Who can we blame if Trump wins the general election?

Let’s see. It’s got to be the fault of (a) Johannes Gutenberg, (b) George Washington, (c) P.T. Barnum, or (d) Hallmark cards. Take your pick and we’ll think of a reason.

If those don’t work, its going to be God’s fault.

I like Hallmark cards. That’s an easy target.

IMHO You can chalk it all up to our sitting government who created Trump.

Ok. Sure is.

For the sake of its own profits, Hallmark has shamelessly perpetrated the notion that everybody’s special. Everybody isn’t special. Everybody’s pretty ordinary. But a windbag demagogue like Trump caters to the sense of exceptionalism and entitlement that makes ordinary folks behave so obnoxiously toward one another, fostering the notion that if you’re rude enough you must be speaking the truth (no matter how often you contradict yourself).

If people weren’t told, at every birthday and pseudo-holiday that you have to remember with a card or else you’re a jerk, that they deserve something more than other people, they wouldn’t be so angry at the imaginary injustices they think they’ve suffered and they might be thinking more about working together than about siding with a big, loud-mouthed bully who is transparently out to get whatever he can get, and damn the other fellow.

Howzat?

I’d say blame CNN for creating the 24-hour news cycle that demands that each second of that 24 hours be filled by something, even if it is not worthy of anyone’s attention.

And for promoting fairness bias, in which people or ideas who are plainly wrong or stupid are given equal time and consideration despite being plainly wrong or stupid.

El Niño

The American people for being stupid enough to elect Trump.

The Fonz.

No, stay with me, here.

60 years of anti-intellectualism.

Once upon a time, being smart was something to be proud of. Being intelligent and capable and willing to work were all good qualities.

Then slackers and bullies started beating up on “nerdy” kids in school. The nerds were told to stick up for themselves or deal with it. Given no support. So called “anti-bullying measures” basically rewarded kids for being slackers and assholes. Then they started punishing the nerds for fighting back. Kids who threw the second punch in self defence got in just as much trouble as the instigator.

Fewer and fewer kids are willing to put up with the bullshit. Why work hard and become smart if the idiot bully gets a free ride scholarship and a matching free ride degree for wrestling?

If you just shut up and play dumb eventually you’ll be dumb enough to fit in, and then you won’t get picked on or beaten up.

A few generations of that, and you have your American idiocracy.

It will be the fault of everyone who voted for him and not the fault of anyone who voted for someone other than him.

The assumption that every Bernie voter would be a Hillary supporter if only he weren’t in the race is absurd. He is pulling support from a variety of groups, including people who would otherwise vote third party or not even vote at all. And anyone who would have supported Hillary if Bernie weren’t in the race will still have their chance if she’s the nominee.

In the end, people need to remember that votes don’t belong to anyone but the voter. No candidate owns our votes. Our votes are not owed to them. Our votes are not their property until some other candidate “steals” them away. Our votes belong to us, and we have the right to use them as we see fit.

We all vote politically. For some, that means voting cautiously to prevent what they see as a greater evil. For others, that means voting for the person they think is best regardless of their actual chances of winning. But whatever motivates us, the fact remains that a candidate must win our vote. They do not start with it in their pile.

I think you guys should find a way to pin it on Thomas Jefferson.

I would have gone with Hamilton, but I think he has pop culture invincibility this election cycle.

It can easily be pinned on Thomas Jefferson. I almost mentioned him. But you go right ahead.

@Seek, that was very good. My compliments.

Is there that many die hard right wing red necks in your country that he really has a chance?

As of today, Trump has 13,058,328 votes in the Republican nomination process, out of 28,258,877 GOP total.
Clinton has received 15,065,443 votes while Bernie has received 11,410,098 of the 26,475,541 total votes cast for Democrats.

It’s possible @SQUEEKY2

@Jeruba Not my circus, not my monkeys.

@stanleybmanly has been crafting for some time. Who can we blame?

