General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Why should I believe in Elohim (God) when He will have me to give up blank, when I don’t want to?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (21539 points ) January 12th, 2014

disclaimer This question deals with Jehovah God, Elohim. This question HAS NOTHING to do with Shiva, Ra, Horus, Zeus, Thor, or any other gods. This is not a question about God’s existence or sovereignty. To deal with this question is to deal from the understanding Elohim exist and is sovereign, and the only God.

You would not believe in Elohim because to do so you would have to stop doing blank, but you do not want to give blank up. What would you place in the blank?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

99 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

You are mixing up belief and worship. These two are different things.
I do not believe in your god because there is no evidence supporting, and no argument to date necessitating its existence.

Even if I believed in its existence, I would not worship it, because it is evil.

whitenoise's avatar

Since I believe in Him, I am not faced with this question.

He doesn’t ask me to give up anything that I don’t want to give up. I want to give up anything that He asks me to, just because it would please Him. He knows how to let me know!

(So far He has made not a single request to give up on anything! I don’t believe the bible has any clear instructions for me, since there are too many ways around and about interpreting anything. I believe in revelation. I was revealed so far, that I am doing fine and He looks at me kindly.)

LostInParadise's avatar

There is nothing that I could insert in the blank. The reason I do not believe in God is that it is unnecessary intellectual baggage that has no consequences.

ragingloli's avatar

And what would one have to give up?
Nothing.
Because being religious, as being evidenced by the behaviour of so many christians and muslims, does not make one a better human being.
You could continue to all the vices you want, and not face the consequences because you can just ask for forgiveness and raptor jesus died for your sins.
You do not believe that?
Even Martin Luther, the founder of Evangelism, taught so:
”If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner.”

What you give up when “believing” in (worshipping) god, is not sin, but accountability for “sin”, and consequences of “sin”.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Free will, ego, pleasure, selfishness, etc…

antimatter's avatar

Have to give up what?
I don’t think free will may fill the blank, if your God does exist, did he not create us at free will?
As far as I know He is an angry God, He is a jealous God and a regretful God. Referring to the Bible.
Hardly a good role model…

Kropotkin's avatar

I do not believe in God, because to do so I would have to stop thinking, but I do not want to give up thinking.

Something like that? Your question isn’t that clear, so I’m not exactly sure what you’re after.

gorillapaws's avatar

I’d use logic/critical rational though in the blanks.

tom_g's avatar

@Kropotkin: “Your question isn’t that clear, so I’m not exactly sure what you’re after.”

It’s based on a particularly-awful apologist tactic that some Christians use (I think Ray Comfort works off something like this). It is troubling for many reasons, including the fact that it assumes the existence of god, and it is dependent on a straw man representation of the atheist. From this perspective, the atheist isn’t simply someone who is unconvinced that a god exists. Rather, the atheist is someone who believes that god exists, but chooses to reject him because s/he refuses to live by god’s rules.

Yep, it’s pretty awful. Anyway, @ragingloli got it in the first response.

Aster's avatar

If I gave up something I’d be doing it for my own well being . If i neglected certain behaviors I’d not do them for my own well being. I am not aware God is involved but He probably is in some of my decisions because I have a fear of Him. If I continued to indulge in caramel apples I’d gain so much weight I’d get diabetes, sore knees, injure my teeth so I don’t eat them except on rare occasions. Is God involved in these decisions? It depends on who you’re talking to ; a Christian or an Atheist . But I call the illnesses and the sore knees and all that accompanies obesity the wrath of God but that’s just the way I think. I believe most of these questions are posted in hopes that someone on here will be able to convince the questioner that a God exists but that is futile. It won’t happen. I’m sorry but it won’t work.

elbanditoroso's avatar

If there is only one god, then why does the word Elohim end in a plural? (In Hebrew, the suffix ‘im’ means that the word is a plural.)

Aster's avatar

People who said “Elohim” believed that there are many gods and there may be. But we can’t know for sure in this life. Even in Genesis it translates to “in the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.” It doesn’t matter to me but it can be googled! lol

glacial's avatar

Your question proceeds from the presumption that people turn to atheism because they can’t bear to give up things like those that @KNOWITALL lists – things like “Free will, ego, pleasure, selfishness, etc”

This is a misconception of why atheists are atheists.

I am an atheist because I don’t believe in any god. It’s not a case of choosing a certain behaviour that I would be punished for over a different behaviour that I would receive a reward for. I am the same person that I would be if I had faith. I have the same sense of morality that I would have if I had faith. Your question, once again, paints atheists as amoral, which we are not.

I have trouble imagining that anyone becomes an atheist for the reason you’re describing. But I understand why you would want to think that we make such a choice.

zenvelo's avatar

You would not believe in Elohim because to do so you would have to stop doing blank, but you do not want to give blank up.

blank = thinking. Elohim sounds like a cheap ass god.

SavoirFaire's avatar

I would not refuse to believe in something just because it would be inconvenient. Indeed, that would be the appeal to consequences fallacy. When most people say “why should I believe in God if _____,” what they are pointing out is a perceived logical gap. They think that no rational God would require someone to give some particular thing up, so any religion that posits such a God must be mistaken. If I were truly convinced that there really was a God who demanded that I give up something that I could not go without, however, I would not refuse to believe in Him. I would simply refuse to obey Him.

@KNOWITALL You say you would refuse to believe in God if He asked you to give up ego, pleasure, or selfishness. So then, do you not think that Christianity asks you to give these things up?

keobooks's avatar

This is silly. Your parents didn’t allow you to do things as a kid. Did not believing in them make it easier to do what you wanted to do? No. Your parents still existed, regardless. I would think this was more valid if you asked why FOLLOW a god that forbids you to do what you want to do, but belief in itself? Just silly.

Rarebear's avatar

What @ragingloli said.

And the answer to your “blank” is “sanity”

LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , Now that I have answered your question, maybe you will be the first one willing to answer my flip of it (I have asked many times here but have had no takers).

