she notices yet again that she’s the only one here making any concerted effort to actually take the pro-animal-rights point of view.)

@crisw well, if you feel that your efforts are in vain, perhaps you should stop then?

you’ve had two doctors (@Dr_C and @shilolo) give you valid scientific information. others have stated that if that’s your choice, fine, but they’re not interested.

people have obviously stopped taking interest in your rhetoric.

^^ FTW ^^

@crisw I grow up in a farm, we raise our own chicken and turkey, they walked free for the backyard… They never was pets, they were food… it’s no immoral eat animals for me. If you are defending the animals rights, think about this… It is the industry the immoral monster who make suffer the animals because they want more profit, so the capitalism is immoral too? maybe…

@eponymoushipster
It’s not a issue of biology but of morality. I would make eating meat illegal if I ran a country

@joooon. And you might very well end up running that country for the shortest time ever. The portion of the public that wants to eat meat will either vote you out of office or remove you from office via a convenient coup of some sort. I might have to be the organizer of it too. Sorry, I have to have a 16 oz. Prime Rib at least twice a month.

I think what must happen is that those who eat meat and those fighting for animal rights must compromise and eventually come to an agreement. I don’t think you will ever stop the consumption of meat in the world, but what can be done is change the way animals are treated before they are consumed. I think meat eaters and vegetarians can work together on that one. So vegetarians should stop slamming people for eating meat, but should turn their gaze to the industries and organisations that supply the meat, and make sure the animals are raised in a harm free, ethically acceptable environment.

I feel the same way about cloning animals- I have no ethical qualms with the actual cloning (well, I actually do at the present moment, but when the technology is perfected, it should be no different to what would occur naturally). I think someone on Fluther once said “adding another level of suffering and cruelty to our food production does not say much for us as a supposedly superior species.” I agree. First, we must sort out the problems that are already in the meat industry.

We need to stop boiling chickens alive and stop keeping cows in too small enclosures. I will not stop eating meat, for that will achieve nothing. But we definitely need to improve the welfare of our normal animals, and I think that vegetarians and omnivores alike must work as a team to fix that.

@Bluefreedom
I’m from the UK

@joooon. Staging a coup in England might be a little risky in today’s day and age so I’d better rethink my strategy. I’ll mull that over while noshing on some beef ribs and some vegetables.~

@Bluefreedom
Not England

@joooon. Edit:

Staging a coup in the United Kingdom might be a little risky in today’s day and age so I’d better rethink my strategy. I’ll mull that over while noshing on some beef ribs and some vegetables.~

Sorry for automatically assuming it was England. That was dumb of me and sometimes I’m too narrow minded for my own good.

Because it tastes good :)

Seriously though, I don’t need to have a reason. Our bodies process meat, it’s a good protein source, thus I eat meat. I also eat beans for the same reason. Nor do I need to defend myself – what are you going to do, take my steak from me? From the UK? You better have really long arms :)

Sure there are ethical quandaries about the mass raising of animals. There are also alternatives available many places, so the consumer can educate themselves and choose a more sustainable food process if they wish to. I am not burdened by such things as I accept such actions are currently required to sustain our large population. Will I accept this all of my life? Hell no, in fact I fully intend to own my own small farm within a few years so that I can raise my own animals and give them happy, fun, and safe lives in return for them sustaining me. There are many who will not do such actions. It is not my place to tell them how to run their lives nor to deny them putting a food in their bodies.

What right would you have to deny people eating meat if you ran a country? You’d quickly see your population drop if you did such a thing. Have fun policing people’s suppertimes and arresting them for eating even a scrap of meat. Oh, and does that include animal byproducts too? No cheese, no milk or cream, no eggs, no animal fats? :)

Keep your government out of my dinner table. I don’t believe in animal “rights.” I believe that rights are an invention of man, and as such, should not be extended to animals. Doing so places beasts on the same moral plane as humans, and I’m sorry, but I just can’t buy that. Animals have no consciences; they haven’t the ability to contemplate ethics. While we have a responsibility to cause no unneccesary suffering, we have no responsibility to extend to them the same rights we would our neighbor.

Further, there is nothing immoral when a dolphin devours a fish; no moral infrction when a cheetah takes down an antelope. If we are nothing more than glorified apes—if we are a part of the animal kingdom, then there is no difference when we eat meat.

And isn’t it nice to live in a society so abundant in the neccesities of life that we can argue that a basic staple of mankind’s diet since the dawn of time is suddenly immoral? How many millions of starving people in the less fortunate parts of the world would love to be well enough fed to be able to ponder the morality of meat?

@YARNLADY: Even the poor in those regions eat meat and raise animals. It’s actually the cheapest and most readily available source of protein. I don’t know what societies you’re referring to. Asian and Indian food focuses quite heavily on meats.

And the Bovine Apocalypse reminded me of this.

@Poser
You believe in no rights for animals, so if I killed my pets would you care?

What i love about all this is that people will argue that humans evolved from animals (like @crisw has in the past), basically stating we are simply a higher animal, yet when someone like @Poser says that we are part of the food chain, and eat other animals, just as other members of the animal kingdom (i.e. dolphins & fish), people discount that and say ”But noooo…..humans are different”.

So which is it? Are we simply animals, evolved from other animals, or are we something different? Pick. And until such time, please stop talking.

…you’re nearly ruining the flavor of my delicious breakfast meats.

The final crux of this whole argument comes down to this. Grazing animals are raised on land too hilly or otherwise unsuitable for raising crops. I live in IL. We raise a lot of animals bound for the slaughterhouse. IOWA raises corn and soybeans almost exclusively, as well as some livestock. These crops are fed to livestock, as well as being used for other products. The agricultural corporations, i.e. John Deere, etc would have to completely retool their factories to produce machines to grow other crops. This would cost billions. And, they would not be willing to do it for a trade off that could turn out to be nonprofitable. They considered it for switchgrass (used to make ethanol much easier than using corn) and decided it wasn’t going to be profitable. Like it or not, without the big agricultural corporations behind the idea, your plan to make meat consumption illegal is doomed to fail. The loss of jobs related to the meat industry would make the latest Big Three automaker layoffs look like a picnic in the park.

