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theodiskaz's avatar

If you don't believe there is a God, Do you wish there were one?

Asked by theodiskaz (546 points ) January 30th, 2013

Are you glad there ostensibly is not? Additionally, if you came upon incontrovertible (to your mind) proof of the existence of the God of the Bible, or any others you have heard of, what would be your first reaction? Second? Third?

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99 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

1. No.
2. I would try to find a way to destroy the Biblical God, for he is evil.

Blackberry's avatar

There’s not really a way to imagine what the god would be like. Where would it be located? What would it be made out of?

Out of all the possible proofs, a book definitely wouldn’t be one. It would take breaking the laws of physics for me to believe lol.

Mariah's avatar

Especially when people die I wish it were true that they were experiencing some wonderful afterlife. I definitely find myself wishing that my life were guided by a benevolent being. I would fear the future much less if I believed it was all part of a plan instead of being up to chance.

I do not wish that the Christian god existed because I think no afterlife is better than the existence of hell, and a lot of what is taught in the Bible is absolutely cringe-worthy.

woodcutter's avatar

How would we know what we saw was a god if it was right in front of us? Is is said that space travelers with unimaginable technology confused ancient mankind into thinking they were gods. Would the same thing happen again?

Rarebear's avatar

Several questions in one:
Do you wish there were one? No.
Are you glad there ostensibly is not? Yes

if you came upon incontrovertible (to your mind) proof of the existence of the God of the Bible, or any others you have heard of, what would be your first reaction? Scientific curiosity

Second? Anger,

Third? Apathy.

theodiskaz's avatar

@Blackberry. Use your imagination. Be creative. And, which law(s) of physics do you have in mind? Just a couple? Or would any one of them be sufficient?

cookieman's avatar

No, I do not wish there were a god – however, I’d be pleasantly surprised if the stereotypical, white-puffy cloud, pearly-gated heaven turned out to be real.

But I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

tinyfaery's avatar

Meh. I haven’t needed a god yet. I’m ambivalent.

theodiskaz's avatar

@tinyfaery. Can you imagine a situation in which you WOULD need one?

marinelife's avatar

Yes. It would make life easier.

theodiskaz's avatar

For those of you do not wish there were a god, or find it satisfactory or are glad that there is none, why is that? Or am I asking a question too personal, here?

Eggie's avatar

There is a God!

theodiskaz's avatar

I realize I am trying to provoke a good deal of introspection and imagination, here. I have found both of these qualities useful in understanding myself, the world, and other people. I do not intend to press or make anyone uncomfortable.

Eggie's avatar

Dont worry about that

woodcutter's avatar

If this deity was a helpful one it would be welcomed by me. Because we could sure use the help. No need to wipe a town off the map and all that rot.

theodiskaz's avatar

Thanks, @eggie. I’m new, and I’m still not really sure what goes, here. I put a few of the things most important things to me in “My Story”, and therefore expect (hope) I will be challenged. Actually, though, that has not really happened. Gotta get more provocative, I guess:)

mazingerz88's avatar

Yes. As long as he or she or it is wiling enough to be my bitch. : )

Seriously, I wish there is one. Or more than one. A million even. Or a billion. One for each human being who deserves to have a kind God who does not use his creation as playthings, makes them wonder whether he exists or not and uses faith as soul currency for something that sounds more BS than real. Salvation.

theodiskaz's avatar

What would you need a god to be, to want there to be one? Except for @mazingerz88 , who has already answered:)

glacial's avatar

Good grief, no. Having freedom of thought and word and deed… why would we give it up to be dominated by some being that has infinite power over us? I can’t imagine anything more nightmarish.

DominicX's avatar

Depends on what this god would be like. Do I wish there was a deity for whom the punishment for not believing in it is burning for all eternity? Not really. Don’t see why anyone would want that.

tinyfaery's avatar

No I can’t. I’ve been through a lot of tough shit in my life and have yet to need a god to do anything.

I guess, sometimes, I’d like a short cut to thinking, but that only lasts a minute or so.

wundayatta's avatar

Nope.

If evidence of a god? Well, that would mean a whole lot of science was wrong. I expect we’d all be in a tizzy, for what we thought were the laws of science would be made a shambles of.

bookish1's avatar

I believe in god, but I am not a monotheist.
But I do sometimes wish that heaven existed. But then again, Graham Chapman and Kurt Cobain would probably be partying in hell, anyway.

