General Question

john65pennington's avatar

Obama agrees to send 1,200 NG troops to Mexican border. but, is this enough?

Asked by john65pennington (29182points) May 25th, 2010

President Obama, under pressure, has agreed to send 1,200 National Guard troops to the border of Mexico. but, is this enough? the original request was for 6,000 troops to assist the Border Patrol with drug enforcement. the duties of the guard will be strictly as support and no law enforcement duties. its doubtful that the troops will even be armed. whats wrong with this picture? first, 1,200 troops is just “window dressing” from Obama. second, sending unarmed troops to deal with heavily-armed drug dealers and their cartel is suicide. third, should someone tell the president that most of the drug dealers are illegal immigrants? they are criminals dealing with illegal drugs and illegal weapons. they come in the same package. if the president was truly serious about stopping the illegal drugs coming across our border, don’t you think he would have honored the request for 6,000 National Guard troops, rather than a mere 1,200? i say this, our nation has more than enough Military Police Officers that are trained in drug and weapons trafficking. why not send 3,000 of them to the Mexican border to assist the Border Patrol? any of your comments are appreciated.

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67 Answers

WestRiverrat's avatar

I agree with almost everything you said.

sending unarmed troops to deal with heavily-armed drug dealers and their cartel is suicide

Disagree with this, it is not suicide, it is murder.

If you are not going to send enough properly equipped to do the job, don’t send any.

dpworkin's avatar

Can you demonstrate from a neutral source that he did anything “under pressure”?

Have you any productive ideas? Obama wishes to pursue a solution with a rational path to legality for the current illegals, coupled with a web of interlocking controls to diminish the unregulated infow, but the wingnuts in Congress have already signalled that they will oppose any immigration reform blindly, just as they are getting ready to do with DADT. Too bad the opposition party isn’t patriotic.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Obama doesn’t agree with the ‘solution’ provided previously and I agree with him. So is this ‘enough’? Depends on what you want to do. The issue of illegal immigration and drugs goes beyond a mere border.

john65pennington's avatar

The president’s pressure came from the new law passed in New Mexico. Sen. John McCain pushed this for his home state. both have a legal right to protect the people they represent. the Feds were not making any moves, so the governor of New Mexico did. she is a hero in my book to take the heat and the stand that she did. the pressure came from the public as stated in a CNN news story released today.

Seaofclouds's avatar

I honestly don’t see what good sending any troops to the border is going to do. The people that want to get by will find a way to do it. There needs to be more done than just patrolling the border. Who said it is doubtful that they will be armed? Has anything officially been announced about who is going and if they will be armed? It is possible that the NG that they are sending are MPs.

There needs to be something done that will lead to long term success, not just a short burst of man power.

According to this story, Obama is also requesting $500 million in additional funds for border protection as well. Technically, if the NG are with the border patrol, they wouldn’t need to do that actual arrest, the border patrol could physically handle the arrests while the NG assists in other ways. Bush sent 6000 troops to the borders in 2006 and now we need to do it again. I think that proves that we need a better answer than sending troops.

This article talks a little bit more about what the troops will do.

john65pennington's avatar

Simone, i agree. but, the border is the starting place for most illegal drugs in America.

majorrich's avatar

If the rules of engagement were defined, I am sure there would be scads of civilian volunteers that would come to help secure our southern border. I remember taking fire from across the river when I visited El Paso. We should be allowed to return fire without worrying about prosecution.

dpworkin's avatar

@john65pennington He called that idiotic law a piece of crap, which it is. Are you saying that he then suddenly decided to support it? Citation please, not just senescent ramblings. You know. Facts.

john65pennington's avatar

Dpworkin, i have no solution for the 20–30 million illegals in America. this problem should have been addressed years ago. since it was not, we are now faced with what to do with them. how do you feed and house this many people, if they were arrested and forced to go back across the border? there is no answer. its too late. the president apparently has changed his mind. no ramblings here, read the report for yourself.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington Is it? You can see here that illegal drug smuggling has many tentacles and that to focus random thousands of troops on the border with Mexico is nothing more than an attempt by this governor you call a hero to support her racist agenda.

dpworkin's avatar

Which “report”?

john65pennington's avatar

Simone, like i said before, the governor of New Mexico took an oath to protect the people and property of the state she represents. this is not racial, its criminals invading her state and the Feds are not helping with drug enforcement. if the criminals take over one state, then its another and another, until they finally come to your state and my state and then its no more United States.

dpworkin's avatar

@majorrich Oh, goody. Vigilante justice. Do you propose that seriously? I guess I don’t put it past you considering the other idiocies I’ve seen you espouse.

