General Question

flo's avatar

Is it the right or wrong thing for the NFL to make kneeling during the anthem finable?

Asked by flo (10812points) 3 weeks ago

https://tinyurl.com/ybehsv2s (Google/kneeling/NFL) or similar
Some people say it’s forced patriotism, to have to stand.

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

120 Answers

seawulf575's avatar

In this situation, I would say yes. As a player, you are a representative of your team and the NFL. Your behavior speaks out and reflects on those organizations. As we saw last year, it had a negative impact on the teams and the league, not to mention the players that couldn’t get a good deal following their actions. If you go to work somewhere, they have a set code of conduct, generally. If you violate that code, you are generally punished somehow. No different here. And if you refuse to follow the rules, you can, in the real world, lose your job.

flo's avatar

@seawulf575 I didn’t get a notification (Activity For You) for your answer by the way.
Ok, it’s not easy to argue that. But that could be just me.

Zaku's avatar

Wrong. They’re controlling jerks.

Demosthenes's avatar

I’m not personally offended by people kneeling during the national anthem, but I’m with @seawulf575 in that the League has a right to set their own rules, especially if they think it will negatively impact their image and/or ratings, so I understand their decision. As someone who never watches football, I don’t care much either way.

flo's avatar

They are not saying “You have to be visible to the viewers, and you have stand.” At least there is that, right?

stanleybmanly's avatar

As I understand it, the players have the option not to appear on the field until after the anthem. It will be interesting to see how many players choose the option.

kritiper's avatar

It’s right. It’s their gig.

Love_my_doggie's avatar

Ugh. Let’s just drop the national anthem from all sports. I’ve never understood why it’s played before every game. I’d much rather pledge allegiance to Max Scherzer’s four-seam fastball or the Celtics’ postseason.

elbanditoroso's avatar

If patriotism has to be forced, it is not sincere. It’s also un-American.

Incredibly spineless NFL owners. The players should strike or boycott.

rockfan's avatar

Doing the national anthem before a football game is just as arbitrary as if a television network did a national anthem before the taping of a talk show. Completely pointless

notnotnotnot's avatar

abolish the NFL

MrGrimm888's avatar

It’s wrong. I wonder if players were wearing MAGA hats, would such a fuss be started? I wager ,no….

gorillapaws's avatar

@seawulf575 Out of curiosity, how would you feel if there was an NFL team that was REQUIRING it’s players to kneel during the national anthem? Under your logic, the team can have a code of conduct so obey it or quit, right?

SergeantQueen's avatar

I agree with what @seawulf575 said.
@gorillapaws if that’s what they do, I can’t control what the NFL does. I have my own opinions on this, but it doesn’t change anything. I can’t change what they (the NFL) views is right or wrong
They probably were receiving lots of negative feedback (apart from the obvious that we all know about, I mean possible contracts lost, money lost, behind-the-scenes stuff) and they decided to just go with the majority? or what they thought was right? They have the final say in what rules they make for their own organization.

Under your logic, the team can have a code of conduct so obey it or quit, right?” Exactly. Even if I or many people don’t agree with it, it’s not a group I’m apart of. It doesn’t affect me so I don’t care.
(This logic doesn’t apply to everything okay, the “It doesn’t affect me I don’t care” logic. If something terrible was happening or something that was genuinely morally wrong, I would care whether it affected me or not. This issue I don’t care for because there’s so much else happening. That’s worth more of a debate

SergeantQueen's avatar

Also, to add, they sign a contract to obey all the NFL’s rules when they sign up or get drafted or however it works. So they are aware of all the consequences + rules and if they are sooo against it they don’t have to be apart of it.
Can’t join a group/ organization /whatever and expect to play by your own rules

johnpowell's avatar

So yeah.. When were the national anthem rules added? Unless you signed this morning there were no mention of it. Are you cool if Apple changes the iTunes EULA saying they can sell what you listen to for advertising purposes? Without your consent…

Players have long contracts.

Zaku's avatar

It’s everyone’s right… to be jerkish. Oh yay.

On the other hand, when a group that represents the main or only option to something, decides to jerkishly say, “these are the terms – take them or leave them”, it’s pushing that position and stepping on other people. It’s a pretty common general practice, and it’s controlling jerkish behavior that’s hard to avoid, and yeah, they evidently have “the right” to do it, but that adds to the degree to which they are being controlling jerks about it.

Zaku's avatar

Oh, and by the way, “forced patriotism” is a backwards way to label it, because it not more patriotic to be conformist and not express what you feel. I’d say it’s more patriotic to call out the problems and make a statement. I’d call the NFL’s attempt to shut down free expression “forced superficial inauthentic conformity”.

ragingloli's avatar

This is nothing more than an expression, by the white ruling class, of the secret desire to force black people back into literal slavery.
The “patriotism” crap is nothing but a transparent front.

flutherother's avatar

It’s the right thing to do, however there might be exceptions. If a player has heel spurs for example.

seawulf575's avatar

@gorillapaws that is a true statement. If a team and the league adopted a mandatory kneel-during-the-national-anthem rule, I would expect all the players to follow that rule. I really don’t see any difference between the two, other than, potentially, the negative impact the latter might have on the revenues of the league.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 the answer to your MAGA hat question is yes, they would be fined

https://www.eonline.com/news/619325/14-crazy-and-ridiculous-fines-nfl-players-have-received

There have been cases in the past when a player put something on their uniform that was provocative and they were told it either had to go or they would be fined.

seawulf575's avatar

@johnpowell I’d be willing to bet that in that long contract that it states somewhere that the rules can change and they will still be expected to follow them. When they change a rule about what unnecessary roughness is, should that new rule only apply to those players that sign on after it was made a rule?