What do you do differently because of your religious belief?

ETpro's avatar

Count me in the @Rarebear camp. I will not give up my critical thinking ability for any claimed god. I don’t believe an real god would ask that of me.

There may be a creator, but the group self identifying as Allah, El, Elaha, Elim, Elohim, Jehovah, Lord, The Trinity, and Yahweh are so clearly contraindicated by the contradictions, falsehoods and hideous morals of the ancient writings purporting to be His/Their revealed word that I am confident that, should there be a creator, they are not candidates for the post.

ninjacolin's avatar

I don’t think anyone ever has this challenge when it comes to whether or not to believe in God. Belief in God doesn’t come down to whether or not it suits me, it comes down to whether or not I am convinced.

The only people who worship a god, like the Elohim character or Satan for example, do so because they are convinced of it’s value. It’s no different than choosing whether to wear rain boots on a given day or not.

If you don’t think a particular God exists you’re not going to worship him. Pretty simple.

Gotta say, this question seems to illustrate well the way so many believers judge non-believers completely incorrectly. They assume it must be greed or egoism or something malicious or “sinful” causing disbelief. Probably because ancient believers wrote the bible and put such assumptions into the writings which modern day writers perform their missionary work based on. It’s essentially a passed on false-judgement; A bible mis-truth passed on to its unsuspecting followers when in reality it isn’t at all a sticking point for non-believers. It isn’t a material concern and as such, it isn’t a good missionary tactic. But we’ll continue to see stuff like this for years to come. No one cares about anything but the truth. The bible doesn’t seem true: That’s why people don’t follow it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Sorry, but I really cannot think of anything which must be given up in order to believe in the God of the bible.

That’s like suggesting that a vegetarian must stop believing that beef exists.

glacial's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I don’t think that’s a good analogy to what he’s asking. It’s more like: If you knew there was a god of vegetarianism, and knew it was right to be a vegetarian, and that was the path to salvation, would you choose not to be a vegetarian because you didn’t want to give up meat?

ragingloli's avatar

@glacial
But you do not have to become a vegetarian.
You can continue to stuff your face with meat all you like, all you have to do in the end is ask for forgiveness, and bam, God of Vegetarianism is pleased.

LostInParadise's avatar

Implicit in this question is the notion that religious people are morally superior. This, of course, is simply not true. Prisons are full of believers. There are organized crime figures who are big supporters of churches. Not to mention all the fundamentalists around the world who kill in the name of their religion.

Let me see by a show of hands the theists here for whom religious belief is a deciding factor in turning away from sin.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@LosInParadise I. I’ve curbed behavior, words, actions, etc.. because of God many times. Prison converts.

LostInParadise's avatar

Prison more often turns small-time crooks into hardened criminals.

I will take you at your word that your belief in God guides your actions. Just understand that there are others of us who are not wired that way, whose moral compasses are more internally driven. That does not in any way diminish our moral sense.

JimTurner's avatar

The older I’ve become the more I feel that a person’s physical, mental and psychological state mixed in with their culture, family history and life experiences decides their belief or nonbelief in things that cannot be explained with reason or intellect.

Two people can start out honestly searching for truth and deeply immerse themselves in spirituality, religion, even the occult and the paranormal. One may walk away believing in a God, god or multiple deities. The other person after going through a similar course will find that the material has only strengthen their non-belief.

I am a Christian because my Life Journey has led me there but I once knew an atheist who was a better person than I could ever be.

gorillapaws's avatar

@LostInParadise not to mention Jehovah’s Wittnesses who let their kids die instead of allowing a simple blood transfusion that would certainly save their lives. All because there’s a passage in the bible somewhere that says not to drink blood, despite Christ himself saying something like “take this cup of my blood and drink it.”

ragingloli's avatar

and that there is a big difference between drinking and a transfusion.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@LostInParadise
“Prison more often turns small-time crooks into hardened criminals.” Could go either way.

I will take you at your word that your belief in God guides your actions. Just understand that there are others of us who are not wired that way, whose moral compasses are more internally driven. That does not in any way diminish our moral sense.”

Agreed. I didn’t say it did diminish your moral sense in any way.

Skaggfacemutt's avatar

Well, no god has ever talked to me personally, so obviously has never told me to give up anything. And I don’t believe anything that anyone else tells me, especially if they tell me that god told them to tell me… if god wants something of me, he will have to tell me himself.

As far as that still, small voice inside your head – that is what it is – you, talking to yourself, projecting onto yourself what you think god would say. So just don’t tell yourself to give up stuff that you don’t want to give up, and problem solved.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think you should not listen to your conscience. If you feel bad about something that you are doing and want to give it up to better yourself, then listen, by all means.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ragingloli You are mixing up belief and worship.
No. It was you who mixed up what the question asked. I assume you did read it? Was it too detailed? Should I have simplified it? If you don’t believe in God (Elohim), or can imagine you do, and not a bunch of other false gods that were not mentioned or part of this question; this question was not for you. Maybe you would have better understanding of those questions asking what a cactus should be named, if he/she likes me, do you like scones over muffins, etc. If I had asked the question about dodging the question about God you do not believe in, then you would have possibly had a pertinent answer. Your quips are whimsical, as the evidence of support by your fan club.

These two are different things. I do not believe in your god because there is no evidence supporting, and no argument to date necessitating its existence.
Rest of that poppycock is not even worth the time of day.

What you give up when “believing” in (worshipping) god, is not sin, but accountability for “sin”, and consequences of “sin”.
If you actually opened a Bible and read it you might have a clue what you are saying. Since you want to use the Cliff Note Bible, I expect you to get it wrong

@LostInParadise The reason I do not believe in God is that it is unnecessary intellectual baggage that has no consequences.
Elucidate, what are some of the details, or specifics?