john65pennington's avatar

Dpworkin, you are just looking for someone to argue with. i will not give you this honor. i have asked a ligitimate question and i accept your answer as your opinion, only.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington People become governors all the time – do you really think her run is relevant when there has been a ‘war on drugs’ for decades? I mean what crap do the Feds give about this random in New Mexico when they’ve dealt with many incarnations of this issue previously and clearly have been unable to end it all (as that’s not possible) because there’s quite the demand (!) for illegal drugs in this country.

john65pennington's avatar

Simone, fortunately i am not one of pursuers of illegal drugs. just the opposite.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@john65pennington Neither am I but you and I are only two people. The facts show otherwise.

majorrich's avatar

@dpworkin Not Vigilante justice, The volunteers would have to abide by the rules set forth in the rules of engagement. Basically I envision rounding up people crossing the border and taking them to areas where they can be processed by Law Enforcement personnel. Probably should embed LEP with each patrol unit.
I do tend to espouse unconventional ideas. 18 years of unconventional warfare can twist a mind. I have no box to think in. much medications

dpworkin's avatar

Ahh, @john65pennington, in other words, you’ve got nothin’. That’s OK, there’s nothing much factual out there to support your point of view.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@john65pennington What do you think we should do? Do you honestly think adding more bodies is going to be enough to suddenly fix this problem? What about the fact that we sent 6000 troops in 2006 and it didn’t really fix the problem then? How will it fix the problem now?

majorrich's avatar

@dpworking It would actually be a regulated militia. Armed for self defense. simply tasked to be a force multiplier for the Law enforcement on the scene.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

ps I’ve recently stumbled on this ,cool.

WestRiverrat's avatar

@Seaofclouds We are past the point of quick fixes. If our immigratin laws would have been enforced consistently, this would not be a problem. Now we have to take drastic measures.

My fix is as follows.

1) Secure the border. None ot the other points will work if this isn’t done first.
2) Prosecute and jail the owners/CEO’s of firms that hire illegals.
3) Return the illegals to the country of origin.
4) Minimal government assistance to anyone in the country illegally. no welfare, no WIC, no health care beyond basic lifesaving. Any assistance should come with a one way ticket home.
5) streamline the guest worker programs. Many of the illegals are here for seasonal jobs. Make it easy for them to cross the border with a job, make the penalties for staying past the work Visa’s expiration severe.
6)Allow for multiple returns for guest workers that follow the rules. No violations of any local, state or federal laws = Give them a fast track to immigration, if they desire.
7) any violation of law by a guest or temporary worker will put them at the end of the immigration line.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WestRiverrat Oh good, I love that we can still use ‘em for labor and such but have them get the fuck out as soon as we’re done underpaying ‘em – nice work.

zenele's avatar

Democracies must defend their borders fom attack; sometimes the terrorism is from within (as recently seen with the terrorist with the green card) and sometimes from outside; in either case it is clear that when the men in uniform are on the defence against them – they must first, and foremost, be able to defend themselves and their buddies properly from attack.

There’s no level playing field and it isn’t a game. It’s a job and a duty.

When the Japs bombed Pearl Harbour, the US didn’t send a “relative sized response” now did it? It nuked the shit out of them.

There were no WOMD in Iraq, but the US is still there, bombing away, years and years later, perhaps rightly so (but that’s another thread).

Afghanistan?

The US must protect its borders. Period.

It must defend against infiltration, not knowing if the group of men in the middle of the dark night have drugs, bombs or just knives and guns on their person; one might be planning a sunny vacance in LA, the other a terrorist attack. One might be “just” a drug smuggler; his cousin an illegal worker. This should not, and cannot interest the men of uniform; they should approach with caution, heasvily armed, and more importantly, heavily defended and protected – against anything.

If you haven’t walked a mile…

WestRiverrat's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir actually, if they were here legally, they would be protected by the same labor laws that are flaunted when illegals take a job and are paid cash under the table.

The employer would have to pay the same for the immigrant labor as they would have to pay for John Doe from South Central.

lillycoyote's avatar

I just don’t think troops are the answer to the problem of illegal immigration. There are social, cultural and most importantly, economic issues on both sides of the border that drive illegal immigration. Soldiers aren’t the answer, it’s not a military problem and therefore doesn’t have a military solution, IMHO.

WestRiverrat's avatar

@lillycoyote I disagree, the primary mission of the DoD is to defend our borders. Most of the countries I have travelled,customs and immigration enforcement is a branch of the armed services.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@zenele Yes, we must defend our borders, but the thing is, just defending our borders isn’t going to stop the problems we are facing. There needs to be more done than just supplying man power at the border. I wish I had a really good idea what that was, but unfortunately I don’t. I just know there needs to be a deeper fix than that.

zenele's avatar

@lillycoyote Surprise, but I agree. While trying to help their economy – but with major problems at home – the US should still defend its borders properly and wisely – think if your son was a border policeman, or NGer.