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli that has to be about the silliest comment so far. Not all owners are white, not all players are black. This has nothing to do with race at all. It has to do with revenue and the survival of the league. A lot of teams and the NFL took a shot to the pocketbook last year because of the protests of the players. You seem to forget that this is a business. They are selling a product. If their product offends people, people will stop buying their product.

canidmajor's avatar

@seawulf575, which owners are not white? With the exception of Shad Khan, who is Pakistani American, they all look pretty darned Caucasian to me. And, considering that the movement was started to pertain to police actions against African Americans, I’m not quite sure where Khan’s Pakistani origins apply here.

LostInParadise's avatar

The players are being given the option of remaining in the locker room for the anthem. Staying in the locker room is more unpatriotic than kneeling.

canidmajor's avatar

Sorry, @flo, didn’t answer the Q.

I think it’s wrong to play the National Anthem at the games, therefore, any offshoot behaviors that are dictated during that are also wrong.

seawulf575's avatar

@canidmajor most are white. As you mentioned Shad Khan is not white, nor is Kim Pegula of the Buffalo Bills. Asian-American by the looks of it. And a woman. And if you want to apply their heritage to this debate, how many Pakistanis or Asians enslaved blacks? If you truly want to make the whole thing about race, you cannot suddenly try excluding others because it changes the view of things. If you want to go to the idea that police target African Americans, I’m not sure where protesting the national anthem applies either. I think the whole thing is foolish. I think there are far better ways to take action on an issue. Here’s how their protest comes off to many Americans. They don’t like how African Americans are treated by the police so they don’t want to show respect for the nation that would allow racism like that. That is foolish on so many levels and offensive to others, to boot. How do you think a soldier that lost a leg in battle feels when he sees these overpaid primadonnas showing disrespect? How do you think the families of police officers that were killed in the line of duty feel? How about the fire fighters or any of the other millions of people that are glad to live in a nation that allows them freedoms unlike many others and who are willing to risk it all for those rights to remain in tact? Is our nation perfect? Absolutely not. Are there problems? Sure. But you don’t burn down your house because your faucet starts leaking.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

There should at least be fines, and suspension and firings are warranted. The NFL bosses should not want hundreds of millions of people to boycott their games because some players want to force their dumb political views upon everyone who sees the games. Players are on the job and should not want to offend viewers. No one on other jobs can discuss politics instead of doing their jobs. Most people want to escape from politics by watching games. They should be allowed to do so. The players cannot coherently and consistently tell why they kneel anyhow.

elbanditoroso's avatar

I’m with the players 100%, and I am not going to watch pro football this autumn. I’m going to boycott the NFL owners for their stupidity and disrespect to the players.

ragingloli's avatar

“Land of the free”.
What a joke.

gondwanalon's avatar

The NFL is in the entertainment business. And as such is all about making money. Since the owners are losing money with apparently having players display unpatriotic behavior then they are putting an end to it. It’s PROFESSIONAL football.

canidmajor's avatar

Oh, good grief, @seawulf575, it was a simple question because I truly didn’t know.
Your response to me was wildly overblown. <eyeroll>

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

I am against players who force their dumb ideas upon all viewers, so I boycott them. The players exhibit disrespect for the entire nation and men who fought for it. Freedom has limits. When you are on the jobe, you are not allowed to protest or discuss politics rather than performing work for which you are paid. Kneelers violate our right to escape from politics by watching sports. The NFL should never have allowed this outrage to begin. Colon Kaepernick should have been fined and fired immediately.

seawulf575's avatar

@canidmajor if I offended you, I apologize. I get offended when fools try to make everything about race. And no, you are not the fool that did that.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@gondwanalon – right, they are in the business of entertainment. And I as a consumer, make choices as to what entertainment I choose to pay for (with time and buying from advertisers.

The owners made the decision for me.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@SimpatichnayaZhopa – Kapernick has sued for collusion and ant-trust behavior on the part of the owners for blacklisting him. He’s likely going to win the case.

Remember that Trump made this a patriotism thing. Kapernick was just calling attention to police brutality. Trump made it into a populist crusade.

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

If he wins such a suit, justice has vanished. He protested alleged police brutality. Blacks commit the most crimes and hate the law and cops, so it is only natural that many of them are shot for attacking cops they mindlessly hate. They constantly cry, “Racism”, when they are the worst racists. Ask all of the kneelers why they kneel and their answers vary wildly. BLM is based upon false allegations as is Colon’s kneeling.

seawulf575's avatar

@elbanditoroso I’m skeptical of the success of Kaepernick’s suit. He had a couple good years and then his play fell off significantly. Combine that with his political antics on the sidelines and you have a distraction that many teams would want to avoid, a risk (on his abilities) they might not want to take. And that has nothing to do with collusion or anti-trust. Take a look at Johnny Manziel as another example. Top draft pick, had a couple good showings in his first year, but not extraordinary. Combine that with off field antics and no one wants him. He had to grow up and get his head straight before a CFL team was willing to give him a shot. Kaepernick trying to prove he wasn’t signed for any reason other that what I have stated will be tough. He might have evidence, he might not. He might have hints and allegations which really aren’t enough to push his case.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@seawulf575 I agree, it isn’t a decision until the judge makes the ruling.

