Why do people try to project human logic or limits onto God?

Why do you assume that he is not bound by logic?

@ragingloli Not the question, maybe a good response but not what I’m looking for sorry play again.

No but seriously I don’t know that he isn’t, I’m just saying how do we know he is and why do so many people seem to feel he has to be or that disproves him somehow?

I mean think about it, if he did create everything from nothing then he put the rules there himself didn’t he?

It is arrogant, so simply put some people are arrogant and think they are the greatest thing god ever made, not that they believe he actually made them.I don’t want to get to into it because I don’t feel like having a fight when things get ugly but…there are no limits and some people find that a joke such as if he can do anything then why cause people to suffer? Well the Bible answers that John 16:33 “You will have suffering in this world.” Most of the suffering is a result of human selfishness, arrogance, etc. “We all sin and fall short of the glory of god.” The reason there is suffering is not because God is evil. But because Eve disobeyed and everyone thereafter sinned. God intended a perfect kingdom, we screwed up.

@bunnyslippers
We are not talking about some made up rules that apply only to humans, we are talking about fundamental rules that apply to existence itself. A=B and A=/=B can not be true at the same time. That is the implied violation when one raises the question about omnipotence, if god can make a rock so heavy he can not lift. If god is omnipotent, he must both be able to make that rock, but he must also be able to lift it. If you however then say that he can do both, then your argument makes no sense.
The same is true about the problem of free will. If free will is true, decisions can not be known beforehand. But if god is omniscient, he does. So logically, free will and omniscience can not both exist at the same time. And yet believers claim that both are true simultaneously. Again a claim and argument that makes no sense, because it contradicts itself.
So you are asserting the existence of an entity whose properties are self-contradictory, when you have no evidence that he 1. exists in the first place, and 2. that if he exists, he even has the properties you assert him to have.

Because any idea of god has its roots in the thoughts of man. People expect people to be logical and capable of reasoning about something they themselves created.

@ragingloli See i like that answer it’s well reasoned, and it even made me smile a bit thinking about it cause it’s exactly what i’m talking about. But it doesn’t change my views even a tiny bit. Thanks for taking me seriously though, I was worried I was going to get swept under the rug and ignored for a minute.

Logic is a good thing. Limiting oneself is a dead end. I say ‘oneself’ because I am of the opinion that neither logic nor logical people are able to limit God. If it is the case that God exists, then none of their disbelief, no matter how logically presented, will be able to undo him: they simply choose to limit themselves. However, if it is the case that God does not exist, can we say that no amount of faith will create Him? Absolutely not. God lives in his praises, says the Bible, and that practice is well within accepted norms as far as the human condition is concerned, for anything we practice or exercise becomes, not only stronger, but more lively.

@bunnyslippers
You see, when talking about omnipotence you only have to options:
1. You argue that ‘omnipotence’ only includes feats that are not logically contradictory.
or
2. You have to argue that a logical contradiction is actually true.
The problem with these two is that:
In the first case you are putting limits on god’s abilities yourself, and
in the second case you must throw all sense and reason out of the window.

Logic is logic and everything in the universe is bound by logic even God. But that the universe should exist isn’t logical. It just is.

@ragingloli I see what you’re saying and agree, my question remains unchanged though. Because option two, while it sounds absurd, is entirely possible if you’re talking about a being that is so far beyond our understanding as to be outside of it entirely.

I know you won’t change your mind and I won’t change mine I’m just pointing out my thought process. I know God is real, I don’t know that he isn’t bound by logic and limitations, but I don’t have as much of a problem as most people seem to assuming it’s possible that he isn’t bound by such things at all.

It’s not just God. We try to project human logic/limits on everything. I think it makes us feel better about what shitheels we can be.

As we were taught in Catholic School (the old Baltimore Catechism) “Man is a creature composed of body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God.” So when ascribing attributes to God, people were taught it is dogma that God appears and thinks in the same manner.

I like how some people are putting real thought into giving me an answer and me and @ragingloli have been having a discussion that while related is actually not what I asked at all, but an argument that grew from it…

man this site is fun

Unless it is something that is really human, @Blondesjon.

Maybe he’s a she, uh huh…oh yeah.

@ucme Was that last part said in the kool aid man voice?