@antimatter I don’t think free will may fill the blank, if your God does exist, did he not create us at free will?
If you cannot attack the question on the premise God (Elohim) exists, I could link you something easier, on the line of why does the vacuum bag fill up when I pass the cleaner over the rug, or something. Of course He gave you free will. You give your children free will in some things but not all things, same as your parents gave you. You chose to believe your parents because they made you or what you believed that your parents told you, you did because you wanted to?

@tom_g Believers have nothing to apologize for, not to you, or anyone else. I suppose the atheist apologist tactic is to distance God from any reality by stating it is a crutch men created to explain the unexplained, or ease pain and suffering when there is no one else to blame. Rather, the atheist is someone who believes that god exists, but chooses to reject him because s/he refuses to live by god’s rules. that is not only wrong, but dead wrong. I did not state I believe atheist believe in God but choose not to follow or worship Him. That would be to assume atheist would give up making themselves god, something I would not bet on Of course if it were true, (but not) it would still be not as ridiculous that your quality of life is lessened because you follow God, or that one becomes brain dead walking.

Refer to first comment, there are questions more suitable for you than this one.

@elbanditoroso If there is only one god, then why does the word Elohim end in a plural? (In Hebrew, the suffix ‘im’ means that the word is a plural.)
If you really want to know, I will tell you. If your question is merely a shell trying to point to what you believe is some error, then I don’t have the time of day.

@LostInParadise Now that I have answered your question, maybe you will be the first one willing to answer my flip of it (I have asked many times here but have had no takers)
What do you do differently because of your religious belief?
If you called what you wrote an answer, let’s see if I can respond in like manner:
Because of my faith I gained control over my secular, faithless debase mind, when I lived as the word does.
There, I think I equaled it.

That does not in any way diminish our moral sense.
Who is ”our” and who made it better than those of someone else?

@ETpro I don’t believe an real god would ask that of me.
They can’t anyhow, they are made of wood, stone, metal, etc. they can neither hear, speak, see or talk. God (the only true God) wants man to think very critically; it is man who makes himself a god and thus believes his own thinking to be the best, and believes by way of redacted that God is trying to control him like a puppet when all along man is, just not by whom he thinks.

@glacial This is a misconception of why atheists are atheists.
Give me the Cliff Notes then, why are atheist, atheist, and what benefit do atheist believe they are getting?

I have the same sense of morality that I would have if I had faith.
Please explain how that is possible, (providing your morality has to come from some man)?

Your question, once again, paints atheists as amoral, which we are not.
That is the way you see it, perhaps you are convicted by that thinking because the aforementioned comment is inherently flawed.

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Response moderated
LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , What I meant by my original answer is that I do not see how belief in God could have any impact on what I do. I know right from wrong without having to read it in a book, and I do not need the inducement of eternal bliss or the threat of eternal damnation to do the right thing. Goodness is its own reward.

ragingloli's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central
I gave you the answer your “question” deserved. You can take it or leave it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Anything you say from here on out, I will treat as a blast of wind, God bless you and I pray He has mercy on you; you don’t believe in Him, but He certainly believes in you. However, when you finally meet face to face it may not be as joyful as you think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you will make some quip about His non-existence, hopefully one day you will get the right stuff to be able to hone in on the Spirit. X-rays existed long before anyone ever discovered them; they were still every bit real then as He is now. Have a nice life, by your own admission, this is all you are ever going to have

ragingloli's avatar

Anything you say from here on out, I will treat as a blast of wind
That is all you ever produce.
When I meet IT, I will kick IT in whatever IT calls ITs genitals.

ragingloli's avatar

Also:
Hail Satan.

JimTurner's avatar

Somewhere along the line disciples have been made to believe that the belief in God goes along with behavior modification. One can easily follow the law of the land or the law of the sea and live an upstanding life.

Since the beginning of time civilizations, tribes and clans have had certain rules that its members had to obey. These basic laws predate Moses’s 10 commandments and the pillar that supports Hammurabi’s codes. All though they are instructions on how to live they are primarily used to keep order and barbarism at bay.

One shows their beliefs through how they practice yet before bowing and or folding hands one should understand the roots of the ceremony. They may find that some of the rituals they are using run counter to what they are trying to achieve.

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Give me the Cliff Notes then, why are atheist, atheist, and what benefit do atheist believe they are getting?”

Well, most of the people answering here are trying to explain that, but you are ignoring them as “off topic”.

If you meant to limit this question to only those atheists who believe that God exists, you may find only tumbleweeds in here. I don’t know, maybe that would have answered your question better. It’s kind of unrealistic in Flutherland, though.

This is the point people are trying to make: atheists don’t deny a God that they know exists because following him is too difficult. They simply don’t believe he exists in the first place, so following him is not even an option to consider.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Give me the Cliff Notes then, why are atheist, atheist, and what benefit do atheist believe they are getting?”

You don’t believe in something because there is a benefit, you believe in something because there is evidence to support the belief. I could believe I’ll win the lottery by buying a ticket and playing my “lucky numbers” but that belief has no correspondence to reality.

Do you believe in leprechauns? There would be great benefits if they existed and you were able to catch one and get a pot of gold. You don’t though. Why not (that’s a serious question)? Think about why you don’t believe in leprechauns and apply the same logic to the atheist. That is why they don’t believe in God.

I’m not an atheist btw, but I understand their position.

LostInParadise's avatar

The foolishness of thinking that belief should be based on benefits ties in nicely with the Christan view. If belief were really based on benefits then there would be no reason not to believe, since the promise of salvation trumps any short term hardships.

I discount Pascal’s wager on the grounds that the whole dying for sin idea makes no sense to me, so that, as far as I am concerned, there is no more reason to think that believing in Christ leads to salvation than jumping up and down 3 times on one foot. That leads to too many possible things that I might do that could lead to my salvation.

ninjacolin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central your question wasn’t very clear but now that I’ve read your response above, I think I get your true question. So, I’ll go ahead and ask your question for you, but I want you to note that my version of your question is my personal, man-made interpretation. And unless you step in to tell me in plain English whether or not my fallible, human interpretation is accurate, I can never truly “know” whether my it is accurate at all and in fact I am relying on my own understanding of your somewhat cryptic fluther question.

