Social Question

seawulf575's avatar

Is keeping things shut down for the coronavirus more damaging physically and emotionally than opening them back up?

Asked by seawulf575 (10662points) 5 days ago

When the coronavirus was first identified as a problem and started hitting the US, the economy was effectively shutdown. Now there is an outcry to open it back up and there is a lot of differing opinions about that. A letter was written and signed by 600 physicians and sent to the WH asking the economy to be reopened for health reasons. They identify many aspects of the shutdown that result in many, many health issues. Additionally, Dr. Fauci is calling for the economy to be reopened. Reopening will likely cause an uptick in Covid-19 cases. Should we stay shutdown or reopen? And why?

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55 Answers

ragingloli's avatar

Only if you are married to a wife beater in Redneckistan.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli that has got to be the most foolish statement I have ever seen. good job…you’re the winner in a category that doesn’t speak well of you.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Are you not reopening the economy now?
Are you saying it’s still shut down?
Please explain this because I am known for taking things out of context.
Like I said I thought you said you guys were reopening the economy slowly, and that seems like a safe way to go now this question about reopening the economy??

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I believe he is saying open it “WIDE OPENING” no restriction.

johnpowell's avatar

Remember Dog? The old mod from here. Her dad is one of the 90K plus. She spent today cleaning out his house.

Reopening will likely cause an uptick in Covid-19 cases.

FFS.. There is no likely.

josie's avatar

People either want to confront the challenge or evade it and hope for the best.
This whole event is a study of human nature.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

WE debated on another thread about reopening the economy you were convinced I wanted things to stay locked down for safety , I was convinced you wanted to throw the doors wide open and just go for it, you told me that wasn’t the case ,but the economy must get open and we both agreed slowly, so was that a fright wing lie!!
I am fine with slowly with health professionals in the drivers seat, now you say with the help of FOX no less mental health, and people committing suicide the economy must reopen, but again isn’t your economy reopening as we speak??

stanleybmanly's avatar

Aren’t things supposedly opening up anyway? There is an awful lot of leeway around a word as casual as “uptick”. If our death toll from this virus is now 100,000 after 2 months of supposed shutdown, the decision to open up risks the sort of “uptick” in corpses to surpass the hazards of the now unavoidable “downturn” in the economy. The United States is in for a rougher ride than the rest of the developed world concerning this disease, and the reasons are obvious right up front. To begin with, there is a huge disparity in resources and infrastructure from place to place. To aggravate this handicap, there is no unity or even agreement from the top, with our knucklehead President openly at war with the agencies supposedly responsible for managing this national crisis. The resulting chaos in leaving crucial decisions across the board in the hands of the various states and counties will produce just the results one might expect from an airborne epidemic immune to the proclivities of states rights. We, unlike the rest of the world are forced to allow the states to make these decisions like it or not because for all practical purposes there is no Federal approach. Then there is the other aspect of our situation that differentiates us from the rest of the first world countries. And that is the economic consequences for the INDIVIDUAL who gets sick in America. Who in this country, even with medical insurance, is prepared to suffer the financial expenses associated with any serious illness in America? The death toll from this disease is going to be frightening, but the financial toll on tens of millions of survivors around medical bills is going to be more debilitating than I want to thing about. That is a reality that anyone choosing to resume work SHOULD ponder. If you can avoid risking it, what’s the smart move?

Jonsblond's avatar

Here’s the traffic heading to northern Wisconsin today. A large number of the cars are from Illinois. I guess we’ll see in a couple weeks how this turns out.

https://i.imgur.com/RDEeJIV.jpg

seawulf575's avatar

@Patty_Melt great link. I think she is ready for a job in Washington DC

stanleybmanly's avatar

That is exactly the point. LEADERSHIP. Who are we to turn to for reliable information? Who fkd up? Who’s responsible this time for the fake news?

anniereborn's avatar

The more my state opens, the more vigilant I become with precautions. This is gonna be a shit fest.

cookieman's avatar

I agree with @Jonsblond in that all the speculation in the world will be irrelevant in a few weeks. By then, we should start to see if these partial-reopenings result in an uptick of cases.

