Social Question

Demosthenes's avatar

Was the resignation of Al Franken a mistake?

Asked by Demosthenes (7049points) 3 weeks ago

Al Franken has lain low since his resignation from the Senate after allegations of sexual harassment against him surfaced in the early days of the #MeToo movement. Recently, Franken has come out of the shadows to speak with the New Yorker’s Jane Mayer. He indicates he regrets resigning and many senators involved in pressuring him to resign expressed regret as well—Patrick Leahy went as far as to say it was one of the biggest mistakes he’s made in his 45 years in the Senate. Others, like Kirsten Gillibrand, have defended their decision to call on Franken to resign.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken

So what do you think? Was it a mistake? Was it an overreaction? What have we learned from the Al Franken story?

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133 Answers

gorillapaws's avatar

@Demosthenes “What have we learned from the Al Franken story?”

Treat women with respect?

mazingerz88's avatar

He’s a disrespectful perv who thought it was funny some of the things he did. He didn’t mind getting his photo taken while posing to grab a sleeping woman’s breasts.

If he was genuinely remorseful and sincerely apologetic he should have been given a second chance. If he did something close to what trump did and has the same number of women accusing him then NO.

Demosthenes's avatar

So is the defense of Franken we’re seeing now from some Democrats purely political? i.e. frustration that one of their own had to leave while someone like Trump remains in the WH? (Franken expressed exactly this frustration during his own resignation). I haven’t read the New Yorker article yet, but I’m just skeptical that the actual facts of the case have much to do with this reaction. There was very scant evidence against Kavanaugh, yet Democrats were all over that; there’s more evidence against Franken, but now it’s regret, regret, regret?

Irukandji's avatar

The mistake is Franken’s bad behavior. The mistake is The New Yorker focusing so much on Tweeden and not mentioning the fact that Franken had several other accusers until more than halfway through the article (and not stating that there were eight credible accusers until near the end of the article).

Other people did worse things? Let’s make them resign, too. Franken is “unaware” of how his way of physically engaging with people makes them uncomfortable? Then maybe he shouldn’t be in a position where engaging with people is a big part of the job. If he’s too obtuse to learn how to stand next to someone without molesting them, he’s too obtuse to be a Senator.

But let’s not fall for the “he didn’t know” excuse. If he didn’t know, then why is it only women who have any memory of being treated inappropriately? The story talks about more than just sexual inappropriateness, but it’s still uniformly women who bore the brunt of his physical excess (both sexual and non-sexual). That’s not a coincidence, and ignorance has never been an excuse.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@Demosthenes: “Was the resignation of Al Franken a mistake?”

No

stanleybmanly's avatar

A mistake for whom? In the battle between left and right, is the left better off without him? Can the case be made that women benefit from his departure? Can the Democrats spare a man of proven intellect, regardless of the fact that he got what he deserved?

Dutchess_III's avatar

No. He was a jerk. His resignation just underscored that the time for the entailed male abusers is PAST.

kritiper's avatar

Yes. Some minor “crimes” do not deserve maximum punishment. Leave it to a mob to want to string somebody up for a minor infraction or error in/of judgment.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Would you consider it a minor infraction, or a simple “error in judgement” if the photo was of him cupping your package while you were sleeping, @kritiper, and it went viral?

Zaku's avatar

What strikes me is how many politicians have not resigned who seem much worse than Franken…

KNOWITALL's avatar

Frankly, the only thing we should have learned is that we should stop crucifying people in the court of public opinion/media before we know all the facts.

Good article, I enjoyed it.

seawulf575's avatar

`I think it’s time to admit that the #MeToo movement may have swung too far. The whole point behind #MeToo is that a woman can come forward with an accusation and the accused is guilty automatically…because God knows we can’t question the woman! But that attitude was started and embraced on the left. When it started hitting the Dems, it suddenly lost some of its appeal. In the end, a person is innocent until proven guilty. If you want to come forward years later with zero evidence to make an accusation, you are doing so for political or personal reasons. You either are trying to damage a person’s career or you just want to hurt them for some reason. Both are nothing more than a smear job.
Franken was on the other side of that. Someone came forward with accusations, had photographic evidence, had corroborating statements, and had a relatively valid claim. But that seems to be an exception these days.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You’re a male. You think grabbing females is your privilege. People are saying it is NOT your privilege and you don’t like that so of course you think it’s swung too far. Most women would disagree with you.

ragingloli's avatar

It is funny, because almost all of the accused so far turned out guilty.

Demosthenes's avatar

@seawulf575 Agreed. That’s been my problem with #metoo from the beginning: accusations are enough to convict, no evidence is required. But in the case of Franken, there actually was some evidence. More than some of these other cases especially. Not every #metoo incident is the same. I don’t necessarily agree that Franken should’ve resigned, but the defense of him (from some, at least) seems very political.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III That’s a very unfair broad, unfair and UGLY generalization of all males.