Ready? Okay. I believe your “true” question is this:

Given your personal, man-made, utterly fallible understanding of the Bible and it’s rather cryptic messages which very few people (if any) actually agree on, what would it take for you to believe the God character described therein is not only a real being but THE true creator of everything?

And my answer to that is this:

Given my understanding of the God described in the Bible, I would require persuasion concerning certain premises which I currently believe are true; I would need to be persuaded that they are false. I’m not certain exactly how many of these premises there are in my mind. But I can name a few big ones that stick out (as time allows):

a) I would need to believe that there really is such a thing as free will. The God of the Bible seems big on judging people based on their decisions in life. However, I feel quite certain that the decisions people make aren’t really their fault and that instead their actions are the result of utterly uncontrollable forces. The God of the Bible doesn’t fit very well with the realities of a determined universe where people can’t make real choices.

b) I would need to believe that the Bible stories weren’t intended to be taken literally in a lot of places where they seem clearly to violate Scientifically verified truth. It would be okay if the bible stories could always be interpreted as allegories but they aren’t written that way, to the best of my understanding. Just as an example (I don’t want to get hung up on this one) The Bible says man showed up as a distinct creation, separate from the animals just a few years ago. But the fossil record and the existence of the potential for creatures to evolve makes it clear that that wasn’t the case.

hmm.. actually, those are my two big ones. The rest, I’m realizing are derivative.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I said: “I don’t believe an real god would ask that of me.” where “that” was giving up critical thinking.

You responded: “They can’t anyhow, they are made of wood, stone, metal, etc. they can neither hear, speak, see or talk.” NO Those are not real gods. Wood and stone and golden carvings don’t speak to me.

Upi went on: “God (the only true God) wants man to think very critically; it is man who makes himself a god and thus believes his own thinking to be the best, and believes by way of redacted that God is trying to control him like a puppet when all along man is, just not by whom he thinks.”

So this true got wants me to think critically but I can think my thinking has any value. You are making absolutely no sense, which puts you in excellent agreement with your cherished holy book or Bronze age musings.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial Well, most of the people answering here are trying to explain that, but you are ignoring them as “off topic”.
I ignored what was truly redacted, redacted, and redacted, just to keep cussing from happening due to thin skin.

If you meant to limit this question to only those atheists who believe that God exists, you may find only tumbleweeds in here. If you meant to limit this question to only those atheists who believe that God exists, you may find only tumbleweeds in here.
I probably would have gotten more intellectual conversation from those weeds. It was not a question for atheist only, however, if any chose to partake they would have to fathom Elohim may exist.

They simply don’t believe he exists in the first place, so following him is not even an option to consider.
Then for those atheist they should have been smart enough to realize this is not a question for them, there were other questions with tangible cacti they can see, touch, weigh and measure, they can figure out how to name, or question of a nice throw, should it be placed on the love seat or the sofa questions.

LostInParadise's avatar

Point of clarification. By definition, there are no atheists who believe in God, on this site, in this universe or in any other possible universe. So just who is this question intended for?

glacial's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Please explain how your question, which begins “You would not believe in Elohim because… ” (my emphasis) is a question for theists. It seems pretty clear from both your question and details that it is directed to atheists. Have you forgotten what question you asked?

whitenoise's avatar

Sorry… I thought this question was intended to be interpreted as if you believe god exists.

Now you truly seem to go over the short end….

Btw you do realize that you are insulting pretty much everyone? Those that not believe directly through your words and those that do by asociating yourself with them?

Why all the hostility? If you’re right then, you’ll sure be fine and the rest of the people may even be fine as well… After all God is forgiving…

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@glacial It seems pretty clear from both your question and details that it is directed to atheists. Have you forgotten what question you asked?
If it were a question just for atheist I would have stated it that way. It was a question for all to answer if they chose to, believers, unbelievers, agnostics, Satanist, atheist, somewhere in between. The only thing made clear is why you were not following God. As with believers and vegetarians some do not hold a hard fast line on ”no God”, I was not going to speculate who they were or exclude them, or anyone else from answering. If the Spirit convicted anyone and they thought it was about them when it wasn’t, as I said before, there were plenty of name that cacti questions, does he/she like me questions, and such they could have move d on to, and been perfectly at home in.

@whitenoise Sorry… I thought this question was intended to be interpreted as if you believe god exists
If one attacks the question with the belief that God exist, even if in their heart they don’t, that is fine. If you can’t bring yourself to even entertain that thought, then you would never be able to do the question, so the question would not be for you and you should pass to some of those other questions.

Btw you do realize that you are insulting pretty much everyone?
I am not insulting anyone, had I been the mods would be working overtime. Darkness hates light, if anyone feel offended because I am not blowing smoke up their tailpipe, I guess that is just the way it will be. Anyone who feels insulted might check themselves in the mirror. If it comes to making friends here and losing my soul as oppose to being a friend of God and having the world pissed, I guess there will be 17 billion pissed off people. I am here but a vapor, I will be in heaven an eternity; weigh that on the balance and tell me if there is a better way?

Those that not believe directly through your words and those that do by asociating yourself with them?
Don’t dare say those are my words, they are His words as the Spirit gave men to record in the Bible. People can believe anything they want. People are free to believe lies, conjecture, their own mind, or the Devil, believing he is their own mind. That will not stop me from waking up someone from their slumber.

