Social Question

Seaofclouds's avatar

Want to dialog about the debate as it happens? pt 4?

Asked by Seaofclouds (22600 points ) October 22nd, 2012

Part 4, same details that choreplay laid out for the first one.

If you hear anything false, call it. If you feel like something convinced you on something you weren’t sure about, tell us. Avoid slamming the candidate you don’t like.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

88 Answers

bkcunningham's avatar

I don’t like that Obama keeps focusing on his own perception of Romney and his “policies.” I’m glad that Romney called him on that. I want to hear what Obama has to say about his own beliefs and policy. I wish he’d stop play such terrible defense.

PhiNotPi's avatar

My first thought is that this thread should have been called “Annotate the Debate.” It rhymes.

Second, it seems like Obama is currently trying to paint Mitt Romney as a flip-flopper.

bkcunningham's avatar

That is what Obama is trying to do, @PhiNotPi. I just would like to hear some substance and I’d like for them both to stop the campaigning and trying to paint each other as anything. Let’s be mature gentlemen. Please.

wundayatta's avatar

Keep on dreaming, @bkcunningham. It’s not appropriate, anyway. The point is to win votes, not be nice, except insofar as being nice allows you to win votes

PhiNotPi's avatar

I don’t really like the terms “paint” and “flip-flopper,” since they are just political jargon. They don’t really mean much.

bkcunningham's avatar

I really like these questions.

janbb's avatar

I think Obama is trying to call out Romney on his inconsistent positions and statements and I think he is doing a great job. And I sure didn’t feel he was in the first debate.

bkcunningham's avatar

America is stronger now than when he came into office? I don’t buy that.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

I love how Mitt provides so many details. We’ll create all these jobs and balance the budget. They’ll just fall out of his ass.

wundayatta's avatar

We are much stronger. Bush was a disaster. He didn’t understand, nor even believe the foreign service. For him, it was all ideological.

It wasn’t hard to make this country stronger than Bush.

janbb's avatar

Our alliances with other countries are certainly stronger.

bkcunningham's avatar

They were talking economics, @wundayatta. BS if you are going to argue that the US economy is stronger now.

bkcunningham's avatar

Our alliances with other countries are stronger? How so, @janbb?

DigitalBlue's avatar

I’m so over this. I’m sick of hearing both of their voices, honestly.

wundayatta's avatar

Love how Obama finally was able to dismiss Romney’s budget in a few words: the math doesn’t work!

bkcunningham's avatar

Oh, wow. Good questions.

tinyfaery's avatar

I just saw Book of Mormon last night so forgive me, but I can’t even look at Romney without thinking that there is no way someone who has no grasp of reason and reality should even be a candidate. And anyone who believes anything that comes out of his mouth is automatically suspect of being just a big an idiot as he is.

BhacSsylan's avatar

Fact Check:

Romney balanced the Olympic budget only by a multi-million dollar federal bailout.

And Romney was forced by Massachusetts’ constitution to balance the budget (and proposed such cost-saving measures as charging blind people a fee), but even so ” According to news reports from late 2006, the GOP candidate warned incoming Gov. Deval Patrick (D) that the state could face a deficit of between $400 million and $1 billion because of lower-than-projected revenues. ” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/romneys-economic-scorecard-promising-success-comparing-records/2012/08/09/a3275bee-e261-11e1-98e7-89d659f9c106_blog.html

Bellatrix's avatar

As someone in another country, I have not heard one person say they would like to see Romney as the US President. Indeed most people I have spoken to have been horrified at the prospect. Obama comes across as more rational and measured.

bkcunningham's avatar

Are you guys watching the debate?

Bellatrix's avatar

Well I am… half listening rather than watching… while working. I watched the second too while on a plane on the way to Melbourne. We can watch it live. Not sure how many people in Australia would watch it.

DigitalBlue's avatar

Was that a general question for everyone?
If so, yes, I have it on. I’ll be honest and say that I’m not paying much attention, I really do feel burnt out, I feel I’ve heard all that I need to hear from both candidates, I suppose.

BhacSsylan's avatar

I’ve also been a little burned out. I think Obama’s performing well, but Romney’s constant diversions to the economy are annoying the fuck out of me.

bkcunningham's avatar

It was a general question, @DigitalBlue. But I’m happy to know that our Australian friends can watch it live.