You want someone saying that about your boy or your grandson? That’s over the line!!!!!

filmfann's avatar

I think he got a bad rap, but it’s good that Democrats show they walk the walk.
With Trump, Republicans humiliate themselves trying to justify his outrageous behavior.

kritiper's avatar

@Dutchess_III He didn’t actually touch her. so your question back to me is meaningless.

kritiper's avatar

Also, it was a man acting like he might touch a woman, not a man acting like he might touch another man, so your question back to me means nothing since I am not gay.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Read again. The only thing I said was he is a male, so that’s why he thinks that way. I didn’t say ALL males think that way. My point was, if he was a female he’d have a better understanding of what the problem.

“He didn’t actually touch her.” What an asinine thing to say. The asshole who came up behind me as I was getting ready to shoot the cue ball in pool and acted like he was humping me from behind to get a laugh out of his buddies didn’t actually touch me either.

Dutchess_III's avatar

WTF does being gay have to do with anything? If a gay guy groped you when you were asleep it would mean nothing to you? Wouldn’t you feel yucky or grossed out, at least? Or do you mean if you were gay you think you would like it?

kritiper's avatar

I may not be as grossed out with a woman acting that way as I would a man, and that has a lot to do with it.
But, the punishment still doesn’t not fit the “crime” so you are exhibiting the same extreme mob mentality of which I spoke.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You didn’t answer the question. Would you be grossed out if a guy did that to you, or would you like it?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III “You’re a male. You think grabbing females is your privilege” I think that sentence says a whole lot more about you than it does me. It tells us all how you view men…all men. You are obsessed with your view of men as neanderthals. If you look at my statement, I am not saying grabbing women is okay. I’m not defending guys that do that. What I AM doing is calling bullshit on women that come out 30 years after the fact with zero evidence and sketchy facts but at a politically important time to claim they were assaulted. AND I am calling bullshit on the MSM and people such as yourself that rush to convict a guy on that same accusation. Tell you what…I guess it’s time to come out with the story. Everyone…it was about 25 years ago…1994 or 1995…I can’t be sure. It was either November or June. But I was at a party and @Dutchess grabbed my junk. I told her I didn’t want her to do that, but she didn’t care and she tried to do it again. We were alone in the kitchen at the time, but I left in a hurry. I’ve never felt so violated before and I just can’t be quiet any longer!

How’s that? do I get a #MeToo?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t care what you think. Every man that I have allowed in my circle was a gentleman and would NEVER treat a woman like that. Never. But plenty of strangers have groped and pinched and humped me. Did you not read my post above about when I was simply trying to shoot pool? That shit happened day in and day out when I was younger.

Anyway, waiting for @kritiper to respond to my question.

seawulf575's avatar

Yes, but you grabbed my junk!!! That was sexual assault! You should be punished or at least shamed by everyone!

Dutchess_III's avatar

Not sure what the hell you’re talking about but yes. If someone grabs your junk they should be called out.

seawulf575's avatar

And I’m calling you out. My point is that with the #MeToo drive, I don’t need proof, I don’t need facts, I don’t even need to be honest. All I need is the accusation and voila! you are a sexual predator. So what do we do with you now? Now that you are a sexual predator? I suggest you should be banned from Fluther! You might prey on others if you are not stopped now!

seawulf575's avatar

Oh! and playing stupid as in “Not sure what the hell you’re talking…” doesn’t work. That’s what all the sexual predators say. They pretend to not know what you are talking about. But you know what you did…you should just admit it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, yes you do. Kavanaugh is proof of that. So is Donald Trump. And finally there is Bill Cosby, who got away with it for DECADES because no one cared, except the women. And in the past, very recent past, all the men had to say was, “She asked for it,” to get off.
And you seem to have gone off the deep end there.

Not sure what that has to do with Franken, when we have photo evidence right in front of you.

@kritiper?? Would you LIKE it if there was a picture of a man cupping your crotch as you slept, circulating on the internet? Are you going to answer the question?

seawulf575's avatar

Your just like all women….you feel like you should be able to sexually assault any guy you want because it’s your privilege.

seawulf575's avatar

And Kavanaugh and Trump are perfect examples of what I am saying. You are dead-set sure Kavanaugh assaulted all sorts of women when he was younger. Why? Because some woman…a left wing activist at that…came forward with an accusation that had zero proof, zero corroboration, and zero actual verifiable facts. No specific dates. No specific locations. No specific anything…except the lurid details about Kavanaugh that no one could confirm. And all this supposedly happened 30 years ago. Conveniently she came forward when he was being confirmed for the SCOTUS…an event the left wanted to avoid at all costs. But because some bimbo came forward and claimed a guy assaulted her sometime, somewhere, in the past (details aren’t important), you are sure he is guilty. You still act like he got away with something. According to you, he was guilty and didn’t prove his innocence. So…with that in mind…I’ve now made an accusation against you. So you are now guilty of being a sexual predator. Prove your innocence or at least resign from Fluther. Either one will satisfy me since the statute of limitations on your particular assault passed long, long ago.