Why all the hostility?
Believe me, I am not hostile to anyone here, I would not think the same when I account some of the comments made to me, and the language used, if I were hostile, as I say, the mods would be working overtime. I am fine, I pray you will all be fine before it is too late. ;-|

whitenoise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

You don’t know my beliefs… Contrary to you I don’t spit them in people’s faces…

It has been more than three years ago that I said anything about my belief in God on fluther…

Don’t label me…

Btw…. Not being hostile…. You promise eternal death and suffering to most anyone that dares to challenge your often erratic messages.

ninjacolin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central did I answer your question appropriately? I tried.

JimTurner's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

It’s a hard road when one takes the position of John the Baptist in condemning those who will not listen to your voice as it cries out in the desert “Repent and Prepare the Way for the Lord” even when it is done on a public forum.

It takes courage and I applaud you but remember that John’s head landed up on a silver platter. It should not surprise you that you have been met with some resistance to your questions and responses. Maybe you should prepare a little more so that you don’t appear judgmental.

I hope I haven’t overreached my boundary. I think both sides of the coin have valid points.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@whitenoise It has been more than three years ago that I said anything about my belief in God on fluther…
Don’t label me…
I do not try to label anyone directly, especially when I know what they say they are. As with the theme of this site, it comes down to the evidence on can measure; if I walk in a room and ask those who are roofers and framers to stand up, if there is a roofer or framer there that doesn’t stand up, I have to figure they are not a roofer or a framer but something else. If you are not saying you are of Christ or in support of His commandments, I have to figure you are something else, right?

@ninjacolin did I answer your question appropriately? I tried.
Actually you had a lot of interesting points in there, sorry I have not yet address any of them, I had to keep my buckler in front of me; it was like the 300 off to fight Xerxes, there were so many arrows I had to fight in the shade. You at least gave a better, more concise reason why you do not believe in God other than using the excuse tactic of merely saying it is ridiculous.

@JimTurner It takes courage and I applaud you but remember that John’s head landed up on a silver platter.
He may have, but he died for something and Someone; better than being marched off to die for any mere man, that would be a waste.

should not surprise you that you have been met with some resistance to your questions and responses. Maybe you should prepare a little more so that you don’t appear judgmental.
If they feel convicted maybe it is the Spirit because I am not judging them. I am pointing out what the Bible and the God who wrote it, be it through the prophets as ghost writers of sort says. It is He who will judge, those who believe, and even those who don’t. Thanks for your words, but I know who’s playground I am in.

Do stick around Jim. :-)

SavoirFaire's avatar

“If you are not saying you are of Christ or in support of His commandments, I have to figure you are something else, right?”

You don’t have to do anything, @Hypocrisy_Central. Certainly, you do not have to make assumptions about people based on inadequate evidence. After all, you lack the authority to demand that roofers, framers, theists, Christians, or anyone else stand up to be counted. So the fact that people haven’t laid out their beliefs to you is a rather weak—and possibly fallacious—basis for drawing conclusions about them (see: argument from silence).

whitenoise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central
I am not syaing anything about my faith, because doing so would and will put me in serious danger of nasty repercusions. Here on fluther as well as in the real world.

Here on fluther, from some religious nutcakes that think they are the only ones with their personal interpretations to be right.

You, for isntance, seem to be someone I wouldn’t want to be targeted or asociated with… Asking me to worship a God that you yourself paint as a rather vindictive, jealous, nasty God. a God that does nothing to help but is ready to hand out punishment. That would never be my God. So any time I discuss with you, I do that based on the flaws in your reasoning that are so often so visibly there.

However, fluther fruitcakes are not the only reason… The most important one is that in real life there are a lot of people around me that belief in Elohim the same way you seem to do…. Ready to physically hurt me, even kill me, if I would share my belief in God. (and they are actively checking the web to find people amongst their mids that do…)

There are too many religious zealots in this world. and on fluther

KNOWITALL's avatar

@whitenoise Personally, I think it’s very brave to speak up for what you believe and be able to deal with healthy personal attacks (non-physical.)

This isn’t a popularity contest for me or apparently @Hypocrisy_Central, obviously, but calling anyone names is rather immature, and of course, some of us ould have a completely different interpretation of ‘fluther fruitcakes’ than you do, but would hesitate to use disparaging language to other people.

whitenoise's avatar

I was definitely not referring to you, @KNOWITALL

And, sorry, but I do get upset when people insist on telling me I’m going to burn in hell for not agreeing with them. Why is that okay?

In a world, where people kill others on a daily basis for lacking ‘their’ belief, you feel it is okay to say things like that? Come on… Fruitcake is a rather friendly term for people that threaten me with eternal damnation, without even knowing a thing about me…

And yes… This gets under my skin, particularly, because I live in a country where the penalty for speaking my mind in this respect is death. They would kill @hypo and you as well, by the way.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@whitenoise I didn’t take it personally at all, I’m just saying the bible specifically says people will want to kill you for believing in God/ Jesus. It says it in Revelations, so it’s no big surprise and I just don’t care to go down for what I believe if necessary.

I may believe you’d go to Hell for not believing in God/ Jesus but I wouldn’t bait you with that to irritate you, I think that’s just uncalled for and doesn’t show love. As far as agreeing with me, heck I don’t even know that I’m right, I’m just doing the best I can with what I have to work with, so no, I don’t think you have to agree with me.

That’s why I’m in America and have guns honey, they’d have to catch me before I caught them…lol. Be safe.

Rarebear's avatar

If a God won’t let me into the party because I don’t “believe” in her, then I don’t want to go anyway. Seems silly to me that a criminal Christian would get preference over a righteous atheist. But whatevah.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@whitenoise And, sorry, but I do get upset when people insist on telling me I’m going to burn in hell for not agreeing with them. Why is that okay?
I never tell anyone to agree with me if I am not in agreement with that the Bible says. I will tell anyone if it is my thought on the Bible because there is no specific information of it in the Bible. I am telling you and anyone else what the Bible says, but if you don’t believe in the Bible, just go do as you have been, it won’t affect you anyhow. If I tell you that speeding through a construction will land you a hefty fine because of what I read in the driver’s handbook from the DMV, if you heard your neighbor doing that in front of the CHP and not getting a ticket, if you choose not to believe what is in the book as false, misread or something, you are not going to slow through the construction zone. Even if it were on the books if no one you know ever got a ticket for it, then it isn’t real to you and having someone tell you is no foul; just go drive the way you all ways had. If you don’t believe the Bible is true, than it has no effect on how you live no matter who said it, someone else or I.