PhiNotPi's avatar

I agree that the economy is being brought into this debate (by both parties) more than it should be. This debate should be focusing on foreign policy.

wundayatta's avatar

Romney is a bully. He thinks talk is weakness. He is an absolute idiot.

bkcunningham's avatar

I hate when they talk about the “folks” they know and talked to. It is so phony.

bkcunningham's avatar

Did anyone catch that from Schieffer just now? He was cool, but started to refer to Osama bin Laden as Obama and corrected himself by saying, “Obama’s bin Laden.

El_Cadejo's avatar

Shittttttt totally forgot this was on tonight. I’m going to have to rewatch it later…

Mama_Cakes's avatar

Meh. I’ve heard enough. I’ll watch football instead or play Candy Crush.

bkcunningham's avatar

Obama doesn’t have any new material. He just keeps repeating the same things now that he said in the other two debates.

BhacSsylan's avatar

Oh, like Mitt “let me talk about the economy” isn’t so much worse.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Obama doesn’t have any “new material”
because Obama isn’t a comedian @bkcunningham

bkcunningham's avatar

I’d like to hear them both talk more about our economy, @BhacSsylan. But I do get your point.

BhacSsylan's avatar

I agree. This is a foreign policy debate, and the moderator should have been taken a stronger hold.

Adirondackwannabe's avatar

That cocksucker Romney just said he would have helped the auto industry. He said let them die. Do you really want this lying piece of shit representing you?

BhacSsylan's avatar

Who ever said Solyndra was basic research?

Mama_Cakes's avatar

@Adirondackwannabe Peeps in the “D” love Obama. The Motor City.

wundayatta's avatar

I love Tesla! II want one of those cars! Without Romney, I never would have discovered them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Romney is clueless. Basically, if he was president, he would say “Bomb the shit out of them!” And when his advisors would say “Hold on. We need to think about this…” He’d say “Well fine. Do what you think is best. I have to get ready for a dinner.”

bkcunningham's avatar

Did Obama just say he’s going to reduce the deficit by asking those that can afford to pay more to pay more so we can spend it?

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, he’s suggesting the rich pay in taxes what the rest of us pay @bkcunningham .

El_Cadejo's avatar

LOL I love watching the undecided voters bar on CNN. Obama talks and both male and female bars go up. Romney starts talking and they both flat line or drop below.

wundayatta's avatar

I don’t think much changed.

Bellatrix's avatar

Twitter makes me giggle…

Mitt “I love teachers” Just not the unionised ones. #debate

I HAVE BINDERS OF TEACHERS.

“Let Detroit Go Bankrupt” Mitt Romney Nov.18 2008 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html … In first sentence, Romney said bailout would finish off US automakers

Just thought I would share.

bkcunningham's avatar

That shouldn’t surprise you, @uberbatman, considering it is CNN.

Mama_Cakes's avatar

@bkcunningham And Fox News would be better?

bkcunningham's avatar

@Mama_Cakes, the point is that viewers of CNN are more liberal and supporters of Obama. My comment wasn’t a slam at anyone and wasn’t meant to antagonize anyone. It is just a fact. I don’t understand what your comment means to be honest. Sorry.

Mama_Cakes's avatar

@bkcunningham It’s okay, @bkcunningham, the rest of us do. ;)

(I’m just playing with you..)

El_Cadejo's avatar

@bkcunningham but its undecided voters…. They havent talked to them yet, but after the first debate there were quite a few people from the undecided voters group that said Romney was better… I dont really think the station has much to do with what those undecideds say.

bkcunningham's avatar

Are they watching CNN, @uberbatman?

DigitalBlue's avatar

I’m really surprised that no one has commented on how it felt like Romney was almost whiny about the president “attacking” him. Maybe that really was just my perception, but that stood out to me. I definitely gather that he was trying to put the focus on just how willing he is to work with the Democrats, and I think offset the visible.. hostility… of the last debate, but it seemed a bit much to me. Almost whiny.

bkcunningham's avatar

Thank you @Seaofclouds for attempting to continue and promote a dialog with this thread.

The final thing I will say is Romney’s lapel flag pin was bigger than Obama’s. So there. ~

Mama_Cakes's avatar

I didn’t watch it. Who won in your opinion?

wundayatta's avatar

Obama did a great job. He won.

DigitalBlue's avatar

I don’t know who I think won. I think I’m moving in, though, @Mama_Cakes.

Mama_Cakes's avatar

@DigitalBlue You get a soft leather couch to sleep on and a chubby, snuggly kitty to cuddle with!