Yeahright's avatar

•Do you wish there were one?
Yes. It would answer a lot of questions. Why are we here? What’s the purpose of life? It would help solve the problems of our planet.
•Are you glad there ostensibly is not?
No. What’s there to be glad about? It is sad to know that we are totally on our own.
•If you came upon incontrovertible proof of the existence of the God…what would be your
•First reaction: I’d confront him with a bunch of questions.
•Second: So now that you have come out of hiding. Can you help fix the mess or are you going to continue turning your back on us?
•Third: probably relief that he is finally taking charge of what he created. But still feel resentment. After all , you can’t create something, take off for a zellion years, and then show up as though nothing had happened.

Edit: Arghhh! I got everything wrong. Question is if I had proof of his existence, not that I get to see him I’d be really mad at him and would not have respect for him for in my eyes he’d be responsible of all the bad things in this world. I would not be happy that he’s let the problems of the world get so far.

njnyjobs's avatar

Long but interesting. . . not my own writing but absolutely thought-provoking…

Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ? Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?

Student : Absolutely, sir.

Professor : Is GOD good ?

Student : Sure.

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

Student : Yes.

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent.)

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Is satan good ?

Student : No.

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

Student : From … GOD …

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Professor: So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer.)

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer.)

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

Student : No, sir.

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

Student : No , sir.

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Professor: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Professor: Yes.

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

muppetish's avatar

I have never wished that there were a god, but I have wished terribly to know that there is something after this life, especially after losing loved ones.

glacial's avatar

@njnyjobs Mmmkay, I guess I should follow with this response again. At least you removed the Einstein bit this time.

njnyjobs's avatar

@glacial yeah, that Einstein bit was undocumented…however, the idea expressed is certainly thought-provoking, wouldn’t you say?

burntbonez's avatar

No, I don’t really want there to be a god. What I really want is a dog.

njnyjobs's avatar

@burntbonez go visit your local animal shelter, adopt one and make a difference

glacial's avatar

@njnyjobs No, I don’t. Did you read the Snopes article? The common theme in these fictional pieces is that they portray an inconceivably stupid “professor” being shown up by a clever person of faith. In other words, the Christians who tell these stories make someone else look bad so that they can feel good about themselves. Not a very “Christian” attitude, is it? In that sense, perhaps it is indeed thought-provoking.

Sunny2's avatar

The only time I ever wished there was a God and a Heaven is when I was watching a 6 year old child die.

Michael_Huntington's avatar

No. I shall leave you with a parable:
An atheist, liberal communist ACLU lawyer professor was teaching a class on Karl Marx.

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

”How old is this rock, professor?”

The arrogant professor smirked and smugly replied “4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now”

The professor was visibly shaken. He dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously try to claw justly earned wealth from the deserving job creators. There is no doubt that at this point our professor, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal professor. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Small Government” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. That flag waves until this day, despite the lack of wind in the classroom. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

Semper Fi.

njnyjobs's avatar

@glacial makeup your mind… You said, No to my question whether you find the piece thought provoking…and finished up your post by saying perhaps indeed. The snopes citation tackles whether Einstein was really the student involved in the discussion, my post here did not included that claim. Nor did it portray anyone as stupid… There is no right or wrong answer here, just folks sharing thoughts, POVs, opinions

Symbeline's avatar

That depends on what said god would be like. If he was all creepy and strict like the Bible god, no thanks.

augustlan's avatar

I could see being happy if a benevolent god existed, and a happy afterlife, too, but I don’t exactly wish there was such a being. Such a benevolent being would have to have just this minute popped into existence for me to be happy about it. Otherwise, the god would not be benevolent, to my mind. If one has existed for all this time, where the hell was he when we needed him?

rooeytoo's avatar

I don’t know, but I often wonder if the absolute naysayers doth protest too much!

Symbeline's avatar

@augustlan He was playing Super Adventure Island back round the truck stop. I seen im!

augustlan's avatar

See, @Symbeline, then I’d be all sorts of pissed off. :p

Symbeline's avatar

well I think it was just some random guy, anyway

ucme's avatar

No I don’t, because i’d be scared to look at the sky & see this massive face looking down on me, probably with an expression of a frustrated grandad.