They would kill @hypo and you as well, by the way.
Better to die for Someone, and something, than to die for nothing; plus all they are doing is ridding me of this fleshly tent and sending me to glory. All they can do is kill this body, they have no power to destroy my soul. Some people may be afraid of dying because they don’t know where they are going or this is all they will ever have, so they are trying to hang onto it as long as they can.

@Rarebear Seems silly to me that a criminal Christian would get preference over a righteous atheist.
Because neither is possible, you can have a believer stumble with crime, if they are criminal that is in their heart and their nature, so they are unwilling to do as Christ tells them. You can’t get to heaven unless you accept the sacrifice Christ made, if you don’t believe in Christ (I.E. being an atheist) how can you accept the sacrifice, and to accept the sacrifice one must believe.

Rarebear's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Ah. So your heaven is for only for people who believe in the Christ. Got it. Enjoy yourself!

whitenoise's avatar

@hypo
I wish you would be able to see how strikingly similar your rhetorics are to those of the ones around me here.

All ready to know that the ‘others’ are not in the love of their God. even though that may be the same god

The way you talk, you come across to me, like you are trying to convince yourself of your worthiness of His love by putting down the rest. Quite sure that isn’t the best way.

The real problem is that people like you are scary. Especially in the current age. Not because I fear your interpretation of God’s love is right, but rather because I see daily what people like you are capable of. Capable in terms of indifference to the fates of the unfaithful and of cruelty to those others in general.

All for their own benefit. And that of your God. (Who trumps the one of other people.)

gorillapaws's avatar

@Rarebear Except Christ was a Jew. I wonder if God made an exception for him?

Rarebear's avatar

@gorillapaws Right. Well, if this is a case that doesn’t scream for the special pleading fallacy then I don’t know what is.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@gorillapaws @Rarebear Are you two suggesting that Jesus didn’t believe in himself?

gorillapaws's avatar

@SavoirFaire It’s certainly a possibility. He didn’t write the new testament after all. It wouldn’t be the first time someone’s followers embellished the “facts” to make things sound cooler than they were. I really have no idea, nor any way of finding out.

It’s certainly possible that Christ was a philosopher, who became deified after death by his pupils, or maybe he was in fact the son of God.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@gorillapaws But now you’re changing the context. The original question was whether or not Jesus would be allowed into Heaven if @Hypocrisy_Central‘s interpretation of Christianity is factual. Obviously, it all falls apart if Jesus wasn’t actually the son of God. But if he was, then surely he believed enough in his own mission to get in. That’s my point: the fact that Jesus was ethnically Jewish does not make it a case of special pleading.

gorillapaws's avatar

@SavoirFaire Well if you want to get pedantic about it, it is still logically possible (although highly unlikely) that Christ was the son of God, but in fact didn’t believe it himself, and his followers imbellished the facts to make it seem like he did believe. It’s pretty ridiculous, but not a logically absurd claim.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear Ah. So your heaven is for only for people who believe in the Christ. Got it. Enjoy yourself!
I don’t thinks so. Heaven is open for all but if you don’t believe it exist or the way in, then it is useless to you. No different if I told you that the Ferry Building in San Fran was giving away Halliburtons full of gold bullion if you went through a particular door. If you did not believe the Ferry Building existed because you never seen photos of it, you believed it was their but that there were no bullion given away, or you believed the bullion was there but that the way in did not exist, so you never acted on trying to get in, the bullion was always there, but only to those who believe the path to it. If you don’t care to take the path to heaven how can you get upset when you do not make it there?

@whitenoise The way you talk, you come across to me, like you are trying to convince yourself of your worthiness of His love by putting down the rest. Quite sure that isn’t the best way.
You said it, ”the way you see it”, which is not the way it is.

@gorillapaws Except Christ was a Jew. I wonder if God made an exception for him?
What does that mean? Wow, to not know that……I am speechless.

It’s certainly possible that Christ was a philosopher, who became deified after death by his pupils, or maybe he was in fact the son of God.

Acts 5:33–39

33 But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, ateacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central By the Acts 5:33–39 standard, Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon and many others who claimed to be somebody actually were sanctioned by the one true God because their followers were not scattered after their deaths.

Rarebear's avatar

You completely lost me. The Ferry Building exists. I was just there last week. What does that have to do with heaven?

ETpro's avatar

@Rarebear I actually thought H C’s analogy was understandable. You aren’t going to go some place you don’t believe exists, because you won’t seek a path to get there. I find that theology irreconcilable with the actions of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent God, but that’s a different issue and doesn’t detract from the clarity of the analogy.

whitenoise's avatar

@ETpro

You are rigth about it being understandable, however… that analogy seems not to be how HC’s faith works according to other Chrisitains. Whether you’re interested in going to heaven or in going to hell is irrelevant… you’re still going there.
(Even in his own example, you don’t need to believe in that door… You just need to go through it. You may just have wanted to go to a rest room… Entry into heaven by accident…)

There is no ‘choice’ after death, there is judgement. HC may have seen too many Harry Potter movies, where the sorting hat actually cars about what you want.

whitenoise's avatar

I need to start wearing glasses, sorry for the typos. My previous post should have read:

@ETpro

You are right about it being understandable, however… that analogy seems not to be how HC’s faith works according to other Christians. Whether you’re interested in going to heaven or in going to hell is irrelevant… you’re still going there.
(Even in his own example, you don’t need to believe in that door… You just need to go through it. You may just have wanted to go to a rest room… Entry into heaven by accident…)

There is no ‘choice’ after death, there is judgement. HC may have seen too many Harry Potter movies, where the sorting hat actually cares about what you want.