I, for one, regardless of what’s open, am in no hurry to go anywhere I don’t really need to.

Demosthenes's avatar

I don’t know. I don’t think anyone knows. This is something we can only effectively evaluate after-the-fact. We can see the economic damage that keeping things shut down is causing, but we can also see that we’re still losing thousands of Americans every week to the disease. The fact is, there may never be a vaccine and this disease may recur yearly. In that case, we will have to learn to deal with it without shutting everything down indefinitely or every time the disease recurs.

Patty_Melt's avatar

@seawulf575, White House press secretary?

seawulf575's avatar

@Patty_Melt Possibly, but I’m thinking more of an elected decision maker. She manages to throw exact opposites into the same statement like they aren’t contradictory. Where have I heard THAT before? But she did a great job of summing up what we are being told!

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Cute video, to bad she doesn’t realise if she turned her smartphone sideways she would get a full picture for her videos.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

What if this predicted uptick turns out to be full blown surge with infected numbers and deaths going through the roof, then what??
Oops sorry?
But if it is just a slight uptick then slow and steady is a good thing and the world is some what back on the path to normal.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Let’s look at that. What if the numbers go up? Right now we are literally killing people and destroying lives by keeping things shut down. We can’t stay shut down forever. If opening up causes the numbers to go up, I just have to ask…do we have a choice?

stanleybmanly's avatar

So was it irresponsible to shut down at all? Should we just proceed with living and ignore the virus?

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I think the entire decision to shutdown was foolish, personally. But we are here now. In typical bureaucratic fashion, a knee-jerk was the reaction. What would it have looked like if, instead of shutting down and fumbling around for months, they had come out with suggestions of keeping 6’ distancing and working with businesses to find ways minimize customer contact? Think it would have been better or worse for the country? After all, isn’t that what Sweden did? They worked immediately to protect the most vulnerable people and worked with the rest for proper social changes to minimize the spread. Doesn’t that seem to make more sense?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

But again. Wulfie as we debated on another thread, you guys are reopening your economy, so why this question?
Unless it is as I suspected you do just want to throw the doors open type thing, but you assured me that wasn’t the idea, just as much as I don’t want to keep anyones economy shut down, just reopen slow and safely.
Again idolizing Sweden they have the highest death rate so far, you want that for your country?

Patty_Melt's avatar

I think we should bear in mind that what everyone has in common here is a desire for survival.
There are varying views on how that should be accomplished. Politicians are in the same boat.
Instead of hating people for having a different opinion, what is going to be most beneficial will be to discuss logically how to best recover. That means be like Spock. No angry outbursts. No raging fury. No hanging effigy.
Leaders of many countries are in agony over the terrible loss of life.
Everybody wants the losses to stop.
Fear is everywhere.
Mommies of little five year olds are having nightmares about taking little ones to their first day of school at what could be a death chamber.

I am ashamed at fluther for the rage, and dissention. With so many brilliant minds, we should be able to discuss in a way that is productive.
Stop reacting out of blind fear, and make thoughts useful, and worthy of sharing.
Who knows? If we organize, maybe we could save the world.
Who hasn’t fantasized at least once about being a hero?

Is Fluther a question and answer site, or a question and bicker site?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Bickering is a word applied to petty topics. The “bickering” this time is about trading lives against economic outcomes. And here, we must give pause, because (as usual) those dictating decisions rarely pay with their own lives. I know you tire of me bringing up our President, but I don’t doubt for an instant that he would sacrifice as many of us as required to assure an economy favorable to his election. The same may to some extent be said of politicians in general, but my view of this epidemic is the same as I would have on any other national enterprise requiring the death of some of us. It’s a war of sorts, and there are more than ample reasons to distrust those insisting that we “volunteer” and “do our part” to elevate the dow/jones average and facilitate my reelection.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly would it be fair, then, to say that the Democrats will sacrifice us all just to make sure the economy tanks in time for elections? Because there is more and more evidence coming out that staying shutdown is worse than opening up, yet they (the Dems) continue to want to keep things shut down for as long as possible.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