@bunnyslippers No, try Daphne in the first Scooby Doo movie.

@ucme . . . I’ve never agreed with God being a woman since most women I know would never allow war, famine, or children with cancer to occur in a world they created.

@Blondesjon But as they’re so quick to tell us, they excel at multitasking so…

I actually agree with the premise for your question. I myself believes that it would be foolish to think that superior intelligences to us, whether they’re etheric or physical (such as aliens) would be confined to doing/thinking only in regards to what we know.

However, I’ve seen many Christians and Muslims attempt to use that latter point above to their advantage. I think this is faulty reasoning and logic though to use these as evidence in an attempt to prove the authenticity of one’s religious god over another god. There’s a very dangerous slippery slope potential here with that line of reasoning. A religious theist would then have to have to consider that these points may be true for the other thousands of gods/goddesses out there too.

When did I attempt to use it to prove my God is better than anyone else’s? I’m not saying I don’t believe he is, just by being Christian I’m making that claim, but I’m not using the concept that God could be outside logic as the way to do that. But as you are making a general claim here I will let it slide without calling for satisfaction.

And just because I believe my God is the one true God does not mean I’m for oppressing other religious beliefs etc. I just wanted to point this fact out. That would be just as wrong as anyone trying to oppress my beliefs.

@bunnyslippers I never claimed that you’ve personally stated any of those assumptions that I’d made about religionists? Can you show me where I’ve said that please? I’d stated that many religionists themselves tend to do this from my experiences debating them.

@Paradox25 Nope can’t point to it, I apologize, I realized you were generalizing, but I just wanted it clear I wasn’t doing that, at least not now at this moment.

Well, I thought we created God in our own image, after all…

So It should be bound by logic, same as we are, and by the same token It can be as irrational as we are.

I believe “logic” is a made-made concept which, like the concept of time (also man-made), gives us rules and guidelines where none truly exist. I also believe God is a man-made concept. So applying one man-made concept to another doesn’t make much sense to me.

My apologies to Believers, to whom the above must sound blasphemous. While I may not agree with you, I respect your beliefs.

@bunnyslippers I just don’t know why. I suppose people just can’t help but think in the terms they’re used to. It’s hard for people to understand that god, who is basically a magic man with limitless powers, can be paradoxical and internally inconsistent, and that’s just fine.

The infinite being and creator of the universe and reality itself doesn’t bend to mere human conventions and our so-called “rules of logic”.

I don’t think it stems from hubris or arrogance, but more a sort of naivety or lack of imagination, and chauvinism toward “logic”, since everything else we experience typically follows a logical order. But not god!

Thankfully. I don’t have to trouble myself with such problems since I don’t think any god exists anyway.

The issue is simply this: either God can be discussed logically, or He cannot be discussed at all. This is not necessarily to put a limitation on God, but rather to acknowledge that we human beings cannot present anything even resembling a reason for belief if logic is out of the picture. When theists try to get non-theists to believe in some god or another, the very nature of discussion requires them to give reasons of the sort another human being could accept. When non-theists challenge the reasons or explanations presented by theists, they are in fact operating on the terms set by the theists themselves.

To offer an explanation for some passage in a sacred text or an argument for the existence of a particular deity is to presuppose that such things can be rationally presented. So when the explanation or argument is logically flawed, then that explanation or argument is necessarily insufficient. It is surely open to the theist to then declare that the issue is beyond discussion, but that would also be to relinquish any claims they might have against the non-theist. They could not claim that the non-theist is irrational, nor could they insist on subjugating anyone else to their personal religious views. I think you’ll find that if all theists abandoned such pursuits, the discussion would go away rather swiftly.

Because some folk just can’t think outside the box.

@Pachyderm_In_The_Room . . . Sorry man. I have to disagree with your statement concerning logic. Logically 1+1 will always be 2.

log·ic [loj-ik]
noun

1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.

3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn’t much logic in her move.

5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

Not so that logic demands 1+1 always equal 2.

1+3 equals one set of tires.

This is funny. When I was an active Christian I had the same complaints against Christians! They insisted on forcing God into a box that they could understand with their own puny brains. For example, they insisted on Creationism because that was easier for them to grasp than evolution. Evolution took a lot of thought. Creationism didn’t.
There were other examples, but that’s the first one that came to mind.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies . . . Semantics need not apply.