The people who choose to be vegetarians for purely moral reasons are hypocrites and are too busy viewing the world through Disney-colored glasses. There simply is not enough arable land in the world to support a completely vegetarian lifestyle for everyone. Even if we figured out a way to turn the vast deserts of the world into farmland, do we have the right to do it? Water is a finite resource in the world. Do we use it to turn deserts into farmland, and if so, at whose expense? What about the animals that call the desert home? Where do we put them, in a zoo? Animal products provide a much needed source protein that NO vegetable matter can easily compensate for on a cheap worldwide basis.

Your morals and animal activism aside, Mankind can never survive purely on a vegetarian lifestyle. The planet simply doesn’t have enough land mass. I admire your attempts to ease the suffering of animals, but your plans are poorly thought out and unrealistic. Without the backing of very powerful movers and shakers in the world, people will continue to see you as crackpot extremists.

Besides that, the vegetarian lifestyle has NOT been proven to be the best lifestyle for humans, despite what the feel-good alternative medicine and lifestyle people have to say. Humans have survived on meat for millions of years, your recent vegetarian lifestyle based on guilt is at best a few decades old.

And finally, what do we do with the animals that have been bred for thousands of years as livestock? Turn them loose to run wild and free? They would all die horrible deaths because they are no longer able to protect themselves from wild predators or virulent disease. Do we eat them down to the last one, and let them go extinct? Hardly the humane thing to do. Keep them as pets? Who really wants a 4,500 lb. pet bull in the house?

You say you care about the rights of animals, but you haven’t really thought anything out, have you? You place the rights of animals over the rights of humans, which is the most perverse thing I have ever heard of. Equal rights is even silly. Tell that to a wild tiger in the Indian foothills next time you go on vacation there. See if it pays attention before it bites your kid’s head off.

Take your head out of the Bambi and Thumper cartoons for awhile, and try living a life based on reality and economics. Talk to people who raise animals as meat, instead of simply labeling them all as monsters out for evil profit. Talk to real hunters, instead of labeling them psychopaths.You are lucky to live in a place where you can disparage these things with complete freedom.

…It tastes good.

Further, I reject your hypothesis that the killing of animals (for food or otherwise) is inherently immoral. Where along the line did death become some unnatural episode to be avoided in all cases, for all reasons whatsoever? For the entire history of life on this planet, death has simply been another step in—to borrow a cheesy phrase—the circle of life. It can’t be avoided, neither through the religion of god(s), nor the religion of science.

I don’t hasten death, for myself or any other being. I recognize the tragedy of losing those we love (people!). But I will never apologize for eating a non-sentient being for my survival.

@jooon—as a matter of fact I couldn’t care less if you killed your pets. I would consider it rather hypocritical, considering your stance on this issue. But I find it difficult to muster emotions about strangers I hear about being killed on the news (people!), so forgive me if I don’t hold your Fluffy and Rex in high enough esteem to give two shits about.

But it brings up a good point for all you vegists (that’s a term I just coined. A cross between vegiterian and facist). If killing animals is always wrong, was my mother wrong for putting my sick cat to sleep when I was a kid?

I don’t usually have opinions on what people eat, as I don’t think it’s wrong to eat meat per se, and I would strangle a goat with my bare hands if I saw a point in it, other than that I hate goats and some of them are truly evil.

@evelyns_pet_zebra

I have some arguments about what you wrote.

I think I see where you are coming from and I agree about some of what you say, but how did you come to the conclusion that water is finite? I would say that it is the most replenishable resource there is. Sure, we lose some of it into space each year.

There simply is not enough arable land in the world to support a completely vegetarian lifestyle for everyone
Quite the opposite. What do you think meat animals eat? It takes far more resources to make meat than vegetarian food products.

It can’t be hypocritical to be a vegetarian, but it can be hypocritical to try to force a morality on others that is not shared. Just like with religion. I think some people feel a bit superior sometimes as they consider their morality higher. There are so many reasons for why people become vegetarians.

————————————————————————————————————————

I am a vegetarian for my own reasons. I don’t care if some people eat meat or not, but on a global scale, meat production is contributes to the destruction of the environment as we grow in numbers. If you want to help the environment as an individual, quitting meat is a start. That is one aspect that I think people might agree with. The moral in that is not about the meat itself.

It’s accepted that cars are bad, but that the meat production weighs heavily on the environment, hasn’t sunk in. When we were one billion people in the first half of the 1800’s, it wasn’t a problem. Now are soon to be nine billion, where most of us eats meat and raise cattle to meet that demand.

I was raised on a farm, with beef and sheep and all kinds of grain. We also hunted and I helped slaughter animals at a young age. We used to throw the moose’s balls to the eager dogs on the outside. It is natural for all things to die, and it’s natural to both eat or not eat meat.

But if you want to talk about hypocrisy, how many of you people who eat meat has ever or would be ready to kill an animal with a knife or a gun? Most people who say it’s natural say so as long as somebody else does it and delivers it to the store. I am not really saying that you are hypocrits, but I am saying that most people don’t consider what they actually say when they talk about whats natural or not.

There is only one reason to eat meat, and that’s because it tastes good as you don’t really need it. But if you want to eat meat, I don’t really care. Most vegetarians I know are not that high and mighty about what others should eat.

@oratio
@evelyns_pet_zebra
Well put and salient points for both of you.

@oratio

People who eat meat don’t have to enjoy killing animals. I would never want to have to kill one. But there are lots of things that people have and get that they have no part in. Nobody wants to spend hours on a farm in the hot sun harvesting grapes and yet they drink wine. And in my opinion, it would be natural if I were to kill an animal and eat it myself. I just don’t want to have to do that.

@DominicX Absolutely. My comment was merely to point out that most people would hesitate to kill an animal, yet state that it is natural for them to eat meat, calling vegetarians hypocrites. But you are quite right. It would be quite unfortunate if everything you consumed had to come from your own labor.