But, but @stanleybmanly Wulfie is saying staying locked down is causing physical harm and lives as well
so even though Covid19 is costing thousands of your citizens their lives every day, it’s worth the cost to get reopen as fast as possible because the lives that are being lost due to the shut down are more important than the lives that are being lost due to Covid 19.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 if you believe this decision boils down to Democrats vs. Republicans, I’m happy that life is so simple for you. You’re full of shit about that more and more evidence, because the stark truth is nobody knows how many of us will live or die regarding this disease. The only thing for which I can assure you is that I anticipate a certain disappointment when the odds improve on myself being numbered among the dead. As things stand now, I reside in a town locked down more tightly even than the state notorious for its lockdown stringency, and consider myself damned lucky to be here. As I repeat, I am more than content to watch you economy canaries descend into the coal mine, and await the results of your experiment. I hope you may enjoy the most crowded venue possible while enjoying a happy and prosperous Memorial Day weekend.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wait a minute Wulfie are saying the lock down is hurting Trumps chance at re-election?
I thought you were actually concerned about the harm the lock down is doing to your fellow citizens, the mental and physical harm they were doing to themselves over the lock down, that seems to out weigh the thousands of your citizens dying every day because of the virus, are you turning this into a political thing?
Your economy is reopening and is that not good enough?
Are you using the people dying from the shut down as a way to fling the doors wide open just to get The Don Father back on the throne?
I looked at people dying and the best way to stop or at least slow it way down, the shut down and social distancing seem to be a good way.
Well if you are successful and get a full opening and your little up tick turns out to be a full blown surge,and they have to go back into lock down the next one will crush your economy and totally stop any chance of Trump recapturing the throne.
You really ready to chance that?
I would stay with the slow reopening,and people will just have to deal with it.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I don’t believe the wrecked economy will be as responsible for Trump’s defeat in November as his dismal failure in leadership regarding the epidemic. His attempts at press conference updates were nothing short of catastrophic. And his constant pronouncements conflicting with those of medical professionals have alienated public perception like nobody’s business. Trump had been lucky for 3 years in avoiding an actual crisis of national proportions, but this revelatory test of his leadership makes for conclusions which are inescapable.

jca2's avatar

For those states that have recently opened up, like GA and FL, it will be interesting to see, in about a month, if there is a spike in Coronavirus cases. Right now, it’s too early to tell. Looking at the news Saturday night, they showed a bar in Texas where there were dozens of patrons, close together, no masks, everyone whooping it up, happy to boost the economy with a beer! A friend on FB posted a street in the mid-West, lots of people, no masks, everyone out enjoying the great weather! It’s the weekend, what the hey? Live it up. Don’t live in fear!

To those that say opening up is more important than staying closed and “living in fear,” I always wonder if it doesn’t occur to them that dead people can’t go to work, dead people can’t go shopping, people who are in the hospital can’t frequent restaurants and bars, people who are in the hospital are using up sick time at work (if they’re lucky enough to have paid sick time).

SQUEEKY2's avatar

So is this more a political question, than a humanitarian one?

Demosthenes's avatar

I think it’s political because for many, it is as @seawulf575 described. That Republicans don’t care how many lives are lost as long as Trump is re-elected and Democrats don’t care how badly the economy is damaged as long as Trump is not re-elected. I think that’s an awfully cynical view on why anyone supports or opposes further economic restrictions. If people do feel that way, I’d think they are the minority. But I just can’t be that cynical, so I don’t know.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Well if it’s lives against the economy,I will take lives for a $1000 Alex.

anniereborn's avatar

Since all is okay as long as we social distance and wear masks; are hospitals going to allow visitors again, can those poor seniors in nursing homes finally see their loves ones?