The tesseract cannot exist within our physical reality. But it does exist nonetheless. We can only depict its shadow projected from another dimension.

Science cannot prove it exists any more than science can prove love exists.

@SavoirFaire I like what you said and even agree with it for the most part, but I did want to point out that a key aspect of belief in God in any religion but especially in Christianity, is faith.

Because when it comes right down to it there isn’t a way to prove he exists and my knowing he is real does not translate to being able to tell you why I know he is real because it does in large part rely on that faith. Which is basically illogical but altogether true. sal

Semantics do apply when one considers a God to be semantically based… as told in biblical principles of The Word, or Bhartrihari’s Sphoto Theory. Not so hard a swallow when considering DNA is pure semantics. Life is code.

As well, Philosophy requires semantics to support truth statements.

The world is made of language. Look around you. Everything except rocks and sky have a code which predetermined their existence before they existed. The rocks and sky would be white noise unless we named them.

I thought we were talking about logic.

To me, God would be the ultimate scientist. A master of physics, biology, chemestry, geology, geography….he would be the ultimate in logic.

Certainly we are discussing logic @Blondesjon. It formally arose from philosophy. Logic is the greek Logos. It is the word, speech, account, reason….

It is illogical for a cow to reduce a human to the logic of a cow.

It is illogical for a human to reduce a God to the logic of a human.

Said no cow ever.

I see. Bovinity vs Divinity.

Because god(s) are man made constructs?

Think outside the bun @Neodarwinian!

[mod says] Let’s not get personal, folks.

I don’t think God is about logic; God is about love. There never was logic to love, and I find it amazing that people ignore love and go straight to logic, assuming that they’re going to prove something.

Short answer: Because that’s all there is to apply to God. There’s no third party here…..It’s all humans making stuff up. This is why (and even normal religious people will tell you) it is a faith.

@Blondesjon, no need to apologize. These are your beliefs, and I respect them.

For my own part, I go with what Hamlet says to Horatio:

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

@Pachyderm_In_The_Room . . . I guess the sorry was my way of saying that I respect you period but had to disagree.

Is the fist bump here implied?

Relevant

@CWOTUS . . . I will lie cold in my grave before I ever bump a McPoyle.

@Blondesjon, consider our fists bumped!!!

My main issue with this question is that it is always asked by someone who is more than ready to claim that they actually do comprehend God. In fact, they know god personally, down to the deity’s list of pet peeves and preferred clothing style.

I would just like to point out that atheism and atheists can also be irrational, so it’s fun when we point fingers but ya just because this is a predominately atheist, skeptic, unbeliever, naturalist, agnostic, etc, etc, etc, site then we should assume that not just theists are illogical.

Humans are made in God’s image, and God is good so I would assume His logic is rational, maybe many don’t like it so they choose not to follow Him. God is like a parental figure we are His children and some children want to be disobedient.

It’s just like people think certain scriptures in the bible tell us to beat our children with “rods”, i have heard that from atheists and in fact it used to be my main argument when I myself was an atheist. When in fact that is illogical, and it’s because sometimes people will read what they want and take the words for what they are, and so if it means that to them like it did to me as a young adult then Psalm 23 takes on a whole new meaning…

The Lord the Shepherd of His People

A Psalm of David.

23 The Lord is my shepherd;I shall not want.

2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;He leads me beside the still waters.

3 He restores my soul;He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,I will fear no evil;For You are with me;Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;You anoint my head with oil;My cup runs over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow meAll the days of my life;And I will dwell in the house of the LordForever.

But now that I understand God and the bible better I know what I thought when I was younger is simply untrue.

@KaY_Jelly . . . So you are saying that “Spare the rod. Spoil the child.” does not exist in the bible?

Proverbs 13:24.

@bunnyslippers I’d guess the same reason that people try to project human logic into proof god exists. “We know everything has a cause.” What caused the Big Bang?” We know you can’t get something from nothing.” “Maybe natural laws govern the universe, but don’t all laws have a lawmaker?” Sound familiar?