seawulf575's avatar

And what does this have to do with Franken? Pretty much everything. He was scooped up in the #MeToo drive. A woman came forward and accused him and the left had to deal him away so they could keep their political weapon of sexual smearing. Now, a couple years later, they are trying to open the door to forgiving him and trying to make it look like he was innocent.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, shoe’s on the other foot. Sounds like you’re not too happy about that! Hmmmm.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf He shouldnt have quit, I’d have loved to see how he was treated as opposed to Kavanaugh.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL I personally don’t think the treatment of Roy Moore or Al Franken or Brett Kavanaugh or even Harvey Weinstein for that matter was just. In each and every one of these cases, you had women coming forward with accusations and in each and every one of these cases, the accused was put into a position of being perceived as being guilty and they had to prove their innocence. Our dear friend, @Dutchess_III proves my point perfectly. She has now been accused of being a sexual predator and her responses were pretty much in line with what these other gentlemen said. “I don’t know what you are talking about.” or “your a guy and all guys are the same” or the latest “Yeah, but now you know how it feels” which is a really sleazy way of justifying your actions.
I think that if a woman is sexually assaulted, she needs to come forward and be believed…when it happens. Not 30 years later. I think if she comes forward, she needs to have actual facts based on truth, not on fantasy. And in every case, her accusation alone is not proof of anything and the guy needs to be considered innocent until the guilt is proven.
But the “sexual predator” game is wearing thin. When it doesn’t apply equally across the political spectrum, it shows it is a political weapon and, therefore, loses all credibility. For example…Kavanaugh is deemed to be a sexual predator by the left because a woman accused him with zero evidence. They want him expelled from the SCOTUS because of it. But Bill Clinton was accused repeatedly of not only inappropriate actions, but of rape. And the left tries to down play that. They don’t want him to face the music and they actually go after the women. Joe Biden is about as inappropriate with women as you can get, yet he is running for POTUS and the left loves him. They don’t want him branded as a sexual predator with far more proof than there was against Kavanaugh. Even with Franken, there were many, many on the left that were trying to play it off as comedy or a bad gag, but didn’t want to hold him accountable even when there was proof. So until hypocrites are willing to stop treating it as a serious thing only when it applies to people they don’t like, the entire discussion is foolish.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 Why do you hate women who accused their abuser decades later so much? As if there’s no chance they could be telling the truth? And it’s all as simple as ruining a man’s life or career? You think so little of women….like they’re all lying sluts and bitches that unless there is video evidence or corroborating witness to you they MUST be lying! Did Ford come across as insane to you? She must have. You’re acting like a lawyer defending Kavanaugh in court. Well you’re not that lawyer and your Kavanaugh’s corroborating witness was his buddy! Do you think that douche who was there when Ford was assaulted has credibility? Jesus! Lol

Truth is there are people who believed Ford but they just don’t give a shit since Kavanaugh must be installed at the SC. I would admire those people for their honesty if they just come out and say it….instead of this incessant and almost psychotic attacks on late accusing women as filthy liars not worth an iota of your understanding nor empathy.

JLeslie's avatar

Yes, it was a mistake. I said it on the Q’s we had at the time it was happening.

Gillibrand went off my list of possible presidential candidates in my mind with how she crucified Franken and insisted on his resignation without allowing for any sort of inquiry.

josie's avatar

Certainly
All he he did was remind us that politicians generally are, to one degree or another, self centered, hypocritical reprobates.
He was pressured to leave so that we, the governed, might imagine otherwise.
He should have stayed to be a constant reminder of the truth.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 Why are you always so frantic? You are desperate to put words in my mouth and then foam up about them as if I actually said them. I don’t hate women. But I also have respect for the law. And I can ask simple, basic questions about testimony to help me determine if I think someone is lying. Ford was lying from the start. Yes, there were people that believed her…but they were on the left…not the ones that wanted Kavanaugh on the SCOTUS. You are a prime example. You believed her. But let’s review….she couldn’t come up with an actual time…chose a time period of several months, couldn’t identify a location, couldn’t come up with a single witness including her long-time friend that couldn’t corroborate her story, claimed she went into therapy over it but her own therapists notes never mention Kavanaugh even though she swore under oath she told her, she claimed she couldn’t come to DC to testify because she has a debilitating fear of flying, but then it comes out that she flies all the time for vacations…not a single actual verifiable fact came out of her. And based on that pile of nothing, you think she was valid. Meanwhile, there were many people that came forward to support Kavanaugh and to describe the type of person he really is. The left (people such as yourself) dealt with them as just being crazies that will say or do anything to get Kavanaugh onto the SCOTUS. So in your mind, a person that makes an accusation with zero actual evidence or proof is more believable than someone that denies it and has people backing him up. Think about that…let it sink in. What does that say about you? That you are so dipped in the kool-aid that you will believe whatever story you are told?
You ask if Ford came across as being insane. No, but she did come across as having an agenda. It came from her timing, it came from her lies, it came from little things like how she sanitized her social media before coming forward to hide who she really is. It came from how Feinstein brought this whole thing out. It came from the bogus story the media gave us about Ford going to Feinstein with this story and then saying she didn’t want it to go public. That, to me, was the first key. A college professor that was so stupid as to believe that taking a story about a SCOTUS nominee to a sitting Senator who was in the middle of confirmation hearings “just to get it off her chest”, expected this story to be kept secret. Why come forward at all if you really didn’t want it to turn into a three ring circus? Why wait 30 years to come forward when Kavanaugh had been moving into progressively more and more important positions during that time?
And in the end, this sort of bogus claim (by Ford) hurts actual women that have been attacked. They see the three-ring circus going on and then hesitate to come forward. They have actual proof and/or witnesses and still hesitate. That is the legacy the left is creating. So, @mazingerz88, I guess the question is back to you…why do you hate women so much?

