If you had a daughter, say, in the 4th grade, and another kid was physically bullying her, would you encourage your daughter to physically fight back?

No, but then, I wouldn’t encourage my son to do so, either. And yes, I think the advice should be consistent and not vary according to gender. These are stereotypes that we should want to leave in the past, not propagate into the future.

There are two possible outcomes to this:
1. The punch makes the bully back off, because he is actually a coward picking on weaker kids.
2. It will only encourage him to escalate his level of bullying, including attempts at homicide. Yes, I have read of an account where the bully tried to kill his target after he fought back.

My money is on 2, because the bully has a tough guy image to protect in the eyes of his peers, especially when you are dealing with a group of multiple bullies.

If you want the bullying to end by employing violence, you have to make sure the bully does not get up again. Ever.

To quote Elim Garak:
“And it may be a very messy, very… bloody business. Are you prepared for that?”

Yes.

#teachkidskarate

#teachkidstheartofassassination

@Sneki9, what if she was 16 and another 16 year old male was physically bullying her? At this point he’s most likely much bigger and stronger, but..she’s been taught to fight violence with violence. Personally, I’d sue his ass for assault.

Thanks to the zero tolerance policy in place across basically all schools in the US, getting your kid to fight back is a sure ticket to getting her expelled.

@Dutchess_III Kick in the nuts. Pfft.
What matters is the technique, not physical “advantages”. Also, running fast helps too, as well as long fingernails. Or just being a plain old vengeful sadist. No one dares attacking an insane creep that will fuck you over if you piss them off.
And by the way, I suggest doing this only if you’re defending yourself, not to attack others without any reason. Then you deserve this treatment.

This question from yesterday, when you were ABSENT WITHOUT PERMISSION ;) is what prompted my question @cinnamonk.

You could take a page from the Mafia’s handbook and stash his family’s pet’s severed head in his locker.

^ Or put a dead horse’s head in their bed….

Wow, what a lousy situation to be in. If I were in that person’s shoes, rather than teach my son to fight back, I would talk to the principal and ask them to remedy the situation. If my kid continued to be bullied after that I would probably pull him out of school citing safety concerns. No kid should have to worry for their safety at school.

@Sneki95 we covered women fighting men in another thread. I most likely wouldn’t end well for the woman. Scratching won’t do shit but piss him off. Men can run faster than women. If you can get a shot at the nuts that’s good. But unless she is an accomplished martial arts expert, her chances of winning are very low.

Fighting back would probably not make things better for the kid being bullied, girl or boy. Better to try to find a non-violent solution.

As @rojo said in that thread, “They always catch the one who retaliates, not the one who provokes it.”

Any child of mine, boy or girl, will be raised to defend themselves. No daughter of mine will be a doormat.

@Darth_Algar That was cool.

@Dutchess_III Brothers. The more, the better. Every girl needs a brother, just in cases like this. He may fuck over a girl, but he can’t deal with a gang of angry brothers. By brothers I mean male cousins too.

Like what @Darth_Algar said, my kids will be taught self-defense.
They’d be taught to only use it in certain situations. If someone very lightly shoves them, they shouldn’t react by knocking that person out. If the person was bullying them in a way that hurt them, then they should do what they can to defend themselves, only AFTER they have talked to a teacher/adult before, and only if they aren’t in immediate danger. Emotional bullying shouldn’t be combated with punching or hitting either. Physical and sexual bullying should be
If someone shoved my kid down to the ground and only did that and nothing else, I’d want them to try and get out of that situation and talk to ta teacher first. If it continues, then they can get physical back. If they are alone and a kid is beating on them, they definitely should be getting physical. It all depends on the situation

Even in high school you guys, even if it means the girl is liable to get the shit beat out of her if she hits a guy back?

Hahahaha, my daughter would need no encouragement because any would be bully would be toast, same goes for my son. They’re both just like me, very laid back, totally against violence, but take no shit…the only way to be.

@Dutchess

Yes, even in high school. I repeat, no daughter of mine will be a doormat.

This poor girl was beaten to death by a gang of bullies in the bathroom at her high school last year. http://wnep.com/2016/05/09/3-girls-charged-after-teen-beaten-to-death-in-school-bathroom/

Self defense is a great skill that unfortunately doesn’t mean much when it’s one-against-three.

But a hospital patient is OK @Darth_Algar?

oooooh my drama sense is tingling!

“Don’t ever start a fight, but don’t run from one, either”

Even King Arthur knew that running away is the best option.

@Dutchess_III

I’d rather my child end up hospitalized defending themselves then hospitalized cowering.

I think that physical protection is an unfortunate requisite in this world. Everyone should at least be taught to put up a fight, if necessary. Most animals will try to defend themselves, when cornered. Being bullied is similar to being cornered, because usually the person being bullied cannot control the situation.

If it were up to me, nobody would ever have to fight. But that isn’t realistic.

Teaching anyone to defend themselves is only a small percentage of the lesson though. Most importantly, the person needs to know that violence is a last resort, and when it is applicable, or unwarranted.

Moving away from the danger is wiser than stupidly attacking someone who is bigger and stronger and will simply have the savage satisfaction of beating the shit out of someone smaller than them, just so her father can be proud of her. I don’t know if you have a daughter @Darth_Algar, but if you do I can promise you that she has, or will, be faced with violent aggression by men more than once in her life. She would be wise to try to avoid it in the first place, or, if she’s caught, try to talk her way out. I was in real danger of being raped twice. I managed to talk my way out both times. I was lucky. Putting up a physical fight is a good way to get raped anyway, and even killed.

@Darth_Algar . That is pretty harsh… If there’s no other way around it, fight ,and fight hard. But de-escalating, or removing yourself from the situation, are the better options. And the mark of a smarter person. Restraint is not to be confused with weakness.

That being said, I respect your right to raise your child, your way…

[removed]

Oh shit, I thought we were talking about being bullied in elementary school. When the hell did we jump to rape here?

I was bullied in 3rd grade. We were unsupervised during lunch time and I was on crutches with a broken leg. The boys kept stealing my crutches. Nobody seem to notice or care even though I protested loudly, so I hopped over to where the bully with the crutches had them, grabbed him by the hair close to the scalp, braced my wrist against his head, and pulled backwards with my knuckles. Apparently it hurt. He started yelping, but not loud enough to suit my several years of being bullied, so I kept at it until I had him on his back screaming, “Uncle”!

But that was about 50 years ago, and boys weren’t allowed to hit girls. They pretty much gave me a wide berth after that.

Twenty years ago when my twins were in fourth grade, they also had a bully, but it never happened on school grounds. It happened while they were waiting at the bus stop. They started to get stomachaches and nightmares because of dreading going to school. The school district’s solution was to have me drive them to school or babysit the bus stop myself. “It’s not OUR problem, Lady!”

I needed to work, and couldn’t go babysit the bus stop or drive them to school. Someone suggested I call the sheriff. And wonder of wonders, the boy was a sheriff’s kid. Apparently that sheriff was very unpopular around the station, so they assigned HIM to go babysit his son at the bus stop. The officer was really chuckling when I hung up. The next day, even though nobody babysat the bus stop, there were absolutely no problems, and we had no more trouble with THAT bully, anyway.

If I had a problem as asked in the question, first I’d make every effort to go through the usual chain of command. I’d also enroll my girls in a martial arts class, as well as coach them on how to de-escalate tense situations. If all else failed, I’d look into transferring them into a different school, or homeschool, and as a last resort, I’d inform the administration that I had given my child permission to defend herself if attacked, and that I would hold THEM responsible. That last communication would be notarized and sent special delivery.

If I had to, I’d hire an attorney.

Here @Darth_Algar.

I always encouraged my kids to defend themselves if they couldn’t avoid the person, but only after actually reporting it to the teacher and if that didn’t work, then I would march into the principals office and insist they either do something about the other child or I will go over their head. Only once did it have to go as far as the principal and it was immediately resolved and my kid was left alone.
Principals and teachers often side with the good student that never gets into any trouble. My kids never got into trouble so it wasn’t an issue. I learned this lesson back in High School. Even learned that a student with great grades all their life could actually have pull against a teacher with a horrible track record. My school dean threatened my teacher when I went to her to report that the teacher hated all the students and was failing everyone. She told me there have been complaints from students before but none with grades like mine. So she finally had something to fight the union with. Long story short. He suddenly passed everyone. He was still a horrible teacher, and the union kept him on because he was near retirement, but he stopped doing pop quizzes on material he never assigned or taught.

Some teachers are assholes. In college we a math instructor who gave us tests one level above what we had recently learned. I think he figured if we had any brains at all we should be able to extrapolate. He fucked up my 4.0 by giving me a C. I did complain to the dean, and he sided with me, because he had several complaints lodged against that teacher. I don’t know what happened to him. But I graduated with a 3.75.

@Dutchess_III

Nope, no mention of rape there ether. We’re still talking about kids being bullied in school there in that post.

This is in social, @Darth_Algar. It can go anywhere it wants to. It’s called a “discussion.” I had a teacher hit on me (sexually) in HS. Should we talk about that instead? Would that fit the criteria you’ve set forth for people to answer my question.

Your question’s been answered. Sorry you don’t like all the answers you’ve gotten, but I will not engage in a game of shifting goalposts.

I didn’t mind the answers. This conversation has shifted. I responded to @Pandora‘s post. If you don’t like it unfollow it.

No, a brief side conversation between you and @Pandora shifted. You then used that brief side conversation as an excuse to inject a premise wildly different from the topic being discussed (and, for that matter, even wildly different from your conversation with @Pandora). There’s a degree of fluidity in Social, yes, but that’s not carte blanche to suddenly jump to different, unconnected tracks.

Quite responding Darth!!! You’ll feel so much calmer.

No surer sign that someone has ran out of argument…

I didn’t realize we were arguing. You’re just obsessing over this, aren’t you!

^^^ @Dutchess_III he has to have the last word. Stop posting, then he’ll say something, and it will die. ;)

Ever notice that people who insist that the other person “has to have the last word” always resort to personal swipes?

And yes @Dutchess_III, we are arguing. We are presenting opposing viewpoints on a particular subject. That is an argument.

Ever notice that people who need to have the last word can’t let anyone else have it?