Symbeline's avatar

@ucme If I ever see a frustrated grandad face lookin’ down at me, Imma be all like, scurry off now horseman, fo’ moar pigeons cum ah crappin’ ah mah yard!

ucme's avatar

@Symbeline Imagine though, a head the size of a small island glaring at you for some perceived wrong-doing, like tossing M&M’s at passers-by for instance…chill heavenly daddy!

Symbeline's avatar

Yeah, and if I had the force to face a god in the eye, I’d say it was its fault for creating my faulty ass. Tell him, think about your shit better next time you create a state of existence lol.

ucme's avatar

Yeah, get out of that one & stay fashionable.

Symbeline's avatar

Don’t believe you can’t, man. :)

ucme's avatar

He’d probably get angry & pour lightning on our soft heads, he’s fickle like that…i’m guessing here, but it’s an educated one at least.

Symbeline's avatar

I don’t got much of an education though. But I am hard headed! :D and so are you :p

ucme's avatar

Woody Woodpecker may fracture his beak on my bonce it’s true.

mattbrowne's avatar

I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.—Albert Camus

Mariah's avatar

^Pascal’s Wager, really?

Seek's avatar

Ugh. @njnyjobs Seriously. One single MRI is all it takes to prove the existence of the teacher’s brain. Or, less neatly, a hammer. That inane bunch of nonsense was tired 15 years ago.

Do I wish there were a god? No. I don’t see the need for one.

Am I glad there isn’t? Meh. We haven’t got one. My feelings about it are irrelevant. But I’m certainly happier living without Biblegod hanging over my head.

If I came across proof? It would have to be incontrovertible to reality, not just my mind. And my reaction would most likely be “Hm. Fancy that. That’s where it was hiding.” and then I’d go about my business.

But the eventual god wouldn’t be Biblegod. Biblegod has a very specific set of rules that cannot exist in the real world. He simply vanishes in a puff of logic.

@mattbrowne and in the assumption of which of the ~2500 human gods are you basing the living of your life?

@Michael_Huntington, I love you.

theodiskaz's avatar

There appears to be a good bit of anger or resentment toward the God which the Bible propounds, tied up with the idea that “if He existed, then He is not good”. Can many here agree with that sentiment?

Seek's avatar

I’m as angry at Biblegod as I am at Lord Voldemort.

Both don’t exist, so anger toward them is pointless. But they are each the villain of their respective fairy-tales.

DominicX's avatar

@mattbrowne @Mariah Pascal’s wager is one of the main reasons I don’t believe in God, and the fact that so many believers fall back on it is disappointing to me. I know there are better arguments than that, but time and time again I meet believers who ultimately boil down their beliefs to being founded upon Pascal’s wager.

thorninmud's avatar

I’ve test-driven that assumption. For pretty much the first half of my life, I lived as if (the biblical) god was a reality. The latter half has been lived under the assumption that there is no such god. From my experience, here’s how these two assumptions play out:

“There is a god”

This works out great for this little being I call “me”. I never have to deal with the prospect of the “me” story coming to an end; it’ll just change venue. I also don’t necessarily have to lose people I love. Meanwhile, I have the ultimate Big Buddy working for me behind the scenes, warding off threats I don’t even know about and loving me more than I can imagine.

Even though it sure looks like humanity is sabotaging its own future, it doesn’t actually matter because god has other plans anyway. My salvation is assured as long as I stay fully on-board with the program. It also happens that most of the stuff that I find repugnant about the world is also on god’s hit list, so I’ll eventually get the satisfaction of seeing the evil get their comeuppance.

This ideological landscape is remarkably free of ambiguity. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong, and god is the only authority on such matters.
_______________

“There is no god”

This throws this little being called “me” into a very precarious position. It’s doomed to vanish someday, so it’s hardly worth investing much effort in advancing its fortunes. The ones I love will also disappear, and there’s no getting around that. These inescapable facts will color my interactions with them, imbuing them with a sense of urgency and value. Nothing at all lasts forever. That’s just the way of things. Accepting this as reality is transformational.