I think it’s a good guess that the rise of Trump would be unlikely were the prospects better for those who now support him. Now the Donald was always going to get the Bubba vote, but we can’t actually be a nation ignorant enough to justify his ascendancy. There’s gotta be more to it. I suppose the warning was there when Palin was working the circuit. The polite way of stating it seems to be that a significant number of people believe that the one essential qualification for President today is a “talent” for plain speaking. The one accusation missing from criticisms of Trump is that he has a hidden agenda. The thing that is both ironic and very funny is that Trump’s out front proposals amount to the actual unspoken agenda of his party, and he has in effect snatched the covers off things by yelling out loud for the goals his party has been moving toward for decades. The consternation in the GOP is is about Trump’s failure to appreciate that some things SHOULD be hidden.

Last night Trump took the one path that really threatens Clinton. He read the teleprompter, and hit Hillary where it hurts. She & Bill have made millions working the corrupt system (just like everyone else at the political top). And then there’s the accusation and rarely spoken truth that the game is rigged. If Trump had the discipline to stick to that teleprompter, he might give Clinton a run for her money. But what are the chances of a no nothing megalomamiac keeping his mouth shut for a full 5 months? Nope. It’s much more likely that the Donald will gallop toward November spewing Trumpisms with his adoring fans eager to enthrone him BECAUSE. of the crude and tasteless bigotry, misogyny etc, with GOP notables apologizing in his putrid wake.

Edmund Muskie.

Every moment since that wienie liberal had his crying jag on TV has led to the boyish bad-ass bonhomie that is Donald Trump.

Blame? Blame all of those Trump supporters that share one commonality, they are all authoritarian types that need a big bad daddy to make them feel safe. Just wait ‘til your father gets home! lol

Excuse me while I wretch for a moment.

I’m sure they’ll end up blaming the illuminati in the end…

You blame all the people who voted for Trump, of course.

But I am also a little tired of the Sanders supporters saying that they will vote for Trump because they hate Clinton. This obviously is probably media selection bias, but it is really annoying and shows the ignorance of people. If a Sanders supporter wants to vote for the Green Party, or even the Libertarian party (which is against practically everything Sanders supports but whatever, Gary Johnson is a decent guy) that’s fine. But for the love of everything that is holy, please don’t pull the lever for The Donald.

Americans will be blamed as they will have put him into power.

If I were you i’d blame the much lauded “american dream” that’s quickly turned into a hideous nightmare
Get rich or die tryin

Of course I blame the people who voted for Trump. I also blame the Democratic establishment and the corporate media. The party has really cheated/manipulated it’s way into propping up the weaker of the 2 primary candidates instead of promoting both with equal zeal to see who had the better ideas. If Hilary wins she’ll have the highest DISapproval rating of any elected President (and Trump is even worse). All of the polls show Bernie doing much better vs. Trump in a general election.

The only way I’m voting for Clinton is if she’s named Elizabeth Warren as her VP, and makes substantial changes to her economic platform regarding breaking up these massive corporate conglomerates that are STILL too big to fail, changes her position on fossil fuels, and changes her position on Israel to be even-handed in dealing with the radical right wing government there.

I’m still hoping she gets struck by lightning, survives, but takes it as a sign to quit the race.

There is no other choice for placement of blame except on some Republicans who seem to be more concerned about defeating the Democrats than what might be best for the country.

If you can’t see how much better off the nation would be with a President Hillary Clinton than a President Donald Trump, and those two are the choices in front of you, it is your fault if you don’t vote for Hillary.

Her views are the views of the Democratic Party. Her appointees would be Democrats. Her Supreme Court nominees would be Democrats. Her fiscal policy is sound. Her foreign policy is sound. Her environmental policy is sound. Her attitude toward gun control makes sense.

No one has stolen the nomination from Bernie. He just didn’t get enough votes. Is that a reason to not exercise your franchise to vote? I don’t think so.