Rarebear's avatar

@ETpro No, he’s making a false comparison. The Ferry Building is something that is verifiable. Heaven is not. And with his analogy, let’s say he told me that the Ferry Building was giving away gold and I believed it. I went to the Ferry Building. That doesn’t mean that the gold exists. Simply my believing it doesn’t make it so. Same thing with Heaven.

He said “You can’t get to heaven unless you accept the sacrifice Christ made” Fair enough. It’s a clear statement. I followed up with, “So your heaven is only for people who believe in Christ.” It’s simply a restatement of what he said.

But then he said, ” Heaven is open for all but if you don’t believe it exist or the way in, then it is useless to you.”

So which is it? Is heaven for only those who accept Christ, or is heaven open to all who believe in it?

ETpro's avatar

@Rarebear Granted. His meaning was clear, but the items compared are quite different.

Good luck in pinning down his eschatology. I haven’t been able to. Even things he’s just said are not true when you read them back to him. Perhaps we’re just dealing with a contrarian who enjoys such games.

Rarebear's avatar

@ETpro Oh, I have no doubt he’s not going to be pinned down. I’m just pointing out that he just said two almost completely opposite things. Either Heaven is only for those who believe in Christ’s sacrifice, or it’s for anybody who believes in Heaven.

LostInParadise's avatar

Actually, HC is making sense. The Christian view is that Christ is offering to relieve you of your sins if you hand them over like a sack of potatoes. I am a bit unclear on how the mechanics of this works and I don’t go along with the objectification of an abstract concept like sin, but the idea is that you have to first find Christ in order to hand over your sins, and then thus unencumbered you will be able to gain entry into Heaven.

Rarebear's avatar

@LostInParadise Did you see my post four above this one? He is not making sense. On the one hand he says that getting into Heaven requires a belief that Christ died for your sins, and the other post (where he uses the Ferry Building analogy) he says that getting into Heaven simply requires a belief that said Heaven exists.

(Neither of which, I may add, have anything do with being a righteous person).

LostInParadise's avatar

What he describes as “the path to Heaven” is the act of turning your sins over to Christ. It is not so much a belief as an act, which admittedly is dependent on a belief. I am certainly not agreeing with him, but I can understand his point of view.

Rarebear's avatar

@LostInParadise Ah…okay. He lost me with the whole Ferry Building and belief in the gold bullion thing.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ETpro By the Acts 5:33–39 standard, Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon and many others who claimed to be somebody actually were sanctioned by the one true God because their followers were not scattered after their deaths.
If you tried to marginalize it down to one point of fact; followers being scattered, then it might. Those people you spoke of, I would have to ask where are their followers? What the passage was saying in a nutshell that if a person is a false prophet and you kill the leader, the movement, or religion will more time than not, fade away and become nothing. Basically if Christ was just a philosopher once he was dead what he preached would eventually become nothing.

@Rarebear You completely lost me. The Ferry Building exists. I was just there last week. What does that have to do with heaven?
You proved the point, you would go to the Ferry Building because you know it exist and you have been there before. However, if you did not believe the Ferry Building was there, or even that San Francisco existed for some reason, you would not go, no matter what gain was promised. It doesn’t have to be the Ferry Building; it could be some small, obscure taco restaurant in blank Texas. You have never been there, and chances Are, no one you know would have been there. If I told you that if you went there and ate the Super Flambé 5lb burrito under 45 min without puking, they will give
you a vehicle worth $45,000. Why would you go if:

1. You do not believe there is a taco restaurant doing that.
2. You do not know the taco restaurant even exist to make the offer.
3. You do not believe the town exists because you can’t Google it and no one else you trust ever heard of it.
4. Even if you did believe the town it was in existed, believed there was a taco restaurant, and even if you believed they had a contest, if you did not believe they would actually honor the deal if you met the winning conditions.
You would not go, and if you never went then no matter how real or false the offer was, it is useless to you.

So which is it? Is heaven for only those who accept Christ, or is heaven open to all who believe in it?
Even is open to all, but those who don’t believe in Christ will not find it. To believe that heaven exist and not knowing Christ is the way to it would be a miserable state for anyone. You been to the Ferry Building so you believe, if you also believed there was gold there but the way in was known only to one person; he had the key. Believing that the gold was there or knowing that the gold was there would do nothing if you did not believe that the specific person was the way in. Simply believing in heaven will not get you into heaven. One could believe in the Ferry Building, but if one doesn’t enter what is inside is of no consequence; you are still on the outside, not inside.

@whitenoise (Even in his own example, you don’t need to believe in that door… You just need to go through it. You may just have wanted to go to a rest room… Entry into heaven by accident…)
It would be no accident that anyone found the door; no more than they can find themselves driving a tractor trailer rig down the street by accident, it is a deliberate act. If you approached is as one seeking the restroom you’d be nowhere near it for that to happen.

@LostInParadise I am a bit unclear on how the mechanics of this works and I don’t go along with the objectification of an abstract concept like sin, but the idea is that you have to first find Christ in order to hand over your sins, and then thus unencumbered you will be able to gain entry into Heaven.
The simple mechanics is this; sin is a separation and departure from God. This happened in the Garden of Eden when Eve bit the fruit and Adam knowing better followed her. They then knew the difference between good and evil, so they could not claim ignorance. If you were on a stretch of road that had no posted speed limit, and you cut loose and let her rip, even though there may have been speed laws governing that road you did not know. Because you don’t know, you would reasonably believe you were doing no wrong. Someone points out to you that you were speeding so of you continue to speed you know you are breaking the law. Whereas before you cruised down the road at 90–110mph caring only not to crash, now you’d be looking over your shoulder for the cops, because you know speeding could cost you a ticket.