If he does win, though, it’s a big deal – not just for Kapernick but for what it says about the owners all working as a group on personnel decisions. It would have major effects.

chyna's avatar

I wasn’t going to put my 2 cents in, but I keep coming back to this.
When I was in my rebellious teen years, in the early 70’s, I sewed a US flag patch on the back of my jeans on the pocket. I was walking out the door and my dad ripped that pocket off and said that I was NOT going to disrespect the flag and all it stood for after he fought in WWII for it. (Sitting on the flag would’ve been disrespectful). I was angry at the time, but as I got older, I understood what he meant.
I understand what the kneeling players are saying, but I think they need another platform to say it. They are sending a message to young kids who have no idea what they are kneeling for, that it is ok to kneel and show disrespect for the flag and the anthem. Kids in pee wee and middle school games are doing it because they saw an NFL player doing it. I honestly would go out on that field and jerk my child off the field if that were to happen. My dad and millions of others have fought so that I didn’t have to.

Demosthenes's avatar

South Park had a good solution to this issue: just redefine kneeling as a way of showing respect for the flag. “Everyone stand, sit, or kneel for the national anthem.” The protest is rendered meaningless at that point.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Sorry, @chyna – that’s what parents are for. The NFL and the players are not responsible for parenting little kids; the parents are. (Just like your dad disciplined you).

If the parents want to teach their children about patriotism, the first amendment, freedom of speech – that is the parent’s choice. It is not the role of the NFL Players to ‘act good’ so that parents can evade their own responsibilities.

snowberry's avatar

Like it or not, when an NFL player signs up, they are also signing up to be a role model. They know this.

If the NFL requires they stand if they are out there during the anthem, they they need to stand, or stay in the locker room, or quit and get another job that doesn’t have those rules.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Let them kneel. It’s neither disrespect nor hatred, but simply peaceful protest. And it really should be no big deal. @SimpatichnayaZhopa Police bratality against black folks on America is beyond alleged. It is in fact every bit as big a tradition as the national anthem itself. I don’t fault you for not being aware of this since I assume you’re somewhere in Eastern Europe or perhaps the Middle East. The truth is that most of the people living HERE are unaware of the traditional function of the police in regard to the black citizens of their country.

ragingloli's avatar

@snowberry
And taking a stand, or protesting, against institutionalised injustice is not part of being a role model?
But bowing to, and groveling in front of oppressive auhorities is?

stanleybmanly's avatar

Excellent point loli! There are times when you emerge from that alternate universe to dazzle us!

janbb's avatar

^^ Agree!

SimpatichnayaZhopa's avatar

During part of a game is not the proper time and place to protest any alleged misjustice. If I pay to see a game, the players work for me and should not offend me with their selfish agendas. I boycott the NFL because it forces such offensive behavior upon all viewers. It is disrespectful to all patriots, including veterans who are offended by such crass disrespect. What other nation would make millionaires of such dumb jocks who play a children’s game? I have American friends, and they say it is wrong to mindlessly hate cops as blacks do. They provoke cops, and then, their people whine when they receive what they deserve. I hear this hate for cops increased during Obama’s reign. I think anyone is wrong to claim cops are all racist against blacks. Doing your job and not offending hundreds of millions of people with ill-timed offensive actions is being a better role model than showing disrespect for a nation that made them overpaid imbeciles and the people who have fought and died to defend it. if you must protest, do it on your won time, not when you are on the job and can lose millions for your employer.

janbb's avatar

^^ And some of us boycott it because it is not allowing players to protest peacefully against police brutality before the game. So there you go.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@SimpatichnayaZhopa – who is the patriot?

The one who blindly follows the rants of a deluded leader?

Or the person who tries to make the country better?

Your paragraph implies that the government and the president is always correct.

American history says otherwise. For that matter, so does European history.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@SimpatichnayaZhopa The time to protest is when you have an audience. If you are offended, you can protest by pouting, stomping your foot and turning your head. Fine! And EVERY nation makes millionaires of dumb jocks who “play children’s games”. The owners earn the REAL money. Your American friends are apparently every bit as ignorant as yourself. Blacks don’t mindlessly hate cops. And those fools who have converted the word patriot to a synonym for stupidity should consider that there hasn’t been a war in the history if this country without black men who fought and died to defend the freedoms they themselves are denied TO THIS DAY in their own fkn country! Before you have the temerity to lecture black folks on ANYTHING, you should dump your moronic friends and haul your hot ignorant ass over here and talk to a few black folks about what the ACTUAL function of the police forces in this country is regarding black people.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@stanleybmanly – fine answer, Agree 100%

seawulf575's avatar

To all of you who are trying to express why players protesting the national anthem is such a good thing, here’s the question for you: Who is the real patriot and role model…the one who protests foolishly or the one that actually goes out to start trying fix the issues that offend them? As a professional football player, you bring a couple important things that could help bring a light and solution to the issue you have. The first is money. Many of the pros are millionaires. The second is celebrity. Sometimes you see these guys step up and help out using both these things. I point out JJ Watt during the hurricane that slammed southern Texas and Houston. He was out there organizing, donating, personally helping. Imagine if instead of offending a bunch of Americans to try making a point that is lost on most people, these players were out bringing the neighborhoods and the cops together instead of apart.

ragingloli's avatar

Ok, now THAT is hilarious.
Condemning them for doing to much, because how dare they, and denigrating them for doing too little. At the same time.

Speaking of doing more, they could donate their money to collective legal action, with the goal of bringing racist, murderous, corrupt cops to justice.
But you would be hollering against that even more.

gorillapaws's avatar

I would say that blind patriotism is the least patriotic thing an American can do. The way minorities have been treated by the police in general (not all minorities and not all police… obviously) is un-American. Protesting those injustices is patriotic.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli I’m not condemning them for doing too much. I’m condemning them for being idiots. I’m suggesting they can use their time, money, and fame for so much more than pissing off Americans. And it hits me as very telling about you that I suggest an alternative to a protest that isn’t working to solve a problem that you rage about and you continue to try ridiculing it. It tells me that you really aren’t about solving problems, you are really just about ranting and stirring up hatred.
As for bringing corrupt cops to justice, I’m all for it. What I’m not for is this ignorant view that all cops are racists or murderers or corrupt. I’ve known many cops in my time and they were good people. Attitudes such as the one you spew is what causes much hate in this world. That is what I am not for. Take Darrin Wilson as a prime example. He is attacked by a thug and ends up shooting him, killing him. The thug’s buddy claims the thug was on his knees and the cop executed him. Idiotic attitudes such as the one you just expressed came to play and Officer Wilson was suddenly on hit lists. Riots tear apart the town. Meanwhile, other witnesses….black witnesses…come forward and corroborate the officers story. That means nothing to idiots that are all about hating cops. In the end, he is rightfully exonerated of wrongdoing, but his life is ruined by the hateful spew of idiots.

LostInParadise's avatar

Why is kneeling unpatriotic? Who wrote the rule that you have to be in a standing position when the national anthem is played? Isn’t it enough to be quietly paying attention? What if the kneelers bowed their heads in prayer? Would that make things better?

seawulf575's avatar

What made it unpatriotic is the players stating they refused to stand to honor a country that would allow social injustice to exist. THEY made it unpatriotic.

stanleybmanly's avatar

OK Before we consider the hurt feelings of the devoted fans, or whether kneeling is appropriate, or how on earth donations to disaster relief might address police brutality, let’s answer the question: Do the players have a legitimate case? After THAT question, can you think of ANY peaceful protest that wasn’t gauged “inappropriate” by a substantial portion of onlookers?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 But realistically what what was the function of the police forces in this country? Let’s you and I agree “to uphold the law.” With me so far? How about the Jim Crow laws or better yet the “unwritten” laws? What if I were to tell you that every black man KNOWS those unwritten laws regardless of his social status? My point is this. What appears to be a rash of police brutalizations of black men is merely a reflection of what has ALWAYS been. In fact it is almost a certainty that the actual numbers have declined precipitously, only now people notice.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “What made it unpatriotic is the players stating they refused to stand to honor a country that would allow social injustice to exist. THEY made it unpatriotic.”

Counterpoint: patriotism is bad
and the NFL can eat shit.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly let’s you and I agree…who commits the most crime against black people? Other black people With me so far? So when cops show up in crime ridden neighborhoods, are they there because the people are black or because the crime is being committed? Because the crime is being committed. With me so far? So if the cops job is to uphold law and order and they stop a black man from committing a crime, that isn’t racist…it’s law enforcement. Let’s start at the beginning. If the crimes weren’t being committed, the cops wouldn’t be there. I find it funny that MLK Jr saw that and spoke to blacks of the way to break the hatred. Are there racist cops? Absolutely. Are there racist blacks? Absolutely. But it isn’t all cops or all blacks. And that is where ignorant protests like the ones from the NFL players (who, by the way, are extremely privileged) cause so many problems.

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot please explain how patriotism is bad. This should be good.

LostInParadise's avatar

@seawulf575 , Then those who remained standing are saying that social injustice is okay. Now that is being unpatriotic.

seawulf575's avatar

@LostInParadise I would suggest that those standing recognize the idiocy of the protest. Your explanation leads to one simple ideal…and if it is your ideal enjoy it…that loving your country is racist. Do you really feel that way? If so, I think we are starting to see the real problem with this country.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: ” please explain how patriotism is bad. This should be good.”

Umm…I wouldn’t even know where to begin. There is nothing good about patriotism.

Of course, I suppose it might depend on what is meant by patriotism. If you define to be patriotism to be a fondness for ice cream, I wouldn’t have much to say. But if it is anything close to dictionary definitions or how the term is used here in the US, patriotism is really fucking awful.

How do you define the term? I don’t want to make any assumptions.

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot so you are one of those “it depends on what the meaning of the word “is” is” people. Please. Go find a definition, or define it yourself. You ask me, I’m going to find a dictionary and give you that definition. After all, it was you that said patriotism was bad, so one would assume you have some definition in mind or you are just trolling.

flo's avatar

I lost track of who said it but to whoever wrote something like:
…instead of performing the task that they are paid to do, they kneel and that’s wrong
Standing during the anthem is not part of the job is it? I mean the job is strictly the sport itself, am I right? I agree there is no need to play the anthem before whatever game.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575 – Fair enough.

You have chosen Merriam Webster today:

“love for or devotion to one’s country”

What the shit is this supposed to mean? “Country”? Fuck country.

That was boring.

kritiper's avatar

@notnotnotnot Geez, you sound like a total traitor or anarchist. I suppose you know the only place for someone like that is against the wall?
Wish I could be there for you! (And I don’t mean to take your place.)

SergeantQueen's avatar

@notnotnotnot Loving your country isn’t bad. Not sure where that idea came from. If you are from America (or any country) You should love it. Now, if there is something truly bad happening in your country and you don’t feel safe, that’s understandable. But it’s not wrong to be patriotic.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@kritiper: “Geez, you sound like a total traitor or anarchist. I suppose you know the only place for someone like that is against the wall?
Wish I could be there for you! (And I don’t mean to take your place.)”

^ There we go. This is patriotism.

@SergeantQueen – Does “country” mean the government? The people that are part of the country? The government’s history of domestic and foreign policy? The current government?

This level of abstraction doesn’t seem too useful to get behind. So, saying “love of country” means little. It’s open to all kinds of interpretation – and that seems to be the point. It’s a useful term that certain groups within a country sell to others because it’s a political tool.

SergeantQueen's avatar

Doesn’t have you mean you love the government or even some of the people.
It means you love your countries values, what it stands for, the freedoms you have, the culture, how the country comes together and helps those in needs during attacks, how you have so much opportunity in your country, etc.
You don’t have to 100% love and support the government to be patriotic, although that could be a part of it.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “It means you love your countries values, what it stands for, the freedoms you have, the culture, how the country comes together and helps those in needs during attacks, how you have so much opportunity in your country, etc.”

“country’s values”? What does this mean? What can it mean? The people who make up the US don’t share any values. You can get more granular and start to have some useful categories, but “country” serves very little utility when discussing values, or “what it stands for”.

And I don’t see “country” “coming together at all and helping those in need during attacks”. From my perspective, most of the victims of “attacks” within a country are those who share the same country as those perpetuating the attacks.

SergeantQueen's avatar

You question literally everything everyone says and questioning isn’t a bad thing but you need to sit and take in whats being said and understand it on your own instead of diverging it with questions. When most of what you are saying isn’t right, namely your “Fuck Country!” and “Patriotism is bad” comments. In some cases, it could be bad, but I believe that’s when you take it to such an extreme that I believe it’s called Nationalism. When you think you are better than other countries.
Having pride and faith in your country is patriotism and that is in no way bad.

Country’s values. What your country stands for. America’s flag has symbols to it aside from the 13 stripes are for the 13 colonies, 50 stars for 50 states. The Red on the flag means Valor, white is innocence and purity and blue is justice.
America has a lot of values.

Independence and freedom. We have lots of freedoms, freedom of speech (which doesn’t mean freedom of consequences FYI. Everything you say will have an effect and using freedom of speech as an excuse is weak) We are allowed to talk trash about our government and protest without being killed (although it does sometimes happen when military gets involved)

Equality. The United States is supposed to be equal. Although, can’t say any country is 100%
equal.

A Voice. Everyone wants their voice to be heard, not everyone feels it is heard through simple voting. Kind of tying in with freedom of speech, protesting, raising awareness, etc are all ways we are able to show our voice and make it heard.

These are a few things that pretty much every everyone values. so your remark, ”The people who make up the US don’t share any values.” doesn’t make any sense. We do. Sometimes there is conflict, sometimes we don’t agree on things. But as a whole, there is a lot we do.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Nice answer sergeant and you get the g a you deserve. But I differ with you when it comes to which policies are endemic to blind misguided nationalism. I should think that at the forefront of these would be the routine recital by rote of slogans and oaths without a thought as to the truth of any of them. How many times have all of us recited the pledge of allegiance with any thought on whether or not this a land of “liberty and justice for all”?

SergeantQueen's avatar

@stanleybmanly I do agree. Especially when you are reciting/ and or supporting it without knowing what it means. Might be different though if you understood it. Like truly understood what it means to “Pledge allegiance” to something because to be honest, I don’t know if I do.
Same with the Liberty and Justice for all. It isn’t always the case, but is said like it is.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@SergeantQueen: “America has a lot of values.”

Name one.

@SergeantQueen: “Equality. The United States is supposed to be equal.”

The US ranks very high on inequality scale. “Supposed to be”?

@SergeantQueen: “These are a few things that pretty much every everyone values. so your remark, ”The people who make up the US don’t share any values.” doesn’t make any sense. We do.”

The population of the US believes in equality? The US?
I live in the other US.

SergeantQueen's avatar

@notnotnotnot I named like 3 or 4 values read my answer again.
I said supposed to because there are laws put in place that make certain things illegal, such as not paying people equally, not hiring because of race. But it still happens anyways, despite the laws.