Logical fallacy: False Dichotomy.

Not all non-Republicans are Democrats, and the Democratic Party doesn’t automatically deserve our vote. They can work for it like everyone else.

@SavoirFaire explained all there is to this issue perfectly above.

Whatever happens, it will be the fault of muslims and Mexican immigrants.

Build the wall!

I think it’s terrible to wish harm on anybody just because you don’t like them.

I haven’t heard President Obama blamed for anything in a while. Maybe we can blame him.

@Seek that’s the big scam. The parties have set things up so they DON’T have to work for it. For the Democrats, Trump has & is doing the work, and frankly the party needn’t spend another dime to sway my vote. President Trump is threat enough. Yeah I’m pissed that “what else can you ” is working again. But sitting it out to “teach them a lesson” is counterproductive. And Bernie will agree.

My vote belongs to me, and me alone. It doesn’t belong to a party. It doesn’t belong to a candidate. It doesn’t belong to anyone but me. My vote will go to the candidate that I feel is the best choice. Not for fear, not for gaming a corrupt system. For ME.

If people want Hillary to win, they should try to convince people that Hillary is the best choice. And to do that they’ll need better than “But Trump!”

But it isn’t about wanting Clinton to win. It’s about seeing to it that Trump is the loser. The reality IS about the lesser evil.

@stanleybmanly – If your concern is about seeing Trump lose rather than voting for someone you support, that says much about the state of politics in this country. I would argue that this is something we need to change. And voting for Clinton is not the way to go about it.

Also, as Clinton has the highest negative numbers of any candidate (short of Trump), I suspect you have been fighting to keep her from winning the Democratic primary. Note: There still is time. Clinton has not won the necessary pledged delegates. So, technically, the only way she becomes the Democratic candidate would be for the superdelegates to vote during the convention. As of June 9th, she has not clinched the nomination.

I’ve watched the lesser evil become less lesser every election. I’m done playing that game.

There’s no disagreement among us that the system sucks. Of course I want it changed. And Bernie has shown us the way. I hope to God that his rumpled old ass is back here in 4 years so I can volunteer and throw money at him again, but folks this is the sucky hand we’ve been dealt in a very fixed game. THIS is not like the usual 2 bought and paid for defectives vying for the best spot at the trough.

@johnpowell You should see what I found. http://www.fluther.com/162932/is-it-too-soon-to-apply-my-im-ready-for-hillary/#quip2782585

I just think it’s funny. Funny as in how I’ve changed since then. No need to pay up. :)

I know you don’t want to vote for HC. however, given your political system @dammitjanetfromvegas, and that the Democrats have apparently decided to go with Hilary, I would say there is a point when Bernie has to step back and support her and the Democratic Party’s choice. It seems to me as an outsider, that point has arrived. To not do so will give fuel to Trump. So if Trump wins and Bernie didn’t encourage his supporters to vote for Hilary, in my opinion, he will have contributed to that win.

@Earthbound_Misfit – Bernie’s meeting with Obama, and his “I’m going to work with Hillary Clinton to stop Trump” resulted in me making my first donation to Jill Stein. I don’t know a single person who will vote for Clinton. It doesn’t matter if Sanders begs his supporters to do so. It’s not about him. We support him because he was our last chance to fix/save the Democratic party. They f*cked up, and now we need a fighter. If it’s not Bernie, then we’ll go elsewhere.

Keep in mind that Hillary Clinton is the worst possible candidate to run at a time when the population has shifted left. To run a Republican as a Democrat has rendered the party irrelevant to liberals/progressives/the left.

@marinelife “If you can’t see how much better off the nation would be with a President Hillary Clinton than a President Donald Trump, and those two are the choices in front of you, it is your fault if you don’t vote for Hillary.”

