General Question

elbanditoroso's avatar

What is the appeal of the "trad wife" movement?

Asked by elbanditoroso (33061points) 2 weeks ago

Do you know any “trad wives”?

According to Wikipedia, “A tradwife (a neologism for traditional wife or traditional housewife), in recent Western culture, typically denotes a woman who believes in and practices traditional sex roles and marriages. Many tradwives believe that they do not sacrifice women’s rights by choosing to take a homemaking role within their marriage. Some may choose to leave careers to focus instead on meeting their family’s needs in the home.[4]

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83 Answers

janbb's avatar

The appeal? The appeal is presumably that the woman has chosen a role that she is comfortable with and in which she feels feels fulfilled. If it works for her and her family, who needs to judge it?

Demosthenes's avatar

“Trad wife” isn’t just a term for a woman who chooses to be a homemaker. It’s an alt-right LARP.

There’s a difference between being a homemaker and fulfilling traditional roles and being part of this very online “movement” which quickly gets gross (not to mention the men who are perpetually searching for the appropriately submissive, often non-Western, woman).

Sometimes I forget the average age of Fluther is like 70. Oh, you poor naive souls…

janbb's avatar

And sometimes I forget how snotty young people can be. JK.

filmfann's avatar

A former friend used to say that the advantage of marriage was that he could still count on having sex when he struck out at the bar.

smudges's avatar

^^ just ewwww!

ragingloli's avatar

It is all about right wing men wanting submissive, subservient women, who do all the household work, cooking, washing, cleaning, who are always available for sex, willing or not, who do not talk back, and will just accept getting physically abused.
In short, what the conservative man wants is a mother who he can also fuck and domineer.
Guaranteed they will lose their shit though, when it is pointed out to them that they are expected to be the sole bread winner in that arrangement.

Pandora's avatar

Yeah, that horse is out of the barn. The only ones that would appeal to are women who loathe the idea of working and believe that their man will forever stay faithful and support them. They change their minds though when he files a divorce to trade her in for someone bright and shiny. Some guys may stay in the marriage because they know they have a doormat wife at home who is afraid to leave because she has no work skills. And so he can beat her anytime he wants and have sex with all her friends if he’s good-looking enough or makes enough money and go home and have her wash and clean and cook after him.

I’m not anti-marriage or staying home to raise kids. I didn’t work until my kids were in school full-time. But I didn’t see it as my husband’s duty to be the only one who worked. I saw us as a family unit and we each did what we could to help us grow financially. He wasn’t afraid to help out at home either when I needed help with the house or the kids. I had to nudge him a lot (okay nag) but I saw raising our kids as a two-person job.

It’s how my parents were and that was before women were burning their bras. It often takes two incomes to raise a family now. And I had no inkling of living a sexist life. We were a family. I also was raising a son and daughter and I needed us both to be a good example for how they should be in a marriage. Equal partners.

seawulf575's avatar

It is amazing to see how jaded so many are on these pages. “Trad wife” is a short-hand term for traditional wife. It is a bit of a movement coming back (it would have to be coming back or else it couldn’t be “traditional”. Many men see the appeal and there is a growing number of women that are starting to see it too. Traditional gender roles in a relationship have appeal for many. Everyone knows what is expected out of each person. It does away with a lot of the flightiness that has come to define relationships these days.

Forever_Free's avatar

I do not know any. Seems like it is a natural for lazy entitled people.

KNOWITALL's avatar

If your husband is successful and you can stay home, raise your children, food prep healthy meals, volunteer, work out, etc..why wouldn’t some women choose that? Many women jump at the chance, here at least.
The article specifically mentioned its gaining popularity in the black community, which I see as a sign of equality in opportunity. Not everyone can afford it, especially in the current economy.

I do see a few negatives, some women are lazy and take advantage by not cleaning, or putting effort in with children or meals, lots of alcoholics, or just sleep/watch tv, have affairs, or shop every day. Some men isolate women at home, maybe don’t allow them out of the house without the man. Abuse is not uncommon but lessening in the last few decades.
In the end, as always, it depends on the people involved.

gorillapaws's avatar

Trad wives remind me of Cornel Fitt’s wife, Barbara in “American Beauty.” At least that’s the fantasy for some of these toxic INCELS in the man-o-sphere: a submissive punching bag.

And my mom was a stay-home mom for a large part of my life, but she studied design in college, and did go to work for a time when my sister and I were in school. She wasn’t just the slave of my father as I hear described by these guys pushing the idea.

jca2's avatar

I have a friend who is in a relationship like that. It didn’t have a label, it was just how she and her husband (or should I say “is” and not “was” because they’re still married) felt things should be. She’ll argue with him, but it seems like in the end, his way is the way that things go.

It’s not for me but if it works for people, to each his own.

LostInParadise's avatar

Conservatives can’t stand any ambiguity. The trad wife movement appeals to them because it provides husbands and wives with separate and distinct roles. For liberals, the trad wife role is one end of a spectrum of possibilities that allow women to be wage earners and have men share in domestic chores.

JLeslie's avatar

I started watching the documentary series about Martha Stewart, and one comment made was during the time when women were fighting for and making significant strides in the business world, here comes Martha who makes an empire out of showing women how to be domestic. I’m paraphrasing there.

If you read the Millionaire Next Door or the sequel (not sure which it was) there are lots of statistics. One stat is most wealthy people are married. Another stat is many wealthy people the wife takes over making the “house” run smoothly, and the husband can focus on his career, but I would say mostly it is agreements between the couple for efficiency, and doesn’t have to be traditional rolls throughout the marriage.

When it is traditional rolls and the woman can’t evolve or change her mind, that’s when it seems detrimental. She becomes wholly dependent, and eventually I think that is a bad spot. Moreover, the burden on the husband can be unfair or difficult too.

When it’s a push among a community, like a church or Stepford, it’s horrible, because each couple should decide the best for their situation and it can change over time. Expectations from the community or society is peer pressure, and I don’t like that.

Disclaimer: I worked full time for many years, but the last 15 years only worked part-time or not at all only volunteering, and it is a luxury. I would never say I work as hard as people who work full time, I know what that is like.

My husband wishes I made more money, but at least I don’t spend a lot.

JLeslie's avatar

I didn’t really answer the Q. The appeal is less responsibility, not having to hold down a job, and some women love cooking, cleaning, organizing, planning, being a mom, nurturing their family, and/or taking pride in running a smooth household. Just to name a few reasons. There is work and talent that goes into housekeeping and helping all members in the family be successful, however success is defined. I see most women plan the vacations, research the needs of their children, it’s a division of labor having rolls defined, whether they are traditional rolls or rolls the two people create.

janbb's avatar

@LostInParadise GA.

@all I didn’t realize that it was a “movement” when I answered the Q but I can see that once it becomes one, it could lead to the Stepford wife syndrome of women we see standing beside their conservative men.

@JLeslie Maybe bagels would be better than “rolls”!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws…..‘slave of my father’

I don’t know any women who chose to stay home who would describe their life choices that way. It’s almost laughable to me quite honestly. It’s a privelage as described to me.

Some men do make it a requirement of marriage but that’s often agreed to prior to a ssrious relationship. The uber-religious faction believe it’s biblical, too.

Demosthenes's avatar

My mom has a graduate degree from Stanford. She’d be the first to admit she preferred not to work. She chose being a housewife and raising a family over a career (though she was also heavily involved in the PTA and other volunteer organizations, so it’s not as if she never left the home). My mom was a homemaker, but not a trad wife. The latter is more closely tied to religious conservatism, anti-feminism, anti-LGBT, all the usual trappings. And when you see it from the men’s side, it often involves the view that Western women have been corrupted by feminism, so they must seek out “trad wives” from the Middle East or Asia (with often immense disregard for how those cultures and societies function).

janbb's avatar

It does seem that the more we slice and dice ourselves into different movements and identity groups the more we polarize America and contribute to its decline. How sad it all becomes!

jca2's avatar

I live in an affluent area, and the majority of the moms in the school district don’t work. They drive the kids to school, do a lot of volunteering with elementary school activities and committees, do yoga, work out, meet at Starbucks, are home waiting for the kids when they get off the school bus at 3:30, and are home with dinner or take-out when the husband comes home. They have cleaning ladies, though, so I don’t know how that fits in with what’s being talked about in the post. I used to say that when I was working, I felt like those moms were the “inner circle” and the working moms, like I was, would always be in a rush, picking up the kids from an after school program or on the weekends at a sports event or birthday party, and that was it. The non-working moms were and are all meeting at workouts and for coffee, and help each other by picking up each others’ kids when necessary.

JLeslie's avatar

@janbb Lol. Role. Thanks.

canidmajor's avatar

Because, you know, being a SAHM isn’t any work at all. <eyeroll>

JLeslie's avatar

@canidmajor Who said that?

Blackberry's avatar

It’s pretty obvious…I hope this isn’t becoming a common term, as it’s only used by incels and misogynists that are upset women have the choice to not feed and please them sexually and decide to do something else with their lives.

seawulf575's avatar

This entire issue is a by-product of what our society has become. What a relationship is. What men and women want in a relationship. Society has made it so that a SAHM is something to be avoided, is somehow demeaning, is somehow not living up to your potential. Women, therefore, want to be strong, independent types. They want a guy that is at least 6’ tall, great shape, and makes well over $250,000/yr that will “keep” them in the style they think they deserve. But they fail when asked what they bring to a relationship. And if a woman is the “strong, independent one”, they generally bring attitude with them. Most men that are successful (the only type this kind of woman wants), they don’t want to have to battle with their spouse over every little thing in some sort of warped power struggle.

My parents were traditional, though mom did work when she had to. They both agreed that she would help with the bills while dad got his architect degree/license. Then she stayed at home. Right up until dad started falling apart and then she worked up to 3 jobs to keep the family going. The point is that was their relationship. They set goals for the family, not for one or the other. They did what they had to in reaching those goals, or at least trying. Mom was a “trad wife” for many years. She seemed happy and was good at it. But being in that role was her choice and wasn’t set in stone. It all came down to what their standards and goals were.

There is another aspect of trad wives: Passport Bros. Passport Bros are those guys that are going to, usually Asia, to get wives. The women there are raised to traditional values in a relationship. I’ve known quite a few guys that had Asian wives. The women were very polite, they kept a very nice home, raised good children, and didn’t take any crap off the guy. But usually the guy had no reason to blow them crap anyway. For all of you trashing Trad Wives, you might want to ask why so many men are looking elsewhere (other than the Western nations) for wives.

Demosthenes's avatar

@seawulf575 “Passport bro” is just a euphemism for “sexpat”.

They’re looking there because they fetishize “eastern” women as submissive and project their insecurities about manliness and what their role and contributions (as well as that of a woman) should be in a relationship. There’s nothing commendable about these men.

I don’t know any women who are demanding that their husband make at least $250,000 and keep them decked in Louis and Gucci. But that just betrays how “online” this whole discourse is. If all your relationship information comes from TikTok, then yeah, that’s about accurate. That’s not how it works in the real world.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@Blackberry if women have the choice to work or not work, why don’t they have the same level of choice about whether or not to bear a child?

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackberry @elbanditoroso asked the question. So since she started the term here, is she misogynistic or an incel?

canidmajor's avatar

@Demosthenes said about his mother: “She’d be the first to admit she preferred not to work.”

And you “the appeal is less responsibility”

Congratulations to you and the others who have not actually raised children 24/7/365 that can loftily speak to this issue. The Wikipedia article cited made it sound like more people are opting for this as a return to traditional values, without mentioning that childcare costs are often higher than what non-professional women can earn. Unless you have family and community set-ups that can take on the role, it can be crippling.

Yes, some women do it well and enjoy it, but the “traditional” part is bull shit, as that indicates that the breadwinner in the household has the power.

Look up the costs of childcare and maid service, to start. In too many cases,the “trad wife” is saving the husband a boatload of money.

elbanditoroso's avatar

I wonder if @seawulf575 realizes that I am male…

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes Or they are just guys that are tired of the feminist crap the Western women bring. But I’m curious…what do you know about what straight guys want?

Demosthenes's avatar

@canidmajor My comment was not at all about housework not being “work”. My use of the word “work” was referring to paid employment, something my mom did during high school and college but was not particularly keen on after that. By that point, she knew what she wanted to do with her life, and it was not to work a paid job. That was not me saying raising a family is not work. In fact, quite the opposite.

@seawulf575 Yeah, they’re tired of women who have a will of their own and won’t be their submissive Oriental sex slave/mommy-wife. The kind of men who think women shouldn’t be able to initiate a divorce.

And how I do know? I have straight friends. How’s that?

ragingloli's avatar

Same reason why perverts go to Thailand to “indulge” in underage prostitution, really.

canidmajor's avatar

I actually realized that, @Demosthenes, and considering what you had said about her I am quite sure that she was no stranger to work. But phrasing it the way you did perpetuates the myth.
It is not inconsequential to add “outside the home”.

janbb's avatar

Sorry, I just have to quip here. Anyone who thinks that marrying an “Oriental” woman guarantees subservience has yet to meet a Filipina wife!

Demosthenes's avatar

@canidmajor Fair enough. But it’s also fair not to assume the worst possible interpretation of what I say.

canidmajor's avatar

Then “say” better.

Demosthenes's avatar

Maybe use your common sense next time.

JLeslie's avatar

@canidmajor Are you really going to compare a person who works 40+ hours a week and does at minimum half of the house chores and runs around with her kids and cooks meals to a woman who doesn’t have to be at work all day and doesn’t have to be worried about being fired if she isn’t on time or doesn’t perform at work? Sorry, holding down a full-time job AND taking care of the house and kids is simply more work than not having a full time job. Unless, you have a lot of help at home.

I never said taking care of the household and kids isn’t “work” but it is a luxury to not have to work. Most people don’t have that luxury.

Not working does have downsides of course, but the Q was asking about the appeal.

I am giving credit to the women who do work and take care of their families. They barely get a minute!

I am not trying to diminish women who don’t work. I actually think having defined roles makes marriage easier, with the caveat that the roles can change.

Blackberry's avatar

I’m not a senator/politician…you would have to ask them….if I’m understanding your question correctly….I can’t control how the government and society treat women’s productive rights.

@seawulf575 Asking a question doesn’t equal being an incel….especially using the slightest modicum of nuance, I could tell the question was asked without an ulterior motive, and is instead curiosity.

Blackberry's avatar

Also just to clarify…there’s nothing wrong with being a traditional wife….

the issue is the term “traditional wife” has recently been used by incels to make jokes like : “This woman lives in NYC and does nothing but work and drink, yet this other woman in Iowa has her husband’s dinner ready every day on time and makes crafts with the kids. Who would you rather marry?”

Demosthenes's avatar

@Blackberry Right. This question asked about the trad wife movement, which is distinct from simply being a traditional wife, SAHM, homemaker, etc. If it had asked “what is the appeal of being a stay-at-home mom?” I think the answers might’ve been quite different. The trad wife movement is a right-coded niche and is not simply a synonym for “housewife”. And that’s part of what’s frustrating about this whole thing: anyone who criticizes the movement is now accused of hating stay-at-home moms and thinking they’re lazy anti-feminist layabouts, which is not at all the case.

Blackberry's avatar

Yes, the continued campaign of desperate people to pretend “Hey nothings going on here, we just want America to be white and traditional, what’s the big deal? It’s a totally innocent movement.”

KNOWITALL's avatar

I see it’s trended since 2016, is it still even a thing?

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes ” I have straight friends.” so I can tell you how gay guys think and what they want because I have gay friends? Sure you want to go there?

Demosthenes's avatar

Well I’m sure if you could you’d enthusiastically tell me about all the “straight acting” gay guys you know who hate pride and want to protect traditional marriage…

seawulf575's avatar

@janbb I took a karate class when I was in the Navy. The instructor was a civilian who was married to a Pilipino woman. I became good friends with this instructor as we actually worked together on base as well as in class. His wife was very polite and took care of him and the house very well. One day he came into work with a huge black eye. When asked, he said he came home drunk and his wife was all over him about coming home late and being drunk. He said “I told her “Ah shut up!”” and that was the last thing he remembered. She decked him flat and left him there on the floor. But the next day he apologized and she was back to being the same person she was before.

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KNOWITALL's avatar

Maybe we can all just agree that those people are trash humans, using it derogatorily. They probably hate gays, Taylor & Kelce, and kittens, so are not worth our time or energy. :)

Blackberry's avatar

This stuff has to be called out, sorry if it offends you, gonna have to deal with it.

It’s pretty clear what some bad/evil apples are trying to do to a previously innocuous word.

If someone makes a meme or joke depicting a “modern” woman as high on drugs, having green hair, and having African American babies….versus a “traditional” conveniently always blonde haired, blue eyed woman in a dress being nothing but a pure, good mother….the message the artist is trying to send is clear as day.

As someone else pointed out, some older people may not be aware what the word means to the “movement” versus normal well adjusted people.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “I don’t know any women who chose to stay home who would describe their life choices that way. It’s almost laughable to me quite honestly.”

I’m going to respond with a quote from @seawulf575 “they generally bring attitude with them. Most men that are successful (the only type this kind of woman wants), they don’t want to have to battle with their spouse over every little thing in some sort of warped power struggle.”

This is the slavery part. The objection isn’t staying home, it’s having a submissive bitch that does as she’s told. The INCELS are fantasizing about having a sex slave that is obedient. They keep repeating nonsense that men don’t value women with opinions or ideas or have passion for things beyond serving their family.

Pandora's avatar

@seawulf575 The traditional life is hardly obtainable now. Both male and female in the US no longer expect to keep up with the Jones’s, now they want a Kardashian lifestyle. Only people can barely make enough to keep up with the Jones’s today on one salary for a family. Those that can are usually living in a more inexpensive place, or had the good fortune of having a good education they could afford. But most are in debt to that good education. People use to be able to leave college with a small debt and marry and afford a home. Now they live at home with Mom and Dad trying to pay off their loans that cost more than a mortgage. They can’t even afford to get married. That is the reality of today versus yesterday. Especially if the wife has a school loan to pay back as well. They both have to work to pay off their debts.
Honestly I think its too much pressure to put on anyone. If you are a team, you are a team. Meaning you both do your best to raise your family and it shouldn’t depend on one person to bring home the bacon and another to raise the children. Both my parents worked and they split the day so someone was always home. My mom worked during the day and my dad worked at night. We had a great life. It wasn’t a traditional life but it was wonderful. The problem with Trad life I think is that people want to go back to the time when women handled all the home issues and Dads were the final and ultimate voice because they controlled the cash. Often the women were abused and feared leaving because they felt they had no value other than just being a wife and housemade and nanny, and no one knew.

People are glorifying traditional life because they want to put all of the wrongs in the world as being a problem. After all, women no longer stayed at home. It’s a push to push women out of the workplace and put power back in the hands of men.

cheebdragon's avatar

“Women who associate with the label exist on a spectrum of sorts, with varying ideas about what it means to be a tradwife and varying reasons for promoting those ideas. Estee C. Williams, who is 24 and posts tradwife content on TikTok, said she doesn’t consider herself to be “super traditional” but implements traditional gender roles in her life and relationship – which she frames as a personal choice. She said she isn’t concerned with whether others adopt those same values, but is merely sharing her lifestyle with others who want to embark on a similar path.

“I love the ’50s aesthetic with my own modern twist on homemaking,” she told CNN. “The difference is that we have the choice. Women can choose not to be homemakers or work, or have a mix.”

British author and blogger Alena Kate Pettitt, meanwhile, has written on her website The Darling Academy about what she feels tradwives are not, while noting that her intent isn’t to indoctrinate other women.

“Though a traditional housewife may submit to her husband, she is not considered of lesser importance to him,” she wrote in one post. By Pettitt’s definition, a tradwife isn’t opposed to women’s rights but “openly rejects the side of feminism that is man-hating, takes a victim mentality in all things, and promotes that ‘The Future is Female.’”

And she writes that a tradwife doesn’t want to go back to the 1950s, but “she simply likes that time because it was the last time her occupation was celebrated in mainstream media.”

gorillapaws's avatar

Estee: “George, I was thinking…”
George: “Now there you go again, Estee. You know thinking is for men to do. Now come on over and blow your husband like a good wife…”
Estee; ”...but….”
George: “No buts about it Estee! I’ve had a long hard day at the factory and I don’t want to hear your attitude! I’m the man of this house. What I say goes!”

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackberry And maybe calling out the intolerant idiots that think that way needs to be done so we can deal with it. Sorry if it offends you.

Your arrogance in this is amazing. Someone opts to choose a lifestyle you think is demeaning and you start with the name calling and labelling. You are part of the problem. What you are missing in your rush to squash a thought you don’t like is that “Trad Wife” is a term from today’s society. You blame the men, yet you conveniently forget the women are willing participants in a relationship like this. A guy doesn’t go to the bar, throw a girl over his shoulder, take her home and make her a slave. That is your inference of what happens. How very small minded of you.

If people get into a relationship like this, why are you so threatened by it? You go into instant attack mode against it. It isn’t your relationship, it’s theirs. Why are you so threatened?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Actually, a lot of women who take a “submissive” role are groomed into the position by family, society, a particular man, or their church. Many woman have low self esteem and wind up in relationships and then it’s hard to get out. So many young women are easily wooed by controlling men. The men make the teens or women feel wanted and attractive.

Men who expect women to be obedient and dependent are more likely to be extremely controlling and even sometimes dangerous.

I realize there are Christians who use the term submissive and the wife works and it isn’t always as people think of it, but just in generalities the culture tries to quiet women and gives men the final world. When people need to worry about their religious beliefs regarding their place in a relationship they are boxed in. No different than religion telling someone who to vote for. Do you want to go to heaven or not? Do you want to help your family and our country or not? Do you want your religious community that means so much to you (not you personally in any of this) to accept you or not? People aren’t always aware how much outside influences are influencing them.

For me, it’s the opposite. I’m more judged for not working. Like I’m not fulfilling my potential.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Many women do have low self esteem, this is true. So do many men. But you are missing the key component to the “trad wife” view: it is a knowing, agreeable relationship between two people. Now, do people change over time? Sure. But the idea isn’t one of submission. That’s what the opponents always say. It is agreement on what goals are important between the two and how to best achieve those goals.

Men and women are very different things. They think differently, they have different strengths and weaknesses, different needs, and they both bring very important parts to a marriage. This is where so many detractors fall flat. They want to ignore all that. They want to try to make reality into something it is not. You can see that even on these pages. The detractors want to brand people that espouse these ideals as being somehow defective. They want to dictate how people should feel and how they should act. Just the thought of two people opting for traditional values makes them feel threatened for some unknown reason. Maybe they are afraid that those people that accept these values end up happier and more successful than those that do not. That would scare them that their entire belief system might be wrong.

As for Christians in a marriage, it is important to fully understand what the bible says about the roles of the man and the woman in that marriage. And yes, it does give specifics to the role of the man. Here are a couple good sites that explain some of that:

In both men and women, Christians are supposed to recognize the sanctity of God in the marriage. Their marriage is a creation of a team to implement that sanctity. Women are supposed to create a home that supports this. She is supposed to support her husband emotionally and through her efforts to create a good home. The man is supposed to be the head of this house. This doesn’t mean he now has a slave. He is supposed to self-sacrificing. He is supposed to be dedicated to his wife and her happiness. He is supposed to provide for the family. He is supposed love his wife and to be kind to her. It is a partnership, not a dictatorship.

Are there men that feel they are getting a slave? Sure. There are bad Christians out there, just as there are bad Jews, bad Muslims, bad Atheists, etc. But those embracing these “trad wife” relationships are trying to push what is supposed to be per the bible, though it is not a religious movement. They are recognizing the benefits of the defined roles.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 The problem is, from the various religions, in the strictest sense, the women don’t get to change and evolve. The men are boxed in too. I realize not all Christians (or Muslims or Jews) adhere to nor interpret the expectations in a very strict way.

I go back to defined roles are good as long as they can change and be renegotiated.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I view the marriage relationship in a very simple way. I love my wife. I worked for years and she didn’t, though she was working when I met her and continued for a period. But we shared goals. I’ve never considered her to be my slave. I’ve never looked at her as anything than my equal. Different roles, yes, but both equally important to a good home. Yes we disagree on things sometimes…that’s just human. But trying to listen to her view and her trying to listen to mine are keys to a good marriage. That is sort of the view of those favoring “trad wife” ideals. @cheebdragon gave a good link explaining this as well.

What I don’t understand is the anger and vehement attacks on this.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I believe someone mentioned the online comments from these ‘men’ ere demeaning the career woman or women who chose a different path in life.
I can see myself and @JLeslie in their crosshairs, which made me loom a little closer. We don’t have children (a womans purpose) and many people, women included, feel some kind of way about that. I’ve seen it even here on this site by men especially.

Whichever choice a woman makes, wife, mother, career, single for life., etc.. We belong to ourselves and a man’s approval is not necessary. The bible also says a woman should submit to her husband if he submits to God. I question that these men talking disrespectfully are Godly, thus undeserving of a submissive wife. Just my take.

RocketGuy's avatar

They want a submissive wife anyway.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s the lack of choice and the grooming or expectation of girls to become wives and mothers. How can you tell girls they can be anything they want to be and to explore all careers and interests, and also tell them they should be submissive to their husband and not have a career? Which path will they follow? The two are hard to combine if there is an expectation a woman will give up her career when she gets married. My MIL was not allowed to go to secondary school, because her dad said girls don’t need to go to school, they get married. Do we want to go back to that? A close friend of mine was not allowed to go to college, her parents raised her Jehovah Witness. She applied and was accepted to college, but they didn’t allow her, and made her go door to door to recruit, and kind of set her up in marriage, although she wasn’t forced.

Many women go through their life living what their parents expected from them and then living a life that supports their husband’s desires, and they barely know what they want for themselves. It is insidious and happens even to women who are educated and worldly. Girls and women very often don’t have dreams and goals like men. Hopefully, that is changing with the younger generations.

The traditional roles also push the whole idea of a marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I know gay men who are in their 50’s and older who got married either because they were trying to fit societal norms, or because they really thought everyone gets married. Most of them wound up cheating or leaving their wives, and sometimes there were kids involved.

ragingloli's avatar

That is exactly it.
No one here has a problem if you decide to be a stay at home mum (or dad for that matter).
At the core of the “trad-wife” movement is the narrative that it is morally wrong to not be a stay at home mum. The narrative that a woman that has a career is not a real woman. The narrative that a woman that chooses not to have children is not a real woman. The insinuation that they are degenerates (illustrated by the meme of the blue haired, tattooed, drug addicted feminist woman) if they do not adhere to “traditional gender roles”. They do not offer “This is a choice you can make, and it is totally fine if you decide otherwise”, it is “this is what you should do, know your place, and if you do not, you are worth less.”

RocketGuy's avatar

… not a “valued” woman…

Blackberry's avatar

I’m only threatened by a few bad apples trying to slowly normalize oppression.

I shouldn’t have to explain to you that there’s mountains of evidence showing some people like to hold power over others.

There’s nothing else to say. I’m sorry it hurts for you to acknowledge that in 200,000 years, a bad spouse existed. It’s not up to you to believe it or not. It’s just a thing that happens, and you will never stop us from spreading information that could possibly save another person from ruining their life by picking the wrong person.

Blackberry's avatar

He probably has no idea women’s forums are telling each other “be careful around really conservative men.”

He thinks we’re making it all up lol.

Blackberry's avatar

From a forum specifically for women:

“If I see “conservative” in their dating profile I just know they’re bad news bears. I’ll avoid even if they have “moderate.” Or if they claim to be apolitical. Or if they like Joe Rogan or Elon Musk.”

kruger_d's avatar

On the surface this movement confirms the choices and values of women who work in the home. That’s fine. But if you read be tween the lines they imply that working wives and single, independent, child-free women are at best, compromising their families and communities, and at worst amoral, sinful, shameful, or selfish.

Demosthenes's avatar

@Blackberry There’s definitely a type: liking Joe Rogan and Elon Musk, claiming to be apolitical, using the word “grindset”, supporting RFK Jr., listing The 48 Rules of Power as one of your favorite books, having a profile pic of an ancient Roman, etc. It’s all the same thing in the end.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL The only one that came close to demeaning women that choose to work or to choose another path was me. It was when I said that many men these days are tired of the crap they get from Western women. But that crap isn’t just working or being independent, though that brings some of it. Believe it or not, men are demeaned in today’s society quite a bit. Look at the comments on these pages as a perfect example. Men are automatically assumed to be domineering Neanderthals that only want slaves and punching bags. There is no discussion, to effort to dig into things…that is the assumption, it is treated as fact, and the crowds roar in approval.

If a woman wants to work outside the home, have a career, not have children…all that is fine. And if you can find a guy that goes along with that, even better. But every choice brings its own challenges. If you were in a marriage like that and were suddenly single, trying to find a guy might be more difficult. To be successful in a career outside the home changes the way you think. It has to. You have to be more decisive, generally have to be in charge, have to be the sole decision on making the standards for those around you and all that molds your thinking and personality. BUT, if you take that same thinking and personality and put it together with a man that is in the same kind of position, there is bound to be friction. He wants one thing and you want another…debate over who is going to get what they want. He has something that he absolutely wants in a relationship and you absolutely don’t want it…argument over who is right. This becomes a very competitive situation. If you go to work all day and have to be in competition and battles and stress and then come home at the end of the day and it starts all over with your SO, it wears you down. It takes two extraordinary people to make that work.

When I was younger and was starting into my career, if I met some woman that made a ton of money and wanted me to be a stay at home dad, I’d have jumped at the chance. I cook well, was raised to make sure the cleaning was done well, I was a good dad…I’d have been able to do it all except for actually getting pregnant. It isn’t a gender role issue; it’s a compatibility issue. It’s an issue about what values you want in a relationship.

And as for having children or not, again that is up to the couple. I’ve known couples that didn’t want children or couldn’t get pregnant. It worked okay for them. I, personally, was never sure if I wanted children…until we had our first. Raising children was one of the hardest and most rewarding things I’ve ever done. But again, that is my thinking and isn’t for everyone.

seawulf575's avatar

@Blackberry Ahhh…so anyone that sees the lunacy brought by those trying to slowly normalize extreme behavior is the problem. Kinda what I thought. You just don’t want anyone breaking up the plan. Got it.

And you are right…bad spouses have existed. You’ve had men that dominated their wives horribly. You’ve had guys that beat their wives. But then you’ve also had wives that cheated on their husbands. Wives that beat their husbands. Wives that dominated their husbands. I find it very telling that you conveniently ignore that. You pick one side of the equation and that is all. Anything else is just wrong. That is your arrogance.

I’m not spreading anything other than choice. You know…the choice you talk about but refuse to let others have? You are the one spreading misinformation, not I. My stance is clear from the start…if someone wants to have a “trad wife” that is their choice. It does require a woman that wants to be a “trad wife” though. But if they find each other, degrading them is just horrible. It is trying to normalize lunacy because you don’t want anyone to have a different view than yours, even when their choices have nothing to do with you.

seawulf575's avatar

Oh, and @Blackberry this is what I’m talking about with the problems today’s “ideals” bring us. Yep, it’s a liberal woman bemoaning the fact that she wants conservative behavior in a guy but liberal thinking too. The two are not compatible.

seawulf575's avatar

@Demosthenes Again, you are talking about things you are not qualified in the least to understand. I’m pretty sure you would say I am that type, but I don’t listen to Joe Rogan, I find Elon Musk interesting because of his innovative thinking, Have no idea there is a book entitled “48 Rules of Power”, have heard some of what RFK Jr says that I like and some I don’t, and I never claim to be apolitical. I’ve very conservative and have distinct political views. Basically I shoot a hole in everything you have to say. Because you are laboring from assumptions and preconceived ideas. What if some straight guy started telling you all about how all gay men think? Would you think that person was intelligent?

JLeslie's avatar

With these last few posts I keep thinking about the Barbie movie.

@seawulf575 You truly do want a submissive wife in the definition of Webster. I used to give excuses for that word among Evangelicals, saying they define it in their own way, but you basically laid out wanting to be able to have the final word and be able to dismiss the desires of your wife. Just wow.

I assume you would say something like you want to give her things that she wants and don’t dismiss her, but that creates a father daughter dynamic and dependency. She maybe doesn’t have many dreams or goals, except what revolves around you, so it works.

A friend of mine was in a marriage like this, her husband is the pastor of a church, and then she decided she wanted to become an industrial engineer. Her husband initially said no. He is American and she is Venezuelan, and probably at first was stereotypically catering to her husband. To her credit she said she’s going to school, and if he wants to leave that’s his choice. He fundamentally believes what keeps marriages together forever is commitment, so he stayed. She now has a masters in industrial engineering and has been working in the field for over ten years.

If being married means giving up what someone really wants, that is not going to make for a happy marriage. As my counselor friend says, if a spouse is an obstacle it isn’t good. Being married should enrich someone’s life, it should be the same or hopefully better than being single. If being married is more work or more depressing than being single, why be married?

Years ago studies showed married men were the happiest as a group. It went married men, single women, single men, married women. Married women were at the bottom for happiness. Maybe now that has changed since younger generations are different in their expectations of marriage.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Nope. I don’t want a submissive wife. But I don’t want everything to be a battle either. I want a partner. I want someone that is on my side. Being on my side also means telling me when I’m making mistakes. We should be able to help each other like this. I have never told one of my wives that she couldn’t work. I’ve never even suggested that. I always gave them the option…if they want to work, they can.

But at the same time, I refuse to give up my rights, I refuse to become a doormat, I refuse to be taken advantage of. That is what killed my first marriage. I married a woman that didn’t want to work, that said she wanted to stay at home and keep house and eventually raise the children. That was what she said. I told her she could work if she wanted and not if she didn’t. I would make enough money in my job to support us. Over time it things became extremely one-sided and got even worse when children came along. I was working rotating shift work and was working 10–12 hour days with a 1 hr drive (each way). I’d come home to find nothing was done for dinner because she didn’t like to cook. So I’d have to throw something together. I’d have to wash the dishes because she didn’t like doing that either. When children came along, as soon as I walked in the door they were all my responsibility. I had to do all the grocery shopping. I had to do at least half the house work because to her, we should share that. Sex was non-existent because if I tried being spontaneous she couldn’t just flip a switch and if I tried scheduling it ahead of time I was pressuring her. And if I dared to speak up for myself the conversation quickly came to “I don’t have to put up with this crap! I’ll just take the kids and go live with my parents! You can pay me to take care of them!”

But hey, she was a “modern, liberated woman”. Wanted all the benefits of being a “trad wife” with none of the actual responsibility. So tell me, was I wrong for divorcing her? Wrong for feeling like she was screwing me over at every turn? Wrong for being attacked for voicing my feelings? Wrong for feeling that providing 100% of the income and 75% of the household efforts was unfair? Or would it be fair for me to expect her to keep the house, make the meals, and take care of the kids most of the time? What exactly should her contribution to the relationship be?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Women don’t want to be doormats either, but s constant preach to girls and women that the man gets the final say, that women with opinions are annoying, and that God prefers women to be at home not earning money, will create very unhappy, dependent, doormats. If men want that for their daughters, then they should keep on with that song. Or, they can teach men and women to learn how to work together. It might even help our geo-politics in the world.

It is not a competition, everyone can win if they work together.

Choosing to stay home is different. Choosing to stay home to raise the children and help the house run smoothly is a reasonable decision, I have nothing against it, but it does eventually result in the person doing it to fall behind in the working world.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, if everyone works together they can all win. But that tends to be the problem, as I said. If both parties are “leaders”, it creates friction eventually.

As for SAHM (or SAHF), I see nothing wrong with it. Every study out there says that children do much better with 2 parents in the house and if one is a SAH, it is even better. Your statement about falling behind in the working world can be an issue, but only if the SAH is going to work outside the home at some point. My mom was going to be a SAHM but ended up having to work. She did quite well in the banking world, but it didn’t come over-night. And at one point had 2 other smaller jobs to help make ends meet. I’ve already covered this. But the point is that it comes back to what the couple decides the goals for the marriage are. If “family” is a top priority and the major breadwinner loses a job, then the SAH has to help step in. Things change. That is a certainty of life. And actual caring families understand that.

I completely disagree with people that believe they are somehow better than their spouse because of their role in the family. That show far more about them than their spouse, that’s for sure.

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