If you’ve seen a animal kill a lot of you would reconsider eating meat. The first time I saw a lobster killed I felt sick and have never eaten meat again.

@joooon and @DominicX—Those are pretty bold statements. Not everyone is as squeamish as you. I have, in fact, seen an animal killed for my food. It made me hungry and more appreciative of the animal that gave its life for my meal. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the opportunity to kill my own meal—yet. As a matter of fact, I was just talking to my grandfather today about the possibility of going bowhunting on family land this deer season, as I’ve never had the opportunity to go.

@joooon
I’ve caught fish, cut them open, examined the contents of their stomachs, filleted them and made sushi on the spot. Talk about fresh.

@Poser

I don’t think I really made a bold statement. I’m just saying that the killing of animals and blood and guts and gore and violence is something that I have a low tolerance for; I am pretty squeamish. But I don’t expect everyone to be that way and there are plenty of people who kill animals and don’t have any problem doing it and eat meat.

@SeventhSense
I did say a lot and not all.
Reading back that comment it seems like I was trying to guilt trip people into saying it’s wrong, I hope it didn’t come across like that for everyone else.

I think it has a lot to do with your body type and body’s dietary needs as well.

@SeventhSense You think people need different diets? Interesting thought.

@oratio
Of course, as well as caloric intake.
The three body types of ectomorph, mesomorph and endomorph have significantly different cravings and bodily needs. The concept of not listening to our bodies and falling back on an idea is what gets us in trouble.

The little toddler who pushes away tomatoes may be showing more than picky taste buds. His body may not be able to handle the acidic nature of the fruit. This guy might not crave anything other than carbs. But this guy may crave meat proteins to feed muscle mass. We’re not all the same.

@SeventhSense I agree that crossing your instincts will get you in trouble, as well as not listening to your body. When I feel like having spinage, I believe the body tells me it needs something that it has found earlier when I ate spinage, and thus telling me to eat that. Though, I have come to the conclusion that when I feel like having candy, those instincts are hopelessly out of date by some hundred years.

I have never heard about those body types though, but since some people have obvious differences in eye sight and other senses, it would be rational to expect people to have different levels of effectiveness and needs in other organs, and the body as a whole. Also, If we were all exacly the same, we would have little opportunity to change in the aspect of evolution.

That we have different dietary needs also fits well into the fact that we gain weight slightly different, and lose it different.

Thank you, this was very interesting, and I will look it up further.

Well the sugar craving is a carbohydrate craving as well. The body breaks down all carbohydrate into glucose. The body burns carbohydrate, proteins and fat in that order. Excess glucose from caloric intake is stored as fat. The idea that eating animal fats cause us to store fat is erroneous.

I have eaten nothing but fat and protein at times and lost significant weight. And I am talking pounds of meat and butter and mayonnaise and bacon etc. The basis of this weight loss is restricting carbohydrates(which are in everything in the form of sugar) and creating a state of ketosis. The body will naturally look to burn fats and proteins when the first option is limited. I have both raised my healthy cholesterol and lowered my poor cholesterol on this diet as well. There is much to be discovered with regards to the ideal diet and especially saturated fats role in heart disease. Up until the 20th century heart disease was very limited in scope and they literally lived off the “fat of the land”.

I think the level of stress, processed empty calorie foods, refined sugars and excess carbohydrate consumption will prove to be far more damaging than any fat or protein consumption. The poorer areas of this country are a perfect example. Hypertension and diabetes are rampant and that is not as a result of excess protein or saturated fats from meat sources but excess sugar and empty carbohydrates consumed because they are cheap and filling.

I hypothesize that there is a link in the combination of carbohydrates and saturated fat to weight gain and health problems significantly more than their independent contribution.

@SeventhSense Not to mention the sugar substitutes. You are messing with the body right there, big time. Lol, quite out of context of the question, but highly interesting.

“yay” going out tomorrow night:
mmmmmm
or
mmmmmm

I wonder if is Immoral to eat Strawberries and Vegetables from those fields where illegal immigrant died every year because the bad working conditions. They don’t even get minimum salary or hourly salary, not benefits… I lot of them just receive money in exchange for tokens, they receive a token for every basket of Strawberries.

@asmonet I don’t know what societies you’re referring to. Asian and Indian food focuses quite heavily on meats. Your comment is not supported by the evidence.

@YARNLADY unfortunately, reading the whole article, and not just the title, points in another direction.

via your link

CHINA: In China, although still a fairly rare practice, vegetarianism has been around since at least the 7th Century and has been practised by devout Buddhists.

ISRAEL: In Israel, practicing lacto-ovo vegetarianism is relatively easy, due to Jewish dietary laws, or kosher laws. Kosher food cannot contain pork or shellfish, and meat and dairy cannot be combined in any way. As a result, most kosher restaurants serve either only dairy or only meat, along with bread, vegetables, fruits, etc. Fish, however, is not considered to be meat under Jewish laws, so it may be served in “dairy” restaurants. Nonetheless, the “dairy” restaurants are usually a very safe bet for ovo-lacto-vegetarians.
please note, this indicates that you can be a vegetarian, not that it’s the default for that culture.

Annd via a separate, wiki’d article in that article about India itself

According to the 2006 Hindu-CNN-IBN State of the Nation Survey[1], 31% of Indians are vegetarians, while another 9% consumes eggs. ...These surveys indicate that even Indians who do eat meat do so infrequently, with less than 30% consuming it regularly, although this is often for economic rather than religious or other reasons.

Not big on the weightlifting circuit out there in India…come to think of it.. Indian athlete?
Ok, maybe there’s this guy.
Apparently he collapsed inches from Bombay Burger….

The immorality of the issue isn’t in the actual death or eating of the animals but in the way they are kept. You can tell a lot about a person or an entire society by the way they treat animals.

@DominicX I was referring to the many people who stated that the decision to eat meat was merely a personal opinion, such as their favorite baseball team, or refused to defend their actions. What they implied was as if they made their decision in isolation from other beings. It could only be considered a morally irrelevant opinion only if we assume both that animals can be used in whatever way we want and that the methods used to produce and ship the meat have no major negative effects on the local or global environment.

@oratio, animals that graze usually do so on land not fit to plow. Too hilly, too swampy, whatever. You think I’m just pulling this information out of my ass? I was born and raised in a rural environment, I know about farming because I have been surrounded by it my entire life. I have hunted, and fished, and I am planning on a vacation to Canada in the near future to take in some hunting and fishing. I am quite able to kill an animal, skin it, gut it, clean it, cook it and eat it. I’ll bring you back some moose burgers to go with your tofu and bean sprouts.

Fresh water is a finite commodity. Visit the American Southwest and see what is happening out there with water rights. The Colorado river doesn’t empty into the sea, it simply dries up, as it is diverted to Las Vegas and California. There is only so much fresh water freely available on the earth. I believe the scientist I listened to said that about 2% of Earth’s water is potable, even though the 80% of earth is covered with water. A lot of water is polluted and would be expensive to clean. Check the Salton Sea in Southern CA. The Mississippi River, which I have lived near my entire life is a friggin cesspool of PCBs and mercury and god knows what else. The town I live in takes its water from that river, and you should see the chemicals they have to add to it simply to get it clean enough to drink.

Sure, the oceans are water, but to desalinate them creates a lot of waste material. The salt has to be dumped somewhere. Where is all this arable land you speak of? We’d have to plow up the golf courses, the cemeteries, the land owned by the Catholic church (one of the largest landowners in the world) as well as most private property. We are farming as much land as possible now, and it still isn’t enough. Even if we had enough land to farm, crops rely on the weather. A wet spring ruins the growing season, a long hot summer causes droughts. Insects and blight destroys a lot of crops.

I don’t give a flying fuck if someone is a vegetarian or not. I have a very close friend that is a vegetarian. He of course sees no need to enforce his dietary choice on anyone. When people say shit like: I am an animal rights activist and I want to make the eating of meat illegal, well that pisses me off. If you don’t want to eat meat, then don’t. But to try and enforce your veg-head morals on others is just wrong. You will not pass any of those laws without a fight. Take away my steak, and perhaps I’ll start eating animal rights activists instead.

It is those same animal rights activists that shut down all the horse slaughterhouses in America. Many of my friends that raise horses found suddenly that they could no longer recoup some of their losses by selling their unwanted animals for meat. Now the meat goes to waste by being buried in the ground. And to bury a large animal, one needs a permit. That’s one more expense. Digging a hole big enough to put a full sized horse into isn’t an easy chore. I’m just sick and tired of these self-righteous folks thinking they hold the moral high ground when they obviously haven’t thought it all the way through. One of my supervisors raises horses and has done so for many years. When she found out that she could no longer depend on a local slaughterhouse to cull some of her unwanted horses, I thought she was going to explode. I think if an animal activist had been in the room that day, she would have torn them to bits with her bare hands.

You can disagree all you want. I know of what I speak, I have lived the lifestyle. I have shot plenty of game over the years, and will still do so when the opportunity arises. I am proud to be a hunter and a fisherman, and I won’t lie down and let some namby-pamby self-righteous animal activist walk all over my rights to eat any damn thing I feel the need to eat.

@evelyns_pet_zebra
Easy Ted Nugent. No one’s taking your elephant gun away. :)

@SeventhSense Don’t compare me to Ted Nugent, I don’t even like that guy. Another stereotype that all hunters are Nugent fans.

@benjaminlevi – I really don’t see how “that the methods used to produce and ship the meat have no major negative effects on the local or global environment.” are, right now, very different from what is done with with vegetarian goods. They are mass produced and shipped.

A friend of mine read this today and went a little nutty telling me about how grazing is destroying crops and how the sheer number of heads of cattle is harmful to the environment since (his words not mine) “Cow flatulence is contributing to the green-house effect and therefore global warming!!!”... so he asks me how i can condone this and then screams at me “what do you think this will do to the environment? do you think this cow flatulence thing is ok? what do you suggest we do about it?”
So i tell him “i don’t know about you.. but i’m eating the cows”

@evelyns_pet_zebra
Ok. I’ll be clearer. A huge part of arable land is used to make food for cattle. This cattle is raised for food in turn. It takes a huge amount produced food and water to create a single kilogram of meat. Stop raising cattle, and you liberate these resources for human consumption. A ridiculous huge amount of arable land is also used to make ethanol, used as fuel; something that doesn’t help the environment at all and is a technological dead end. There is plenty of land to liberate for direct food production, and there is also land that is still not used at all. Neither for cattle or grain.

(I am not trying to be patronizing. I know it can be interpreted that way.)

If the only land that is used for cattle, is land that cannot be used for other farming, then it’s local. This is not the case globally. It depends on what country and area you speak of. But you are right in that arable land is finite, and that we will run out of new land to farm.

When it comes to water, I understand what you are talking about, and from your perspective I see a point. Pollution is a dreadful thing, and clean water is not a given today in the world. What you are talking about is not a finite resource per se, but destruction of quality; not finite usage. There is a big number of children dying every day in the world due to lack of clean water. But even if water is polluted it is still there, and the water usage doesn’t really affect the rain. It is still replenishable. Rivers drying up is not due to human consumption unless you build a dam. But again, I see your point of view. Water resources in India capitalized so that if you want clean local water, you have to buy a coke, puts another meaning into “Always Coca-Cola.” If you live in Sweden, unlimited clean water is considered normal and buying water on a bottle a something you do cause you like zee bubbly, since tap water is just as good or better.

I don’t think anyone can take away your steak. Not too far into the future though, I think it’s quite likely that meat production will be so expensive that having a t-bone is considered a luxuary.

When it comes to dead horses, I think few people that eat meat even want to go there nowadays. Few people would eat pony meat, and I don’t think it’s because of terrorist vegetarians. It’s a bit like eating cats and dogs in china. Would you object to eating that? Many people do. If you do, you make the same “mistake” as your “air-headed” vegetarians. What should or should not be eaten is a cultural thing. On iceland they eat rotten shark and sheep eyes. The brain matter that make weiss wurst white, deters some people. Though, I am not sure anything would stop your friend from eating his horse himself if he wanted to. But I agree. Meat is meat. In a way I actually think that if you want to eat human meat, go ahead. Meat consumption is not a problem, but meat production is and will become a bigger problem as the demand of meat increases.

If subjects like this one becomes a battle of opinions instead of facts, I see little difference between arguing for a faith and arguing for a life style.

I am not sure why just being a vegetarian would be provocative, but it seems it is. I don’t give a hoot about if you hunt animals. Good for you.

I think you can agree with that there are aspects of hunting as well that is wrong. That natural predators are shot off, like in Alaska, so that people can get out there and hunt for fun is not ethical. That is not exclusive for the US though. People want to do the same in many parts of the world. Sweden too.

I think you also agree that hunting has to be regulated. The destruction of animal populations and habitats in the world like the american bison, many wild animals in Africa with gorillas as an extreme is not ethical either. What is sustainable differs between different parts of the world.

@oratio I agree about the aspects of grazing animals, and here in the Midwest, arable land is used to grow corn and soybeans. Much of that IS used as animal feed. the rest goes to ethanol production, which is a political issue. Politicians are behind that particular fiasco. I know all about ethanol, having studied it, but I will leave that for another post. Animals that are grazed on grass are grazed on land unsuitable for farming, or on crop residue after the harvest, at least around here. A local bison farm grazes their herd on 200 acres too hilly and steep for corn/bean production. Many other animal meat producers do the same.

As for horse meat, the consumption of such is big business in certain European/Asian countries. Personally, I would like to try horse meat, as I have heard it is quite tasty. Whether other people find horse meat palatable is beside the point. Many people do, and those that don’t, well, that’s their prerogative. The point is, the animal activists have cut off a perfectly feasible form of animal disposal simply because they let their emotions get in the way. They imagine animals that are in the prime of life and beloved by children everywhere being slaughtered, when in fact the horses being slaughtered for meat are unwanted animals for various reasons. It reminds me of the Pro-Lifers who want to ban all forms of abortion to save babies, but do not offer a solution as to who will raise all these ‘saved’ children. They don’t want the animals put down, but they offer no alternative, and the animals still suffer. As it stands, the sale of horse meat in the US is illegal. More namby-pamby feel good politics with no foresight of the consequences of people who have no problem eating meat or raising animals. I hear they also eat snake and rat in China. I’ve eaten snake, and squirrels are just rats with good PR, and I’ve eaten plenty of them. Hey, I might try dog or cat someday, it might be an enlightening experience. If people want to judge me for my life choices, let em, but it doesn’t affect my choices. I choose what feels right to me. My life is not a popularity contest. The comment about eating vegetarians was a joke, but I’ve always wondered what human meat tastes like. Now that doesn’t mean I’m going to go out to kill and cook someone, but if there was a way that someone donated themselves to a BBQ, and it was a free will sort of thing, with no legal ramifications, who knows, I might try it.

A lot of the problem with raising meat also stems from the increase in the GNP of China and other developing countries. They are a growing worldwide, and as their income levels rise, people are eating more meat. As certain parts of the world becomes more affluent, more meat is produced for consumption.

A case in point, a local turtle farmer raises turtles by the thousands and sells the meat as his livelihood. A major portion of his sales go directly to Japan. Seems the Japanese have a sweet spot for soft shell turtle. I’ve bought dressed snapping turtle from him a few times. Catching wild turtle is a risky business, given the amount of pollution in local waterways. Farm raised turtle is kept in a clean zone, and has to be inspected by the USDA prior to sale. Turtle meat is darn tasty, and if other people think eating turtle meat is gross, well, no one says they have to eat it. I’ll continue doing so however.

As I said, someone who is a vegetarian isn’t a problem with me, and if I came across as anti-vegetarian, I am sorry. I eat plenty of vegetables myself. I even use a juicer to make healthy drinks and treats. Vegetarians in general aren’t the problem; the problem is the militant animal-rights extremists seeking to infringe upon other people’s life styles because they can’t see harming animals to create sustenance.

There are no easy answers to this and many other problems, but the knee-jerk reactions of banning things that make you uncomfortable without considering the ramifications is unconscionable.

As for hunting in general, we have federal and state programs that mandate safe and fair hunting practices. People that hunt for sport or are poachers are looked down upon by TRUE hunters. There isn’t much call for sport hunting around here, we hunt to eat. If we put a deer head on the wall, you can bet the rest of the animal is in the freezer. Hunting for fun is a small minority, which many people do not understand. They see one aspect of hunting, and assume ALL hunters go out, kill things, and leave it to rot. That is a stereotype; like saying all vegetarians are trying to declare meat illegal and immoral.

Which brings up that POS Michael Vick. I was discussing that with my hunting friends. We think that Michael Vick got off easy. The man is a piece of shit for doing such a fiendish thing to dogs, and I think having him torn apart by rabid dogs would be a better punishment. Just because a person is a hunter, that doesn’t automatically make them heartless and cruel. And the tales of people shooting deer and then leaving them to suffer and die is a legend created by animal activists. It occasionally happens, but the majority of hunters will spend the time to hunt down a wounded animal to put it out of its misery and to harvest the meat. Hunting is a fact of life, and people who anthropomorphize animals are doing a great disservice not only to the animals, but to people as well.

Remember the Grizzly Man who was killed by a bear? He was a nutjob. No one in their right mind tries to befriend wild animals. I support environmental, wild game and land management organizations, but even I am smart enough to figure out that playing footsie with a wild animal is going to get you killed. You can support animals without trying to hug them.

@evelyns_pet_zebra Yup, fair enough. I don’t disagree at all. We must look for a sustainable way of living on this planet while preserving the environment and the animal diversity. That’s what matter most IMO. Animal cruelty is another question that is a difficult issue in some aspects. Should we test medicine on animals that suffers from it; something that might save or help humans?

I might consider donating 7 pounds of my body to you. You are not alone, there is a huge potential market for human flesh. I have a friend that would love to try it as well.

By the way. I never understood if Evelyn was a huge black woman or an actual zebra.

i think, in moderation, it’s not bad. as long as you don’t eat all meat, every meal, ten meals a day. some people sicken me with their eating habits. but to each is own and that’s their problem. they’ll die of a heart attack soon and it won’t be a big deal. i think humans are meant to eat some meat but not a ton. personally, i may go insane with burgers and bacon. i agree that animals do have feelings but it’s not bad for a jungle animal to kill another animal…why is it acceptable for them and not us. if you want an animal to be your friend, then buy a pet. but don’t sit and tell me i’m doing wrong. i wouldn’t begin to explain shit if someone asked me to defend my eating habits. i have nothing against vegetarians or people who defend animal rights but i think defending animal rights should include excessive fur coats and abuse.

i think another fine point as to why i eat meat is the fact that i don’t want to turn into a whiny prat.

@Dr_C Tell your friend that if cow flatulence is the only factor he considers a threat to our environment, he needs to get out of the house a little more. Sheesh.

@eponymoushipster FTW. Again.

I have a good friend who is a vegan. She cooks dinner for me and the bf all the time and I enjoy it. She is open about her life choice, but guess what, she doesn’t shove it down everyone’s throat and belittle them for their choice to eat meat. Ah, if only all vegetarians/vegans were that wise.

@essieness – Cheers to your friend.

@essieness your friend seems awesome… but the real question is… WHAT IS SHE DOING ABOUT COW FLATULENCE?

@eponymoushipster Oh? But eating meat make you insult people?

@Dr_C I guess she’s contributing to the problem by bringing home leftover steaks to her dogs who then re-flatulate the cow flatulence.

@oratio no, but the proof is in the pudding. if you’re insulted, it must have hit a nerve.

@Dr_C let’s stick tubes up the cows’ butts and bottle that gas. We could grill the very cow on it’s own gas! synergy!

@eponymoushipster Well, I am a vegetarian, so I must be a whiny prat.

@oratio you keep proving my point. it’s like teaching a man to fish (gasp!), it keeps on giving.

@eponymoushipster there’s actually companies that are harvesting the cow flatuence (mostly methane) for fuel consumption…. so it could happen.. “cow fart grill” seems like a good selling point.
And (not refering to @oratio ) eating meat doesn’t make me insult people…. militant vegetarians and other people who try to shove their beliefs and “morality” down your throat make me insult people.

@eponymoushipster Thats nice.

@Dr_C well said on part B of your response – i think i’d like @essieness‘s friend. not a pushy mope.

As for the name “Cow Fart Grill” i just copyrighted it, and grabbed the domain name, so watch yourself!

@oratio Being a vegetarian does not automatically make you a whiny prat. Being a holier-than-thou, whiny vegetarian makes you a whiny prat.

I think the general consensus here is nobody cares why you do or don’t eat meat. Just shut the f**k up and eat it or don’t eat it. Your morals are your morals and it’s not your job to “save” the people who feel differently than you. Vegetarian extremists are no worse than over-proselytizing, Bible-thumping Christians trying to shove their religion down your throat.

Edit: I did not mean to imply that @oratio is a whiny prat, just the whiny vegetarians in general.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ FTW

@essieness It’s just eponymoushipster that thinks it’s cool to insult people with blanket statements.

HEY NOW! we’re talking about meat and vegetables! how dare you guys bring blankets into this?

time to settle down guys

@oratio maybe i had someone else in mind. what makes you such a special, beautiful flower?

@eponymoushipster Nothing. For the most, I think you are a quite decent dude, with surprising insight in questions I never thought you even considered. That statement was a bit derogatory, but I am not looking to duke it out with you here.

Happy Midsummer to you! Though, the sun always shine in philadelphia, anyway.

Oh gawd PETA at work. And fish aren’t fish, they’re sea kittens!!!!!!!!

Oh, and by the way, will this only apply to western civilisations with plenty of access to Whole Foods Inc. Tofu, or will the other half of the planet, yeah, the starving ones you know, have to get their proteins from the vegan store too?

This discussion is ridiculous.

Kitty that smells like tuna? @eponymoushipster is going to be all over this one…

@Dr_C too.many.jokes. <head explodes>

I want some Soylent Green now

For every last person on this thread. i have conducted extensive scientific research over the life of this thread and have come to the conclusion that everyone should watch this for perspective on the issue.

Thank me later ;)

I think this guy has been following this thread…

For every animal you don’t eat, I’ll eat two.

@Poser i do that now.

Anyone have a recipe for beef heart and tongue? Seriously. We need to make room in the frizzer for the Longhorn.

@jonsblond mix it together with beef broth in a blender and make a slurry. Add chunks of lamb and pour over potatoes.

@eponymoushipster No bacon?

@jonsblond well, that’s a given as a side dish.

also: giblet shakes. don’t knock it til you try it.

oh, did i mention there’s a place here in Philly that serves Turducken burgers? uhm, yeah, there is. who’s in?

@jonsblond

The crock pot is the answer to all of the above. Some carrots, peas, corn, and potatoes and you’ll have a delicious meal.

I would also recommend frying the heart like a steak. Cut it vertically and sear shut. Yummy!

@eponymoushipster Me?

@boots Have you tried it before? It sounds like it would be good in a stew.

@jonsblond anyone. yet another reason to have Fluther Meetup in Philly – Turducken Burgers!!

@jonsblond Grandparents cooked like that. I’ve ate squirrel, and raccoon in similar fashions.

I’m from a family that eats what it kills and doesn’t kill otherwise.

There’s a question. How do vegetarians feel about the native american practices of long ago?

@Bri_L i would think they would be againts getting small-pox from europeans and dying… or getting shoved into small patches of useless land and having them called “reservations”.. but you never know…. not eating meat seems masochistic to me so maybe they would like the reservations?

@Dr_C – I just watched a PBS special called We Shall Remain. Wholly shit we were pricks.

They treated both the earth and the animals with respect. They lived, unlike us, in harmony with nature and their surroundings not depleting it’s vegetation or it’s animals. So should they have been vegetarians.

I wonder if all the militant vegetarians would squash a spider they found in their bed. Let’s make it a black widow, just for fun.

@Poser i think they might squash it.. but will they eat it?

To be honest, this thead is the perfect example of the downfall of Fluther. It’s a bunch ganging up on one person for the most of it. Then eventually, it’s a group of those that agree with each other spouting redundancy.

But if they squash it, especially if they don’t eat it, then aren’t they being more than a bit hypocritical? An innocent being died, unnecessarily.

For that matter, do these vegists wear leather shoes? Belts? Can they be sure that the ink that died their clothing didn’t come from a squid?

@boots YAY MEAT! d’oh

@eponymoushipster

”NERDS!!!!!”
…Ogre

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gangbang gangbang doobidoo…...

majority opinion isn’t always ganging up on someone, especially if the minority opinion is presented in a confrontational manner….

@Poser
Yes I would kill a spider, I don’t think you understand why I don’t want to kill animals. Its the same feelings that you don’t want to be killed, not just because we are taking a way a life.

@joooon—I guess I don’t understand why you’re militantly against meat then. Several meat-eaters have conceded that the ways meat animals are kept and slaughtered are undesirable.

Killing a cow for food is less wasteful than killing a spider just because it’s a spider.

Once in bootcamp, we were cleaning up our barracks and someone came across a harmless spider. I moved to pick it up and take it outside when someone stepped on it. I asked them why the killed it and they looked at me in a confused manner and said, “Because it’s a spider.” That always struck me as a bit pointless. Does a spider deserve to die just because it’s a spider?

@Poser
I better make my stance clear.
I don’t want any vertebrates to be killed, killing some non-vertebrates isn’t to much different but I would end up living my life not putting bleach down the toilet because I would have killed germs. The reason I don’t want vertebrates to be killed is the same reasons I don’t want to be killed and why I think it’s wrong to kill humans (some of the reasons)
Animals with less self awareness, intelligences, emotions have less rights in my eyes.

Shouldn’t add this but I will: Spiders are easy to kill and I’m scared of them, 95% of the time I would put them out the window but I would kill one because it’s a lot easier to do.

1. How do you know all vertibrates are self-aware? There are some people that I’m unsure of.

2. How do you know that invertibrates aren’t self-aware?
Edit: vertebrates

3. Why does self-awareness matter?

SkyNet became self-aware on August 29, 1997 at 2:14am, Eastern time.

and we all know what happened after that

@Poser
I can’t really know if all vertebrates are self-aware and the same for your other question, I will admit there isn’t any clear line, it’s like when it ok to have a abortion.

Not just self-awareness but all the reasons why we wouldn’t want to be killed.

@joooon You said, “Animals with less self awareness, intelligences, emotions have less rights in my eyes.”

I just don’t see how that is a valid argument. Shouldn’t you view all life as equal? It seems like a cop out.

@essieness
Would you put germs in your toilet on a par with a human or if you like a cat or dog?
All life isn’t equal, humans have more rights in my eyes and I would hope people would agree.

@joooon If it’s so vague, how can you criticize people for coming to different conclusions than you, especially if they are being more consistent than you are?

@Poser
“more consistent” In what way?
I have to draw these seemly random lines because it would be almost impossible to live my life without killing any bug or insect.
There are many laws that are not clear cut it doesn’t mean we disregard them because of that.

I very consistently yell MEEEEAAAAAAT!

@TaoSan what you do at the Greasy Pole on Tuesdays is your business, dude

@joooon Your argument is very thin. The germs in my toilet are unicellular microorganisms. They don’t even have brains. But thanks for playing. I’m just saying that if you’re going to take the militant vegetarian stance, you need to think a little more about that stance. The arguments you’re presenting are basically tailored to suit your needs. You’re picking and choosing what constitutes a “right to life”. You should just stick with, “I don’t eat meat because I don’t want to” because clearly you haven’t thought deeply enough, or researched the subject enough, to have an educated stance. You’re babbling like an idiot at this point.

@essieness
Could you stop with ad hominems and make a point?

@eponymoushipster

Ey, that MEAT routine has the highest tip return of ‘em all!!!!! Easy tiger!

@joooon My point is this: nobody gives a fuck why you don’t want to eat meat. So get off your high horse and leave the meat eaters alone.

@essieness

Amen Sistah!

@essieness
Don’t get moody at me.
I’ll use your response next time it comes to justifying murder. “nobody gives a fuck why…...and leave the ________ alone”

@joooon Oh I’m not moody. The ridiculousness of this thread annoys me yet I can’t stop following it…

Go eat a burger. Maybe you’ll start thinking a little more clearly.

Trust me, that cute cuddly look in those big huge cow baby eyes is faaaaaaar from meaning: “Can’t we be friends?” That’s Disney propaganda….

@TaoSan
Look I like the taste of meat to, it’s good for us, the reason I’m so strong is because I think it’s immoral not just a difference of opinion.

@joooon I ask you again… If is Immoral to eat meat… Is not immoral to eat Vegetables from fields where Illegal immigrants die?

@El_Perseguidor Now that is a valid argument.

@joooon a difference of opinion is all it is. You think it’s immoral… the omnivores on the thread disagree… different opinions. Period. The omnivores on the thread are not against vegetarians or vegetarianism… they say eat what you want and be happy… some of the vegetarias on the thread (looking right at you on this one) INSIST on forcing their opinion on the rest of us… FINE… you think killing animals for food is wrong…. we got that 150 comments ago… we don’t agree and no ammount of rhetoric is going to chage it… you can’t force anyone to agree with you.

So just go listen to meat is murder and respect the fact that other people have as much a right to an opinion as you do… we have a right to disagree.

damn i need a burger now

@El_Perseguidor
I have nothing to do with Illegal immigrants dying

@joooon

May I, in all humility, suggest to direct your energy towards improving the “life quality” and treatment of animals we’ll eat?