But they’re not the (only) two choices in front of us. So like @Seek said, this is a false dichotomy. Yes, I prefer Clinton to Trump. You know who else I prefer to Trump? Johnson, Sanders, and Stein. So the real question is whether I prefer any of Johnson, Sanders, or Stein to Clinton. Because they are also options.

“Her views are the views of the Democratic Party. Her appointees would be Democrats. Her Supreme Court nominees would be Democrats.”

Cool story. Too bad I’m not a Democrat. And neither, I suspect, are a lot of Sanders supporters. And the ones who are Democrats? Well, I’m pretty sure they have the right to decide what kind of Democrat they prefer. (That’s the trouble with having a big tent: you can’t fit everyone at one table.)

“Her fiscal policy is sound. Her foreign policy is sound. Her environmental policy is sound. Her attitude toward gun control makes sense.”

Even assuming that everyone would agree with this, “sound” is still a rather low bar to clear. “Sound” doesn’t mean “right.” It means “reliable,” “competent,” or “acceptable.” It suggests that her policies are not obviously wrong, not that they are definitely right.

“No one has stolen the nomination from Bernie. He just didn’t get enough votes. Is that a reason to not exercise your franchise to vote? I don’t think so.”

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the only option is not voting. Again, there are candidates other than Clinton and Trump.

Well I guess if she’s the Democratic nomination, and Democratic supporters won’t vote for HC, then we’ll all have to live with Trump. What other outcome can there be? Maybe I don’t understand the system (entirely possible), but if you have a choice between Trump or Clinton, who else can you vote for? Can Bernie stand as an independent? Is that possible in your system? And having read @SF’s response, how likely is it that someone outside of the two major parties could be elected?

I can write in my great aunt Edna if I want to.

@Seek – I’m voting Edna!

If you’re just voting for a third party candidate (like Stein) because you’re miffed that Bernie isn’t going to be the Democratic nominee then, to be frank, you are wasting your vote. If you think the Democratic party is FUBAR, but aren’t doing anything, other than casting a single vote, to help build up a legitimate alternative then you’re wasting your vote. If you’re willing to really get involved and help build your third party into a serious political force then more power to you. If not then parties like the Green Party will never accomplish anything more than to linger on the fringes as they’ve always done.

” ...the Democrats have apparently decided to go with Hilary”. False. Think about this, and this, and this, and this, just for laughs.Also this and this.
So, maybe not so much that people chose Clinton as that millions of votes for Bernie were erased, obliterated or blocked from happening to begin with. And then a media blackout is keeping the majority of the populace from hearing about it. And a steady decline in voter participation due to a feeling of helplessness against a system which they feel they have no say in, and numerous other Bernie supporters falling into compliance with what the owners of the media with a vested interest in the status quo want and rallying behind HC. Buncha quitters, I despise them the most.
Of course, I could be wrong.

I too have heard stories of fraud and “tricky” voting machines. My fellow Sanderites are particularly suspicious that Bernie didn’t take San Francisco and that Hillary’s margin here was exactly as that for the entire state.

I would like to know why it is assumed that my Sanders vote would automatically go to Clinton.

I supported Clinton in 2008 because I thought she was the best candidate at the time. When she lost to Obama my second choice was McCain. I did not think Obama was the person for the job. I voted for McCain.

I vote for the person, not the party. Using scare tactics to try to persuade me to vote your way is a form of bullying. I’ve done it to my Republican friends and I’m ashamed of myself. I’m now in their shoes and ashamed of some of my friends.

“I supported Clinton in 2008 because I thought she was the best candidate at the time. When she lost to Obama my second choice was McCain. I did not think Obama was the person for the job. I voted for McCain.”

Huh? Sorry, but I’m having trouble parsing how one could be for Hillary, and then favor someone vastly different from her over someone who’s near identical in every way that matters.

Sorry. I don’t need to explain myself.

But if I must, I felt Obama was not prepared for the job. McCain works well with both sides and had the experience I felt was important at the time. I also felt Obama was pushed heavily by the media, just as Clinton and Trump have this election cycle.