@sea – well if you don’t have a clue – maybe the powers that be don’t as well. In the meantime…

dpworkin's avatar

@WestRiverrat Have you ever heard of American exceptionalism? Must we behave as badly as the least common denominator of ill governed nations elsewhere?

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WestRiverrat Border patrol is part of the DoD.

lillycoyote's avatar

@everyone. Defending our borders against an armed invasion is quite a different task than defending our borders against people who want come here and work and make a better life for themselves and their children, and contrary to what many people believe that is exactly what the vast majority of illegal immigrants are coming here to do. They are not here sucking the welfare system dry. They are working and doing jobs Americans don’t want to do. Do you have any idea how much your Sunday dinner of a roast chicken, baked potatoes, salad and vegetable would cost if illegal immigrants weren’t working in the chicken processing plants and breaking their backs in the fields and in the mushroom houses? If Americans did those jobs, if they were willing to do those jobs, for the kind of money illegal immigrants do them for you couldn’t afford your food. Just like you couldn’t afford the crap from Walmart if it wasn’t made by Chinese workers making 3 dollars a day.

WestRiverrat's avatar

@Seaofclouds No, the Border Patrol reported to the Commerce department before 9–11. Now it reports to Dept of Homeland Security.

YARNLADY's avatar

@lillycoyote I do not agree that the legal immigrants and the citizens would not do the jobs just a willingly as the illegals.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@WestRiverrat You are correct, sorry. I knew that but I thought the DHS was also connected to the DoD. I just looked it up though and saw that they are not connected, sorry.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@lillycoyote Slightly off topic, but I worked at a chicken processing plant in Delaware and they actually pay decent money to all of their workers. I’m not sure if everyone else working there was legal or not, but I know we all made the same starting out.

lillycoyote's avatar

@YARNLADY Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that one. One of the biggest problems is agricultural work, not only is is hard, back-breaking work, where you are exposed to pesticide, etc. but is it is SEASONAL! One the reasons why slavery was such a big issue for the agricultural south. Americans want full time work, it’s hard to support a family on seasonal work, but that is the nature of agricultural work. One of the many reasons we need people willing to do migrant, seasonal agricultural work. A lot of those people are illegals. Sorry to sound cranky, but once again, do you all know where your food comes from? Before it lands on the shelves of your grocery store?

YARNLADY's avatar

I could give yo a list of thousands of people who would be willing to do the work. The main impediment is the employment laws, not the lack of willing workers.

lillycoyote's avatar

@Seaofclouds You worked in a chicken processing plant in Delaware? That’s where I’m from. Good for you! I’m impressed. Chicken is our middle name here. :) What kind of work did you do in the plant? Maybe I’m totally wrong about this one. Maybe a lot of Americans would be willing to do that kind of work, it’s just seems that if they were willing, they would be doing the work. It’s not the kind of work people are dying to do though, I think.

kevbo's avatar

Here’s a fact. The governor of New Mexico is a man named Bill Richardson.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@lillycoyote I deboned the chickens. It was really gross and I hated it, but I needed a job and they paid well. They had great benefits and we could get great deals on the chicken. :) I worked for Mountaire in Millsboro. I’m from Delaware originally too, and all of my family is still there. There are probably a lot of people that wouldn’t want to do what I did there, but I will never be to proud to take a job to support my family.

Nullo's avatar

My bet is that, like you said, it’s just for show.

lillycoyote's avatar

@Seaofclouds Then you know that very distinctive odor that Southern Delaware can get on a hot day, kind of a combination of the smell of the chicken rendering plants, with a little eau de rotting crabs. Lovely! It’s hard to describe, but you know it:-)

Seaofclouds's avatar

@lillycoyote Yeah, it’s a very distinct smell and one I’ll never forget. I’ll also never forget the smells from the oil refineries in Delaware City.

plethora's avatar

This was posted today by NumbersUSA (numbersusa.com):

Pres. Obama definitely blinked today in the face-off between pro-enforcement and pro-amnesty Americans.

His announcement of sending 1,200 National Guard troops to the border and asking for an extra half-billion dollars for border security shows that he and his advisors are acknowledging that most Americans sided with Arizona Gov. Brewer and against the Obama Administration in regards to the new Arizona enforcement law.

Rosemary Jenks,Director of Government Relations for NumbersUSA put things into perspective:

“Do you understand that we currently have 20,000 Border Patrol, and they aren’t coming close to keeping the borders secure? What is a mere placement of 1,200 National Guard going to do, especially since they can only provide a support function?”

Under current conditions and policies, it would take thousands of National Guard to make a difference.

But if the Administration would change its own internal policies, we probably wouldn’t need any National Guard or extra money.