No new human could come through Adam and Eve perfect and sinless because it was impossible. How can flawed parents raise a sinless child? Mankind would be totally and completely cut off from having a perfect relationship with God because of the sin (separation). God cannot abide in the presence of sin. Imagine something you find so repugnant you cannot be in it or next to it under any circumstances; that is the way sin is to God. No matter how well you acted or how nice you basically cannot scrub the stench of sin off you. The only way to remove it is to accept that Christ became that way; he paid for all of your sins when He died on the cross. He lived a life that was perfect and without sin, because as physical lambs, goats, rams, etc. had to be perfect, only a perfect man could be a sacrifice for man, animals are beneath man so they would only cover the sin for a year but not be propitiation for sin. To believe that Christ paid your sin, you have to give Him the credit and honor due Him for doing it. If you had a debt and I paid it, if you believed and accepted it, would you keep paying? If you don’t believe in Christ, His death and resurrection, how can you believe your sin has been paid for and covered? If you do not believe He exists and is the covering of your sin, or if you even have sin, how can you hand them over?

Rarebear's avatar

No, your analogy is still flawed. Even if I didn’t believe in the Ferry Building, it would still exist.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away”—Philip K. Dick.

The presence of a Ferry Building is verifiable and reproducible. Your heaven is not.

So out of curiosity, what do you believe happens to all of these people who don’t happen believe in Christ after they die?

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Aha. The “No True Scotsman” fallacy rides to the rescue. You do know I don’t debate you with any illusion I will change someone so doxastically closed, right? I debate you to get you to display the bankruptcy of your defense mechanisms. Keep ‘em coming.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear No, your analogy is still flawed. Even if I didn’t believe in the Ferry Building, it would still exist.

“Sokath, his eyes uncovered”!! (as provided by Star Trek)

You wish to see it flawed but you have proved it. Let’s take what you said and apply it a different way; ”Even if I don’t believe in Heaven, it would still exist”. You have the answer. What I am saying is it is not real to you, or anyone else who chooses to deny its existence. My premise is that it matters if you or anyone else believes it or not, it is real and exist.

So out of curiosity, what do you believe happens to all of these people who don’t happen believe in Christ after they die?
I only know what and where they will go as stated in the Bible and it would not be Heaven if they do not go through Christ. As you say, they are free to believe the way to heaven is through whatever god, stone idol, etc. they choose to believe, that won’t make it correct.

@ETpro You do know I don’t debate you with any illusion I will change someone so doxastically(?) closed, right? I debate you to get you to display the bankruptcy of your defense mechanisms.
Yet I have boat load on top of boat loads left in the bank; good luck on that bankruptcy, it appears you are the only one having it. As you said to another in a different thread, that there are things you don’t know and what you do know had a chance of being proven wrong in the future, whether you are alive to see it or not. That is probably the truest thing that ever came from your mouth. To believe in something that is possibly flawed all the way or in many parts seems to be betting with Monopoly money than anything. Just because you don’t believe, because you simply can’t grasp it, doesn’t mean it is wrong. You believe what has errors, I believe what is certain, even if I can’t show you the smoking gun, but neither can you.

Rarebear's avatar

You’re missing the point, either deliberately or otherwise. The Ferry Building can be proven to exist. Heaven can not. Belief in something does not make it so. I can believe that monkeys fly out of my butt but that doesn’t make monkeys fly out of my butt. You believe in Heaven. You believe that people who don’t believe as you believe won’t go to Heaven. But there is no verifiable evidence that it’s not just a fantasy made up by old men trying to keep an ancient population in line.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Rarebear I get your point, but you can’t prove that is IS just a fantasy either. It’s a stalemate. I thought you were Jewish anyway?!

Rarebear's avatar

@KNOWITALL You can’t prove a negative. I can’t prove the tooth fairy doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t make the tooth fairy exist. Look, I’m not trying to argue against a Heaven—frankly it doesn’t really matter to me. I’m trying to argue for good critical thinking skills. HC keeps going on about the Ferry Building and belief, and trying to tell me that if I don’t believe in the Ferry Building it’s the same as not believing in Heaven. That’s untrue. I can prove the Ferry Building. I can’t prove Heaven. (If I could, I’d “believe” in it). I only “believe” in things that are verifiable and measurable.

I am Jewish. And an atheist. But it doesn’t matter, in @Hypocrisy_Central universe I’m going to Hell in either case.

ETpro's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Thanks for missing the point. Please do bring forth your entire storehouse. The more the merrier.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Rarebear That definition of yourself blows my mind a little but okay, another time.

Don’t just blame HC, you know I like you and our talks, but according to our religion that is correct. Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.

Rarebear's avatar

@KNOWITALL Did you know that according to the Islam religion you’re going to Hell with me? It’ll be fun. Let’s party!

ragingloli's avatar

@Rarebear
And according to the one true religion, the NORSE religion, you will all go to Hel, because you probably will not die in Battle.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Rarebear I tend to think of life as hell for most of us so wherever I end up, it may be better than this. :)

Rarebear's avatar

@ragingloli I’ve always wondered if the Klingon religion was based upon the Norse religion.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Jewish” is as much an ethnic marker as it is a religious marker these days. Thus being Jewish is not the same as practicing Judaism. That’s how someone can be Jewish and an atheist.

@Rarebear Well, my people did get around. We reached North America 500 years before Columbus, so maybe we made first contact with the Klingons, too!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@SavoirFaire I understand from my research that there are two definitions, one related to religion and one related to the tribes, but thank you. Personally I think of the beautiful religion that’s why I always am shocked a bit by some comments.

glacial's avatar

@Rarebear The Klingons are no lightweights when it comes to religion. They killed their gods for being too meddlesome.

ragingloli's avatar

“With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, ‘On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.’ But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, ‘Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.’

And the heart said… ‘I am alone.’

And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart.

But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom.

‘If we join together, no force can stop us.’

And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts.”

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.

This question is in the General Section. Responses must be helpful and on-topic.

Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther