Why do many unbelievers want to hold all believers to a criterion they themselves do not want to be measured by?

Really?

Erect straw men much?

All I want from believers is that they keep their unsupported beliefs to themselves and out of science, politics, schools and the public square.

The door swings both ways, that’s why. Many “believers” paint us with the same brush, yet I don’t hear you complaining about that!

Backing away from this thread… ~

@Neodarwinian “Voter intimidation is any concerted effort or practice by an individual or group on behalf of a party or candidate to coerce the voting behavior of a particular class or demographic of voters.”

Running like hell away from this thread…..~

I take personal offense to the neanderthal comment.

For the same reason anyone who is prejudiced generalizes about whatever group he or she is prejudiced against.

@Neodarwinian All I want from believers is that they keep their unsupported beliefs to themselves and out of science, politics, schools and the public square.
Response somewhat proves the point. I can say, ”All I want from [atheist, Scientologist, women libbers, animal rights activist, tree huggers, executives, gays, bullies, etc, etc] is that they keep their unsupported beliefs to themselves and out of science, politics, schools and the public square.” and be no worse than you, right?

@jerv The door swings both ways, that’s why. Many “believers” paint us with the same brush, yet I don’t hear you complaining about that!
How do you know when you are not listening but trying to justify painting all believers with the same brush because some did it to you? I have, but as the ”selective hearing syndrome” runs gravely through Jellyville here you must have missed it. Maybe you were too focused on those believers who you feel were painting you with a single brush. If I did not voice my displeasure loud enough for you that makes painting all believers with the same brush correct? What else in the world shall we handle tit for tat?

I’m wondering if people are afraid to answer because of the vitriol spewed by SOME non-believers on the daily here. I find that sad, because it’s pretty much always one-sided.

That mouse person got mad one day, let out her frustration, and left because of it, from what I understand. Although I didn’t understand at the time, I do now. Even Christians can get tired of being beat up so consistantly.

When it comes to how I vote, I really do understand that how some of us vote may irritate you, but the way you handle that irritation should be to promote change, not be nasty on a website to people who try to be nice to you and understand your pov. I don’t understand the pleasure or sense of accomplishment that people get from being mean or bullying others into a perceived submission. Maybe someone can explain that?

“Why do many unbelievers want to hold all believers…”

Because they love us and we’re fun to hold.

@Hypocrisy_Central You asked why; I took that as you wanting the reason, not whether that reason is morally correct.

In the expansion, you touched on fairness. If both sides are equally wrong, that sounds fair to me insofar as both sides victimize innocent people on the other side of the belief/non-belief divide. But in another sense, both sides are equally unfair in doing so.

The really unfair thing here is implying that believers are innocent, blameless creatures.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sigh

@KNOWITALL

” “Voter intimidation is any concerted effort or practice by an individual or group on behalf of a party or candidate to coerce the voting behavior of a particular class or demographic of voters.”

Project much?

Another straw man thrown out by the religious.

All the concerted efforts and practices are on your side and cleaning up your messes is what my side is trying to do.

Intimidation my a@@!

Coercion? You and yours are well practiced in that regard, aren’t you?

@jerv Not to hijack the thread in another direction, I will simply say, I agree; there are believers who mess up, in part because we are human and cannot help it, but also because they are still on milk spiritually and do not take the effort to grow.

@Hypocrisy_Central

No it doesn’t. It is the religious that are sticking their nose into everything. From Texas school books to blue laws you can always see the religious influence there.

Gays, executives, tree huggers?

If they had 1 X 10^-30 power and money of religion then you could say that. They don’t and you are erecting more straw men and you know it.

@Neodarwinian The biggest excuse I keep getting for cruel words and behavior here comes down to how we vote. Do you disagree?

What messes have I caused you to have to clean up, sir/ lady? Not all of us in a box that you’ve made up, just me or someone on this site.

@KNOWITALL

” The biggest excuse I keep getting for cruel words and behavior here comes down to how we vote. Do you disagree? ”

I agree that we are through here as all you do is throw out red herrings and whinge a lot.

Bye.

I think perhaps it’s human nature to want everyone to conform. I think it takes more thinking, perhaps more intelligence, to become OK with people who don’t conform. I’d bet it’s an instinctual thing. Everyone needs to be on the same page for us to survive. But we don’t need it to the same extent as we did when we lived in tribes and were desperately dependent on each other for survival.

So you have people, mere human beings, great apes, on either side of the argument who are equally guilty of demanding conformity, and you have people on either side of the argument who are OK with those who don’t conform.

@Neodarwinian If they had 1 X 10^-30 power and money of religion then you could say that. They don’t and you are erecting more straw men and you know it.
That is a totally different tangent, however all I am going to say about it here, is if you think gays, executives, ecologist don’t have a finger print in government, school, and business, <CLAP> <CLAP> wake up. Money is greatly a non-starter.

Get special interest out of government and it will run better.

You want to go down that road, you can open a thread for than road, here I am done with it, but feel free to lurve up with that train of thought.

@Neodarwinian haha, I can honestly say I’ve never been called a whinger before, I think I’ll take it as a compliment, sir/ lady!

I know you hate me for some reason based on past attempts at communication, but if you reconsider, I’d welcome your PM’s at your convenience.

@Dutchess_III Do you really feel that believers are simple conformists? I don’t feel like a conformist since I conform to no religion in totality. I’m like the James Dean of Catholicism…lol (get it, Rebel without a cause?)

No no Rebel without a religion! :) ...I said I think it’s an instinct that people want other people to conform. Some believers want everyone to conform to their beliefs. Some atheists want everyone to conform to their opinions.

I think it’s hard to break from that instinct and just live and let live.

I’m not talking about you, btw. You’re just defending yourself, not trying to make everyone think LIKE you do.

@Hypocrisy_Central (

We are through here also as all you do is regurgitate the same straw man arguments you started with.

Ecologists have a finger print ( whatever that is! ) in government as heavy as religion! Too rich! What are you taking anyway?

@Dutchess_III Right. So maybe since you’re a ‘cool’ agnostic that I find non-offensive, why do the others seem to want to make all believers think like THEY do?

If I had kids and wanted my kid to pray in school, I’d send them to a Christian school. Prayer in school is already not allowed here. So no problem there.

What is the problem? Why can no one tell me specifically what is happening that is causing this huge divide between otherwise nice people?

I’m just trying to figure out what is upsetting people to the degree that they are filled with such anger?

For the same reasons peopl eon both sides of the fence do it. They want everyone to think like them. It could be an insecurity thing, it could be an ancient instinct thing.

I think people are frustrated that others can’t see how OBVIOUS it is. That may just be arrogance.

@Neodarwinian We are through here also as all you do is regurgitate the same straw man arguments you started with.
If you believe there is no validity in the question why not pose a rebuttal to show why? Your avoidance of answering the question save the motive of the question being asked begs the thought you believe it is OK for non-believers to paint all believers with the same brush simply to counter the fact that some believer have done it. Is that the argument you are making without saying it, because you are not saying much at the moment?

Because they’re hypocrites? It is somewhat natural to put all people in a group and paint them in a negative light because of a bad experience with one member of the group; it’s nothing new. How often do people make generalizations when they’re angry? It happens all the time. But realization of it and refusal to stop makes one hypocritical.

That’s actually a good point. I find some people get arrogant and disrespectful when I mention church. It’s almost like it’s ok to bash God but don’t mess with any of their precious beliefs that they care about. It’s an epidemic of hypocrisy. On the one hand folks will generally agree to tolerate others but there is little tolerance for even the mention of Jesus, for example. Whether you’re Christian or not you can’t deny the name has power.

How about a little tolerance of all views? Does it take that much to say okay, I’ll accept you think differently than I do?

When I leave the US, I’m Canadian.

When I don’t want to be compared to something unfavourable, I distance myself from it. I don’t make excuses for it, or complain about how people don’t show it respect, or stand on a pedestal talking about its good bits and how much worse it could be. I get away. I don’t associate with it.

I got sick of dumb blonde jokes a long time ago. Instead of whining, I dyed my hair. Now I get hot redhead comments. Much preferable.

I believe that if folks would just worry about their own shit and quit worrying about other folks’ shit then the following vehement argument topics would soon disappear:

Religion

Atheism

Politics

Homosexuality

Abortion

Racism

Professional Football go packers

Did you just say “go packers?” You and me got a problem @Blondesjon.

Packers haven’t had a good team since Vince Lombardi coached.
:-)

ouch & double ouch

@Seek I don’t ask you to change to treat you well. No, I won’t deny Jesus for anyone, it’s more important than hair.

Is this the raven calling the crow black?

@whitenoise What? If you’re referring, in general, to some people on both sides of the fence, then I’d say “Yes.”

I’m referring to some people on this thread and to the question itself.

Where does this nonsense come from… ‘Many non-believers’?
Please make that some. And how can one generalize so widely, when asking (blaming) others for doing the same. Don’t you see the irony in that?

One person on this thread is complaining about people’s attitude towards Jezus, yet even today was very harsh on Islam.

It feels like we are pefectly OK with anybody critizing anybody’s beliefs, but just don’t touch ours.

Most anti-religious posts I have seen on this site have struck me as reactions to other, religious posts.

@whitenoise, “Most anti-religious posts I have seen on this site have struck me as reactions to other, religious posts.” I don’t see it that way. Maybe I’m missing something but many of the anti-religious posts seem to come out of nowhere…..

@Dutchess My hope is that peace & harmony flows through us all, regardless of source, to foment change. Possible?

@Dutchess_III

Like this thread’s opening question doesn’t?

On this site, we are acting like dogs… running in circles… after each others tails. And when this has stopped, for whatever reason, we start waving our tails.

That’s fine in itself, but don’t whine when your tail gets bitten.

There are some very interesting debates possible on religion. I often have them. Somehow, though, on this site we all act wounded and become de- and offensive.

@Whitenoise No, it’s many. What do you suggest as a solution? Just stop talking like @blondesjon says?

@KNOWITALL . . . I said nothing of the sort.

I said take care of your own house and let others take care of theirs.

If you want to discuss about religion do so, but… Role with the punches.

More and more I’m staying out of these debates though.

In the last three years I have not even mentioned my religion.

If you don’t want to be attacked/challenged or even commented on your faith, then don’t flaunt it. If you feel you want to defend your relgion, then do so, but don’t defend yourself.

If I go around telling everybody I am so happy being a man, then it will not be long or people will start telling me that there is nothing wrong with women and that men are far from perfect.

@Whitenoise Ah, I see,hide my religion like you. I came out eventually because of what I read when I first came.

I don’t agree with hiding my religion, but I have stopped participating with these questions. I’m not going to change anyone’s thoughts on this and I’m just going to get upset over the hateful and hurtful comments on my religious beliefs. These are random people on the internet so what do I care if they don’t agree with me?

@chyna @KNOWITALL Just be true to yourselves. Ignore the buttheads. You both have taught me so much. I’m so much better for listening to you two and considering your views. Thank you.

@Chyna No one should make you feel you can’t be you, whoever that is! Avoidance is submission. That’s not in my dna.

I don’t think @whitenoise is saying “hide your religion otherwise you’ll be attacked”; they’re saying that, if you truly don’t want any kind of comment or challenge to your religion, then the only way to truly avoid that is to never mention it. I know that from experience with my homosexuality; if I talk about it, others will comment and it’s not always going to be pleasant. But it in no way means that I must now hide it.

@Knowitall No one makes me feel I can’t be me. I just prefer not to deal with the ugly comments.

@Dom How many times & ways can you say ‘God doesn’t exist you idiots?’ before you finally just stop being an arse?

@KNOWITALL Easy.

@KNOWITALL If they actually say “You idiots”, then they’ll be modded. Just as you might be for calling them arses.

@KNOWITALL If someone says that, then by default that makes them an asshole, in my opinion. And I agree with @glacial; it should be modded. I guess there are a lot of complaints that this site lets comments like that slide.

@Adirondack Bro! ;) I know, I’m going to chill. It’s the principle though.

@KNOWITALL Okay. Just don’t let it get under your skin. The peeps on the other side should do the same, but it doesn’t always work that way.

Sigh!

So much verbosity, so little said.

Confusion between what is atheism and what is anti-theism riddles this thread while those that hold beliefs they can not support want respect they do not deserve.

What century is this?

A century in which churches pay taxes? That would be a small step forward. Then believers might have some tangible defense to fall back on. I won’t hold my breath though, just like I won’t be following this mess any further.

I’m shooting from the hip on this one, but I think you need to look a little deeper here. Christianity has a violent past, like Islam, and it’s a religion that’s treated as absolute truth by many who follow it. Though I’d never been able to recall the Bible promoting eternal hellfire or torture, many Christians preach it anyways, and many seem to do this with a degree of enthusiasm. Jesus being thrown in the face of decent people who’ve lived a far more moral life than some Christians themselves have probably doesn’t help matters either (regular pattern in my conservative newspaper to bash nonchristian do-gooders).

Don’t look at the stereotyping as an action itself, but instead look at why Christians get stereotyped. Threatening people with eternal hell or annihilation for not accepting Jesus will not win you many friends. Claiming that you have the one True religion will not get you many fans either. There’s nothing difficult to understand about this.

I can understand the stereotyping politically too. Not all Christians are conservatives, true. However, the most vocal Christians tend to be conservative, and unlike most liberal Christians, conservatives tend to use the Bible to justify their economic and cultural views. I live in a rural conservative Christian area myself, so to me this stereotyping is justified according to my own experiences.

I’m not really aware of this phenomena. I’m an atheist, but it has nothing to do with anything I may have experienced, at least not that of which I’m conscious. My mom is religious and kind of pushed it on me as a kid, but you can’t assume that she is the sole cause of my atheism for this. In fact that experience wasn’t even that bad, and although I don’t get along with her and she hurt me when I was young, religion had nothing to do with it.

To answer the question, I would think that if someone becomes an atheist or hates religions due to some personal experience related with that, it gives them something to blame for their pain. That is, if we’re assuming that this is the only reason people become atheists. Which I do not believe for a second. To say that all atheists want to brush believers with the same paint due to some experience is a rather bold statement, and one which I would ask proof of. I’m an atheist because gods make no sense to me, and I can’t remember anything specific that triggered this, seems to have come rather naturally. Hell, I don’t, seriously, ever even remember believing in Santa Claus as a kid.
But people will often pinpoint some source which will justify their feelings and actions towards something. It’s a very human thing to do, and is not an atheist thing only. Far from it.

@Hypocrisy_Central If you even have a clue what your screen name means, you have to know this question is the height of irony. What you are essentially asking is, “Why does that whole class of people generalize all the time when me and my whole class of people never do that?”

@KNOWITALL

That is actually a funny and sadly indicative reaction, given what I was discussing.
You just seem to be set to feel victimized.

I didn’t say that you should hide anything. I didn’t even mean that you should be silent about it. I wrote ’ don’t flaunt’.

‘Don’t flaunt’ doesnt mean ‘hide’. Just like ‘don’t shout’ doesn’t mean ‘be silent’.

…

When I wrote don’t defend yourself, I did that as a suggestion to focus on the topic. If people question religion or even attack it, then go ahead and defend it. If people attack you then leave it…. They should and will be moderated.

People don’t even know you, attacking you says more about them than it says about you. Reacting to those kinds of posts is a waste of your energy.

@KNOWITALL

I didn’t ask you to change either.

I suggested that if someone didn’t want to risk being seem in a negative light, that they should back off from the source of the light.

Alternately, if you feel publicly defending something is more important than your personal comfort in that moment, stand and defend.

But you can’t have it both ways. You can’t defend one group’s right to misogynistic and homophobic without getting a little tar on yourself.

I don’t care for the stereotype of the ugly American. Last time I left the country it was to a small island country. You could spot the Americans a mile away. They were the ones who hadn’t read the resort’s info packet requesting that no one wear bathing suits in restaurants, and slamming doors and shouting down hallways long after the whole island had gone to bed.

It was much more important to me to have a good time and be treated well by the locals than it was to defend the not-rude and not-boorish Americans. Active choice made. I’m from Nova Scotia, don’t you know?

I don’t think I have started a “Agnostic is great” thread here. I’m not sure anyone has. Feel free to prove me wrong.

But the bible shit is damn near daily. And it is tiring. Mostly it seems that when bible shit is brought up you get called on it and that hurts you. It isn’t going to change, justify your irrational beliefs all you want, I’m not buying it. Or you could just not mention it and talk about recipes, your choice.

Now make a meta thread about how Christians are vilified here.

Since “flaunting” is basically what Christians are told to do, they are in a hard spot I guess. However, I think Christians from bible belt areas might have a very interesting experience living in non bible belt towns and cities for 6 months. It is vastly different. There are still Christians around, but the conversation about religion is very different. First, there is less of it. Less talk of religion, even though the churches are all around. Second, I bet Christians feel less under attack in those places. One reason might be there is less talk of religion; and another might be because they know their atheist, Catholic (I am not including Catholics since they do not count for bible belt) Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist friends are just fine with them being Christians. The loud paranoid people in the media and politics are of the bible beltish persuasion. We see them and sometimes generalize that they represent the evangelical Christian community.

Interestingly, I just saw on the news a report about the new Pope. I guess he will be focusing on the poor and needy and wants to tone down all the talk on subjects like abortion and gay life. From what I understand he think we get too destracted on those topics and are losing focus on what he believes is most important.

To the main question, I don’t think most unbelievers paint all believers with one brush. When I say Christians blah blah blah. I mean the Christians who do do blah blah blah, and I know there are Christians who don’t. I try to always clarify, but I know I miss doing it sometimes, so it comes across like I think all do whatever I am talking about, but I never think that. When people make sweeping statements about Jewish people I don’t automatically feel defensive if it is not true for me, I just point out that I don’t think that way or behave that way.

@johnpowell Why do you have to say bible shit? Why be so offensive to those who take the bible very seriously? Do you really think that is going to be effective?

@JLeslie Thanks for being cool, you’re a classy lady.

Here’s an interview that Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris did with The Morning Show on Global News TV in Ontario, Canada. They are discussing their documentary film The Unbelievers, but in the discussion, they get into exactly what this question is claiming, and demonstrate why the premise as stated is exactly backwards. The video interview is about 12 minutes long, and well worth listening to.

I get savaged by believers here frequently for simply questioning an assertion they have made, pointing out why I think it is illogical. Often their reaction is as if I have told them their mother was a crack whore and they are the bastard child of a dope dealer. It’s understandable, I guess, when being a believer in a certain set of religious practices and dogma is so integrally part of who they feel they are.

@ETpro That was interesting to watch, thanks. That does help me understand your pov better. Maybe the delivery could use some work, but the message of ‘reality’ deserves more thought on my part. Fair enough?

@KNOWITALL Fair enough. :-)

Breaths a deep sigh of contentment. ;)

@ETpro

The interviewers in this video are representative of that mindset prevalent here.

How to get through to them?

A bit like advances in science. The common concept is that science advances by the death of invalidated hypotheses, but the truth is that science advances by the death of scientists. Positions can be held with rock bound certainty, but new generations bring new thinking.

Maybe there is no need to “get through to them” @Neodarwinian.

@Dutchess_III

” Positions can be held with rock bound certainty, but new generations bring new thinking.”

Obviously not a need to get through to them.

You do know what a rhetorical question is, don’t you?

Yes, I know what a rhetorical question is, but you seem to have spent most of your life here on Fluther “trying to get through” to people you seem to see as inferior. Why don’t you just quit? Why is it so important to you to “get through to them?” Live and let live. No one is hurting you.

Dutchess_III

” No one is hurting you ”

What ineffable nonsense. Every time I read the creationist % in the US I am personally hurt and that is just the tip of the religious hurting iceberg. You can’t be that clueless.

The delusion extends far beyond the belief.

” but you seem to have spent most of your life here on Fluther ”

Huh?!?

The first post I saw of yours (which probably wasn’t your FIRST Fluther post of all time) was somewhat insulting and condensending. Rather along the lines of this post to a Jelly on a Zimmerman question, which was among your first after arriving here:

”@SavoirFaire
“to believe that politics was heavily involved here”
*Obviously I missed nothing here.** To believe?!?
Anyone who makes a claim bears the burden of defending it proportionate to the degree to which they assert the claim.
I did not assert anything, I just read the legal consensus in many different media outlets and this is the default position. The state did not prove it’s case. Your baseless, and verbose, speculations do not interest me. and if you do not have the evidence to back them up not only are you appealing to emotion to a far away from a logical presentation.
Evidence for your first assertion, or we are through here as your speculation is beginning to bore me.” (All bolding emphasis mine.)

All of the posts I’ve seen since then have been along the same lines of “You are stupid and I am smart.”

And we are done as you are beginning to bore me.

@Dutchess_III

” I think perhaps it’s human nature to want everyone to conform. I think it takes more thinking, perhaps more intelligence, to become OK with people who don’t conform. I’d bet it’s an instinctual thing. Everyone needs to be on the same page for us to survive. But we don’t need it to the same extent as we did when we lived in tribes and were desperately dependent on each other for survival.

So you have people, mere human beings, great apes, on either side of the argument who are equally guilty of demanding conformity, and you have people on either side of the argument who are OK with those who don’t conform. ”

Like this little gem?

The only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow line and dead skunks.

Bye, until later.

@Neodarwinian I could point out to you the enormous number of times that scientists have reviewed new experimental data, tried to prove it in error and discovered they could not, and promptly switched their position. But that would be evidence, and since you seem to assert that all science is hidebound and totally resistant to evidence, I would bet you are projecting your own approach onto the rest of the scientific world, and so it would make no difference.

this is so Viking style

@ETpro

Let me correct that with the ” sometimes ” or ” many times ” proviso. And I think you know exactly what I was talking about as this is common knowledge plus common human behavior that has extended through the ages Lord Kelvin, Louis Agassiz, Cuvier, Hoyle, Sober and Wilson, W. V. Edwards, Gould, Lewontin, and many social scientists. A small list of people who held ” beliefs ” from the age of the earth, evolutionary theory, empiricism, group selection and other concepts that the evidence shows or showed that they were wrong. Some here held this belief until death and some here will be dead soon and have not retracted their positions. Details on request.

Many scientists do change their minds and Richard Dawkins tells the story about one who did change his mind nobly, but many do not and go to the grave under a misapprehension. This is still the real world and not ideal world. .

@Neodarwinian I would be the first to agree (well, maybe not the first but up there in the early adopters) that scientists are humans with all the foibles that implies. In their studies, some really get the scientific method, and some do not. I’d definitely agree that in what we loosely call the social “sciences” because here we are dealing with an area of study that is still largely subjective. The list of physicists, astronomers, cosmologists, mathematicians, chemists, geologist, climatologists,,etc., etc. who have gone to the grave resisting solid evidence they are wrong is a far, far smaller list, particularly in recent time.

It’s not a trivial point, because one of the standard arguments in the war on science is that science is just another belief system and every bit as subjective as eschatology, dowsing, crystal power, and all the New Age woo-woo out there. And that assertion is preposterous.

The catch up, comments, and yat, yat, yat, now that I am back.

@whitenoise Where does this nonsense come from…**‘Many non-believers’?
Please make that some. And how can one generalize so widely, when asking (blaming) others for doing the same. Don’t you see the irony in that?

I say many in regards to those I have met in life and online; and it is more than I would say is few to some. I am not generalizing off the cuff but what I have witnessed. I don’t generalize all non-believers has evil, heinous, and wicked people in general. Spiritually we are all that and more, some are just covered by grace, but that is a different issue.

Somehow, though, on this site we all act wounded and become de- and offensive.
Question is, who is doing it more? I WILL get offended when someone demeans me believing in God, or doesn’t mention God with as much general respect as one would mention a government official, monarch, Mylie Syrus, J-Zee, or any other earthly creature who can’t turn a red rose into a dandelion and back again. Insult God if you will, He created the mockers and scoffers and He can certainly handle them, I have to pray for those He decides to deal with; it won’t be pretty..

@glacial If they actually say “You idiots”, then they’ll be modded. Just as you might be for calling them arses.
But we have so many brainy, smart people here, surely they can figure out how to call someone an idiot while not actually using the word idiot.~ ;-P

@Paradox25 Though I’d never been able to recall the Bible promoting eternal hellfire or torture, many Christians preach it anyways, and many seem to do this with a degree of enthusiasm. Jesus being thrown in the face of decent people who’ve lived a far more moral life than some Christians themselves have probably doesn’t help matters either (regular pattern in my conservative newspaper to bash nonchristian do-gooders).
I can get you the verses if you really want to know. I will agree far too many Christians, or those who want the moniker, do not act becoming of their calling. I have to constantly tell those who take on the mantel of Christ that they have to put Christ on daily like they put their clothes on, save no one will know whose team they are playing on. Furthermore, the same way they put on their clothes and check to see there is no taco stains on their shirt, they don’t have their pants on backwards or their shirt inside out, they need to check to make sure they are wearing Christ correctly because when they believe no one is seeing them, someone is. If they have the Bible tucked under their arm on Sunday and as soon as services let out, they go hunt down the connection to go get ”lit like a big dog” the rest of the evening, someone is going to see them and their testimony becomes a testiphony.

@ETpro If you even have a clue what your screen name means, you have to know this question is the height of irony.
I know EXACTLY what my screen name is, do YOU? The question has no irony in it at all. I do not go around stating that you and other non-believers are redacted and then some.

What you are essentially asking is, “Why does that whole class of people generalize all the time when me and my whole class of people never do that?”
Maybe I need to get you some Hooked on Phonics? I know you are smarter than that. Where in there did I say that believers, or those who call themselves that, were perfect and never generalized or got it wrong? I could go back over my time here and point out my comments to the contrary but, those is too much time, and take no offense, it is not worth it for me to show you what you missed because you heard me talking but was not listening to the words. I know all believers are not perfect; do you know all non-believers are not perfect as well?

@JLeslie Since “flaunting” is basically what Christians are told to do, they are in a hard spot I guess.
I would not say flaunt, I wear Christ daily; people can see Christ in my actions. I will share Christ with anyone. IMO opinion flaunt is to use something to put someone else down, to say ”I have this so I am better; I have more that, so I am better”. Flaunt is to have something you do not wish, hope, or intend to share with others; you want to be the sole possessor of it. I do not want to be the sole recipient of God’s grace and hope everyone else dies with out His grace.

@KNOWITALL @JLeslie Thanks for being cool, you’re a classy lady.
Agreed!

@Hypocrisy_Central Did you watch ET’s video? Curious about your thoughts.

^ I will get to it, right now more important things are afoot.

@Hypocrisy_Central Then you have a very different understanding of irony than I do. Perhaps you could share your definition of the word.

@Hypocrisy_Central I definitely know Christians who flaunt their Christianity by your definition of flaunt. Although, I do admit that flaunt is probably not the most accurate word for what I was meaning to describe. What I offer to you is to the receiver who really does not want other religions in their face all the time, enough Christians constantly reference their religion out of the blue. I am not talking about when there is a religious discussion. I say I am Jewish and an atheist during a religious discussion so people have an idea of where I am coming from. With Christians it usually feels like the Christian wants everyone to agree with them, or they are assuming everyone around them is Christian. That happened to me a lot in south, the assumption everyone around them is Christian and believes in God.

I have talked about the 150 foot triple crosses by the side of the interstate where I lived (They actually are on church property). The 30 foot statue of liberty replica with a cross in her hand in lieu of the torch. There is one near where I lived and another near Birmingham, AL. That is flaunting or in my face. It is not a Christian keeping religion for themselves, but announcing it to the masses.

It feels offensive, and I think a lot of Christians don’t understand this, for me to think that they don’t believe God will let me into heaven, even if I live a good and pure life, even if I act as Jesus would have wanted in every ther way, if I don’t accept him as my savior I will be punished by not being allowed in. It makes no sense to me and is exclusionary.

So Christians put themselves on the offensive, without intending to do so, and they get push back, because then others go on the defensive in response. Too many Christians, I don’t mean all or most, but too many never can empathasize with the minority position and it’s annoying. But, also, there is that conflict that they are supposed to spread the word, and many Christians grow up in very Christian places, and so the majority of people they come into contact with think and talk with them. It’s part of the vernacular of the community.

@ETpro Then you have a very different understanding of irony than I do. Perhaps you could share your definition of the word.
I think we have the same understanding; you are just misapplying it here. I feel you are trying to say my screen name is a mockery because I am pointing out a true fact, (unless you have proof that it doesn’t happen) non-believers believe that believers should act perfect and Christ like and if some can’t, then all (or near all) must be fakes and phonies. And that I am being judgmental or excusing believers of any bad behavior because I did not mention them in the question. You do not know what my experiences with non-believers are so how can you tell I am incorrect? Over all it might not reflect non-believers as a complete whole if I were able to interact with all of them, but it is true with those I have interacted with. Your implications are off and inaccurate.

@JLeslie What I offer to you is to the receiver who really does not want other religions in their face all the time, enough Christians constantly reference their religion out of the blue. I am not talking about when there is a religious discussion.
The thing I find is that it happens in many ways on many beliefs and thoughts. People just notice it more when it is about God or Jesus because there is something about that name, If I take time to notice I can point out what beliefs or passions a person has because it will creep into a conversation when we are not speaking of it, like sexual orientation, anti-government beliefs, hatred for Obama, distain for immigrants (especially Hispanic ones), selling dope or gang life, etc.

With Christians it usually feels like the Christian wants everyone to agree with them, or they are assuming everyone around them is Christian. That happened to me a lot in south, the assumption everyone around them is Christian and believes in God.
I will have to take your word on that, here believers behave very different. I take it most are not believers unless they tell me or I see their fruits; then I know where their roots are.

I have talked about the 150 foot triple crosses by the side of the interstate where I lived (They actually are on church property). The 30 foot statue of liberty replica with a cross in her hand in lieu of the torch. There is one near where I lived and another near Birmingham, AL. That is flaunting or in my face. It is not a Christian keeping religion for themselves, but announcing it to the masses.
And there are not things unbelievers do that would can be flaunted in the face of believers; and certainly I feel it is flaunted in my face, but those doing it don’t seem to care that they might more than they feel they have the right to do so. Being a believer is not to hid your light under a bushel basket but place it on a lamp stand as to light the whole room. As a believer I believe that I am to be the lamp of God to a world in darkness (we are not getting off on that here; it is an issue in another thread), therefore, I am not to hide the gospel but highlight it. I do believe some believers try to browbeat the gospel into someone; and that never works. The Lord says let your testimony be your witness, that will attract those who really want the peace, joy, and contentment that is Christ.

It feels offensive, and I think a lot of Christians don’t understand this, for me to think that they don’t believe God will let me into heaven, even if I live a good and pure life, even if I act as Jesus would have wanted in every ther way, if I don’t accept him as my savior I will be punished by not being allowed in. It makes no sense to me and is exclusionary.
God will not let you go to hell unless that is what you choose. If you were acting as Jesus wanted then you know that you, same as I, can NEVER live a perfect live, the way Jesus did in every way. Even if you lied once, or gossiped against someone you fell short of Him. If heaven meant you had to be 100% perfect and you were 99.9% perfect, you were not perfect; so if you miss 100% by 1% or 80% you missed. What gets you to 100% is the blood of Jesus, so if you are not 100% and reject the missing percents to get you there, it is you who decided not to do it. A sinking ship is not going to say “well this person is good and lived a moral life, I will break a floating part off for him to survive but that man over there is a murder, I will let him drown.” All goes down with the ship the good and the bad, the young and the old. I could say more, but then people will try to take the question another direction, so, I will leave it at that. If you want a more detailed explanation you always have the PM or open another thread posing that question. :-)

So Christians put themselves on the offensive, without intending to do so, and they get push back, because then others go on the defensive in response. Too many Christians, I don’t mean all or most, but too many never can empathasize with the minority position and it’s annoying.
One can say also So blank nonbelievers put themselves on the offensive, without intending to do so, and they get push back, because then believers go on the defensive in response. Too many blank nonbelievers, I don’t mean all or most, but too many never can empathize with the believer’s position and it’s annoying. There are many things nonbelievers do that can be very annoying to believers but this is the real world and I don’t expect them to care; they are going to do what is pleasurable for their own flesh regardless of if it offends believer in the slightest.

@Hypocrisy_Central

Being a believer is not to hid your light under a bushel basket but place it on a lamp stand as to light the whole room. As a believer I believe that I am to be the lamp of God to a world in darkness (we are not getting off on that here; it is an issue in another thread), therefore, I am not to hide the gospel but highlight it…The Lord says let your testimony be your witness, that will attract those who really want the peace, joy, and contentment that is Christ. With that you prove my point. Your intent is to share your religion; share is a pretty tame word. I know the Christian in front of me doing that is hoping I get the message to come to Christ. Again I a, not saying all Christians do it. I also understand that some Christians are just so used to doing it, it is just like a habit, even if they have no intent to actually influence others. But, enough Christians are hoping to influence others that it is noticeable, because there are simply so many Christians in our country.

Some atheists are horrible. But, I bet the atheists would be quieter of the Chrisians were. A lot of it is reactionary. Feeling on the defense.

Some countries have more laws or expectations about not flaunting ones religion, or anything for that matter. Their crosses and signs on building must comply with smaller specs. Nothing in the town is a huge mega standout. Being ostentatious is frowned upon. Very little flash. Someone who rambles on about their faith would stand out as unusual (unless it was a religious discussion as I mentioned previously). Christian pastors have talked about how during the late 70’s and 80’s Christians really ramped it up and brought a lot of pushback onto themselves.

It absolutely varies around the country and town to town how people of different religions interact and respect each other or lack thereof. I haven’t heard religious “speak” since I move to FL, except maybe holiday talk. In Memphis if I had been living there for the last 6 months I would have had a few invites to go to church, someone telling me to have a blessed day. Someone telli me they will pray for me if I share difficult news. It isn’t like I was bombarded every day by people, but it is much more common. People I know there post on their facebook, I see it on my feed, religious stuff constantly. Bible quotes, upset about something like using Xmas as an abbreviation, annoyed a store uses Happy Holiday instead of Merry Christmas. It is ridiculous made up crap, because they like to stir the pot and feel like people are against them. No better way to keep people wanting to fight and scream Christianity from the rooftops than to let them believe people are trying to take Christianity away from them. Goodness knows if I thought Jews were under attack I would be up in arms.

JLeslie @JLeslie With that you prove my point. Your intent is to share your religion; share is a pretty tame word.
One, I do share but not religion. I cannot stand religion really; I am into sharing my relationship with God. Here (in my area), from what I gather, many get offended when you mention church, God, or Jesus. It is who I am, and I see no reason to hide who I am because others or offended simply because I am being me. If I go to the Castro I will see people being them, and if I don’t care to see the them they want to be, I will bypass the Castro.

I also understand that some Christians are just so used to doing it, it is just like a habit, even if they have no intent to actually influence others.
I see no difference in that, than a person who chimes up about a great movie they seen last night or place they ate at. If they find something they think is great they usually say something about it even if the conversation wasn’t on that topic. A person who has a great relationship with God is happy and like a great place to eat is unashamed to let it be known.

Bible quotes, upset about something like using Xmas as an abbreviation, annoyed a store uses Happy Holiday instead of Merry Christmas. It is ridiculous made up crap, because they like to stir the pot and feel like people are against them. No better way to keep people wanting to fight and scream Christianity from the rooftops than to let them believe people are trying to take Christianity away from them.
That would be the same with any group and what they believe in. Do you think wildlife activist and supporters would not say something if people say who cares if dolphins get caught with the tuna, we want tuna anyhow? Or if it appeared people would lose their rights to own firearms? We know how focal gays get when you talk about taking something away or denying something from them. They sued over marriage, would you tell them it was small stuff and they should just sit back and take domestic partnership because that is what everyone wants? Too bad the believers are not in one accord with top lawyers maybe the butchering of Christmas (even though it is not the actual birthday of our Lord), and how it was celebrated for the past century at least, would stop. If society decided to take the Feast of Tabernacles the Feast of Beer and Plenty, you would be cool with that?

@Hypocrisy_Central I said I would feel the same as a Jew, just like the dolphin lovers, and Christians understandably feel that way too. But, the Christians actually have people out there whipping up the Christians to feel that the country hates them. They get upset someone writes xmas during a time when we write, r u going to c a movie. I don’t remember anyone getting upset 30 years ago about writing Xmas for short.

You know I am Jewish, do you ever think Jews are trying to convert anyone? No, the world knows we don’t do it. So, you never have to feel that is the goal if we mention our religion. Our religion is for us, and your faith is for you. We are fine with that. Jewsoften say, you leave us alone and we will leave you alone. christians are basically saying we don’t want to leave anyone alone, we want to show them the way. If you talk about your relationship with God to people that is sounding a lot like a Christian, even if you don’t consider yourself one. It depends how you do it though. Plenty of religious Jews bring up God also. Just a week ago when a woman I was sitting next to found out my last name she switched to feeling free to talk about who is Jewish (famouspeople. She told me Princess Kate has Judaism on the mothers side) and told me to pray when I told her a difficulty I was having. I don’t know if she would do that to a nonJew though. She probably would not, because she changed when she realized I was Jewish and my husband was Sephardic and his family from Israel a couple generations back.

@Hypocrisy_Central I was reacting to “Why is it many unbelievers want to paint all believers with the same brush ” In which you are painting unbelievers with a broad brush. That’s ironic and it is hypocrisy when you claim you don’t want it done to you.

@hypo

Re “I see no difference in that, than a person who chimes up about a great movie they seen last night or place they ate at. If they find something they think is great they usually say something about it even if the conversation wasn’t on that topic. A person who has a great relationship with God is happy and like a great place to eat is unashamed to let it be known.”

Yeah right… And why do you then wonder why nonbeliever a then tell you what they think about your God?

Just as you’d give your opinion if you thought a movie is a truly ridiculous piece if crap. Or worse even… A movie aimed at twisting the minds of children into believing some really ridiculous crap?

@Hypocrisy_Central I admire your patience in this discussion, truly, but I don’t think anything anyone says is getting through, there’s too wide a gulf.

The fact that I choose to believe in God against all logic and science may never be understood by a non-believer. Unfortunately what we have here is a difference in belief systems that borders on antagonism to each other, they offend us, we offend them. How much more is there to say really?

@JLeslie and several others have shown respect for my beliefs, so all hope is not lost for mutual understanding. If anyone could convince me that my beliefs interfere with reality in regards to my vote, it would be @JLeslie‘s calm, non-abusive manner. :)

Every time a religious person says they don’t have a religion, but a personal relationship with their deity, a small African child starves to death.

And I want to bash my own face in with a shovel.

@Seek_Kolinahr I have to admit that did make me laugh.

@KNOWITALL Aw thanks. I appreciate you saying that. I also appreciate you wanting to understand all perspectives. I think you said it perfectly, too wide a gulf. also that offense is taken both ways.

@JLeslie I meant all of it. :)

If we all searched our vocabulary, we could find non-offensive ways to communicate in almost all circumstances, and that’s one of the things I appreciate about you, you make the effort to do so, that’s rare. When I lose my cool, I have to stop before I do a disservice to my God, because sometimes I feel pushed to the point of rage, not good for me or for a civil discussion.

My mind has been changed on a few things, as you know, so one day I’m hoping someone can tell me how my ‘Christian’ vote affects the world negatively, but not enough for anyone to tell me exactly how. I hear it over and over but can’t get one straight answer.

@KNOWITALL In general I am difficult to offend. It doesn’t matter how a Christian words it I think. What are they going to say, “I am not trying to convert you, but I need to say I think God has a special plan for those who survived the disaster.” Are Christians going to qualify everything they say to reassure people they aren’t trying to convert and don’t believe only Christians go to heaven. I know Christians who have a real problem with the idea that you have to be Christian to go to heaven. They look at their friends who are good, honest, giving people and just respect them for who they are and whatever their beliefs are are personal. But, of course many Christians do want to convert other ultimately, so that is a whole different thing. What can they say? How are they going to make it better?

I have evangelical friends who use all the Christian language among themselves, but they are different in public. They switch the same way I switch to Spanish with my inlaws. But, they live in diverse parts of the country, not in a town that is 97% Evangelical Christian.

@JLeslie It’s never really mattered what religion someone was to me, but I’ve been surrounded by either Christians or hippies my entire life, but since they both tend to embrace love and treating each other well, it’s not really been an issue. I think that’s why I perceive some comments as negative or antagonistic here, maybe more than others do, I’m kind of in a religious bubble here.

Reminds me of when I went to Mexico hearing everyone bash the USA, you just don’t hear that here in the Midwest much- lol

@ETpro I was reacting to “Why is it many unbelievers want to paint all believers with the same brush ” In which you are painting unbelievers with a broad brush.
<sigh> Here we go again with the hearing but not listening. Where did you get all from? I am going off my experience, I did say that at least once. I said to @JLeslie that I could not comment on the Christians in the South because I am not there; they may conduct themselves differently. I have no interaction with believer, or those who call themselves Christians in France, Russia, or Spain. How they feel they are perceived I would not know. Many, and I said many and not all, you do know the difference I hope, nonbelievers around here, this location I live, paint with a very wide brush. If they grew up with a bad experience in Catholic school or church they believe ALL other faiths behave the same way. They do not limit it to just whom they met or to just those Catholics they were exposed to. I am not painting anyone with a wide brush short of any evidence they manifested themselves.

@whitenoise Yeah right… And why do you then wonder why nonbeliever a then tell you what they think about your God?
Tell me this, if you dare even answer, if you saw a comedy at the theater you thought brilliant and you injected into a conversation that was not about comedies, or movies and once you told the group how great you thought it was one of them came off as saying they believe comedies are stupid and only stupid silly people would watch them; because they did not like comedies for whatever reason. You would apologize to them for exposing them to information about comedies when you did not even know they hated them?

Every time a religious person says they don’t have a religion, but a personal relationship with their deity, a small African child starves to death.
And I want to bash my own face in with a shovel.
I can say that of too many things people say; and do more, like douse myself with gas and set my flesh ablaze.

@all Many nonbelievers justify their behavior because they believe believers did it to them first? nonbelievers are indignant because out of X. Y, Z things they here that they did not ask to hear, because it is about God or Jesus they can’t simply ignore it or let it pass as if someone was telling them about some obscure city in Thailand they had no interest in?

@Hypocrisy_Central You said all in your main question. I don’t agree that many nonbelievers hold all nonbelievers to the same criterion they don’t want to be meSrued by. Maybe clarify what many means to you. Do you mean most, a majority, a minority?

@Seek_Kolinahr There must be a lot of personal relationships with Jesus then right?!

Seriously though, if you’ve never had one, I’m not sure you’d understand it even if I tried to explain. It’s kind of like Jesus being your best friend.

@Hypocrisy_Central I don’t know why I thought you were talking to me when you were talking to @ETpro? Ignore my post immediately before this.

@JLeslie I don’t know why I thought you were talking to me when you were talking to@ETpro?
I referenced your post because he seem to believe I was speaking to all unbelievers and I was pointing out that just as I could not speak for how the believers there behaved because I had no interaction with them, I was referring to those nonbelievers I have been exposed to. I am not going to Flutherize you with hair splitting such as how do you know the area is 97% Christian; 80%, 97%, 99%, etc, I get it; there are a lot of Christians there. Being in an area where one has dominance I believe anybody of any race or sexual orientation would act differently. I have been with white folk who forget I was in the house or area and said unflattering things about Hispanic, Blacks, and even Asians, they would have chose their words more carefully if they were in a mixed neighborhood, especially anything mentioned curbside.

I just check in from time to time to see if you guys are still at it.

yep.

Wow. Just…wow.

@Hypocrisy_Central
Re “Tell me this, if you dare even answer, if [...] one of them came off as saying they believe comedies are stupid and only stupid silly people would watch them;[...] You would apologize to them for exposing them to information about comedies when you did not even know they hated them?”

“If you dare”? Where are we? In kindergarten?

Of course not… However… this is a strawman of your creation, since I never suggested anyone should apologize anything to anyone. i would not even ever suggest people should say something like that about other people’s religion.

What I wrote was merely intended to illustrate the fallacy in your equating “bringing up your love of a movie” to “bringing up your love of God”.

The things are of totally different order… if you bring up a movie, I think everyone is free to comment that they think the movie is silly and kids should not be exposed to it. Most if not all normal people I know would then not act hurt or offended.

If Christians would bring up their religion and then were to get the same feedback of “how silly that is” and “kids should not be exposed to it”... then most of them would not only act hurt, they would actually feel hurt.

@whitenoise “If Christians would bring up their religion and then were to get the same feedback of “how silly that is” and “kids should not be exposed to it”... then most of them would not only act hurt, they would actually feel hurt.”

Um, yeah, like being on fluther. It is hurtful because I’m not trying to change anyone, I’m answering questions and contradicting incorrect generalizations that are posted constantly. Then you get called names and reemed until you either back down or leave fluther. So much for diversity.

Exactly my point to Hypo… religion isn’t equal to a movie.

@whitenoise Agreed. One of the things I hear that ALWAYS makes me post, even against my will, is that all white Republican Christians hate gays. It’s just not true and every time I see it I’m enraged. I don’t see how I could ever shut up when that kind of thing is acceptable here.

@whitenoise Exactly my point to Hypo… religion isn’t equal to a movie.
Again you hnot only miss the point but ducked the question again….

@Hypocrisy_Central
That is just bullsh@t. I am not sure what point you are referring to, but if a point was missed, I did so because you failed to make it.

An for dodging the question… I clearly said… “Of course not.” Can you not read?

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m fully aware of the verses that many Christians use from the Bible to justify their love of eternal hellfire. However, there are verses which say otherwise too, so why cherry pick to support the most negative of possible afterlife scenerios (or annihilationism)? Can you justify your assumption of eternal hell any better than I can to use that same book to promote annihilationism or other alternative.

When I ask for evidence I don’t mean cherry picking verses that (seem to) support eternal hellfire alone. You also need to be able to debunk the annihilationist references in the Bible as well, and explain why the latter assumption is false while your assumption is true. Many Christians obviously agree with you, but there are many who don’t too, so can you prove that the latter group is wrong while your group is correct? Why should I believe your assumption anymore than your annihilationist, universalism or New Age opposition’s assumptions?

People who use a doctrine of absolutism can’t have it both ways, so you either support the entire Bible literally, or you don’t. If you don’t choose to take the entire Bible literally than you need to be able to prove to me why some parts should be taken literally, and why those ‘pesky’ other parts of the Holy Book should not. I feel that my above question is fair since religionists like yourself are threatening me, and other nonbelievers, with eternal hellfire for not accepting your Saviour.

@Hypocrisy_Central Your boldface replies are beyond amusing. Here you mock me, claining that I made up this boldface quote, Why is it many unbelievers want to paint all believers with the same brush ” In which you are painting unbelievers with a broad brush. You sigh and ask, “Where did you get all from?”

I got it from your OP. Your original question asked, “Why do many unbelievers want to hold all believers to a criterion they themselves do not want to be measured by?” and the very first sentence of the question details read, “Why is it many unbelievers want to paint all believers with the same brush…?” Those are your words, here for all to see. How can you then deny you ever said them?

@whitenoise I am not sure what point you are referring to, but if a point was missed, I did so because you failed to make it.
I made the point, you just missed it. No mater how many lurve you are supported with, a miss is a miss. But let me reduce it to the ridiculous.

• Herman is in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with MOVIES, but he injects into the conversation this great comedy he seen last night with his kids, wife, whoever. He lauds cinematography, the writing, the pacing, the dialogue, etc. No one would get offended and tell him to keep his comments or love of the movie to himself because THEY did not like comedies and therefore, did not care to hear of any.
• Herman is in a conversation that has nothing to do about God but injects a mention of God or what God has done for him, and praises and lauds God, people would GET OFFENDED and believe he should keep it to himself, because they have a problem with God due to some pass religious experience with God.

It was NEVER ABOUT A MOVIE, it was about one can mention a movie, even one that a listener did not like but they will not act as if the person bringing it up committed a major crime as it would be if he mentioned God to unbelievers. Now, this indignation isn’t done by ALL unbelievers, but many have and do. And again reducing it to the ridiculous, it is bases off the unbelievers in this area because I have no way of knowing how they behave e in the South, back East, up in Maine, or anywhere else. I suspect they do behave the same towards God because unbelievers in other nations act accordingly or worse when dealing with God, or those who use religion to reach God.

@Paradox25 I’m fully aware of the verses that many Christians use from the Bible to justify their love of eternal hellfire. However, there are verses which say otherwise too, so why cherry pick to support the most negative of possible afterlife scenerios (or annihilationism)?
Good question; I can’t speak for them because I have not met them to have a conversation with them. In my opinion anyone preaching what you call ”annihlationism” is preaching something they made up or misunderstood. What I got from what I have read and studied, God wishes NO ONE to perish. Some believers cherry pick the Bible same as unbelievers, but God said let Him be true and every man a liar. I can surely point out the opposite, the peace, joy, and abundant life Christ hopes and wishes we embrace.

Many Christians obviously agree with you, but there are many who don’t too, so can you prove that the latter group is wrong while your group is correct?
If I heard what they said and how they said it I could use the Bible, NOT MY WORDS OR THOUGHTS to test how accurate they were, according to the Bible. Not having heard what you have heard, it would be like trying to show which batters are correct and which are not because one uses aluminum bats and the other uses traditional pine.

@ETpro Your original question asked, “Why do many unbelievers want to hold all believers to a criterion they themselves do not want to be measured by?” and the very first sentence of the question details read, “Why is it many unbelievers want to paint all believers with the same brush…?”
Your point is…..? Are you trying to deny that many unbelievers think every Christian they meet should act or behave a certain way and if not they are hypocrites? You are trying to say that doesn’t happen with no unbelievers? Those unbelievers who would do that do they not want believers thinking they will miss heaven by the way the live their life? I know I don’t paint all unbelievers with the same brush; I know some are very loving people, they act like believers just uncovered by the Blood. Other unbelievers act like selfish, narcissistic, sociopaths. But you will keep playing on words as long as the support lurve rolls in, don’t know who you are trying to catch, maybe trying to hit 50k lurve before the year breaks or something?

@Hypocrisy_Central
I think your last post is proof that you didn’t make your point. You made one now, but it is – again – a different point.

Anyways…. Your situation is not one I recognize…. I think people just as easily dismiss a movie as silly or stupid, as they do someone else’s religion. I actually think they would diss a movie sooner and more often.

When it is about religion, though, the situation turns saur quit quickly. Mostly, I feel, because it hurts people and people get offended sooner. And… I see no difference between non believers and believers in this respect. I have heard more Christians lash out about Islam than atheists, for instance. Or about natural beings like ferries and laprichauns.

Just to be curious… What question did I dodge?

@Hypocrisy_Central If there is a point, it is that it is pointless trying to discuss anything with people who deny they said what’s right there in their own words for the whole world to read. Goodbye.

If we were having a discussion, and you interrupted it to talk about some asinine movie, I’d look at you like you had seven heads, and wonder how quickly I could leave the conversation.

And if we were having a conversation and you interrupted it to talk about your religion, i’d look at you like you have seven heads and wonder how quickly I could end the conversation.

I’m not offended by people talking about their religion in a general sense. I’m offended by Kansas moving to allow student-led prayer before all school events. I’m offended by Texas putting disclaimers against sound science on school textbooks. I’m offended by the religious majority claiming acute butthurt whenever their right to grind the rest of the world under their heel is slightly inconvenienced.

Newsflash – there are seven and a half billion people in the world. Over a billion are Christian of some flavor. It should not be that hard to find someone who actually wants to talk about Jesus. I hear they even have these buildings where people can go specifically to find people who want to talk about Jesus. No reason to bring itinto the school house or grocery store.

@Seek_Kolinahr Why should anyone care when you’re offended if you don’t care when Christians are offended? Seriously.

Your feelings don’t trump mine.

I assume he cares because he specifically asked why atheists get offended by people talking about Jesus.

It’s a reasonable assumption.

@Seek_Kolinahr But you don’t live in Kansas or Texas, so how does it affect you or your world?

You imply that we should care about what offends you, but it’s fairly obvious most atheists here don’t care what offends Christians.

Because my world is populated by people who are being educated in Texas and Kansas. Our future lawmakers and voting public will grow up in those school systems. And our current lawmakers look to each other for justification. So what becomes acceptable in Kansas could become acceptable in Florida.

We are talking about offenses against every non-Christian in these areas. Not offenses against atheists alone.

And I hear, loud and clear, that Christians don’t care whether they offend others.

There is a group in Kansas who is currently pushing to get the study of evolution out of the science classes. They’re afraid that learning about the theory is going to turn their kids into atheists. That is SO stupid. I am so embarrassed for my state.

@Seek_Kolinahr Does it all boil down to non-believers not having control over my mind and my vote?

I personally DO care what you think but am tired of being nice and having God thrown in my face like I have a disease or am brain-dead.

@Dutchess_III Yeah, that’s crazy. I don’t understand denying science in the name of God. But I don’t think some kids praying before school is a huge deal either. In the name of fairness though, the parents could pay to have their way, by sending the kid to Christians school.

@KNOWITALL

Re Why should anyone care when you’re offended if you don’t care when Christians are offended?

I assume you meant ‘Why should any Christian’... But anyways…

One should not offend people, regardless of what someone else did. Ghandi spoke in the line of ‘an eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind.’ And disn’t Jesus that say ‘turn the other cheek”?

We should stop the cycle somewhere and you may not be able to comtrol atheists or @Seek_Kolinahr, but you van control your own behavior.

@whitenoise I do control my own behavior, thank you, but to me, non-believers seem angry that they can’t control us (Christians) and our vote. That is the only coherent response I seem to get anyway.

One thing Seek or someone told me once stuck in my mind, and that was that an atheist group wasn’t allowed in the 9/11 memorial service. I get that that’s wrong.

Why aren’t non-believers getting that calling God a fairytale and a unicorn is wrong?

How long has it been since a Christian went bat-sh*% crazy on a non-believer here for being completely out of line? It’s frustrating for me, too, because if I lose it, I demean my faith and my God, but non-believers seem to think constant lashing out is okay, and it’s not.

@KNOWITALL Are children not allowed to pray before school? I think they are. It can’t be teacher led. At least that is how I understood it, I could be wrong.

@JLeslie Here in my area, because so many non-believers were upset, a Christian ‘club’ was founded.

Those kids pray around the flagpole in the mornings and a LOT of non-believer kids participate during times of trial, like a schoolmate dying or something like that, some because there parents are so against it that they rebel and move towards Christianity. That’s the flip side you don’t hear a lot about.

@KNOWITALL “they rebel and move towards Christianity. That’s the flip side you don’t hear a lot about”

Hah. I’ve been there, and know some others who have. It often doesn’t stick.

@glacial But sometimes it does. Either way, they choose it themselves.

@KNOWITALL Mais oui.

I guess it is tricky. I have to admit a bunch of kids praying in an organized way on school property would probably make me uncomfortable. If it was done in a way that other kids would feel left out. However, I have no problem with a child saying a prayer. I guess there is some sort of blurry grey line for me when it goes from an individual saying a prayer to several getting together to do it. When it is the majority doing it, it causes the minority to feel left out. I don’t like when children feel left out. They don’t like it either. The parents especially don’t like it. I would be one of those parents. I am strongly against influencing very young children away from the beliefs of their parents. That would be a situation I would ask Christians if they would be ok if the school was a majority of Muslims and they organized prayer at the school. Many Christians just laugh off that type of hypothetical situation as impossible and seem to not give a damn about putting themselves in the minority place.

@KNOWITALL Who chooses? A 10 year old?

@JLeslie Sure, kids are just little adults, why can’t they choose?

Remember, I’m in the Bible Belt. The secular crowd were partyers, the Christian’s were the jocks and cheerleaders and nerdles. I pretty much hung out with both, pray with the Christians and smoke with the secular kids. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

@KNOWITALL They are not just little adults. They have less experience in the world, their brains are less developed, they want to be accepted by their peers, they don’t have the self confidence or self awareness to know their own minds or stand up to peer pressure well. Preying on young children is deliberate and disrespectful of their parents.

So, again, if you live in a place that is 90% Muslim, do you want the organized prayer on school grounds when your family is Christian?

@JLeslie I’m not a parent, but I feel that children need a variety of experiences, they need to ask all the questions they want, and I believe they should be encouraged to try new things, and yes, even thing’s that make them uncomfortable at times.

I’m not sure what you mean about preying on young children, do you mean at school events?

Sure, Mohammed doesn’t bother me, I’m interested in other faiths and as long as I don’t put another God before mine, my God is cool with me exploring other religions. I’m not a hater like that, it’s all good and all a process of learning and growing.

@KNOWITALL Well, I am not so open with children under the age of 15. I like children being able to share their holidays and learn about each other and what traditions they have, but Christians meeting every morning for a prayer while my little 7 year old Jewish kid watches all his friends while he waits, and then some kid asks, “why don’t you do it, don’t you believe?” There is going to be some little kid who makes fun of him or bullies him. Kids are not like adults. What happens when your child does put Muhammed before Christ? The Muslim friends have more fun at their Mosque and they get gifts and all their friends are Muslim.

Look at all the Obama haters that go crazy that Obama went to a school in Indonesia that was “Muslim.” What is it? Do they fear the Muslims had influence on him? Even though his mom was basically an atheist, I guess a fallen Christian, not sure how she identified herself. If they can worry about a child going to a school that is predominantly Muslim, then they should be understanding of the situation in the reverse. All too often Christians cannot do it. They cannot put themselves in the minority position. They don’t care.

You should know that if my child went towards Catholicism I would be ok with it. My husband was raised Catholic, and he will be around Catholicism by being with the family. But, I would not be ok with him going to a Baptist church with his friends, it would really bother me, I don’t care if it makes me sound narrow.

I feel that knowledge is power, for children and adults, to a degree. I was always allowed and encouraged to go to church with my friends growing up, regardless of religion. I was exposed to hippe culture/ earth mother’s, Wicca, everything, no holds barred.

If anyone of any religion picks on a child, I’d think the doctrine itself would tell them that’s wrong. That’s true of Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists (all flavors), AOG, etc…kindness and love are taught in all of those I believe.

I’m not having children so it’s really a non-issue.

I’m not sure what problem you have with Baptists, unless it’s the Hellstone and Brimfire preaching and rigid behavior that borders on Amish, but I learned a lot from them, for sure. It’s interesting in it’s own way.

@KNOWITALL “I feel that knowledge is power, for children and adults, to a degree.”

I agree with this. I was definitely the kind of kid who particularly sought out knowledge that appeared to be hidden. I’m absolutely on the side of keeping schools from leading prayer, but I have no problem with groups formed by the students. Kids can definitely learn a lot in those kinds of situations about how different individuals relate to their own faith, and how they treat each other in response to the others’ beliefs.

The reality, @JLeslie, is that different faiths come with different kinds of “perks” – yes, one kid might feel excluded in a certain situation. Well, that’s life (heck, that’s religion, isn’t it?). This hypothetical religious “club” is not going to be the only club in that school. Let the kid who feels left out join another – or join the religious one. It’s not that big a deal.

My experience has been that children not brought up with indoctrination from a young age are more likely to ask questions. So, I don’t see anything particularly threatening in having them join a group that’s of a religion not practiced in the home. Odds are, they will move on once they’ve answered their own questions. If not, then I guess they found the answers satisfying. BUT, for such a thing to exist at a school, I don’t think it should be lent the authority that comes with being led either by the school or by the parents.

@glacial My experience is not that. I never really “questioned” and I was raised by atheists. I am Jewish, so I guess I knew my “religion.” I would think people who believe, tend to be more likely to choose another religion when theirs isn’t working for them. They still have that “believing” gene or something. I know that isn’t always true though. I don’t know what the actual data is on that.

Where I grew up there were people of all faiths, many took classes to get confirmed or for their bar mitzvah, did their holidays. Nobody ever had to feel like one religion was better or worse, we just all had our own religions with our families. It was fine like that, no one was trying to take anything away from anybody. We all celebrated with each other, I trimmed the Christmas tree with my friends and they sometime lit or Chanukah menorah. People brought Matzoh to school on passover for their lunches, none of it was a big deal, but no one was organizing anything, or making people feel on the outside. Even when I was the only Jewsh kid in first grade, and as you can see that stuck with me, it didn’t mean a thing, but it didn’t mean a thing to anyone, it just was a fact.

I did want a Christmas tree when I was a kid, and hated being so flipping bored on Christmas day, but I was not having to deal daily with a different religion or practice thrust in my face.

@glacial Absolutely. All I know is what worked for me, and that’s questioning everything.

I feel like integrity, honesty and kindness were the main points that I found throughout many religion. Even Native Americans accepted the LGBT’s in their community with love which some people still can’t. We can learn something from everything in our history, I believe.

The secular kids were the funnest, their mom’s and dad’s would let us drink beer and stuff, hahahahaha!

@KNOWITALL No wonder atheists have such a bad rep in your parts. The atheists I know rarely drink, almost all have higher educations, are are extremely responsible adults. They tend to be “conservative” not in the political sense, but how they think of life, children, family, etc.

@JLeslie “My experience is not that. I never really “questioned” and I was raised by atheists.”

I’m not sure we’re understanding each other. You were raised by atheists – if you were to join a club of not-Jewish non-atheists, are you really saying you wouldn’t question their beliefs, even to yourself? You are one of the most persistent questioners on Fluther when it comes to faith, so I’m not sure I buy that. :)

As to the club situation, I went to a small high school when I was growing up, and even at that school, there were more clubs than a person could reasonably want to or find time to join. I’m not sure where the “feeling left out” thing comes from, or why it would be specific to faith-related groups.

@KNOWITALL Are we going to have to talk again about how integrity and honesty are not exclusively religious traits? :P

And yeah… my experience was also different from yours. The kids who went to Sunday school were sometimes the hardest partiers! (But let me guess, no true Scotsman… haha.)

@glacial I’m sorry, that’s just not been my experience with hard-line atheists. I find them hard to get along with and contentious, even my own aunt and uncle are very judgemental. Logically I’m sure you’re right, just not what I’ve seen personally.

You mean preachers kids? Absolutely! Kids rebel against all strictures.

@glacial To me “questioning” regarding religion, means searching. I guess we were defining it differently.

I agree there are many different clubs, but in the American bible belt when 97% of the town is Christian, and almost everyone goes to church every Sunday, and people ask, “what church do you go to?” as a matter of normal every day conversation, even if they met you only 5 minutes ago, it is completely different than 10 kids are very religious, 10 kids are in the chess club, 10 kids are on the debating team, etc.

Having said all that, I still think I would lean towards it being ok for kids to pray in the morning before school. I think everyone is free to pray. As long as they are not inviting or pressuring my Jewish elementary age child to come. The Mormons in Utah teach religion right off of school grounds, adjacent to school grounds, and I believe they can get school credit for the class. I am fine with that too. The parents can have their little kids go there for religious school, and the high schoolers can take it as an elective, even kids who are not Mormon if they want to learn about the religion that is all around them. All that is fine with me. I like a comparitive religion class if on school grounds though.

I can’t imagine a Jewish group at primary or secondary school. There are some Jewish fraternities on campus, but they usually allow non Jews in in my experience, although they are primarily Jewish. Atheist Jews don’t tend to discuss their atheism. A lot of them put their kids in hebrew school and still do the bar mitvahs. They congregate in the temples, not public school. Atheist children don’t tend to do outward “atheist” things daily.

@KNOWITALL Oh, I’ll give you “hard to get along with and contentious”, but this has nothing to do with either integrity or honesty. ;)

@JLeslie Yeah, I think we agree on the basics. We’re just using different terminology.

@JLeslie I’m not sure about 97%. Even in my little Mayberry, we have lots of people who don’t go to church but would claim God as their Deity. Thing’s are changing even here.

@glacial Point made, I agree.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/09/26/school-board-in-kansas-unanimously-votes-to-allow-student-led-prayer-at-all-district-events-including-football-games/

@KNOWITALL Ok, 87%. :).

Even at 50%, if it is only the Christians making their daily display, it can easily feel like it is all around you. The country is only 2.25% Jewish, doesn’t it feel like there are more?

@JLeslie Not in my area. We are mostly rural with larger cities (subjective) in between. The outlaying areas are almost all Christian, with other denominations in the city primarily, so basically unless you’re in the city, you can live your entire life without seeing a person of another race or color if you want.

I know exactly three Jewish people and even the Jews here don’t go to Temple from what I understand.

What temple? LOL. For three people? JK. A lot of Jews don’t go to temple.

I meant in the country. Do you feel like there are more Jews than the actual stats in the country? You might not. A lot of times when I meet people from the bible belt they have no idea who is Jewish. They don’t realize which actors, politicians, comedians, etc.

@JLeslie Nah, I heard there’s a temple in Rogersville, MO, maybe even here in Springfield, I’m not sure. I see three in Springfield listings.

Probably more. All I know is the ones I know are super cool and very funny.

This is interesting: http://clio.missouristate.edu/mcooper/mcooper/oral_hist/judaism.htm

@JLeslie It doesn’t surprise me there are Jews in Springfield, although I didn’t know the history you linked. When I saw a doctor in St. Louis years ago he was Orthodox, so I figured that had to be a reasonable sized Jewish community of orthodox at least. Plus, you have some good medical facilities and science oriented businesses in St. Louis, another thing that usually draws Jews.

Funny that it was German Jews who settled there because when my husband and I used to drive up to MO from Memphis; when we started seeing businesses with German names we knew we had made it to the midwest. LOL.

@KNOWITALL

Sorry to pick on your words, again and again, but:

“Even Native Americans accepted the LGBT’s in their community with love[...] ”

Really?, What are you implying? Native Americas are normally nasty people towards others? That it is an exceptional occasion that they show acceptance and love?

Just that you know that I read your statement as bigot and knowing you… this must be a mistake.

@JLeslie, @KNOWITALL
re school prayer
(Off topic, but I guess at the end of this thread it is allowed and you guys brought it up…)

I am a parent and personally I would not accept anyone selling their religious beliefs to my children. In that respect, I also try to be extremely careful myself. Having school prayer sessions, however, comes awfully close to endorsement of a religious belief.

At the Dutch school our kids attended a couple of years ago, for instance, they had a class outing to a local Mosque. Here the Imam was explaining Islamic faith to the children, etc. In all honesty… I already felt uncomfortable about that. Not because I have ill feelings towards Islam per se, but rather for another reason.

When kids are in a school setting, they should be in education mode and open for information that they can base their knowledge and decision rules and attitudes on. I find it very important that they are being taught to respect people and to not judge others on things like race, gender, hair color, body length, etc. I am therefore extremely uncomfortable with my kids being around people that claim they have exclusive access to a version of truth that trumps that of others. This latter, however, is a quality shared by most if not all true believers, including Christians and Muslims.

Someone telling my children that they ‘know’ – without a doubt – how life has come to be and what our purpose in life is, is something I will not have happen. For that reason, I will fight religion in schools with as much power as I can. For that reason prayer has no place in school.

Pray at home, before you leave for school. Or when you get out of bed.

At our house, when we have guests, we always allow and encourage them to pray. At the table before dinner, or when- and wherever their beliefs warrant such prayers. In that setting, I am present as a parent though and I need not worry about unwanted indoctrination of my children.

@whitenoise School prayer I define as the school eading the prayer, which I am completely against for public schools. Where I have mixed feelings is, whether to allow a child to pray during school if their religion demands it. If there is a call to prayer during school hours, should the Muslim child be able to go to a room or corner to pray? Can a Christian child say a quick prayer before he has his lunch? Part of me says yes, we should alllow it, and part of me says no we should not. I have also said in the past people can pray before they arrive to school and after they leave, but if prayer truly is ritualized for 11:00 in the morning for some religion (I made that up) is it interfering with religious freedom to not allow an individual to do it?

The children doing a prayer circle out in the open every morning before school starts really pushes it though. It is creepy to me, and they may not realize it, but it is adults encouraging kids to recruit other kids. No matter what anyone says to me, they may really feel that is not the intent, from my perception that is what it is, and so for me that is reality. However, I have been ok in the past with school rooms being used in the community after school hours if a congregation needs a place to hold services. What do you think about that? Basically, the school just being used as rented space. Say there are only 10 Jewish people in a small community and having a real synagogue is unrealistic. Should the local school be available to have Saturday services? I guess they can just do it at someone’s house. After thinking about it all, it is easier to just say no religion period on school grounds, and not worry about grey lines.

I agree with you about children being in learning mode. I would not want my kid on a field trip to a church or mosque with clergy telling them their religion. Just the short time I have spent in evangelical churches I would not want my kid anywhere near one. A teacher teaching comparative religion at the junior or senior high school level I am ok with (unless we decide to really stick to no religion in school at all) but also very ok with not having the class offered.

@JLeslie

I think we are more or less in tune with our thoughts and doubts regarding this topic.

In itself I am not against individual prayer, but I am against endorsement. Where to draw the line? I don’t know. In general I am not fond of sliding slope arguments, since I don’t believe in fighting ghosts, which this quite often equates. It is a worry, though, where to draw the line.

In all honesty, I am not even sure I am truly believing in full freedom of religion. Would/should we facilitate satanists equally as we do Christians or other religions we feel more at ease with?
What about kids advocating Hare Krishna’s interpretation of Vaishnavism? Advocating positive attitudes on Sha’ria and Islamism? I think it is likely best to keep religion off the school premises.

@whitenoise A couple years ago there were quite a few Q’s about allowing children to wear religious garb to school. Mostly the conversation was about young women wearing a hijab to cover thei hair. Since I tend to think uniforms are the best way to go for school, I would not be ok with breaking a uniform rule for religious garments. Although, some jellies brought up wearing other religious or cultural symbolic items. If the school does not have a uniform it gets more tricky. This is the same sort of thing, where to draw a line regarding religion in the school. Can a kid wear a Christian cross pendant on a necklace? Can a Jewish boy where a yarmulke? I don’t think I have ever heard of a big objection of a Jewish boy wearing one at school. Not during my lifetime, I guess it probably has happened though, maybe even recently.

Here’s the thing, if the rule is there is a uniform and no one can break dress code, then it protects the children I think. I also think God is going to understand. Is God going to punish someone for following the rules, when the rules are basically out of their control? I don’t believe he would. Now the girl does not have to worry about classmates treating her differently, she doesn’t have to go against her parents if she pulls the scarf off, she can just follow the dress code rule.

My kids wear school uniforms now and have no religious rituals at school.

i think indeed uniforms are the best option for schools. (I have had them in a Dutch non-uniform school as well. Their current system seems better to my wife and me.)

@whitenoise Most of my grandmother’s family all had/ have their Cherokee cards, so I am a huge admirer of Native Americans and the way they loved and accepted each other and each other’s differences. :) Studying their religion/ spiritual ways gives me hope for the rest of us.

@whitenoise , @JLeslie for me, the line is drawn when you start requiring that prayer be done, whether it be in the classroom or before a game in the gym or whenever.
Want to meet at the flagpole every morning to pray or do a Morris dance? Ok, as long as me and mine do not have to participate involuntarily.
What an individual wants to do in the way of prayer is fine with me. I am even ok with a few minutes of silence which a pupil can utilize for prayer, meditation, deep thought, mental masturbation or whatever purpose they want as long as they understand what the word “silence” means.

I suppose that I would have to add as long as it does not interfere with the main purpose of the classroom, to educate a couple of dozen students. In this respect, I would have a problem with someone disrupting class to pray several times a day. Other than that, knock yourself out. Pray all day if you need to or just before the final, whatever. Bow your head, do it quietly.

You wanna wear a cross, star of David, pentagram? Fine with me (as long as its not that loud, gaudy faux gold hubcap on a rope chain you could use to anchor a yacht).

Clothing gets a little stickier, particularly if you have a dress code, although as a child of the 60’s/70’s I have a problem with dress codes. They should be flexible enough to accommodate without losing sight of the purpose.

@KNOWITALL

Glad to see that I was right and that your statement was indeed not meant the way you wrote it. I found it already really atypical for you – as I said above.

@whitenoise I’d rather you ask me than just think I’m a jerk, so thanks..

Generally, unless someone tries to cram their beliefs down my throat or judge my own, I’m good. :)

@rojo I am not ok with a moment of silence, because it is bullshit talk for those who want prayer in school. I am not saying you are talking bullshit, I am only saying don’t be fooled. A teacher can call for a silence in the classroom whenever she wants, there does not need to be a school mandated moment where everyone is silent and people can pray or meditate or whatever. I don’t trust some people in the bible belt to not use it as prayer time. The high schools where I lived in the midsouth taught the bible in literature class, and don’t even think that it isn’t their way of getting the bible into the schools. In my opinion the best way to protect freedom of religion is to keep the public schools secular.

As far as no one being forced, it just is really tough with kids. It’s tough to be the one or two who don’t participate, and in my opinion the Christians are not naive to that, they purposely hope the children will join in and come over to Jesus. It is not innocent in my mind, it is not allowing children simply to have freedom to practice their religion, it is much more conniving than that in some instances. Not all, but some. I know Christians would not see themselves as conniving, because they feel people still have the freedom to do what they want, but children are different. Christians often answer that they are fine learning about other religions, but I don’t buy it. If they were bombarded and surrounded by another religion, where those people were quite outspoken, I think they would feel uncomfortable too.

A manager where I worked was organizing prayer circles of some sort with employees before store hours. She didn’t last long. I don’t know what eventually got her fired, but that just doesn’t fly where I am from. Made many people uncomfortable.

@JLeslie, No, I understand what you are saying about the moment of silence, it just doesn’t bother me because it is not, or should not, have a preset, pre-ordained purpose. However, the moment someone says over the loudspeaker “Now let us bow our heads for a moment of silent prayer” then they have crossed the line.

@rojo But, why is the moment of silence even necessary? Why would be the argument for why it is a good idea? Don’t Muslims prays at certain times of the day? Are we going to do the moment to line up with their needs? How do you satisfy everyone? I can’t see how it is possible, better to not try to satisfy any religious needs in some sort of regimented way I think.

@JLeslie fair point, but we are trying to be inclusive (it’s that damned liberal bias) and no, the muslims would get only the same moment of silence. Allowing them to go off several times a day would be disruptive in the classroom setting.
But you do have a point. Regardless of what it is, practice your religion before or after school or on your own time basically. School is for education.

@rojo I would not call myself “inclusive” when it comes to religion. I describe myself as respectful. I don’t see how it is possible to include everyone. We can allow all people the opportunity. For instance, if in a public area we have Christmas decorations, we can also allow Chanukah, and other decorations, but are we really going to try to cover all the holidays? It’s impossible. How many people need to live in a community from a certain religion to warrant including them? How do we make sure we include everyone?

@whitenoise Just to be curious… What question did I dodge?
The question that was asked; why many non-believers hold believers to a standard they can’t keep? You went off to rant about why the question was asked, about how some Christians do it as if that excuses non-believers when they do it, my motives, my reasoning, everything under the sun practically except why many non-believers expect to be perfect when all of the non-believers can’t be either.

@ETpro If there is a point, it is that it is pointless trying to discuss anything with people who deny they said what’s right there in their own words for the whole world to read. Goodbye.
As usual you have selective hearing, and hear what you want. You are a modern day Sadducee so there is no surprise here. See you later, don’t let the redacted. Come again now, you hear?

@Seek_Kolinahr If we were having a discussion, and you interrupted it to talk about some asinine movie, I’d look at you like you had seven heads, and wonder how quickly I could leave the conversation.
You proved the point; if I thought the movie was great and after the discussion turned from aunt so-and-so’s gall bladder operation, or what’s his names car being towed, the movie was introduced—not interrupted—into the conversation you would be offended because a movie was brought up that the person introducing it did not know you hated? Then what would you do, but leave the conversation, I did not hear you question his/her intelligence because they thought it was a good movie as many non-believers allude to one’s choice of faith they don’t like as oppose to just keeping silent and walking away.

I’m offended by Kansas moving to allow student-led prayer before all school events. I’m offended by Texas putting disclaimers against sound science on school textbooks. I’m offended by the religious majority claiming acute butthurt whenever their right to grind the rest of the world under their heel is slightly inconvenienced.
I am offended to have many things shoved down my throat especially when I believe them to be most ungodly, I guess none of that count though. A lot of those ungodly things can affect my great niece’s and nephew’s morals. You are not the only one offended but what you speak of is the future, I am speaking of things shoved down my throat today.

I assume he cares because he specifically asked why atheists get offended by people talking about Jesus.
I am not so much offended, the Bible told me there would be scoffers who were dull of hearing and void of understanding that will attack the gospel to be lovers of themselves and their own fleshly ambitions. It is more of the double standard that is said believers should be perfect or they are fakes when non-believers are no better, if not worse.

Time out! I came across this article. “When you challenge a specific belief you are also, in small part, challenging the person’s understanding of who they are.

For fundamentalist Christians, it is even more complicated than just that. In both direct and subtle ways, they believe their salvation, at least in part, is dependent upon being correct on issues of faith.”

That’s what I ran into in the 80’s. Just. Don’t. Question. Anything. We. Teach. You. Or. You. Are. Not. Welcome. Back.

This maybe has nothing to do with anything in this discussion (which I have been following) but it was interesting none-the-less.

@Hypocrisy_Central

I didn’t dodge the question, I pointed out a fatal problem in your question.

You asked “Why do so many….”. That is not merely a question, it is a statement as well as a question… One cannot answer the question without accepting the statement. The statement is nonsense, so I cannot answer the question.

As such your question is a piece of laden, ironic hypocricy.

If you were to ask “why some…”, then the question may be answerable. I’d say for the same reason so many people do that with so many things in life. It is easier to talk the the talk than to walk the walk. They are hypocrites to a certain extent. As we all are every now and then.

Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye?

@whitenoise The statement is nonsense, so I cannot answer the question.
Your answer was good for your lurve count, but it is valid all the less. It is only nonsense to you because it was not pointing to believers; had it said why many believers do such and such, you would have been all over it to answer. Like a kid caught with his/her hand in the cookie jar, instead of stating your hand was in there, you are trying to question being asked why your hand was in there. What is nonsense is trying to make a point using a book you don’t trust to be genuine, or the word in it of a God you don’t believe exist. That would be like trying to prove time travel by using Back to The Future DVDs.

If you were to ask “why some…”, then the question may be answerable.
So….you duck, dodge, and hid from the question because of hair splitting. So if I would have simply said some, so you can fathom that hardly any unbelievers hold believers to impossible standards; unlike so many believers who do it.

They are hypocrites to a certain extent.
WOW! After all that the genesis of an actual answer. Was it really that hard to do? I know there are believers who are hypocritical, either because they believe they are not doing it, or they really do not have God in them to start with. I am not afraid to say many who take on the cross of Christ are not doing so according to the Bible. Why are you so scared to admit non-believers can have double standards?

@Hypocrisy_Central
I am not scared. Why are you not able to ask a simple question that is not loaded with a statement?

With respect to being a believer or not, I don’t think I have written any statement in the last couple of years that allows you to group me as either one of those. So before you accuse me of having my hands in cookie jars, please get a grip on yourself.

And no… I wasn’t dodging, ducking or doing anything like that. In all honesty, I don’t understand where your smug and condescending choice of words comes from.

As a consequence, I come to detest your argumentative style. You seem so unwilling to enter into a fair and balanced argumentation that it would be born in either a lack of cognitive ability or in dishonesty.

@whitenoise Welcome to the club.