The future of humanity is, in some small part at least, up to us. If things are to get better then we have to make that happen, as daunting as that may seem, so we’d damn well better turn our attention toward what will be best for the generations of beings to come and stop being so self-serving.

Likewise, nothing is going to shield me from hardship and pain; they’re inevitable. All I can do is develop the inner resources to keep from transforming them into suffering. I can also use my own experience of pain and hardship to better understand the experience of all beings, and let that shape my behavior towards them. Hardship thus becomes my teacher rather than my enemy.

I can’t be dead certain about what’s right and wrong, having no external reference for such a judgment. I have to try, in my own imperfect way, to be attentive to the infinite nuances of people and situations, and act more out of compassion than prescription.
_______________

Personally, I find this latter assumption leads to a richer life.

theodiskaz's avatar

I get the impression from some of what I’ve read here that a belief in the existence of God, and I’ll stick with the one in the Bible since He is the one with whom I’m most familiar, would be irrational. Do many here believe that science has proven that God doesn’t, or couldn’t, exist?

Seek's avatar

@theodiskaz If we run with the presumption that words mean things, and the the Bible as written defines Biblegod, Biblegod definitely does not exist.

There is no evidence that any of Biblegod’s works have ever actually occurred: Creation, the Flood, the earth stopping dead in its orbit for three days on a whim, etc. There is no evidence that man is made from dirt instead of evolved from a primate ancestor. There is certainly no evidence that female Homo sapiens is a genetically-altered clone of male Homo sapiens (quite the opposite, if you look at fetal biology). People cannot survive in the digestive system of a fish or whale at X-atmospheres beneath the sea.

Jesus is a-ok in my book, as a literary character. He’s sarcastic, and generally the nice unwashed hippie I’d love to hang out with. Yeah, he stole a horse, but I’ll cut him some slack. There’s little historical evidence that he actually existed as written. None of the gospels were written during his lifetime, or by people who had actually known him. The only non-Biblical text that mentions him was written 70+ years after his death, by someone who hadn’t yet been born by the time Jesus would have been executed. Now, at that time in history there were a large number of “prophets” of all sorts running about, “performing healings”, etc. So one more long-haired Jew wouldn’t have surprised anyone. Certainly not enough to merit the attention of the higher-ups of Roman government. It’s a pretty extreme story, with many parallels in Egyptian, Babylonian, and Greek mythology.

mazingerz88's avatar

@thorninmud Regarding your post. Brilliant.

theodiskaz's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr aside from the reliability of the historical documentation of Jesus’s existence, I guess what I’m getting at is this: Has science proven that miracles CANNOT occur, or only that they have not (yet) been observed (by scientist) TO occur?

Seek's avatar

Science does not prove negatives. It makes hypotheses, performs tests, collects data, and makes inferences.

No data, no conclusion.

However, I’m pretty sure that the definition of “miracle” is an occurrence that defies natural law, and thus cannot occur. I would say that anything currently thought of as “miraculous” is simply waiting for a natural explanation. And since in all of natural history there’s never been a scientific conclusion that came up with a supernatural explanation, I’d say the odds are on my side.

theodiskaz's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr so, for example, an apple falling from a tree would hit the ground according natural law, and it could not happen that that apple would just hover there midway between branch and dirt, unless something or someone intervenes, right? Or, speaking of odds, are you actually saying that it would be extremely improbable that it would just hover there, perhaps not impossible, but unlikely, is that your position?

Mariah's avatar

@theodiskaz “if He existed, then He is not good” – yes this is how I feel. If there is a being out there who has the power to do anything it wants, and absolute shit is still happening to innocent people, that being is not good.

No, science has not proven that a god cannot exist, because science doesn’t prove negatives. If I ask you to prove to me that dragons don’t exist, how would you go about that? You can’t. In this case you have to take the absence of evidence to be the evidence of absence.

Seek's avatar

@theodiskaz I’m going to allow Dawkins to answer this one, because it happens to be a favourite part of one of my favourite books:

‘A miracle is something that happens, but which is exceedingly surprising. If a marble statue of the Virgin Mary suddenly waved its hand at us we should treat it as a miracle, because all our experience and knowledge tells us that marble doesn’t behave like that’

‘In the case of the marble statue, molecules in solid marble are continually jostling against one another in random directions. The jostlings of the different molecules cancel one another out, so that the whole hand of the statue stays still. But if, by sheer coincidence, all the molecules just happened to move in the same direction at the same moment, the hand would move. If they then all reversed direction at the same moment the hand would move back. In this way it is possible for a marble statue to wave at us. It could happen. The odds against such a coincidence are unimaginably great but they are not incalculably great. A physicist colleague has kindly calculated them for me. The number is so large that the entire age of the universe so far is too short a time to write out all the noughts! It is theoretically possible for a cow to jump over the moon with something like the same improbability. The conclusion to this part of the argument is that we can calculate our way into regions of miraculous improbability far greater than we can imagine as plausible’

Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker

rooeytoo's avatar

I still like @zensky’s response to another question but apropos to this one as well, he said he is a “god fearing atheist.”

I am not expecting a car accident but I have insurance.

I try to lead a good and moral life, to treat others as I would like to be treated. I don’t always succeed but I try. It seems if more people would simply do that instead of arguing a subject that will not be decided unerringly until you die, it would be a better world. Teach kids morality and respect, it would end bullying, etc. etc. etc.

theodiskaz's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr OK. In the above example, the waiving statue would be evidence, an effect which begs a cause. If a statue in your home, which you knew to be inanimate, started waiving to you, would you conclude Dawkin’s naturalistic explanation was the likely cause, or would you be willing, on the evidence before you, to consider an “outside the system”, supernatural cause to be at least “on the table”?

glacial's avatar

This is where the difference between atheism and agnosticism breaks down for me. I get that I’m not supposed to deny the possibility of a god without evidence, but you know… at the end of the day, there’s just no fecking way the statue on my table is going to wave at me. Regardless of statistical probability, I’m just going to come out and say I know that.

Seek's avatar

I would not jump to a supernatural cause, because the supernatural cause itself must have an explanation, and would thus be so many times more unlikely still than the extraordinarily high probability of a statue’s molecules choosing to jump about, or a cow leaping over the moon.

Seek's avatar

@glacial The probability is the same as a cow jumping over the moon. It’s not going to happen. But if it does (which it won’t) we can be assured that it probably wasn’t god that did it.

theodiskaz's avatar

@rooeytoo Well, I do these things, too. They are important. But do you, or did he, mean to suggest that @Seek_Kolinahr and I ought not be engaged in this dialogue? If this is not an appropriate forum for such, then I’ve made a mistake.

theodiskaz's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I didn’t ask if you would jump, but consider. I did ask if you would assume Dawkin’s naturalistic cause to be the true one. I’m just trying to get a feel for how much of an open-minded investigator you would be, confronted with evidence such as this. And, if we attribute one of God’s characteristics as being that He Himself is un-caused, but eternal, then we avoid infinite regression, and therefore the supernatural explanation need not be as unlikely as it seems
.

Seek's avatar

@theodiskaz It’s of course a wonderful forum for such things.

Engage away.

Ah, no no no. God doesn’t get special rules. If we posit that everything needs a cause and then use God to explain the cause, we must then explain the cause of God. If you want to claim he is uncaused, you must have evidence to support the lack of cause. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

I consider myself open-minded, but not so open minded my brains are threatening to fall out. If you can make a claim and present some evidence, I will happily look further into it. However, I cannot and do not grant credence to claims of “Well you can’t prove it isn’t…”

theodiskaz's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I don’t mean to push, but I am still interested in where your thinking would go, given the waiving statue, whether you would consider a supernatural cause. Also, I never proposed that since science doesn’t prove God doesn’t exist, He therefore must. No, I just wanted to see if anyone here thinks science has already closed the book on discussions of whether a supernatural being could exist, and it appears that it has not. Also, I don’t believe the cosmological argument is intellectually dishonest. Do you, really? Plato and Aristotle were among the first to posit it and it’s implications, and it is still considered (by some) to be good food for thought today. I guess I claim that there could be a God, outside of and before the universe, and that if He were omnipotent, and in order to avoid infinite regress, He would be a good candidate as “first cause”.

theodiskaz's avatar

Oh, and @Seek_Kolinahr, are you worried about my brains;)?

flutherother's avatar

I am a sceptic. I don’t believe there is a God and I am prepared to accept the Universe as it is. Wishing for a God is to wish for a Care Bear world. I prefer the real world for all its flaws. If I came upon incontrovertible proof of the existence of the God of the bible I would check myself into the nearest psychiatric hospital.

Seek's avatar

Science is never a closed book. Everything is up for review, always. But the new evidence must be sufficient to displace the accepted norm.

If a statue waved at me, I would likely think it was hydraulic or robotic, and not investigate further.

I do not hold a belief in a supernatural deity. Thus, my thought patterns do not include interventions by supernatural deities. I do not see the need for one in order to explain the universe, and I think the gaps that god hides in these days are becoming quite small.

augustlan's avatar

Just to give you fair warning, @theodiskaz, you have stumbled upon a site that has a greater number of atheist members than is usual on the web. Most of us are always willing to talk about this stuff, and engage in friendly debate. :)

Seek's avatar

Emphasis on “friendly”. Some of us think this is fun. And I, at least, have a hard time giving up a discussion.

Pachy's avatar

I believe there is something greater than I, greater than all of us, and greater than anything we will ever understand. I do not believe in one God.

rooeytoo's avatar

@theodiskaz – sure you can discuss ad infinitum, but I never see anyone convert so I wonder why it goes on and on. Course I also wonder why I read (skim) most of it. I guess to see if anyone comes up with anything new, but so it hasn’t happened, it is the same old tired repetitions.

theodiskaz's avatar

@augustlan I appreciate that, and have gotten that same good natured warning from others. Like I told my wife, I’ve turned fifty, survived a heart attack, despise Facebook and don’t know how to blog. But i am so tired of the ignorance, un-examined positions, lack of self-consistancy and boxy thinking I’m surrounded with, that I’m gonna started saying whats on my mind. Honestly, I’m not proselytising, but rather would know what other people think about things I care about. You know, I just don’t feel like I’m growing inside when I hang out with people who hold the same views I do. Try coming out as a socialist at a Baptist church, or telling one’s bong buddies that you really do believe the Bible, every word of it, and you get funny looks and/or lose friends. So here, I’ve laid it all out from the get go, and no one has to interact with me if they don’t want to, and I haven’t disappointed anybody who thought they knew the REAL me. But, yeah, thanks again:)

Seek's avatar

@theodiskaz Aw… I totally understand. I’m a liberal atheist who was once a conservative Pentecostal. My last day in church consisted of me walking in the doors, and everyone turning their face away. And that was just because I had gotten into a fight with my mother, who wasn’t even a member of the church. Their loss, I guess. Bunch of inane, hobbyless windbags.

So, I know how it feels to be the outcast. And if you want to discuss your beliefs until you’re blue in the face, I’ll happily be here as a punching bag. Except I hit back. But only with facts and logic. Since for some reason the JWs have stopped knocking to debate with me, this is my last refuge.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@theodiskaz Same here, Theo. Seems like in my life you have to pick a side, I picked the non-Christian side because I want to live my life with relative freedom and peace, but I believe in God and the Bible for the most part.

Bonging it up does not make a person evil unless someone is breaking a biblical commandment of ‘not judging’...lol Try telling your Fundamental Baptist family members they’re hypocritical asshats for not allowing me to sing “Black Betty” with my little cousin becuase it’s ‘Inappropriate’. I also cuss and drink “too much” wine….hahahaha!

Welcome!

augustlan's avatar

I welcome you, @theodiskaz. :)

theodiskaz's avatar

@KNOWITALL , @Seek_Kolinahr See, we ARE people first, aren’t we? Sometimes, maybe more in common than it seems. Gotta log off. Be back tommorow. ANd I just caught that @augustlan , thank you. God bless. TTFN

mattbrowne's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr, @DominicX – So far, in this thread I was merely quoting Albert Camus. To me personally more than one god makes no sense. But my rather abstract notion of God as the ultimate explanation for our being makes God quite inaccessible to many people. This explains the diversity. And an abstract deist god doesn’t explain purpose and meaning of our being. Religions also offer structure and rituals. They can help us to be mindful. Science clearly shows that the regular practice of mindfulness enhances overall health, psychological well-being and quality of life.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I do. I want to believe I’ll see my Mom and Dad again someday, that I can live on in a healthy, conscious state for ever and ever and watch over my kids.