I’m disgusted with the entire process at this point.

Two questions….
1. If Hillary and Bernie both run, will either have enough votes to defeat Trump?
2. If either Hillary or Bernie drop out, how many of their votes would go to the other candidate?

(I don’t know how to make those sorts of projection, and my thoughts on the election depend on it.)

Ignoring numbers….
I don’t think it would be anyone’s fault Trump gets elected, except for those that voted Trump in, but I do think voting requires a certain amount of strategy… And I don’t know the voter breakdown well enough to know whether Hillary and/or Bernie could defeat Trump in a 3-candidate race.

However, I don’t know that I can believe that all Bernie supporters wouldn’t vote for Hillary if he wasn’t running (or vice versa). I know Hillary and Bernie do differ ideologically, and I know Hillary has become people’s favorite emblem of the hated political system, but Hillary and Bernie are a heck of a lot closer to each other than either is to Trump… That’s why they’ve both been running for the Democratic ticket. They believe their demographic overlaps.

It’s clear the Republican leaders are already trying to consolidate a conservative vote around Trump, despite their initial horror at having him as their candidate. Whether they’ll be successful, and how many votes they’ll actually get, I don’t know. But it makes me nervous.

I don’t want Bernie to drop out now (it’s not the general election yet)... but if his supporting Hillary or his running independently would mean the difference between Hillary winning or Hillary losing to Trump, I would want him to step out of the general election and support Hillary. I’d want the same of her if he were the Democratic candidate. It would be no one’s fault if that didn’t happen—but I think it would be poor strategy.

I blame more than one thing.

One, the rich getting richer and masses of people having a harder time financially. At least a portion of Trump and Sanders supporters are very motivated by this.

Two, the media. Trump was covered constantly. The media also was incredibly unfair to candidates like Jeb Bush and Kasich, and probably some others who I don’t remember, because I don’t vote in the Republican primary.

Three, people who are more isolationist oriented.

Four, people who are tired of the religious right and Koch controlling the Republican Party.

Maybe we can blame the fact that Trump didn’t delete his twitter account

Here are some possibly relevant poll numbers that attempt to look at why Sanders polls better against Trump than Clinton. Not sure how accurate they are. It’s an attempt at figuring out who the people are who are Sanders-not-Clinton.

Those polls don’t matter at this point. Sanders lost. We have who we have.

^ They certainly matter to Clinton (take a look at the link). This is what all of the tiptoeing and cautious orchestration is all about.

It is also a very important issue for you. You seem to be confused about why people won’t be voting for Clinton. And since you supposedly don’t want Trump, it probably makes sense to figure out who needs convincing to vote for Clinton and how to go about it.

I know where I stand. But Clinton supporters are trying to figure this out. I provided this data for you. If you don’t find it helpful – or choose to just really hope Trump will magically lose – then ignore it. I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the article. But I provided it for those Clinton-bubble people who may be still trying to provide a strategy to beat Trump.

I think @DoNotKnowMuch just nailed it.

If Trump is the next President of the United States we will have those people who “just really hope Trump will magically lose” to blame.

I know why people aren’t voting for Clinton. I know that many people don’t like her. There are people on this forum who have unapologetically called her a “bitch” and “cunt” as well as other names. No way they will vote for her. As I said above, I am imploring those people to vote for Stein or even Johnson. Not to vote FOR Trump.

If Republicans all focus their voting on Trump but Democrats are all over the map with voting for various candidates, Trump will win. Philosophies, feelings, rights, whatever are all wonderful things but the bottom line is if each party does not pick one candidate and vote for that one, the other party will win (remember when Ralph Nader ran for President and pulled votes from the Democrat?).

Conversely, @jca, if either party puts too much faith in the other party being too splintered to win…

That question looks too much like a Möbius strip if I finish, so I stop there. You get the idea.

The only people who are to blame are the people voting for Trump.

@dammitjanetfromvegas I wish it were that simple, but it isn’t. In Canada, we just got out of a fifteen-year stint by a (by our standards) ultra right-wing conservative Prime Minister. His rule has had massive repercussions on our economy, our environment, our civil rights record, and our reputation on the global stage. It will take a very long time for us to recover from that, if we ever do. Environmentally, some of the damage is irreversible.

How does this happen in a relatively liberal country? It happens because of vote-splitting. With one conservative party and several liberal parties to choose from, the will of the people is very easily subverted. In the last election, there was a bigger push than ever before for people to think seriously about the consequences of their (small L) liberal vote, and cast it where it might do the most good – or the least harm, even if it meant not being able to vote for their preferred candidate. Without that effort, we might still have Harper as our PM.

Without that effort, you might have Trump as your president.

The Republicans didn’t like Trump and they were very vocal and clear about it. However, they seem to have little choice but to put all their weight behind him so the majority of Republicans will be voting for him. If Dems don’t do the same with one candidate, we’ll have Trump being victorious.

@dammitjanetfromvegas “But if I must, I felt Obama was not prepared for the job. McCain works well with both sides and had the experience I felt was important at the time. I also felt Obama was pushed heavily by the media, just as Clinton and Trump have this election cycle.”

See, the thing is that I’m having difficulty understanding how any informed voter could support one candidate and then, when that candidate fails to secure the nomination, votes for the candidate who’s policies are starkly opposed to the policies of the candidate they supported, rather than voting for the candidate who policies closely matched them.

@Darth_Algar. It’s my vote to do with as I choose. You don’t need to understand and I don’t have to explain myself. I’m very informed about the people I choose. I don’t need a lecture from anyone.

Certainly you don’t have to, nor can I do anything other than ask. But when you offer up information on a public forum don’t get huffy when someone questions you about it. Though your reluctance might suggest that, perhaps, you don’t actually have a reasonable answer. One might even get the impression that you’re the kind of voter who votes for the personality rather than the policies.

I mean when my preferred candidate isn’t an option I vote for the candidate who most closely aligns with them in terms of policy, but that’s just me. You are certainly free to cast your vote however you choose.

It’s starting to look like this isn’t going to be a humor thread.

I don’t question people about their votes and I totally get that everyone has the right to vote for who they want (whoever or whomever? Not sure). However, the question was who can we blame if Trump wins, and I think I answered it by saying the people in each party have to pick one candidate and throw their votes to that one candidate. If not, the party with the most vote for one candidate will be the winner.

How about I’ve had a terrible fucking week Darth and I don’t have the patience.

Thank you @Jeruba and the others who provided humor. I’m out.

Well, @Jeruba, it’s been a messed up week all around.

@dammitjanetfromvegas

I frankly don’t give a shit about your week. Answer or don’t. Your choice and it doesn’t really matter one way or the other. But bear in mind that you’re choosing to participate in an open forum. Anything you post is subject to replies, even questioning, from others. Do not post then get pissy when someone further inquires about what you posted.

It seems to me that it should be possible to express just about any view without ever being rude or attacking anyone.

Wow, @Darth_Algar – Who’s getting pissy here?

@Darth_Algar: “I frankly don’t give a shit about your week.”

compassion

Well, okay, that happened…

frantically trying to think up something humorous
Yeah, I’m sorry, don’t have anything remotely funny to say

Are we allowed to blame the government of New York that spawned the worm?
All the Big Apple legislators that were more worried about someone drinking a Big Gulp than The Donald, ”a businessman who relied heavily on government largesse”?

Here’s the model of the Trump worm.
No, wait, let’s go for broke!

Made me LOL

Sashimi wore it better.

with a natural color!

Sashimi will ALWAYS wear it better

Source, @Magical_Muggle?

Who wears salmon better than the Donald?

DBAD