SergeantQueen's avatar

And yeah, I’d say everyone I’ve met supports equality. and I don’t know many people, aside from extremists, who don’t believe in equality.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@SergeantQueen: “And yeah, I’d say everyone I’ve met supports equality. and I don’t know many people, aside from extremists, who don’t believe in equality.”

Tell me how popular the idea of reducing income inequality is in the US? How about massively redistributing wealth from the top to the rest of the population?

notnotnotnot's avatar

@SergeantQueen – ^ You’re going to find that a more valuable categorization for discussing these (or any related) issues, is going to be class, not country.

SergeantQueen's avatar

I have to admit I don’t know much about income inequality so I can’t answer that.
I was talking about equality of gender, race, etc

notnotnotnot's avatar

^ This is not a mistake. Class is not something people in the US learn about. In fact, we’re sold the concept from birth that class doesn’t exist.

But even talking specifically about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc – I’m not living in a country that shares values here. I see a country that committed a genocide of the native population, dragged a people from Africa in chains and enslaved them, refused to deal with the intergenerational effects of slavery, still treats people of color as inhuman, reluctantly gave women the vote less than 100 years ago, and is being reluctantly dragged into accepting non-binary gender and sexual orientation.

I suspect that the average poc in this country would be surprised to hear that this country supports equality.

And most importantly, where things really matter (class), the US has an economic system that is brutal and immoral. It’s an obscenity.

SergeantQueen's avatar

Class, as in Middle class and upper class? I was never told it didn’t exist.
I am aware that upper class is seen as “better” and doesn’t always have to pay taxes and gets away with scamming, I just don’t have numbers.

Every country has done something terrible like that. Acting like America is the only one is stupid.
We made mistakes.
Terrible ones.
You learn from history and you teach it and you don’t repeat it. Acting like we owe black people stuff because of slavery is stupid. No one was alive to have experienced it. Same thing with the other stuff you mentioned. They happened so long ago that the most we can do is teach kids about it and teach them why it was wrong and why we don’t do that anymore.
History repeats itself which is why it’s important to educate because if you know the causes/ signs something bad is going to happen, you can possibly prevent it.

Plus, you aren’t taking current examples from which there are plenty, and not many of the current examples are being supported by everyone. Examples: unequal pay, discrimination, police brutality.
Slavery and the whole thing with Native Americans, for the most part, were widely supported.

stanleybmanly's avatar

It works out that our system works best once it is understood that the truly great freedom at the foundation of it all is the “freedom” to exploit one another. And I agree that the key issue here and the fundamental topic that must be discussed is CLASS and the current open and undisguised class war. Who wants to answer the question “which class is winning?”

seawulf575's avatar

The country is the people and the government, true, but it is more the ideals that founded this country. It is those ideas that allow you to freely voice your opinion. There are other countries where you couldn’t do that. It is those ideals that allow the NFL players to protest. There are other countries where they aren’t allowed to do that. It is those ideals that allow you to pursue a living that you like. It is those ideals that offer up opportunities to succeed or fail based on your own abilities. The flag and the national anthem are symbols of these ideals.
Now, if you find these ideals offensive, I suggest you go find a country whose ideals are more in line with yours.

SergeantQueen's avatar

@notnotnotnot Go up to people on the street and ask if they support racism, police brutality, slavery, income inequality, all of that. I bet everyone will say no. Not because they don’t want to look bad, but because the average person isn’t a racist asshole.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 you’re right. Those ideals are worthy of fighting for and protecting. Let the football players kneel. The irritation and inconvenience of being reminded that “all is not peachy here in heaven” is worth it. But I’m glad the conversation is shifting to the increasingly threatening situation around ECONOMIC rights. At bottom, THIS is the real reason for Trump’s enthronement, and proof positive that we urgently need to address the issue and SOON.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@SergeantQueen: “Go up to people on the street and ask if they support racism, police brutality, slavery, income inequality, all of that. I bet everyone will say no. Not because they don’t want to look bad, but because the average person isn’t a racist asshole.”

I wish I shared your optimism.

Not only do I believe that people wouldn’t want to look bad – I don’t even think they understand how racist they are. I live in “liberal” suburban Massachusetts. Segregation here is intense, and it’s not an accident. People use terms that are considered polite and refined, but often they are talking about race (and class).

But let me turn this back to our topic (patriotism). Even though the US objectively scores very poorly on societal health measures, and there are tons to criticize it for, I’m opposed to patriotism even for those people who happen to live in countries which score better on these scales. The tendency for human tribalism shouldn’t be encouraged – at least at an arbitrary level.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The principal reason that calls to patriotism should be resisted is that they are calls to substitute emotion for abstract thought. It’s the call to “do your duty” without any consideration for the motives of those determining EXACTLY what my duty should be. For example, whose “duty” should it have been to die in the jungles of Vietnam or have your arm blown off in the wastes of Iraq?

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “The country is the people and the government, true, but it is more the ideals that founded this country. It is those ideas that allow you to freely voice your opinion. There are other countries where you couldn’t do that. It is those ideals that allow the NFL players to protest. There are other countries where they aren’t allowed to do that. It is those ideals that allow you to pursue a living that you like. It is those ideals that offer up opportunities to succeed or fail based on your own abilities. The flag and the national anthem are symbols of these ideals.”

…to you. Many people see the national anthem and flag as representative of the forces that have consistently fought against these things.

@seawulf575: “Now, if you find these ideals offensive, I suggest you go find a country whose ideals are more in line with yours.”

Whatever freedoms that are afforded people in the US or any country – have been fought for, and are continually being fought for. They are not given to us. They are taken. And if you don’t fight to keep them, they disappear. Kaepernick exercising these “rights”, only to find out that these rights don’t necessarily exist, and there are penalties to pay, is how we figure out if we’ve been fighting to keep these rights.

The privatization of everything means that the common refrain of “but it’s a private business” can be employed whenever any apparent free speech issue doesn’t show well.

By the way, you should know by now that it’s embarrassing to use the “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you move” line. It’s a self-own.

stanleybmanly's avatar

And make no mistake. The minute those freedoms we ALL cherish show the slightest sign of impeding the transfer of wealth to the top, those freedoms will be curtailed and abridged. DEPEND ON IT!

notnotnotnot's avatar

^ precisely

Tribalism based on country is useful for people who want to keep us focused on something other than class. The rich aren’t patriotic in the country sense. They would find this laughable. But the middle/working class are the target demographic for the concept of patriotism. It’s easy to sell wars and a complete distraction. Fuck, the Republican tax bill from just a few months ago was a massive redistribution of wealth upwards, and the vast majority in this country don’t even know it.

snowberry's avatar

Standing because it’s part of the rules of my job, and groveling are not the same thing. If you don’t like the rules then quit and get another job!

Problem solved.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@notnotnotnot: “The privatization of everything means that the common refrain of “but it’s a private business” can be employed whenever any apparent free speech issue doesn’t show well.”

@snowberry: “If you don’t like the rules then quit and get another job!”

seawulf575's avatar

@snowberry exactly. @notnotnotnot If you go to work at McDonalds, you are supposed to dress a certain way. Does that mean you give up your right to decide what clothes you will wear when not at work? No. It means McDonalds has a dress code to project a certain image to the customers. My own job has restrictions on what I can say or do when at work. Does that mean I don’t have the right to free speech? No. It means they have a set of rules that they expect to be followed. If the rules aren’t followed, there are processes for disciplinary actions that can be taken. Eventually those could lead to termination.
So now to the crux of the difference between my view and yours is that I take into account social responsibility as well as social justice. You feel that the players have all the rights with none of the responsibility and that the owners and the NFL, and the public for that matter, have all the responsibility and none of the rights.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: ”@notnotnotnot please explain how patriotism is bad. This should be good.”

Was it good?

@seawulf575: “My own job has restrictions on what I can say or do when at work. Does that mean I don’t have the right to free speech? ”

Rights have no (as in zero) meaning when they can’t be exercised. The fact that employment, which is a requirement in a capitalist system in order to survive, usually means that you are working for a private corporation, which means that you are able to to use the “but it’s a private business” and “If you don’t like it, go find another job” lines. What you are expressing are arguments against capitalism, as it’s quite incompatible with democracy.

But let me stick to the specific NFL issue. Let’s take Kaep. He works his whole life to become a football player. He’s being asked by his employer to do something besides play football. Does the NFL have a right to be total pieces of shit and demand that their employees play theater as well as play football? Sure. Of course they do. Can they demand that each of their players do a dance every Thursday night while singing country songs about drinking Coors© beer? Sure. Can they demand that football players spend a few minutes before each game recommending that the US invade Iran? Sure.

They can make workers do anything they want. But this is really an indictment of capitalism.

Saying that people are allowed to exploit other people is not a statement on why they should be able to exploit them. And when the question is not about whether people in power can get away with bad shit – it’s about whether they should be able to, and how we are going to stop them.

The NFL is horrible, and their use of worker control and humiliation in service of patriotism, which we’ve already established is shit, is not something to be bragging about. It’s an example of what we need to fight against.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: “You feel that the players have all the rights with none of the responsibility and that the owners and the NFL, and the public for that matter, have all the responsibility and none of the rights.”

I am quite confused about this statement here – especially with the word “responsibility”. What does this mean?

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot why am I not surprised you are confused by responsibility?

rojo's avatar

I do not think that we, as individuals outside of the situation have the ability to judge the right or wrong of this particular situation.
One one hand we have players who say that this is a protest about one thing and one the other had you have others who say that it is about the flag and patriotism.
I tend to go with those who choose to take the stance and believe theirs is the real reason.
Should the owners (interesting choice of words here) be able to tell the players what to do? In my opinion, no. We are supposed to be past the slave/master scenario of a hundred years ago.
Just me but if some fucker fined me for kneeling you better bet that I might just “oops” drop that pass that would have made the winning touchdown or maybe missed that block that allowed the QB to make that winning touchdown pass. Hey, sorry, shit happens. And, since 70% of the NFL players are black if all of them stood up for each other then they could bring the owners and the franchise too its knees by standing together as a block. What are they, slaves or workers with rights as individuals and as a group? This is why the right has been fighting to lessen the influence of unions for decades. It is time the workers stood up to their massas and showed them who has the real power here.