We could get by with 20,000 Border Patrol if:

The Administration would allow the 20,000 current Border Patrol agents to do their jobs the way the law prescribes. Stop managers from blocking the agents at every turn. And provide leadership that encourages aggressive performance of enforcement duties. This is the fourth Administration in a row that has insisted that the agents do their jobs in figurative handcuffs.

The Administration would spend the border security and immigration enforcement money that already is in the budget for the things intended. What we need is for DHS Chief Napolitano to stop diverting enforcement funds for other uses or ineffective uses. Spend the money on tough enforcement.

If the Administration would throw all its legislative muscle into passing the SAVE Act, which not only would provide beefed up border and interior enforcement but would begin turning off the jobs magnet almost immediately. Without the promise of jobs in this country, the flow of illegal aliens across the border would dry up to a trickle of its current level and make it possible for the current Border Patrol to provide wonderful security for the country.

If the Administration would pass the fence amendment (SA 4177) to the Emergency Supplemental bill as proposed by Sen. DeMint (R-S.C.).

The President’s announcements today are a reflection that White House advisors know just how badly the immigration issue is hurting Obama and the chances for vulnerable Democrats to hold on to their seats this fall.

This has happened in part because of constant constituency protest against the open-borders rhetoric of the Administration. Now, Americans need to let federal leaders know that they will not be silenced by virtually empty public relations gestures.

dpworkin's avatar

@plethora You’re posting someone’s blog opinion as fact?

plethora's avatar

@dpworkin Opinion is the only thing we have on here, dp. Some are better than others and this is a source that I monitor very closely. I don’t expect you to like it ‘cause I haven’t seen much on here that you do like. Feel free to ignore whatever you want.

lillycoyote's avatar

@Seaofclouds I hate to say this but, yes, if you catch it on the right kind of day, Delaware really can smell pretty bad, from stem to stern, in a rather rich variety of ways, considering its size. :-)

Nullo's avatar

@dpworkin Thanks to the phenomenal popularity of post-modernism, ‘fact’ these days usually amounts to “4 out of 5 dentists agree.”
And that’s if you’re lucky. It might be that 3/5 of the dentists actually don’t agree, but the other 2/5 are really loud.

zenele's avatar

@dpworkin said it best: Have you ever heard of American exceptionalism? Must we behave as badly as the least common denominator of ill governed nations elsewhere?

Be proud of yourselves Americans: even in times of (economic) troubles. And hey, the Euro aint so dandy now either, eh?

He who does not, makes no mistakes. And there is no kinder, gentler more professional army in the world.

Cruiser's avatar

As @dpworkin pointed out BO opposed almost any effort to stem illegal immigration and
IMHO, this move has nothing to do with stopping illegal immigration or even drug trafficking and every thing to do with his approval rating which is approaching 40%. Right now he is perceived as sitting on his thumbs concerning the oil spill so this move is a diversionary tactic that will create just enough controversy to take the spotlight off him and this oil spill. People can now safely say “well at least he’s done something”!

john65pennington's avatar

Correction: anywhere you see the word New Mexico, please replace with Arizona. i had New Mexico on my mind at the time of my question. thank you.

john65pennington's avatar

USA Today has a video and report on Obamas decision on their website today.

john65pennington's avatar

plethora, this is the article i was referring to in my question. thanks for posting it for all to see. john

syz's avatar

Hey, john65pennington, here’s something else for you to obsess over: “the Canadians are sneaking into America by the bazillions”, and bring leprosy with them!!

john65pennington's avatar

Syz, i only call it like i see it. do not believe in obsession. sorry.

plethora's avatar

@Syz So were the Canadians sneaking in (ie, committing a crime by doing so) we would arrest them too.

dpworkin's avatar

Maybe, except they be white.

plethora's avatar

@dpworkin White criminals get arrested too

dpworkin's avatar

Arizona didn’t formulate that law to apply to white anything, and the anti-Hispanic agenda becomes much more clear when you examine other recent Arizona legislation concerning ethnic studies and language.

plethora's avatar

@dpworkin zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….have I heard this before?

shilolo's avatar

It’s all because they took our jobs.

majorrich's avatar

When I was down there, the main problem was they would get real drunk and shoot someone, then run back across the border never to be seen again. That was before I knew about the drug highway stuff. There are some really really scary people down there on the border both sides. If I recall, there was a huge amount of tension between Mexican gangs and Black gangs. I didn’t spend a lot of time there, I was on TDY and hung out with some Cops after work.

dealrrr's avatar

stop employers from hiring non-us citizens and the problem is solved. why does our government and majority of our population seem so hell-bent on putting business before life and liberty?

Nullo's avatar

@dealrrr That controversial Arizona law outlines penalties for companies that hire those who are here illegally. License revocation, fines, etc.

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