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Respect for the law BS. You assume all women who accused their attackers are nothing but lying conniving humans. And your Kavanaugh btw got away with it thanks to law abiding creatures like you. Ford comes across with an agenda so she must be lying? Just say you don’t give a shit about her ordeal and that would make more sense instead of this BS about you respecting the law. Be more of a human being who feels and respect women when they NEED it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 Oh come on, that’s not even close to being fair or accurate.

She didn’t say she was raped. There was no crime!!!

In one way you’re right, thanks to law-abiding people, an innocent man got to carry on with his life.

Frankly, I think @seawulf575 understands the situation better than you and this woman would take his honest opinion over yours (based on your posts) any day.

mazingerz88's avatar

C’mon. It’s never about Kavanaugh’s innocence or not. No one who wanted to see him in the SC cared about that. Yeah, her not being raped made all the difference. How dare she had to suffer when her vagina wasn’t penetrated at all. Jesus. What’s wrong with you people? All for a SC seat?

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL She was assaulted, at minimum harassed, and there was the threat of great harm. It’s not nothing, but I agree it’s not rape.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 Just admit it was politically motivated and nothing more, we all know it’s true.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@mazingerz88 I love you. That is the FIRST time I have ever heard a man tell if from understanding the woman’s POV. Thank you so much.
Kavenaugh is a pig. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like his mentor.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Your accusation against @Dutchess_III might be a little more credible if you, like the accusers of Kavanaugh, Cosby, Weinstein, et al, could show at least some proof of having some connection to @Dutchess_III. For example, actresses who talked about being in movies that Weinstein was producing. Women who were at parties with Cosby. Women who went to the same university as Kavanaugh. Many accusers had photos and correspondence with their accusers. It adds to the story, other than just saying “I am accusing you of something even though we’ve never met.”

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 and that was exactly my point. When we open the door to all accusers are automatically accepted as being true and honest and their accused have to prove their innocence, we open a door to complete idiocy. If I accuse @Dutchess_III, by the same rationale, I don’t have to prove anything…I’m the accuser. I am automatically right and @Dutchess_III is automatically the villain, unless she can prove her innocence. And based on past performance by the left, no excuse is good enough. Not knowing a person is just an act. Never having been in the same room is just a lie. Even people that can attest to your story are just lying because, well, you are scum and that means all your friends are scum. After all…you were accused!
And to prove that point, that it is exactly what happens, I give you Christine Blasey-Ford. She claimed to have been at a party (unsure of date…even the month within any reasonable time frame…unsure of location, unsure of all the details) and was attacked by Kavanaugh. She also said her dear friend could attest to her story. What did the friend say? She couldn’t remember ever being at a party with Ford and Kavanaugh at the same time. So let’s put it into the terms you just said…she’s accusing him of something even though no one could actually say you were ever even at the same party together. Yet look at all the hatred spewing from the left, even today, when you point that out. Ask @mazingerz88…I hate all women because I think this was nothing more than a contrived political ploy.

mazingerz88's avatar

@seawulf575 I also think you see kavanaugh as another oppressed white guy similar to yourself along with other white guys out there who think they are being treated unfairly by I don’t know…today’s society?

Also, it’s insulting to boil and narrow it all down to being political…even by Ford. All the politicians surrounding Ford and Kavanaugh needless to say were all politically motivated, only a few genuinely cared about them as….human beings. They were merely tools to get to some end result they wanted.

But with Ford it isn’t political imo. She wanted closure. That closure appeared as revenge or politics to most people and so be it but…imo not for her.

She isn’t deranged. She remembers well both of these assholes who assaulted her. Her trauma made her forget significant details. For decades she didn’t do anything, not even when Kavanaugh made a life as federal judge. She probably thought she forgave him. Imo, it all turned for her when she found out he could be in the SC. Her pain and long dormant need for closure probably wouldn’t allow herself to see him raised up to that ultimate esteemed and critical position.

Part revenge, sure….which was her right! That’s something you want to deny her because she wasn’t raped, merely jumped on by boys who were just being…boys. That was NOTHING. Right? That’s your rationale and your conscience (if there’s any) willingly accepted.

Just do me a favor and stop this BS repeating this idiocy that Ford had no witness and Kavanaugh has one. His own buddy who wow…exonerated him! Fucking shocking.

seawulf575's avatar

@mazingerz88 Okay, you seem set on this idea that Ford was the angel with altruistic motives. You think she was honest and all those supporting Kavanaugh, or even those that just feel he wasn’t guilty just on her say so are evil women-hating slime. I got it. But I notice you really don’t address any of the discrepancies I mentioned with Ford’s story. The only excuse you have is that she forgot lots of important stuff because of her trauma. So isn’t it also possible she forgot a lot of other details? See…this is where those that believe her blindly fall apart. They avoid actually seeing the lies for what they are. Remember how she couldn’t got to DC to testify because of her debilitating fear of flying? Remember how the left started making excuses when it came out that she flew all the time? So if she can overcome her fear of flying to jet off on a vacation, couldn’t she do it to testify against the guy that caused all this trauma in her life? But no…she tried to hide behind that excuse. To the left, she showed great courage to get on that plane and face her aerophobia. To those that are more skeptical, she was lying to start with and didn’t want to actually have to testify to her bogus story. Remember how she stated (under oath) she knew nothing about lie detectors? And do you remember how her old boyfriend came forward to avow that she coached others on how to beat the lie detectors? The more you dig into her story and look at the facts, the weaker and weaker it becomes until all that is left is political motivation. And we know all too well that the left will lie their asses off if they believe it will help their silly agenda. Remember BAMN?
And in the end, those lies hurt actual victims. THAT is what I am saying. And those lies only have any credibility because of those in the media and those on the left that will ignore all the lies and all the inconsistencies and the entire lack of any supporting evidence of any kind. That deepens the cynicism by the majority of Americans (yes, your uber-leftism is definitely the minority) and makes those actual women that are victims less likely to come forward. So again…why do you hate women so much that you put your silly political beliefs ahead of their pain?

Demosthenes's avatar

From the article: “Democrats did not only him but themselves and liberal values serious harm by forcing Franken out without him getting his due process, and this is all going to come back on them, and those values, and quite possibly the #MeToo movement, in ways we can’t really anticipate.”

Astute observation.

But Norm MacDonald is right: the #MeToo movement has never been about due process.

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes Exactly. That is the problem with every case out there where someone is accused and deemed guilty without any due process. Doing trials in the court of public opinion is what the Dems meant to do for Roy Moore and later for Brett Kavanaugh. It’s a political ploy. After the big build up for Moore, #MeToo was started and women came out accusing many people. Some of those seemed like valid accusations and some did not. But in the end, the point was to damage whomever they were accusing without actually having to prove anything for real. And THAT is what caught Franken. Even with photographic evidence, he deserved a fair trial where evidence can be presented.
But the Dems did learn from Franken. After all, they have avoided believing the women that accused Bill Clinton and, in fact, have attacked those women. They suddenly wanted to avoid the court of public opinion with Keith Ellison who was accused of physically attacking his girlfriend and there was supposedly video evidence of that. So after sacrificing Franken on the altar of their own creation, they suddenly only wanted that altar to apply to Republicans.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Demosthenes What do you mean #metoo isn’t about due process? #Metoo is about holding the assholes, like Franken, who think all women and their bodies are fair game, responsible for their actions and due process is part of it.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III That is only partially correct. #MeToo is about getting at the men. But let’s look at most of the high profile cases…none of them were actual legal challenges. They were just airing out a complaint to damage the accused reputation. That isn’t due process, it’s a smear job. And while it’s true that in some cases the guys are assholes and deserve it, I think it is patently false to say it is true 100% of the time. There have been too many cases where the accuser (the “violated” woman) has come out and admitted she made it up. And in the end, unless there is a fair chance for the accused to defend himself, there is no due process.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: Just because an accusation isn’t taken to court doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. So often, with the #MeToo movement, the accused admitted wrongdoing or there was evidence showing wrong doing. Take for example comedian Louis C.K. It didn’t go to court but he admitted wrong doing.

When I did child welfare work, you’d be astounded at the number of women who admitted to me that someone in their family or a friend molested them. So many. Just because someone doesn’t take it to court, or didn’t take it to court, should the assumption be that the accuser is lying?

Dutchess_III's avatar

So…men have been “getting at the women” for millennia, but just let the women “get at the men” once and it’s cry me a river.
Again, shoe’s on the other foot and you don’t seem to like it much.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III In all fairness, I don’t like it much either. Turn about is not fair play in my book. I don’t choose to victimize anyone and I certainly don’t respect it.

If it’s true, then so be it, but women have recanted, admitted they lied, etc…I’m not defending that BS to score a point, by ruining someones career or life.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It’s not “turn about” as much as it is Karma. Sure, women have lied, but the vast majority of times it isn’t a lie. But in the past, all the men had to say was, “But look at how she was dressed. Look at where she was. She had on make up. She was dancing!” In other words, Not My Fault. Her Fault. And they skated. They were never disciplined.
That has changed and some men, like @seawulf575, do not like it at all. Our bodies all belong to them to do with what they want.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I didn’t get that from his post, I think he’s saying what I’m saying, that convicting them in the media and public opinion without proof is the wrong thing to do.

If there’s proof, go get them and more power to ya.

If there’s no proof, then don’t convict them and hurt their careers, kids, etc…

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, this is @Demosthenes’ post, not @seawulfs. I still maintain that Franken is the poster boy for why we need the #metoo movement. You can’t just casually, carelessly treat women like sexual play toys. Not any more. It’s wrong. It always has been wrong.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III I agree, the guilty ones should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I was referring to @seawulf575 ‘s post regarding claims that aren’t substantiated.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Of course no one thinks people should be punished just on say so. I am aware that it’s happens, and it is so wrong. @seawulf575 is more bent out of shape than most about it, though.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 you are absolutely correct that just because there isn’t a legal case doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But there is also no due process. It might be that there is evidence and it might be that the offender admitted to the impropriety. But there are also many, many cases that have gotten high visibility where there is NO evidence and NO admission…in fact there have been DENIALS. But the left doesn’t seem to care….because they aren’t trying to get justice, they are trying to smear someone. And so many of the #MeToo cases seem to fall into that.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m really not bent out of shape on this. I’m just making the point that #MeToo has been used as a political weapon and unfortunately for Franken, it got used against him.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It’s unfortunate in several respects, beginning with the fact that we have no surplus of intelligent knowledgeable politicians. But Franken (like most politicians) is well heeled and will do just fine. We’re certain to hear from him again.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think we’re moving closer to the heart of the problem. You think that what he did in that picture was “no big deal.” Just harmless fun. Is that what you’re trying to say @seawulf575?

stanleybmanly's avatar

My take on Franken is simply that the times caught up with him. The brakes on misogyny have been locking up hard for most of his adult life. For a man at the forefront of the progressive movement to leave himself vulnerable to accusations of frat boy nonsense leaves little margin for sympathy with his plight. Turnabout is indeed fair play if he allows himself to be trapped by a conservative stooge—prank or not. A considerable liberal heavyweight was knocked off on the cheap, as it would be next to impossible to make a case for Franken as sexual predator. And Joe Biden? Gimme a break!

Dutchess_III's avatar

I still wonder what men’s reaction would be if a picture of another man cupping their genitalia while they were sleeping went viral? Even if he was just pretending to cup their genitalia.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III Probably laughing like frat boys.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Not at a man cupping another man’s genitals! A women grabbing them, maybe. But not another man.
I’ve asked this question a few times now, and I am not getting an answer, which I find interesting.

@stanleybmanly It’s nice to hear a man speak on this issue with some compassionate understanding of what it’s like for women. Thank you.

ragingloli's avatar

Btw, did you get the picture I sent you?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Yeah, but that wasn’t what I was looking for! You can post it if you want, though.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@Dutchess III Compassion? I prefer to think of it as putting myself in your shoes. It only makes sense that you would treat anyone the way you would prefer to be treated. And you never do ANYTHING to or with a woman barring her consent that you would not do in front of your mother.

ragingloli's avatar

Here is Al Franken grabbing some fat guy’s tits:
https://imgur.com/a/edS66KG

Dutchess_III's avatar

It seems simple to me too @stanleybmanly!

stanleybmanly's avatar

@ragingloli yeah. He screwed up. With that leer on his face, it almost doesn’t matter what he is out to mangle. Both he and his liberal supporters pay for his poor judgement. Odds are, he won’t make such a mistake again.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III In today’s environment, if a guy complained that some other guy grabbed his genitalia or aired a picture of him pretending to, I’m pretty sure that the left would brand him as a homophobe.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I asked specifically how you would feel if a picture of you with some guy grabbing your genitals while you were sleeping went viral @seawulf575. You just are not going to answer the question, are you.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III What you asked is:

“I still wonder what men’s reaction would be if a picture of another man cupping their genitalia while they were sleeping went viral? Even if he was just pretending to cup their genitalia.”

YOU isn’t in that question and you certainly didn’t direct it at me. It seemed awfully general so I answered accordingly. But like most liberals, you want to change history so you can rag on someone. Want me to answer it as if it were directed at me? I wouldn’t give two hoots. I have had my ass grabbed by a gay guy. I have been propositioned quite rudely by others. I took it all in stride. It didn’t offend me other than the rudeness and that speaks more to them than to me. Apparently they found me attractive enough to make a pass at. But it wasn’t my cup of tea.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I am directing it at you now. How would you like it if someone took a picture of a guy cupping your junk while you were sleeping then passed it around on the internet?

seawulf575's avatar

Oh! So the smarmy, condescending attitude on your previous post was….? And my answer stands. I don’t care. I don’t do social media and anyone that knows me (and that I consider a friend) would find it hilarious if they saw it. I would probably eventually have it sent to me, but again…who cares? If you saw a picture of some guy cupping my junk, I wouldn’t care. You are welcome to think whatever you like of me. Believe it or not, I do have gay friends and some of them might even stage such a pic. But most likely they wouldn’t be able to wait for me to see it so I would probably see it before social media passed it around.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You wouldn’t care. Alrighty then.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Would you like it?
Would you consider it a compliment?

seawulf575's avatar

Guys aren’t my thing, sexually, so I’m not turned on by it, but beyond that, I really don’t care. There are bigger things to fret about. Let’s put it in perspective. I don’t know most of the people on social media. Since I don’t know them, I really don’t care what they think about me. The ones I do know that are on social media either know me and don’t like me or they know me and they do. If they don’t like me, a picture like that isn’t going to make them like me less, nor will it make them suddenly feel sorry for me so their opinion to me is meaningless. The ones that do know me and like me, as I said, would probably give me good natured grief about it, but it would blow over like a fast moving storm. I just can’t find anything to get wound up about. Would I see it as a compliment? Probably not…at least not staging a picture and posting it on the internet. But I would possibly see it as a joke, which is probably what it was.
So let me ask you: If someone staged a picture of them cupping your genitalia while you were asleep, how would YOU feel about it?

kritiper's avatar

@Dutchess_III I answered the question. I am not gay. It’s only natural, then, to assume that I would be grossed out and angry. But I might be willing to let it go if no harm was done.
But this still doesn’t apply since one of the people in question was male and the other was female. Please stay on topic!

Dutchess_III's avatar

@seawulf575 I find it really creepy that you keep bringing sex into it, like, if you were “gay” it would be OK for any random male to do that to you. In other words, you assume that was a straight women who was sleeping, therefore what Franken did was perfectly OK?

If someone posted such a picture of me like that I’d be pissed as hell. It’s degrading and demeaning. I would sue.

kritiper's avatar

Of course you would. That’s the difference between you and me. (And, it appears, @seawulf575 .)
You would sue. I’d let it go.

Dutchess_III's avatar

And, like seawulf, you find it to be sexual rather than abusive?

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III You once again go way out of your way to read into my statement. Would I like it? I wouldn’t care…as I have said. Would I consider it a compliment? If it was a picture of some guy pretending to grab my junk, I would consider it exactly what it is…a picture of some guy pretending to grab my junk. It’s at worst a bad joke. It is you that is trying to turn everything into sex. Let’s face it…that is what we are talking about. And how people go about it. It was you that opened the door to some guy grabbing me.
I have always said that what happened to Franken was an expected result of the #MeToo movement. But let’s be honest…he was a comedian. He did things because he saw humor in them…not because he was looking to be abusive or even sexual. But if the left wants to go bat shit crazy trying to skewer any Repubs they can with the #MeToo, they need to expect it to blow back on them. And Franken was an example of that blow back.
In the end, it is the humorless left and their hypocrisy that created the entire shit storm. When they started trying to use sexual abuse and misconduct as a political weapon, they created an entire series of women coming out of the woodwork spewing about any perceived wrong they had in their lives, whenever and where ever it may (or may not) have occured. And the whole point was to smear some guy, whether he deserved it or not. And in most cases, we will not know if he deserved it or not since the whole point of #MeToo was to NOT have to provide any evidence.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I find your attitude very, very interesting. I “turned” it sexual? It IS sexual. Grabbing breasts and pussies and genitalia without permission is sexual harassment and abuse. I find it interesting that you don’t view it that way.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III So which is it…is it sexual or is it abusive? They are not the same. Yet you seem to be arguing it from both sides. You first say “I find it really creepy that you keep bringing sex into it” which was the first time sex was brought up. Then you say _“It IS sexual.” So are you creepy? Were you just looking for a way to insult me?
You can look at it as a bad joke. The picture of Franken pretending to grope a woman wasn’t abusive or sexual. He didn’t actually touch her. It was a bad joke…a misogynistic joke at best. If someone were to take a picture like that of me sleeping while they pretended to grope me, I wouldn’t care. I have a hard time believing that if I were sound asleep someone could grab my genitalia and not wake me up…I don’t sleep THAT deeply. If I woke up and someone had hold of me, I’d probably ask them what they thought they were doing. But again…I’m not going to get upset about it. It would be sexual, but a really sad, weak effort at it. It really speaks more about the person grabbing me than it does me. I can’t get that wound up about it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

What do you mean “it can’t be both”? Yes it can, and it is. It’s sexually abusive.
It’s like you think rape is all about sex and there is nothing abusive about it.
I find it weird that you think it has to do with sex MORE than with abuse. I get the impression that if you were a gay guy you think you’d actually enjoy a strange male groping you without permission.

seawulf575's avatar

So you are creepy and you aren’t. Got it. It IS Sexual and it isn’t. And just a random point…I have been groped by gay guys before…several times. So apparently some gay guys like it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It is sexual and it is abusive. Why is the fact that it can be BOTH so confusing to you?

Guys grope because they want to, not because some random people like it. Guys who do that shit are the most self centered, selfish humans on the face of this earth. They could care less if you like it or not. They can’t even imagine that a woman (or a man) wouldn’t like it.

JLeslie's avatar

^^So true.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III wasn’t it you that said you would be willing to pay the plumber with sex? You can have that attitude, but get upset if a guy makes a move on a woman? Or another guy? Ever stop to think that offering to pay the bill with sex might come off as a bit creepy? Ever think it might be viewed as abusive by the guy? No…you don’t think like that because in your mind, only men can be abusive.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No…I don’t think I said I would pay the plumber with sex! LOL! I have never offered to pay any bill by having sex with a guy.
At least if I did OFFER he has the option of refusing. It’s not the same thing as a man grabbing another human by their genitals without their permission.

I have another question when you get done trying to figure out what the difference is.

seawulf575's avatar

Actually we had a nice discussion in which you felt it was totally appropriate for a woman to pay for home improvements with sex. But then, you also seemed to think prostitution was a noble endeavor for women. Again though…what if the guy felt that was abusive when she offers her payment? I noticed you dodged that one nicely.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Abusive? It’s only abusive if she neglects to inform him prior to his performing the work. She can offer him anything before the job. They must agree to the “price” before work commences.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I said that if a woman wants to trade up sex for home improvements, and the guy was shallow enough to go for it, then good for her. I didn’t say I would do the same.

I still think prostitution is a perfectly fine endeavor. It’s just sex. What IS your hang up with sex?

…what if the guy felt that was abusive when she offers her (sex for) payment? I noticed you dodged that one nicely. I said If he felt it was abusive he just needs to say “No,” and walk away. Was that not the right answer? What else are you looking for?

seawulf575's avatar

And you are dodging the question. what if your offer offended the person? What if they felt it was abusive? Isn’t that the actual determining factor…how the person being offended views things?

Dutchess_III's avatar

If he feels it’s abusive he needs to call the cops and have me arrested, if he can. If it isn’t enough to get me arrested then, at the very least, he needs to read me the riot act and tell me how offended he was. Hopefully I’ll be a decent person and I’ll apologize. (Or resign.)
I am not sure what answer it is you’re looking for.

seawulf575's avatar

My point is that you would be willing to possibly offend someone…abuse them in their eyes…because you wanted to. Yet you want to hold men to a different standard. You talk about a guy groping a woman like it is a horrible thing…abusive, sexually deviant, whatever term you like. Yet there are many times that a woman actually likes it. Not all women and not all the time…but I have seen many times that a woman gets turned on by a guy that is more aggressive…one that grabs her, kisses her and eventually grabs her ass. On the flip side of that, I have seen those same women (and more) show no interest in a guy that tries treating them with respect. So while you sit there on your pedestal judging all men, you might want to realize you don’t speak for all women. And remember, by your rationale, if a guy grabs your ass and you get upset, he should be able to just say “sorry” and all is good…that makes him a decent person.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

You’ve been spending too much time on your fantasy porn (and in your own mind) and not spending enough time in the real world of women.

But to address your point, as if it was real, just because ONE random woman pretends to like having her pussy grabbed does not give all men the right to do whatever they want to every women they encounter after that.

seawulf575's avatar

Time to get out into the real world and out of YOUR fantasy world. It isn’t just ONE random woman.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I used the phrase “random woman” to refer to the odd woman, 1 in 1000, who actually like getting grabbed (or pretend they do,) and you’re bringing that up. This begs the question, how do you know which women like being grabbed and which ones don’t? And HOW do you know they like it?

seawulf575's avatar

I find it interesting, how women act. I knew quite a few women in my single days that were always in bad relationships. They all claimed to want a “nice guy” that would treat them right, but wouldn’t go out with ones I knew to be nice guys…they were too nice. They wanted bad boys…ones that were aggressive with them. It was a thrill, I guess. I knew a couple of women that had boyfriends that would beat them. They would leave the boyfriend and he would come back apologizing and they would take him back only to get beat again. I knew women that were married to nice guys, yet would go pick up strangers when hubby was away. I watched many, many women that would meet a guy, have a couple drinks, get out onto the dance floor and pretty soon the guy’s hands are on her ass. They not only didn’t get upset, they got more into it. Now we have you telling us that doesn’t happen. I think you need to get out more.

jca2's avatar

@seawulf575: There are plenty of guys who are married to beautiful, smart, loyal women and the guys still cheat, too. It goes both ways.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Right @jca2? And I’m one of them.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You see what you want to see @seawulf575. It’s a man thing to believe that because the sex was good for you it was good for her too. That she enjoys all the same things you do.
SMH.

seawulf575's avatar

@jca2 You are absolutely correct. But then, no one was putting men on a pedestal either.

seawulf575's avatar

@Dutchess_III actually I’m seeing what’s in front of me. And there you go again trying to tell us all how men think…lumping us all into one big pot with very primitive thinking. Why do you hate men so much?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I don’t hate them. I understand them. They are so simple. So simple. So I go from there.

seawulf575's avatar

Apparently not.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You still haven’t explained how you figure sex and abuse can’t happen at the same time.

seawulf575's avatar

I think you need to define sex for this. By your previous posts, you are including anything up to and including a guy saying hi. Define sex and I will spell out your answer for you.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You don’t know what sex is, or what a sexual come on is??

seawulf575's avatar

I want to know what YOUR definition of sex is. Where does “sex” actually start? If a guy does “X”. that is considered sex to you…that’s what I’m looking for.

seawulf575's avatar

After all, you said sex and abuse happen at the same time. I guess the closest I could agree with that would be called rape. So I’m looking for YOUR definition of sex.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Wow. So grabbing women’s breasts, butt, genitalia without their consent is not abuse, only rape?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Cheese and rice it just hit me. I could NOT figure how something so obvious was so hard for you to comprehend @seawulf575. It’s because you’re one of them. You’re one of those men that think it’s your God given right to grab any part of any woman you feel like, because it gives you a sexual thrill. Furthermore you actually believe we also like it! We will tell you we don’t and you would just laugh condescendingly, knowing full well that we really DO like it and we’re just playing head games.
And you also think you’re God’s gift to women and one of the best lovers of all time.
It’s because of men like you that the #MeToo movement was born.
And you STILL don’t get it.

seawulf575's avatar

I think I see the problem here too. We don’t share the same definition of sex. That is what I am asking you to define so we can have a rational discussion. So far you have dodged. Unless you are saying if a guy is slow dancing with a woman and gives her butt a squeeze is a definition of sex. Just answer the question and we can continue the discussion. If all you want to do is dodge and try attacking me with your hate-filled opinion of men (all men), you have closed off all further discussion.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Sex is intercourse, or basically any action with the intention of having an orgasm. Then there is foreplay, which is what guys like you think grabbing women is.
It is wrong.

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