What does Zionism mean to you?

Why?

I’m gunna be iron like a lion in zion
Iron lion zion…

@MollyMcGuire Because I am curious how people feel about Zionism.

I know I am not an expert, but I tend to wonder if in hindsight it were not a mistake to create a nation of Israel in that location after the Second World War, where it would lead to wars and so much suffering and intractable political problems.

My instinct is that it were best if Israel continued but Palestine were allowed to be Palestine, so ceding Golan Heights and other land to Palestine.

But I also have an even stronger instinct and impressions from what I have studied, that religious and cultural conflict in the region is an extremely difficult and pervasive problem (extending also to Kurds, Sufis, Christians, Sunis vs. Shiites and on and on and on) that may have no answer within the existing cultures and situations that are there. Those cultures have been in a state of religious war for thousands of years, and are built into their religions and cultures. Add to that the oil resources and modern weapons and economic and political situations (including corporate intervention and corporate news spin and foreign-aided/created insurgents and terrorists), and it seems like a situation that will continue to be full of unstable violence, wars and suffering, until something (or many things) fundamental changes.

All for it.

To me it’s empowering Jewish people in Isreal.

I’m also all for Israel. They need their own nation.

@snowberry Why does Israel need their own nation?

It means that a Jewish state was carved out of Palestine following the Holocaust and the expulsion of Jews from Europe. It means that many Palestinians were removed from their homes. It means that neither the Palestinians nor Israelis are leaving, so they either learn to live together or are going to continue to fight for hundreds of years.

Its the last human colony in the Matrix.

Another organized religion. A plague on humanity…

The domination of all banks by Zions.

@kritiper I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that.

To me it means the Jews who believe the land that we call Israel is rightfully theirs, specifically because it was Jewish land previously in history. Zionists would say it was Jewish land first.

I’m not a Zionist. I don’t think cultures/people necessarily get land, because they were there previously. If we believe that then why not give the US land back to the Native Americans?

I do think Israel is a legitimate country, because of the UN decision to create it, and even before that decision Jews were already buying land in Israel, but ugh what a flipping hit bed of hate Israel has to deal with being located where it is located. I want my people to live more than I want the land. I do very much care about preserving the holy sites, like I do around the world for all religions, and I also like having a place I can go if the Nazis start coming again, but such a small piece of land full of such conflict.

What if the Jews had been given part of Wyoming or South Carolina, or pick a state. Would they have prospered in the same way? Would the Middle East be different? Would we have seen all the inventions that we have from citizens of Israel?

I’m very conflicted on the topic, but I do support Israel, because it does exist, and it’s not moving to land in another country at this point, but I’m not a Zionist.

Zionism is the movement dedicated to the establishment and advancement of a Jewish state.

@Caravanfan We have some banks in our area. ZIONS BANK.

@MrGrimm888 How is Zionism an ‘organized religion’?

@kritiper Zion’s bank was started in Utah, by Mormons. It refers to the land the Mormons called the Utah area when they settled in Utah. They also call anyone not Mormon “gentiles”. It’s the only place in the world a Jew can go and be called a gentile. It’s crazy, but true.

Zionism is an ideal ruined by the reality of Israel.

@Yellowdog . How is it not?..

It justifies horrific treatment of people who lived in that land before 1948. It’s just more nationalistic bullshit.

That’s the trouble. It’s in the execution of the mandate which has delivered a colonial power in an age where colonialism is distinctly unfashionable and the embarrassing results demote the nation responsible to pariah status in world affairs.

IMO. Israel is a state that should be brought up on dozens of human rights violations, and ear crimes. It’s really sad, that a people who have been oppressed so much throughout history, to oppress another people. It’s even more sad, that the US supports them.
After the way they’ve treated Palestine, I could care less of some Islamic nation nuked them, like Iran has always talked about.