Qingu's avatar

Woof! I personally thought Obama did pretty poorly, but I guess I’m in the minority.

I mean he was alright I guess, probably better than the first debate. I would have liked to see some stronger denunciations of Romney’s bullshit a la Debate #2 though.

Romney came across as weirdly passive and afraid to attack. Maybe that’s a poll-tested strategy or something.

wundayatta's avatar

One analyst said that all Romney needed to do to win was to appear like he could handle fp decisions. Appear presidential and knowledgeable. The analyst said he did that.

I don’t think the debate will change anything.

Qingu's avatar

@bkcunningham, you asked how our alliances with other countries are stronger.

• Russia agreed to the largest reduction of nuclear weapons ever.
• Russia, China, and numerous middle eastern countries agreed to sanctions which have succeeded in ruining Iran’s economy.
• A coalition of countries worked with us to take out Qaddafi, and we didn’t even have to put troops on the ground. Russia and China did not stand in the way.

Nothing like this would have happened under Bush.

Did that answer your question, or are you still confused as to how utterly terrible America’s standing in the world was in 2008?

jerv's avatar

@wundayatta I agree. Many of the people who are voting for Romney are the types that would never vote for a Democrat under any conditions in the first place, and there is no changing their minds. Then there are those that believe that the guy we saw in the first debate is the real Romney; those who lived in/near MA when he was in office know better, but that is only a small section of the voting populace.

Meanwhile most of the people who have functional bullshit detectors or knowledge of what sort of governor Romney really was are going with Obama; there is no chance of them voting for a bullshit artist with a bad record.

Then there are those few who are unaware of Romney’s record, feel he may be truthful, and yet do not believe that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim. Those swing voters are more likely to have their views changed on a whim than by any debate.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

filmfann's avatar

Anyone else hear Bob Schaeffer refer to Obama Bin Laden?

wundayatta's avatar

Yes. I wondered if he was going to correct himself.

filmfann's avatar

When Republicans change positions, it’s called Flexibility. When Democrats do it, they are Flip-Floppers.

rojo's avatar

It could just be me but Romney came across as a “shoot first, then shoot second as well” type of cowboy who was pretending at being a pacifist. But the talking heads at CNN were all gaga over his moderate stance. Maybe I was watching a different debate.

rojo's avatar

@filmfann the republicans have always been better than the dems at putting lipstick on a pig. Remember the “Blue Sky Initiative” or the “Patriot Act”?

rojo's avatar

@BhacSsylan Why did the CNN fact check not show what you provided here I wonder? And, I bet I do not hear anything about it next week either.

rojo's avatar

If Obama had any smarts he would just take the stuff from“The Daily Show” and use it in his campaign ads. They have a knack for showing the right as it really is. The one this evening on “Bullshit Mountain” would even have tea-partiers blushing if you could get them to view it.

Judi's avatar

I wish I would have found this thread during the debate. Did Romney’s sweat bother anyone else?

SpatzieLover's avatar

Yes @Judi, as did his false smiles. I, too, wish I’d known about this thread pre-debate.

ucme's avatar

Zzzzzz…......i’d rather watch these guys debate.

rojo's avatar

I almost choked when I heard the phrase “We can’t kill our way out of this mess” coming from the lips of the Romney. The left has been saying this for years!

How can he believe this and still be their candidate? Is this not heresy?

Oh wait…........... I get it now.

janbb's avatar

@rojo Hypocrisy is what it is. Who knows what the man really believes in?

Qingu's avatar

I still don’t understand why Obama “lost” the first debate to the extent that he did.

I get that Romney won on optics, and Obama should have talked faster and with less um’s and stuff. But Obama didn’t make any stupid mistakes. His biggest problem was that he didn’t rebut Romney’s points.

I think two things happened in the first debate:

• Romney successfully pivoted to the center and had a strong performance, so it served as a rallying cry for Republicans.

• Obama’s non-aggressive performance pissed of Democrats, who then went on to agree with Republicans that Obama “lost,” leading to this artificial consensus that got amplified by the media.

It’s notable that when Romney “lost” this debate and the last one, and when Ryan lost the VP debate, it wasn’t on style, it wasn’t because they didn’t give red meat to the base; they lost on substance.

wundayatta's avatar

No, @Qingu, they lost on style, too. Obama successfully had the last word several times last night. He looked more presidential. Romney looked like he didn’t know what he was doing. He made some ineffectual defenses against Obama’s attacks, saying Obama was attacking him, not policy, when in fact Obama was attacking policy.