What I really want to believe in is reincarnation.

But I can’t.

theodiskaz's avatar

Reincarnation is an irrational belief system, Dutchess. If you consider all of it’s implications, you probably wouldn’t really want to believe it any more. Classical reincarnation theories don’t offer you that option, anyway. You probably would like to believe there is an omnipotent, good, and in control supreme being who, counter to appearances, actually does have things well in hand, who loves you deeply, wants what is best for you although maybe not what YOU think is best for you:) and really wants to have a relationship with you and your kids. have you met my friend Jesus?

ragingloli's avatar

Reincarnation is an irrational belief system
LOL

Dutchess_III's avatar

But, I can always make up my own version of reincarnation, one that works for me, one I’m comfortable with, and believe in that!

I haven’t “met” Jesus cause he’s daid, but I was born again in the 1980’s. Was very active in the church for several years. Raised my kids in the church. However, my experiences there ultimately led me to question the beliefs that they tried to convince me of. I quickly learned not to ask certain questions (mainly in the realm of science) because they had no answers and got upset with me for asking. They only wanted you to ask questions about emotions and human feelings, things that they could refer you back the Bible for the “answers.”

But yes, it is all an irrational, illogical belief system, hence my final statement “But I can’t.”

Dutchess_III's avatar

Hm. I read your post again @theodiskaz “You probably would like to believe there is an omnipotent, good, and in control supreme being who, counter to appearances, actually does have things well in hand, who loves you deeply, wants what is best for you although maybe not what YOU think is best for you:) and really wants to have a relationship with you and your kids. have you met my friend Jesus?” Were you being sarcastic? I mean, it could go either way. I just need some clarification again.

theodiskaz's avatar

Not at all, Dutchess. I have what I consider to be a very good relationship with Jesus, and sometimes take the opportunity to try to introduce Him to others.

Dutchess_III's avatar

OK. Thanks.
And you are right. I would like to believe. And I want to believe in reincarnation too. I’m not being sarcastic.

theodiskaz's avatar

Cool beans.

Dutchess_III's avatar

But I can’t.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

I believe there is a God because it’s the only rational explanation.

Without a God life truly has no purpose. What makes humans so special? Does a lion go to heaven? Why do we place special morals on our species but not other and why dont they have the same morals we do. When a human rapes or murders it is objectively wrong and at time it is even wrong even we see other species do it which to me shows we are from a God of love. Any other specie lacks the rationality we do and just murders and rapes, and of course I’m sorry but it seems to me that humans are the only species going to heaven.

ragingloli's avatar

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

I believe there is a God because it’s the only rational explanation.

Without a God life truly has no purpose. Before you go off on me, hear me out because I don’t mean that in layman terms.

Not like we don’t want to get married or have no dreams and so and so forth.

What makes humans so special? Does a lion go to heaven? Why do we place special morals on our own species but not others and why don’t they have the same morals we do? To me rationally that is God.

When a human rapes or murders it is wrong and (there are cases where children even oppose murder because somehow we know it’s wrong which is why we try to impose all these rules which happen to be Gods rules) at the time it isn’t even wrong for other species to commit such an act it is just wrong from our stand point and lions would not survive as vegans but humans can because I do, so we put them in zoos and don’t let kill at all and feed them by throwing dead meat in their cage because then we feel better, rationally it’s not logical buy it also to me shows we are from a God of love which is the Christian God.

Any other species lacks the rationality we do and just murders and rapes, yes some are more intelligent but that is because they do come from God and have a hairs breadth of Him but it is humanity who was made in His image and of course I’m sorry but it seems to me that humans are the only species going to heaven.

So sure we can live without God that is a choice, but it doesn’t seem rational to me, and how do know all of this? Well it’s been from a little help by that little book we call the bible. There have been many debates between highly educated atheists and theists alike, which also tells me that the bible is not just a book that means nothng or they would of refuted it a long time ago, that is just atheist thinking.

Who wrote the bible? That’s for another day! I have to get ready to go.

Have a good day jellies! :)

KaY_Jelly's avatar

^Yikes sorry for the mistakes. I’m on my cellphone, not even near a PC. It’s been giving me
hell. lol it may need an exorcism. :/

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