Right so you are referring to:

13 Do not withhold correction from a child,For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

14 You shall beat him with a rod,And deliver his soul from hell.

My point is that the word “rod” I believe is not referring to the actual physical punishment, logically what would the point of that be?? I believe it is because Jesus actually had a staff He walked around with so the word “rod” is just referring to the fact He holds the power, its symbolic more than anything. I hope that makes sense.

Kay, Proverbs.

He who spareth the rod hateth his son.

Long before gentle Jesus meek and mild.

@KaY_Jelly . . . Yeah, except for the part where it’s not.

@KaY_Jelly Have you read the old testament? I’m fairly certain they are talking about physical punishment. The old testament is brutal, in comparison to some of the things it mentions spanking a child is nothing.

and that assumes they were only talking about spanking, they could have meant even more than that for all I know, I’m not a historian or translator

I realized I sounded like I was picking a fight or something, think I owe you an apology, just saying the old testament is violent and as a christian I do have to acknowledge that

OK. Then I suppose Christians either choose not to beat their kids and go against “God’s word”, assuming the logic of bible is flawed and atheism is right if people want to pick on a group of people first thing is to try to silence them. And I see it out here a lot, my avatar is the latest.

“Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America? Once upon a time such a notion would have been unthinkable, but these days things are changing dramatically. All over the United States, evangelical Christians are being called “extremists” and evangelical Christian organizations are being labeled as “hate groups”. In fact, as I will detail later on in this article, a U.S. Army Reserve training presentation recently specifically identified evangelical Christians as “religious extremists”. This should be extremely chilling for all evangelical Christians out there, because as history has shown us over and over again, when you want to persecute a particular group of people the first step is always to demonize them. And that is exactly what is being done to evangelical Christians today. Just look at how evangelical Christians are being portrayed on television and in the movies. Just look at how much hate is being spewed at Christians on the Internet. The Southern Poverty Law Center and the ACLU, both of which are considered to be among the most prominent “civil rights organizations in the United States, are seemingly obsessed with attacking evangelical Christians. It has become trendy to bash Christians, and that is a very frightening thing. After they have finished demonizing evangelical Christians, what will the next step be?

watch the video above that quote if you’d like.

@bunnyslippers if you believe everything you read in the bible, then Lots wife is litterally turned into a pillar if salt…have you ever heard of something called Etiology? You can’t always believe everything you read in the bible for what it is, they had different language and ways of explaining things. If Jesus healed people and instilled the morals which most of us have today while he was on earth like the fact that many humans are overly sympathetic to suffering it seems pretty illogical that he would allow His followers to beat His children with sticks, especially when we know He is a loving God.

Who is illogical now?

@KaY_Jelly Why do you accuse people who disagree with you of trying to silence you?

@DominicX It’s not me in particular who is being silenced. I’m very opinionated and I speak my mind about my beliefs no matter how irrational or crazy I look, because I think at least on my better days I can make sense sometimes
:-P I know of Christians and people of faith who have been silenced. Same sex is ok, but faith in a religion is called “extreme”, to me there is something wrong with this scale, it should be level.

And I know atheists and homosexuals who have been silenced. It’s not a contest. And considering the evangelicals have a wide following (I’ve read it’s one of the fastest growing Christian movements) and often have political influence, I don’t think we have to worry too much.

The ones who get called “extreme” usually earn it. The American evangelicals who expressed their support for Uganda’s “crackdown” on homosexuality (a.k.a. the “kill the gays” bill) earn their designation of “extreme”. Because that is an extreme view to hold. I don’t know anyone who considers religion in general to be “extreme”. Extremeness has to signify more than that—some degree of control, some degree of desire to force beliefs and values on others, etc.

@KaY_Jelly Jesus did give new teachings, things like turning the other cheek versus the old testament eye for an eye.

I decided I don’t want to argue after all sorry.

@KaY_Jelly Now bemoans the poor, outnumbered and picked on Christians, who are only 73 to 73% of the US Population. Oh, it’s so unfair.

Well I wasn’t making it a contest. Did you watch even some of the video to understand what I was talking about.

I should of elaborated on what I said when I mentioned that “same sex is OK but faith in a religion is called “extreme”. I am just trying to compare 2 very real things like taking the Lord’s prayer out of schools, with the fact that now we allow pride parades. And besides if we silence all religion how are people going to get married lol where do atheists get married???

@bunnyslippers you don’t have to argue with me about it, I’m on your side! ♡

@ETpro And the US holds the authority apparently?

@KaY_Jelly And how can you compare forcing children of different faiths to say a Christian prayer to an optional public event?

@KaY_Jelly Trots out two organizations fighting for equality. They both have membership numbering in the thousands. Christians number in the hundreds of millions. But in @KaY_Jelly‘s warped world, this is an unfair and massive attack on her rights to jam her beliefs down all American’s throats. Sorry, but I am not buying.

I was going to answer but I’m not going to now.

Goodbye.

Of course. Whatever. Gee, @ETpro, you’re not helping me here. I get close to making a breakthrough and then, boom. It’s over. Oh well.

@DominicX You two are welcome to come to whatever rapprochement you wish. I will salute or dissent based on what you agree to. I will not, without a fight, be silenced so others have exclusive access to the microphone

Yeah he seems to do that a lot with me. So I figure as soon as his flaming rhetoric steps in I step out. Sorry.

I had a really good response all done up for you too.

I am tired of being trolled by some people.

I get it people don’t like my beliefs but I am most certainly not trying to jam my beliefs down people’s throats. So the minute anyone thinks I am doing that, the conversations will stop.

I firmly believe in equal rights.

I also have just as much right to post here as anyone else, and also just to note that jamming my posts down throats would be virtually impossible and again another irrational post on someone else’s part, not mine, not this time at least.

So now I’m just letting you know, thanks for the conversation.
If you want to continue in pm that’s fine, but I’m going to bed now.

@KaY_Jelly Have you conveniently forgotten how we got to this point? And what flaming rhetoric. If I am actually flaming you, then the moderators will step in. Perhaps the same should hold true when people falsely claim they are being flamed in order to silence others.

@KaY_Jelly Fair enough. :)

@ETpro Eh, I’ve seen it over and over again, and seriously, it’s only moderated if you’re on the “wrong” side. Been there done that. But then again, I’m naïve.

@snowberry “I don’t think God is about logic; God is about love.” Could you clarify please? I never viewed God as a being who made decisions strictly on emotion. That’s a little scary to me.

Everyone has equal access to the microphone. It’s what you say and how you say it is when the problem comes in, no matter whose side you’re one.

@snowberry

Noticed that to, did you?

Site after site, always a ” right ” side to be on and a ” wrong ” side to be on. Moderators protestations against accusations of bias, or not.

EVERYone tries to put human limitations on God, and that includes Christians. That’s one thing that really drove me crazy when I was active in the church.

@Neodarwinian Be careful. If you agree with me too much, you might be labeled naïve too. But not to worry. We’ll get Jackets!

@Dutchess_III I suppose it depends on how you define love. If you see it strictly as an emotion, you definitely have a point. But if you understand that love- true love is not only an emotion, but a commitment, then it’s a different thing altogether. If I had only the emotional kind of love for my husband, I’d have divorced him years ago. Instead I stuck with it. For quite a few years I sure didn’t feel the love, but I spent my life loving him and praying for him anyway. Eventually I got to the point where I had to tell him that it was divorce or counseling, but he had to choose quick or he wouldn’t have a chance. At no point did I ever stop loving him, but I realized that I was not doing him or myself a favor by allowing him to continue to mistreat me. He choose counseling, and now that we are on the other side, I’m glad I hung around. We’re still together, and doing quite well, and really do love each other (36 years now).

He now uses our experiences together as inspiration for his talks, and credits me with “saving him”. I suppose I did in a way. He also says he can tell exactly how a man treats his wife by simply looking at her (it’s how she carries herself and how she relates to others). He couldn’t do this, unless he had had the opportunity to see how it worked in our marriage. He’s always been right on the money.

If I wake up tomorrow and it’s raining flaming skulls, I’ll probably go crazy. But if I don’t, I will assume there is a logic behind said skulls. If there are gods, it’s not because we don’t understand them that logic becomes invalid. As an atheist, I have always fully admitted that there are things which our human minds cannot comprehend, but this doesn’t mean that no explanations exist.