I’m a little mystified as to why you don’t see how Romney won the first debate. Nor the magnitude with which he won it. It was clear to most of the public that was the case, and the polls changed rapidly as a result. It’s as if people were looking for some excuse, any excuse to really consider Romney.

The damage has been stopped, and it looks like Obama is going to win, anyway. I expect to see the polls moving back in Obama’s direction now. FWIW, this is the consensus of the political scientists here. But it’s going to be very close.

If Romney wins the vote, but Obama wins the electoral college, there was some speculation that this might be what it takes to get rid of the electoral college. Mostly we’ve seen the Republicans as being advantaged by the electoral college, but that may not always be the case.

Qingu's avatar

@wundayatta, I’m mystified because Obama did not really seem that bad in the first debate to me. He didn’t say anything stupid. He talked slow, and he was polite. He was boring. That’s it.

I mean I guess what I’m mystified about is the American public’s willingness to say someone won a debate purely on style. They might as well just watch these things with the sound off. I’m sure many of them do!

But beyond that, I question whether Romney’s bounce actually comes entirely from the debate or from other factors. The race is now back to where it has been for most of the campaign. Maybe the “bounce” was mostly just a reversion to the mean; when GOP voters woke up and realized that they have to support their candidate.

wundayatta's avatar

It could be a reversion to the mean. Hopefully we’ll get more clarity on that later on.

I do think style matters, and it isn’t just physical, but how they sound an cast their words, so turning the sound off won’t help. Especially on radio! ;-)

But I think that style matters because a lot of people don’t understand the issues, really. It sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to them. I heard a number of interviews with watchers last night where the watchers said they heard nothing new. It was like the way Charlie Brown’s teacher sounds in the cartoons. They were referring to the discussion about economics, but that meant they picked up on one quarter of the conversation and infected the rest of the debate with that impression.

It’s very much style. They are looking for someone who looks strong; who advocates for himself (and by extension, the country); who is a fighter. They want someone smart. Presidential. I hate to say it, but for many people style is more important that substance.

However, let’s not look past our animal nature. We are creatures that rely on impressions. We don’t have time for in-depth analysis most of the time. We go on our instincts. Shit, man! I’m a smart guy, and I do that, too. The thing is, I’m aware of it, and maybe I can counteract it a bit. But I also value the messages my animal side gives me because it means I can understand what is going on here. I can see it.

I believe a very large portion of the electorate is strongly impacted by stylistic things. These are stand-ins for real analysis, and most people hate spending time on politics because the ads make them sick, and because it goes on for too long.

Obama appeared weak and sick and slow and stupid. I don’t care what you know about the guy—that had to worry just about everyone but you. It worried me. I feel better now, but yeah, this is a very close election. It would be nice if Obama gained some positive separation between him and Romney over the next two weeks, and I think there could be some of that. I’m expecting some. But it’s still damn close, and the only thing saving our bacon is his lead in some of the swing states.

PS.
Did anyone hear Scheiffer say “Obama bin Laden?”

Qingu's avatar

I agree with you, @wundayatta, I just wish our voting populace behaved less like goddamn baboons in a dominance hierarchy.

I did not hear Scheiffer say that but I believe I was peeing at the time.

wundayatta's avatar

@Qingu Nice wish. But we are goddamned baboons. So we gotta deal with it. Obama shoulda known that.

janbb's avatar

I read afterword that he said it and then sorta changed it to “Obama’s Bin Laden.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

Romney has no idea what he plans to do. If he wins he’s just gonna go in there and…wait to be told what to do. By the Koch brothers. He’s another Clinton, only worse.

Qingu's avatar

I do think Romney succeeded last night in coming across as a moderate reluctant warrior (even if it meant parroting Obama’s entire foreign policy). One of the scariest things about Romney is who his foreign policy advisors are—neocon geniuses like John Bolton and Dan Senor who were too extreme for the Bush administration.

I guess they were victims of Romney’s etch-a-sketch, too, along with pretty much every policy Romney has proposed before the first debate.

wundayatta's avatar

I hope we never find out, but which is the real Romney? Moderate or radical?

filmfann's avatar

Another thing that bothered me was Romney’s constant licking of his lips. It was getting to the point of vile.

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther