General Question

janbb's avatar

Are you aware that the Supreme Court has now declared the EPA's right to regulate climate change illegal?

Asked by janbb (60647points) 1 month ago

The hits just keep on coming!

Here’s a link. If it doesn’t work just Google “Supreme Court and climate change”:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/30/us-supreme-court-ruling-restricts-federal-power-greenhouse-gas-emissions

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45 Answers

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Oh wel;l Putin got his money’s worth with Trump and stuffing the court.

jca2's avatar

It’s astounding. I feel like I’m living in a dystopian society.

jca2's avatar

I know the Republicans just love all this to death. Limiting abortion rights (don’t say it’s illegal! as I was told on another thread), limiting the EPA’s power, letting everyone have all kinds of guns regardless of age or mental status. The Republicans think this is all just ducky.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 I don’t think that’s true at all and it’s discouraging that you aren’t hearing the discontent of moderates.

You all know I’m Pro-Life but a lot of us are very concerned about the repercussions of this. Not killing babies comes from a place of love, they are not zygotes to us, but that does not mean we want women to suffer.

My LGBTQ friends are scared they’ll become targets again, and that pisses me off.

I’m on a fault line and the fracking in OK has caused rumbles for awhile now. You really think I want our beautiful fresh water and woods destroyed? They’re a part of our life here, not a place to visit a few times a year.

Granted I will likely not vote Democrat, but even Trump supporters are struggling with these issues, too. They’re making it very difficult to vote Republican with a clear heart.
Rest assured many of us are doing some soul-searching. A win is only a win if it’s for positive change.

Pandora's avatar

All the justices that voted for this should be forced to live near coal mines in W. Virginia. If you are totally okay with f-ing up the plantet then you should be the first one to reap the havoc you cause. Its time Dems pack the court with liberals that are not insane but will put a stop to this mess.
They should also put an age limit to the court and get all those old republican idiots out.

Lightlyseared's avatar

Do the Supreme Court know what the E and the P stand for?

JLeslie's avatar

I knew something was happening, because a friend of mine posted “good luck breathing in the future,” on her Facebook.

Obviously, the right wingers are going to be sending every court case they can up to the Supreme Court right now for all the things they have complained about for the past 50 years. This is their opportunity.

I still say it’s Russia and China brainwashing Americans into this stupidity.

We can only hope there is a backfire effect and conscientious Americans keep us on the right track.

Scary.

@KNOWITALL Many moderate Republican are struggling with everything that is happening. It will be interesting to see what they do. If they vote Democrat they can push a moderate Democrat in the primaries who might be similar to them on many issues.

Demosthenes's avatar

Yes, I’m aware. Fossil fuel proponents will be in for a rude awakening when they are no longer plentiful. But in the meantime any attempt to move beyond them is going to be stifled by the fossil fuel industry and the SCOTUS is in the palm of the industry.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie It’s kind of a ‘what have we done’ feeling. We are a bit shocked still.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL That’s interesting. I am surprised you would feel that way since you are so aware of how Democrats think. Are you just speaking for other Republicans? People are so often in their social circles with people who think like themselves they are completely unaware until a topic explodes. Also, I don’t know how Fox News is portraying the response by the Democrats to all of these Supreme Court rulings and other things that are happening, I think that matters too.

Democrats are frightened, that’s my most pat answer to why they’re are so worked up. We are very sad too. Many of us have admitted to crying watching what is happening. It feels like the dismantling of the country. It feels like tumbling towards third world status or worse a theocracy.

gorillapaws's avatar

What’s terrifying to me is the lack of introspection from “moderate Democrats” that have lead us to this point and will probably fuck us all. They can see Obama’s historic campaign based on progressive policy leading to massive turnout, and yet believe the way forward to victory is chasing moderate Republicans like @KNOWITALL who flat-out state:

“Granted I will likely not vote Democrat”

I’m not sure if they’re profoundly stupid or just brainwashed by neoliberal corporate media run by companies like Comcast and AT&T. If this country doesn’t learn that Trump didn’t win because of China, Putin, Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein, but because pursuing unpopular neoliberal policy and abandoning the left to chase “moderate” Republicans that won’t even vote for you at the end of the day after you’ve fucked your base over is a surefire way to Republican victory. The Clinton campaign encouraged the media to prop up Trump.

On a related note, Biden just put a justice on the Supreme Court with a shitty record on the environment—but hey, she not only has a vagina, but she ALSO has black skin!!! I“m sure black women will appreciate the representation and virtue signaling while they suffer the consequences of climate change…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’m speaking for my inner circle of moderates who usually vote Republican. And you should know since this is not a safe space, I rarely allow any vulnerability here.

But when my gay friend is crying saying we’re next, and another on TikTok says a guy said “almost open season on people like you’, it broke my heart.
I won’t claim to understand everyone’s point of view regarding abortions, but hearing a nurse in Texas lost her license for trying to save a life is counterproductive.

@gorillapaws Agreed.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I don’t know the Texas story.

@gorillapaws But, my moderate Republicans BFF’s did vote for Biden. I don’t think I would classify @KNOWITALL as moderate, because I think maybe religion gets in the way. I know she is not a religious zealot, I never would call her racist, but her religious and moral convictions make it extremely difficult for her to vote for the Democrats, and if you shift more left you won’t get her vote. Actually, those friends I’m talking about were all raised Catholic, they went through a time they were very religious, but never to the point of wanting religion in government ever. Now, they have all basically left the church.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Did they vote for Clinton? You realize that if Covid never happened, Biden would have been crushed right?

flutherother's avatar

This isn’t how I thought America was supposed to work. The elected President’s powers are being usurped by nine lawyers none of whom were voted in by the American public. It is just mind boggling that these lawyers can make protection of the environment illegal. What will they attempt next?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie You’re right. Although I am Catholic, I was raised hardcore Baptist. Even the Pope is talking out of both sides, trying not to refuse communion to Biden and other Pro-Choice Catholics.

It makes me curious if your friends were denied communion, would they change their votes?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws One of the three friends I am talking about we maybe should not count. Her parents were Democrats, but her husband was very religious, very Republican and she became that way too, they married right out of college. Then, after about ten years she started to move away from the hard right conservative bit. She is the most visibly outraged of us four right now. She has two daughters and half jokes about moving then to a very liberal state. I don’t think she will ever vote for any Republican ever again.

The other two, one of them really started to get annoyed when McCain chose Palin as his running mate. I know she didn’t vote that year. That was the beginning of the end for her I think.

The last one did vote for McCain, she is very women’s rights’ oriented and I think she really liked the idea of any woman breaking ceilings. I know she told her parents to shut of Fox News when covid hit (to your point about covid). I don’t know if she voted for Trump the first time, I know she voted for Biden.

They all three are blowing up my phone with the hearing and Supreme Court rulings. They all three think their governor, Whitmer, in MI is great.

My dad was a Republican for 40 years. He became a Democrat the second term of Bush. He will only votes for Democrats now.

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seawulf575's avatar

I saw they had ruled against the EPA and I believe it was the right decision. The EPA rulings were way too much overreach. If you read the decision it states as much. They decisions of the EPA, an unelected group working at the behest of the Executive Branch (as it was set up by Obama in this case) were well beyond what their powers should reach. Their ruling was that regulations of this magnitude need to be brought forth by Congress.

This is starting to be a common thread through many of their decisions AND through the reactions to them. This SCOTUS keeps pushing for control to be at the proper level of government. The media puts out headlines that put forth as negative a light as possible on the rulings so that people can believe they are doing something they really aren’t, or at least that isn’t the goal.

The EPA should never have been allowed the power that was given to them by Obama. For bureaucratic offices to create laws, enforce the laws and assign penalties for violating those laws you are eliminating our Democracy. You are allowing an authoritarian POTUS to side step Congress and your elected officials. I get the idea behind it, I do understand the term “Environmental Protection”, but with something this sweeping, it does need to come from Congress.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

So we’re headed to 50 nations and no USA Federal Government !

Why do we need the Supreme Court ?

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Not at all. Read what I wrote. They said it needed to rest with Congress…not the states.

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 So does NASA need a congressional act to approve each mission they undertake?

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kritiper's avatar

To a degree, it was inevitable. Until we humans figure out what to do about (and without) fossil fuels, we will keep using them. It can’t be helped! Don’t like it?? Have less children.

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seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws No, NASA doesn’t need congressional approval for each mission they undertake. But you are missing the key point. When NASA sends up a rocket, it isn’t a massive impact to all 50 states directly. When you are talking about something that changes our entire power output of the country and directly impacts interstate commerce in lots of ways, it does need Congress to weigh in and set the policies…not an unelected bureaucrat working for the Executive Branch.

Smashley's avatar

I’m OK with this ruling, and frankly, thinking a lot about the decisions of this term has started to calm me down. Yes we have an activist court, but the consistency in the rulings is that the judicial and executive branch have scooped up too much power while Congress has shirked it’s duty to legislate. It fucking sucks that people will be hurt in the churn, but the court thinks this is more important, and as crazy as it sounds, they could be right.

My instinct was that they should do things incrementally, but if you want to know what motivates them, the Federalist society is pretty open about its beliefs.

Literally every ruling this term would be fine, or more fine, if legislatures passed laws that reflected the will of the people. New York’s protection for abortion is stronger than it was last week, because the feds have less ability to change it.

As far as climate change goes, Obama was using EPA rules and extending executive power to limit carbon, because he and the legislature failed to pass a law that would do anything. Then Trump walked those back, and Biden reinstated them. What the fuck kind of way is that to address the challenge of the century?

I’ve been saying for years we need to kill the filibuster, because we need to get legislators back to making laws. They don’t even know how anymore, it would seem. It’s been three decades of posturing, bluffing and bullshit, and Congress has completely lost its ideological consistency. Kill the filibuster, pass some laws and answer to the people for the outcomes, like it should be.

seawulf575's avatar

@Smashley Killing the filibuster is one answer. For politicians to be adults and do their jobs instead of serving themselves is another. As adults they should be able to talk with each other and debate the pros and cons of ideas. As elected officials they should be able to make tough decisions. Congress cannot do this and it has been going on for decades. That is why the congressional approval is always so dismal.

Smashley's avatar

@seawulf575 – I see politicians as cynical realists who respond to their environment. It’s not enough to say they are doing it wrong, you have to change the rules and force them to change. The reality for too long is that both sides would rather have a fight than a change to the status quo. Politicians feel like they can predict and prepare for battles in the current world, to pass laws would create uncertainty for them, but drop the threshold for legislation to 50% and you can’t pretend like it’s the other side stopping you anymore.

There is equally a large amount of fear on both sides of what the other side would do if they ever passed laws again, which we all need to get over. Pass things, pay attention, be open to reform, and we’ll be doing ok.

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Demosthenes's avatar

I’m all for forcing Congress to “do their jobs”, but it will take more than simply eliminating the filibuster. Current gerrymandering practices ensure that Congress doesn’t “represent the people” in the first place. So I understand why there is fear of something like a nationwide abortion ban. Anyone who thinks that isn’t the end goal of the anti-abortion movement is being naïve. At some point you have to weigh the risks of federal laws being passed that you don’t like vs. the current “federalism” where states are mini-nations that pick and choose which rights they’d like to protect.

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes It actually will take term limits and limitations on their “retirements” before we get rid of the career politicians.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

This on the surface seems to be a case of “You can make the law or enforce the law but not both.”
This nation is in a terrible energy deficit right now and many don’t realize just how close large swaths of the nation are to load shedding, blackouts or brownouts. There have been real strides to shut down coal plants and frankly, this business with the EPA won’t stop it, so you can rest assured with this ruling. At least in certain parts of the country. I don’t know WTH they are thinking in Texas.

Coal plants are being shut down because they’re very expensive to operate and maintain. Utilities in the USA don’t really want them. The problem is analysts across the industry predicted electrical demand would fall so they ok’d the retirement of major base load coal plants. Well, demand increased. Now they fill the gap with gas turbines. They still emit greenhouse gasses but not as much. As renewables come online you would think that would help but the opposite is true. Renewables don’t come close to bridging the gap and they honestly cause more problems with system instability. Our ancient grid is not designed to remain stable as the sun or wind fluctuate causing wild swings in the system that must be compensated for. Oh, and natural gas is very expensive right now.
Start planning for higher energy bills and if you need electricity for anything critical think about getting a backup generator. It’s a total chit show. We are good twenty, perhaps thirty years out from having enough nuclear to cover demand. Renewables won’t do it, not in that timeframe.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

You Rep/cons go on about nuclear power but what about the waste from those plants that remains extremely toxic for like a thousand years?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Unless you’re willing to forgo electricity or burn fossil fuels there is no other real option that can supply the demand. The new nuke plants are going to be much, much safer.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Renewable energy has to a priority for research and development.
And @Blackwater_Park You’re fine with the waste from nuclear?
And just one more reason why I am glad that the Mrs’s and I chose not to have kids, we can’t kill the planet and each other fast enough.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 I agree R&D can’t come fast enough for renewables. Nuclear is a bridge technology. More like a lifeline. I’m not so ok with the waste from nuclear but it’s not as bad as you’re thinking. Not even close. It’s nowhere near as bad as continuing to burn fossil fuels. New reactors, particularly macro scale plants have a very low waste profile and can use reprocessing. If safety is your primary concern, SMRs (small modular reactors) are built under ground and fueled for life. These are not you’re daddy’s nuke plants from the 60’s.

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