Oh wait, that doesn’t matter, it doesn’t help the economy.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@anniereborn . . getting “old orange face” re-elected.

anniereborn's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Keeping loved ones away from seniors and sick people helps get Trump re-elected ?

stanleybmanly's avatar

The truth is that the odds against the economy recovering in time to boost Trump at the polls are rather spectacular, even were he to throw everything wide open today. His credibility on the matter is so skimpy that I doubt if it matters one way or another whether HE declares the epidemic ended and the country wide open for business. By now, who in their right mind accepts his word on ANYTHING? Even with his current stance that the country open up, how many people will nonetheless stay home and avoid activities requiring them to mingle. This thing is tumultuous, and our country will not be the same when we come out of this. This is the first real crisis to confront Trump, and believe me, his performance concerning it is going to bite him in the ass like nobody’s business. You can just visualize the political slogans: Trump—300, 000 DEAD!

SQUEEKY2's avatar

He has handled this crisis so bad from an outsiders view looking in,all he and fright wingers keep saying is he closed the borders to China early,look how well that worked.
He is taking no responsibility for anything during this crisis,and keeps saying so.
Wants everything reopened NOW, but meekly keeps saying it is up to each states Governor.
Says things in press conferences should look at ingesting disinfectants,the next day claiming that was just sarcasm, the people don’t want sarcasm they want leadership.
Now he is pulling the National guard at day 89 ,June 24 a Wednesday you know why so they wont qualify for benefits.
He is giving a 135 billion dollar bail out to multi millionaire real estate developers (think any of his companies might get a slice of that?)
And since this started has spent a whole 5 minutes giving condolences for the dead and their families.
And his base still love hime??

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I’m of the opinion even Melania won’t vote him and she’ll vote by mail !

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Wait a minute Wulfie are saying the lock down is hurting Trumps chance at re-election? and So is this more a political question, than a humanitarian one?. If you step back up to @stanleybmanly‘s comment, he was the one that said that Trump was willing to sacrifice as many lives as necessary to get the economy open for re-election purposes. I didn’t open this political view, I just questioned his bias…again. I asked the question because there has been much discussion on these pages as to whether opening up was the right thing to do and how to do it and when. I asked because it appears as if the idea that staying shut down was actually doing more harm than good. I cited a letter from 600 doctors and the most recent comments by Dr. Fauci as a reference point on this viewpoint.
Now, I notice that you didn’t bother calling Stanley on his political viewpoint, only Wulfie. I notice you helped turn this entire thread into that same biased political topic and have opened the door to many others jumping on it. I also notice you haven’t questioned any of them about the politicization of this question. You did, though, continue to push your keep-shut-down view, so I will give you congrats on at least partially keeping on topic.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

I AM NOT AGAINST REOPENING!!Just slowly with health professionals at the steering wheel.
You keep saying I want things kept shut, and you keep saying it then get mad if I put words in your mouth.
You kept saying you were not for wide opening the economy, and said slow and safe was fine you were not really for health professionals steering the reopening.
Then you came up with the economy being kept shut was doing damage to peoples health and well being , and your country has to get the economy open now for these peoples sake, but AGAIN I thought your economy was reopening so why this question?
AS for @stanleybmanly ‘s comment why should I question it I believe Trump would have no problem sacrifice peoples lives to get the economy open full right now.
I NEVER PUSHED KEEP IT SHUT DOWN, fuck you are a thick oneI did comment that if your little up tick turned out to be a full blown surge then you will see a shut down that will pale compared to the one your coming out of now.
Now is this question really a concern for peoples well being?
Or is this question political and a concern that if the economy doesn’t reopen full and soon it will hurt Trumps chance at re-election?

stanleybmanly's avatar

My “bias” aside, the reality is this. The arrival of this disease guaranteed catastrophe either way for Trump come November. He is going to wear this disease regardless of the path chosen. @seawulf575 ‘s stipulation that decisions to deal with the disease must be left to the individual states and cities is the actual path taken. Trump’s insistence on underplaying the significance and urgency in controlling the outbreak left the matter to the states by default. His role thus far has amounted in no small part to the contradicting and undermining of those Federal health agencies we rely on; agencies he was well on his way to dismantling at the outbreak of infections. Thus his loudly proclaimed prediction that the plague would last through April with a toll of perhaps 60,000 dead finds us at the end of May at 100,000 and climbing. In the face of these facts, Trump (like wulfie) insists that we open the country. But true to form, it indeed falls to the states to decide with some jurisdictions ignoring the fool while others comply—raising the question: what use is he? Wouldn’t we be just as well off or better WITHOUT this President? So we open up in the midst of rising death tolls just at the celebration of Summer. The beaches are crowded with sun worshipers weary of lockdowns, and we can only speculate on the probable toll. We’ve surpassed 100,000 and are apparently opening up. What do you anticipate by September? 300, 000; half a million? Maybe we should have a national pool. What do you think?

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 so Dr Fauci just came out and said it is more harmful to keep the shutdowns in place and that we need to open things up. That is your “health professional saying it should happen. Same with the 600 doctors I cited that say we need to open things back up. Those are health professionals saying that. And they aren’t saying it for economic reasons, they are saying it for health reasons. As for why I would think you would want to keep things shut down? _Well if it’s lives against the economy,I will take lives for a $1000 Alex. and “I looked at people dying and the best way to stop or at least slow it way down, the shut down and social distancing seem to be a good way.”.
Even the statement “I would stay with the slow reopening,and people will just have to deal with it.” shows you really don’t care what the shutdown does to people or how they are impacted…they’ll just have to deal with it.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly is that why Trump’s approval rating is higher than Obama’s was at this point his presidency? Because it guarantees catastrophe for Trump?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Ya got me, if your way of opening up turns the flood gates into a river of dying people then yeah I am for shutting it back down.
But if your so called up tick in the death numbers is just that then good,but I think your playing with fire at a full scale reopening quickly.
You are in your words trading one set of lives for the other, you seem to think people dying from the shut down are more important than the ones dying from the virus, that is where I have a big problem.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Okay so Trump rating is about 43 % that’s a real powerful position ! NOT

Obama’s January 2017 was 59%

Putin is leading you down the road of delusions

stanleybmanly's avatar

We’ll see how his approval rating does when his economy is in the toilet and the death toll climbs above 200,000

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Doesn’t matter @stanleybmanly The Don Father takes no responsibility for anything , and blames China.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 . . . . or Obama or Hillary or Mueller or somebody with a REAL college degree not like one his Daddy bought for him by giving the school a library building !!

Patty_Melt's avatar

My country has become a bunch of big pussies. A couple of months in partial isolation, I say partial, because almost nobody stayed home without getting out at least once a week for something, less than two months people everywhere are whining because they neeeeeed to get their hair done, can’t stand to have one more beer without a crowd around. They are sick of their kids. They want to go to a mall. Oh gawd I’m gonna die because a concert got cancelled.

Everybody just shut the fuck up.
When you spend years at home, because you can’t get out without help, and after a few times people get tired of helping, and you only get out for doctor appointments and once a month for groceries, then have an opinion. Until your life is like that, shut the fuck up.
I’m so sick of the bitching whose fault, and who fucked up, and my freedom is being trampled. Get out, or stay in, but quit taking such a fucking non issue and jabbering it into the ground, digging it back up, then back into the ground again.
Shut
The
Fuck
Up.
Goddamn bunch of whiny ass fucking babies.

Jonsblond's avatar

^High five!

Jonsblond's avatar

It has been exactly two weeks since our safer at home order was overturned here in Wisconsin. Today we set a record for one day total of new cases and also set a record for one day total of deaths.

Also, there is a county here with seven bartenders and servers who tested positive this week.

It’s not looking too good right now for my state.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@Jonsblond so just a bit more than a little up tick Wulfie said there would be?
Please stay safe among all the chaos.

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