Just because they look more like Americans, and have some cultural similarities, doesn’t mean that they are any better than the other countries in the Middle East. That region will be in constant conflict until they stop being religious. Their religions have cost millions of lives throughout history. Those religions will continue to destroy life, and possibly lead to world war, and/or cataclysm.

Honestly, putting Israel where it is, was a global disaster. It set the table for millenias of violence, and unrest. The Middle East was already a piranha tank. Adding Israel, was like throwing in sharks.

Perhaps, one day, the world will hold Israel accountable for their actions. Probably not though…

Probably, the Jews should have been given half of Germany. It was Nazi Germany, and continuing antisemitism across Europe and in the world that helped Israel get UN approval. I’ve always believe the Europeans were happy to create a place far away in the Middle East for the Jews to settle in. Then they wouldn’t have to kill them anymore. They were down to only a few million across Europe having been so successful in the killing machine. Encouraging emigration would get rid of another chunk if the Jewish population. Sure, some of the votes for Israel were out of sympathy and understanding, but I believe a portion of the votes were part of a solution to get rid of Jews without literally casting them out.

So much anti-Israel on this Q, it’s troubling. I dint agree with everything Israel does, but to make it like the Palestinians are innocent and oppressed and it’s just a simple equation is just inaccurate. The Palestinians have the entire Middle East that could have let them in and let them prosper. The Israelis don’t prevent them from going to other countries.

The Palestinians could have maybe lived equally in the one democracy in the Middle East if the whole thing had gone down differently. I do agree that it’s awful that Palestinians don’t have full equal rights as Israeli citizens, but some even reject taking citizenship when they could. It’s very complicated.

Well. The Jews are a favorite of humanity to hate. I think they would be a “problem,” anywhere. They just so happen to be in the worst possible place…

To clarify, I have zero issues with Jewish people. I do hate Israel, for their atrocities.

^^That’s one reason we want a Jewish state, is that we are hated throughout history, most often just for existing.

As an American it’s a conflict for me, because I think the best country is a secular government and diverse country.

I fully understand the reasoning behind wanting their own state. I fully disagree with how they hurt so many people.

How many post-WW2 German Jewish people went to Israel, and how many went to other countries?

It’s horribly ironic that the people of the most enlightened Abrahamic religion, have received so much hatred.

^^Good question. A lot of Jews went to the Americas during the war and after. A decent portion were already living on the American continent before WWII. I don’t know how many Jewish people went to Israel immediately after it was created. I think Europe only had 3 million Jews left after the war. Or, maybe that’s just Western Europe?? Not sure.

My family came to America before the war from Eastern Europe.

I found this article which talks about the emigration out of Europe and touches on israel’s numbers.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/%3famp=1

We are such a small number. It’s amazing how we are focused on so much. I guess the small number makes us vulnerable and easy scape goats.

Am I wrong? I feel like I have heard people say the Jews killed Jesus…

@MrGrimm888 That’s a rather complicated story, depends on who you ask. To me, the answer is that yes, they played a major part in his death.

First let’s define Pharisee:
a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.

Knowing that, read this:
The truth is that the Pharisees did hate Jesus, and He rightly isn’t known for showing them a great deal of grace. He called them out for their hypocrisy. He exposed their inner tombs. But the hatred they felt for Him wasn’t mere sour grapes at His approval rating, nor was it as principled as mere evil versus good. It was rather more craven. They hated Jesus not because He called them names, but because He threatened their security, prestige and income. He was going to ruin everything they had worked so hard for, and getting everybody killed.

The Pharisees had brokered a rather uneasy peace between the powers of Rome, and their own people. Rome, you will remember, had no great desire to remake the cultures their army had conquered. Any nation willing to submit to Rome’s military and political authority could go on about their business. Israel, however, wasn’t a nation given to separating their political and theological loyalties. Thus the rise of the Zealots, that sect who, in the spirit of the Maccabees, sought to remove Rome’s yoke. Thus the uprising in 70 AD that led to the utter destruction of Jerusalem. It was the Pharisees who kept their finger in that dyke. And they made a decent living doing it. It was Jesus, however, who kept poking at the levee.

His popularity, His talk of the kingdom, His affirmation that He was in fact the Messiah, this threatened the uneasy peace. If the people got behind Joseph’s son, Rome would awake, and start killing Jews indiscriminately, not bothering to distinguish the Pharisee party from the Jesus party. This is how Caiaphas came, in a moment of treachery, to speak a gospel truth when he said, “nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish” (John 11:50). The Pharisees hated Jesus not because He made them look bad with the people, but because He made them all look bad to Rome.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/why-did-pharisees-hate-jesus-so-much/

Matthew, the best-known gospel, describes the unfair trial of Jesus arranged and presided over by the Jewish high priest who scours the land to find anybody who would testify against Jesus. Eventually, the high priest concludes that Jesus is guilty of blasphemy and asks the Jewish council what the penalty should be. “They answered, ‘He deserves death.’ Then they spat in his face and struck him” (Matthew 26:57–68). Matthew’s description of Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross (referred to by Christians as Jesus’ “passion”) has becomes the basis for many books, plays, and musical compositions over the years, and is prominent in Christian liturgy, particularly for Easter.

All four gospels suggest either implicitly or explicitly that because the Jews were not allowed to punish other Jews who were guilty of blasphemy, they had to prevail on the reluctant Romans to kill Jesus. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, is described as basically sympathetic to Jesus but unable to withstand the pressure from the Jews who demanded Jesus’ execution. This idea is expressed most clearly in the gospel of John: “Pilate said, ‘Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.’ The Jews replied, ‘We are not permitted to put anyone to death’” (18:31).

In the most controversial verse in all the passion narratives, the assembled members of the Jewish community tell Pilate, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). This is the source for the Christian belief that later generations of Jews are also guilty of deicide, the crime of killing God.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-killed-jesus/

This is why they are the Chosen People regardless (to many Christians):
The notion of Jews being chosen has its root in several biblical verses. One of the most prominent, Deuteronomy 7:6, says, “For you are a people consecrated to Adonai your God: of all the peoples on earth Adonai your God chose you to be God’s treasured people.” The next two verses provide the reason for this choice. God did not choose the Israelites because of their numbers; rather, God chose the Israelites and freed them from slavery because God loved them and because God had made promises to their ancestors, the biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-the-jewish-people-chosen/

^First off, thank you for the effort you put into your response. Very informative to a person who is ignorant of the details of the religions he despises.

So. What was the motivation, for the Jews, to kill Jesus?

And why would the world blame people who had nothing to do with it? Like ALL currently alive Jews?..

I guess I just don’t understand being mad at Jews, for being Jews. As long as they aren’t leaving pamphlets on my door, to try to convert me, I could care less about any religious sect….

@MrGrimm888 I’m not bashing you here, dude. You have been given one of the most detailed, explanatory, easy-to-understand and comprehensive and concise answers I’ve ever seen on Fluther, and with lots of detail and links to more information.

Yet you STILL ask “so what was the motivation for Jews to kill Jesus.”

I know you despise the religions involved, yet its kind of insulting that you reply to such a thorough and well-written response as if it didn’t make sense or didn’t answer the question.

I guess it would suffice to say it was all political.

@MrGrimm888 “I could care less of some Islamic nation nuked them, like Iran has always talked about.”

You would seriously be okay with the murder of 8.5 million people? Most of them just trying to live their lives in peace?

^Uugh…. I guess not… I know not… I wish they’d all get along… But it will never happen.

@Yellowdog . I’m very sorry that you were offended by my post. I was trying to be genuine, and I really was thankful for your effort. It was indeed, a well done, and extensive post.

I’m sorry again, but I don’t think I fully understood the motivation for killing Jesus. Was it kind of like, he’s on the other team? I understood your well composed entry. I just had more questions. I’m trying to understand the story…

There is no direct evidence that Jesus ever really existed. Just sayin’. So the whole “Jews killing Jesus” thing is just an excuse for antisemites to persecute Jews.

I just brought it up, because I have heard it before.

It seems like a case of hating ALL Asian people, because a few did something “bad.”

Well, it was @KNOWITALL ‘s post. Not mine.

@Caravanfan I am finding, especially since being on Fluther, that there are a lot of people who say they would like to see every last one of someone they disagree with totally annihilated, persecuted, etc. often while displaying very little knowledge of the subject matter in relation to the hate they espouse. I do not know if they REALLY wish the things they say, but they insist that they do,

Antisemitism has been with us since before the Romans, but the official position of most Christian denominations since at least the early 1800s has been that the Romans executed Christ. There have been Roman Catholic and a few obscure Protestant sects that have blamed the Jews but nothing since the 1960s / Vatican II era

Aw shit. It was @KNOWITALL . First mistake of the year…

Well, the compliment well deserved for @KNOWITALL Thanks @MrGrimm888

@Yellowdog . You constantly miss the point. Nobody is saying disagreement should be punished. It’s when the disagreement is toxic to society, or could get people hurt.

The Trump administration, and it’s backers, are hurting people. We aren’t mad because the two groups prefer coleslaw, over potato salad. You’re hurting people. REAL people. I will never stop calling you out for it.

You like Snickers? I like Almond Joy? That difference doesn’t hurt people. Stop playing the victim. Your party, with your support, is hurting people. What exactly is OK, or great, about that?

I have a recommendation for conservatives. Learn Spanish, and get accustomed to multiracial grandkids. If you want to be part of the future, you will adapt. If you want to cling to some Brady Bunch bullshit fake reality, you will go the way of the Dodo bird, and with much appreciation from those of us who aren’t bigots, and who WILL Make America Great Again…

@Yellowdog ” that there are a lot of people who say they would like to see every last one of someone they disagree with totally annihilated, persecuted, etc. often while displaying very little knowledge of the subject matter in relation to the hate they espouse. ”

Words matter. And it’s one reason why I asked this question.

@MrGrimm888 Wow, missed a lot in a short time.

First, thanks, I tried to give you as much information as you gave me on immigration, plus this interests me greatly.

Second, Jesus came to change the old laws and there was a lot of resistance to that. It has to do with the definition of Pharisee I posted above and would take awhile to explain the nuances of that time. But the ‘old regime’ had control of the churches and were over charging the poor for sacrifices in the temple, etc… Jesus got upset and overturned the tables in a very dramatic act, to show them they were greedy and spoke for God telling them they were wrong.

“And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.” (John 2:13–16)

So that pissed them off and they came after him. And it wasn’t just that, he was winning people over, performing miracles, he became dangerous to their greed and power. So they ended him, as he knew they would as it was pre-ordained.

And now we come to modern prejudices against the Jewish people. Because of my past, I can tell you that many old school folks that most of us would consider ‘White Pride’ proponents, consider Jews greedy and bad. Some feel the Jewish run Hollywood and all that decadence & money, and jewelry stores, etc….and take Jesus actions and words to mean Jews were bad. At least that’s what I was told, no matter how wrong, they truly believe it.

Wiki:
Elaborating on Fein’s definition, Dietz Bering of the University of Cologne writes that, to antisemites, “Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their ‘host societies’ or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the anti-Semites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character.”[38]

For these reasons:
religious (Jew as Christ-killer),
economic (Jew as banker, usurer, money-obsessed),
social (Jew as social inferior, “pushy,” vulgar, therefore excluded from personal contact),
racist (Jews as an inferior “race”),
ideological (Jews regarded as subversive or revolutionary),
cultural (Jews regarded as undermining the moral and structural fiber of civilization).

As I posted earlier, some feel the Jewish people accepted the stain on their blood for eternity for killing Jesus.
In the most controversial verse in all the passion narratives, the assembled members of the Jewish community tell Pilate, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25).

“and our children? ” That’s…. That’s fucking bullshit…IMO…

@MrGrimm888 Of course I agree with you.

Where’s @JLeslie, I’d like her pov on this since she may have a different perspective.

@Caravan You can’t discount half the populations opinions, even if you disagree. Same thing with politics here in the US. I wish you could understand the utter certainty of the christian right that their religious beliefs are infallible truths. Just like me trying to discuss LGBTQ issues with some of them…they can’t budge without certain biblical truths as opposition. I have tried over and over to explain it here many times. Same thing with the Jewish Zionists, they have the biblical RIGHT to that land and Trumps apparent support, as well as many on the right.

Everywhere you dig over there, you uncover Jewish menorahs. symbols, architecture, artifacts. Must be pretty damn insulting to those who claim the land belongs to anyone else.

And it must be particularly insulting to those evicted from that land some 70 years ago, after 2000 years of residence.

I once asked a Catholic friend of mine if the Catholics blamed Jews for the death of Jesus, and her response was, “Gawd no.” I remember also she said something about the crucifixion being necessary, she didn’t word it exactly that way, but like the death had to happen, and that was part of why Christianity is what it is today. I interpreted it as His death is what helped the cause. We just talked about Jesus on the cross on another Q, and how Jesus dying on the cross shows His sacrifice, and Christians seem to be very moved by this. His death rallied people to the cause probably, and continues to do so. If anything His crucifuxion brought more people to Christianity I guess, which was the goal of Jesus I guess?

Both the Jews and the Arabs have lived on that land for thousands of years. It’s not difficult to understand why both groups feel they have a right to the land. Again, I would point to the Native Americans, I’m sure we dig up their tools and find burial sights etc around the country. The Europeans screwed up things occupying those lands, and then dividing it up again.

There was already a Zionist movement before the UN decision. Jewish people had already been buying land and moving there. I don’t know how big the number was. Not to mention many Jews had been living there already.

My husband’s paternal Jewish grandparents emigrated from Israel before Hitlers Reign. They went to Mexico in the late 1920’s I think. Might have been early 30’s, I’d have to think about the math more. My FIL’s first languages were Hebrew and Arabic, both spoken in the home, and then later obviously he spoke Spanish primarily outside of the home, having been born and raised in MX. His parents never spoke Spanish well.

Have you seen the Nas Daily videos on Facebook? He is a Palestinian-Israeli and he did a set of videos in Israel talking to Jews and Palestinians, and then he has a whole bunch of other videos from around the world. I think he went to college in NY, I don’t remember. Anyway, his schtick is to unite.

https://www.facebook.com/nasdaily/videos/795070190645135/

@KNOWITALL “You can’t discount half the populations opinions”
I’m unsure what you mean. I don’t discount anybody’s opinions; this is why I asked the question. I disagree with some opinions, sure. But I don’t discount them. Can you clarify?

The issue I have is when beliefs are so strong they become facts. Christianity is not alone in this, obviously. Beliefs are deep routed. There is no evidence Jesus existed, but from a Jewish POV, there is no evidence Moses existed either. And evolution and climate change are real. You know what I mean.

In terms of the original question, though, I think you answered it quite completely in terms of what Zionism means to you, and I thank you for that.

@JLeslie Nas Daily is great. I love that guy. And you are correct. The Zionist movement preceded the UN decision by almost a century.

The Jews (the religion) believe Jesus existed, they just don’t believe he was the Messiah.

The opinions of Jews vary greatly regarding Israel and the Palestinians. Some Jews want two states, some don’t. Some are very empathetic to the Palestinians, some not at all. Most Jewish people do support Israel’s right to exist.

I never thought twice, and had not ever heard that Jews killed Jesus, until the movie Passion of the Christ produced by Mel Gibson came out, and there was all sorts of talk about his supposed antisemitism.
I don’t think the Jews killed Jesus. Wouldn’t Jesus still have been considered a Jew during his life anyway? A Jew claiming to be the Messiah? So then what? Even if someone believes Jews killed Jesus, then Jews killed a Jew.

Just like Muslim terrorists, and the Christian KKK, hateful people use religion as a tool to maintain their power, that is not the responsibility of the religion, nor do those bad people represent the religion in full.

@Caravanfan There are manuscript evidences that the Christian religion was spreading very fast in the first century. Evidences as far as Turkey, India, Ethiopia, the Roman empire, and certainly Jerusalem. If Jesus never existed, the religion would not have started under such persecution and martyrdom. Paul of Tarsus knew many people who knew Jesus personally and he founded many churches in Asia Minor. Originally he was arresting Christians in his lifetime. So yes, Jesus existed.

@Yellowdog No, your logic is faulty. The fact that Christianity was spreading rapidly proves only that Christianity was spreading rapidly. I’ll be happy to debate this on another question if you care to ask it.

The point of this question is Zionism.

I have to agree that Christianity spreading rapidly only proves it was spreading rapidly. Look at the Mormon religion. Most Christians I know think the Mormons are loco and some even call it a cult, and yet the people in the religion accept the teachings as fact, and their numbers continue to grow. Just to clarify, I personally consider Mormons to be Christians, but I know many Christians reject that.

The Mormons are trying to reconcile their differences with Christians—THEY are the ones who separated, yet they claim they are the originals.

Mormons believe that every man will become a God like Yahweh / Jehovah and that every woman will become a ‘goddess’ and give birth to souls. It is a radically different cosmology. They also believe that the the American Indians / Native Americans are Jews and that anyone who marries one will receive the same cursed, dark skin.

Most of their other beliefs were culled from Freemasonry. The cosmology is radically different.

@Yellowdog Why does it matter what they believe? The point is their numbers grow. I think there are almost $20 million Mormons now? There aren’t even that many Jews in the world. If their number isn’t quite that high yet, I’m sure it will get there. They have a better plan than the Jews, the Mormons, like many Christian sects, believe in recruiting and lots of babies.

Why Mainline Christians consider them a cult / reject their teachings. Their beliefs are clearly different, and based on the writings of Joseph Smith who basically said everyone else is wrong.

They have definitely moved to the position of a mainline religion. But they started with a private revelation and writings of one individual whose beliefs mesh with North American peoples, cultures, battles, and cities which did not exist. That’s why they were branded as a cult, at least originally. Judaism and Christianity are rooted in real times and places.

@Yellowdog Yes, I understand why the Christians call them a cult (I found out when Mitt Romney was running, before that I didn’t) but that’s not even the definition of a cult, it’s the Christian definition of cult. Just like Christian use submit differently than the Oxford or Webster definition also. The Christians have some of their own jargon they use that unfortunately is the exact same words used in English with just slightly different meaning. Christians speaking to the general public, like politicians who are speaking, should understand this if they want to be understood by the masses, but those particular politicians are mainly speak to the Christian community so they don’t care.

Another example that is not quite the sand is Christians saying the word marriage is only between a man and a woman. The word marriage and marry is used even with inanimate objects. Flavors can marry in cooking. People can say they aren’t married to the idea of something.

Also, Christianity basically says everyone else is wrong, even other faiths who believe in the same monolithic God. We don’t know if everything written in the Bible actually happened, it’s doubtful it did. They were stories passed down until they were finally written down. Stories lose their accuracy over time. Then you have the problem of translation, and the changing meanings of words over time too.

I’ll keep that in mind about flavours marrying. Maybe I’d be a decent cook or decent at something if I came up with a covenant to go along with those ingredients.

And who’s to say what took place in North America a couple of thousand years ago

Shalom.

I just only mean that in English words are used many different ways, and they evolve over time. I have no problem with a church or religion not embracing gay marriage. They shouldn’t have gay marriages in their churches then.