I see where you’re coming from, and believe it or not, I somewhat agree. But, BUT, attacking/critizising the consumer of a “food source” that has been around basically since we walk on two legs is kinda wasted energy.

I certainly will give you this, the mass production industry particularly in the US is close to despicable (which is why I pay almost 30 bucks for a pound of Argentinean free-roaming cow whenever I can).

@joooon But I bet you have no problem eating the vegetables they grow.

Edit: Please tell me you do your grocery shopping at Wal-Mart…

@essieness
Why wouldn’t I?

@joooon if you purchase vegetables from a field in which the immigrants die due to poor working conditions then you DO have something to do with their dying…. you continue to pay the company that causes their death… you in essence SPONSOR the bad working conditions.

@Dr_C Exactly

@essieness sometimes when i’m sleep deprived i start to make sense :P

@Dr_C
Is it ok to kill people? Or is it immoral?

I believe that someone who is revising his opinion in the course of a discussion should get his/her word…..it’s not coping out…

@Dr_C
Here’s the trolley paradox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ux9vEqS6BM
this is for the Illegal immigrants dying

@joooon using your logic people have more rights so it’s less right than killing animals… yet you contribute to the death of people by purchasing products that endanger lives in any point of their processing. People are not bred to be killed in tomato fields (cows are bred to die in slaughterhouses).... so there is a HUGE difference.

@joooon It’s obviously immoral to kill people. And if you buy vegetables grown in a field where immigrants die due to bad working conditions, you are contributing to their deaths. Or, killing them, if you want to use your brand of arguing.

@joooon I gonna tell you again… The problem and the immoral is not the people who eats meat, the problem are the companies, the industry that wants more profit, They will kill animals causing suffering and they doesn’t care if people die in the field.

@Dr_C
Yes killing animal is more ok than killing people but still immoral.

@essieness
Watch the video I sent to Dr C

@El_Perseguidor Sadly, it’s all about profit.

Morality vs. BBQ, guess who’ll win? :)

It’s all evil doings of the condiment mafia I say!!!! Ever tried hickory smoke BBQ tofu?!?!?

@joooon the “trolley problem” is old news and not a valid argument. It is a self serving imposed situation with fixed variables that leaves no room for deviation from one of two specific outcomes set forth by the person making the argument. Not only is this setting ground rules in order to support your own argument… it’s not allowing for any real circumstances which can (and likely will) disprove your scenario.

There are A MILLION distinct variables that come into play on the issue and trying to oversimplify by using “The trolley problem” is not only naive.. it’s lazy and self-serving at best.

@Dr_C @joooon And it has nothing to do with vegetarianism.

@Dr_C

Alright Einstein :)

@TaoSan you will bow before the giant brain

@Dr_C

Actually, I had you as the mad philosopher causing all the havoc ;)

@essieness
On paper eating meat and buying vegetables that the people picking them will die look the same, like in the trolly problem.

One way you would be going out of your way to kill a animal, like pushing the fat guy. The other side would be not going out of my may to kill things.

@joooon again with the self serving comments.. do you go out of your way to kill immigrants in order to buy vegetables and not eat meat? do you go out of your way to bankrupt cattle farmers and force their workers into unemploymet so that cows can live long and happy lives?

Of course not… just like we don’t go out of our way to kill cows so we can go to In & Out and have a burger.

to keep it light, if an immigrant works a lot in open fresh air and the beautiful California sun of the fields in Salinas, will he become whole food Soylent Green, as opposed to one dying in a factory?!?

C’mon guys, just keeping it light…..

@Dr_C
Eating meat by default is wrong because your eating it, and not so for the vegetables. How am I mean to know about them?

@joooon no it’s not. That’s your opinion and your morality. There are many many many implications behind the purchase of any product that you are not taking into account that not only niullify your point but the entire conversation.

It boils down to this… you think eating meat is wrong.. FINE… we don’t. Our choice. PERIOD.

Holla.

this thread got funnier, quick.

kudos to @essieness and @Dr_C.

@Dr_C yep.
god that was intense. i’m gonna go eat a pound of bacon now.
i agree with @eponymoushipster WOOT

@Clair scroll up to find my link for bacon salt… yumeh!

@joooon

Define “by default” please? If by default would mean say from birth on, being “omnivore” by default, then there isn’t any morality involved whatsoever, as morality is a product of an individual’s societal environment and upbringing.

@TaoSan very nice! lurve

baconayise anyone?

Bears are carnivorous animals, are they “by default” wrong for eating meat. They are intelligent enough to morn the loss of a cub. They eat both plant and animal so they can choose what they eat.

@Bri_L Bears are on top of Colbert’s Threatdown all the time. Obviously, they’re not rational.~

@eponymoushipster first, what is Colbert’s Threatdown. Love the guy but I don’t have cable. Second, what does the ~ signify at the end of your sentance?

@Bri_L

1) It’s when he lists the biggest threats to America, the world, democracy, etc. it almost always tops out with bears. (comedycentral.com has a bunch of clips online)

2) a ~ on fluther generally indicates tongue-in-cheek or sarcasm. :)
re: the above, i was being sarcastic that bears are rational.

1) that is funny as all get out.

2) good to know. something else that happened whilst I was gone.

This thread just seems to be going in circles to me. At least it’s getting funnier the more it goes around… kinda like a fat kid who ate too much before he got on the merry-go-round.

@Randy and you know what that fat kid ate? A ham sandwich. and it was goooood.

Kinda like this kid?

@Dr_C bingo, but with a more satisfied look on his face.

boobs

@boots ah yes, sweater meat.

@eponymoushipster @boots sometimes referred to as Sweater Monkeys

@Dr_C best.motivational poster.ever.

yet no lurve… hmmmm

@Dr_C too needy, dude. i did it this time, but next time, only if you can prove you shot the poster yourself.

@Dr_C Yes. Quite nice. Thank you.

In addition to essential amino acids I would add slower digestion compared to high-glycemic food.

And… back to civility. Thanks to @mattbrowne
A gentleman who always has the voice of moderation.