seawulf575's avatar

@rojo spoken like a true racist. You see the race in the situation. What about this: ever have a job that had rules? Ever have to show up at a specific time? Ever had dress codes or behavior codes you had to follow? Guess what? So do the NFL players. Yeah…they can all band together and bring the owners to their knees! And we saw the results of that…viewers dropped off, fans stopped going to the games, merchandising dropped. Yep, they can bring the owners to their knees. But did you stop to think that if the owners are brought to their knees, their own jobs could go away? There were a number of players up for free agency. Good players. Usually that means a lucrative offer from some other team. These guys couldn’t get a good deal offered no matter what. Too much drama with these primadonnas. No team wanted the headache. And that isn’t unique to the protests. We have seen time and again where players that have disciplinary issues get cut even thought they are good players.
The players have jobs. Those jobs come with certain rules of behavior on and off the field. It’s the price of admission for getting the job that makes you a millionaire. Time to get over it. Your whole argument about slaves and masters falls apart when you add in the FACT that these players are given substantial pay to play a game for a living.

notnotnotnot's avatar

@seawulf575: ”@rojo spoken like a true racist. You see the race in the situation.”

Classic.

But you do make a compelling case against wage slavery and the NFL. So, I think we’re probably in full agreement, including with my original statement….

patriotism is bad
and the NFL can eat shit.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 Your view of this is warped and particularly distorted if you perceive Rojo’s take as racist. There’s an intersection of issues and symbols here. Freedom of speech, patriotism, the eternal tension between labor and management —take your pick. To me, the big problem for conservatives is that the doctrine itself boils down to resistance to change, and therefore severely disadvantaged in the long run when it comes to matters of social injustice. When you step back and consider it, protest is ALWAYS inappropriate. Those threatening to disrupt the status quo are ALWAYS troublemakers, and in this instance the sanctity of the gladiatorial combats must not be violated by demonstrations in the circus arena. Those opposed to the kneeling are missing the point. The debate shouldn’t be about whether or not a football game is the appropriate place to protest racial injustice. IF police brutality is an established policy against black men, THERE IS NO PLACE TOO HOLY TO CALL ATTENTION TO IT.

notnotnotnot's avatar

^ ga

@stanleybmanly: ”@seawulf575 Your view of this is warped and particularly distorted if you perceive Rojo’s take as racist.”

seawulf is exhibiting the results of years of right-wing racist propaganda that attempts to see racism and anti-racism as the same thing. Note: the same has been going on with fascism and anti-fascism as well more recently. It goes something like this…

According to them, if you live in a country that has been drenched in racism since its conception, like the US, the only way to resist active racism (both institutional and individual) is to do nothing. The mere act of calling out racial injustice is tantamount to donning a white hood and burning a cross, because in order to call out racism, you need to talk about race. And since race only should work in favor of white power, efforts to fight it are met with claims of “seeing race” or “playing the race card”.

They’ll then move on to “but I thought race didn’t exist?” horseshit. As embarrassed as they should be by going this route, they really think they are expressing the desires of a post-racial paradise. Yet, it’s primarily based on twisting and weaponizing the words of civil rights activists in a way that conflates race as a historical and sociologically-useful term with race as a biological term.

I suspect @seawulf575 knows that this is what he is doing, and doesn’t seem to care that it’s quite transparent.

Fighting racism does not equal racism, despite right-wing Orwellian attempts to frame it as such.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Let’s see, you hit freedom of speech, patriotism and you even brought in your socialistic views of workers. AND you even tried defining how conservatives think. Yet at no time did you go into the slave area as @rojo did. You didn’t talk about the massas. If you can’t see how racist that went, you might need new glasses. And since he did go there, I felt obliged to point out that these players are getting paid extremely well to play a game. They fought to get onto a pro team. They gladly signed a contract with that team and agreed to obey the rules. None of that sounds like slavery to me, does it really to you? AND as for the freedom of speech and patriotism, my statement stands. They agreed to work to certain standards. I’m willing to put my next paycheck on the fact that there is something about obeying the rules of the team and the NFL in their contracts since they are representatives of both. They most certainly can retain their right to free speech. But what you and all the rest of these liberal tools are missing is that with all rights, there comes a certain responsibility. They are not guaranteed the right to say or do whatever they want and everyone has to support them. If there are negative consequences of their actions, that is social responsibility. Don’t ask @notnotnotnot, he has no clue as to what that means. If I decide I want to start preaching the bible at work, I can be fired. That is one of the rules. I still have the right to do it, I just have to be willing to accept the consequences. Just because I might choose to exercise my right to free speech, my company doesn’t have to give into my desires. They have the right to say that is inappropriate. If I continue, they have a right to fire me. But that is fair.
As for the worker/management garbage you are spewing, let me remind you these guys are unionized. They all have a contract to work with. And as with all contracts, it is an agreement to behavior and performance by both sides of that contract. The owners have to obey their side of it and the players have to obey their side. This isn’t a case of the big, bad management keeping the poor little guy down. In fact, each of these players is probably in the top 5% of income in the world. I have a really hard time feeling sorry for them.
And in the end, people like me don’t have to get the point behind the protests. If the point is that idiotic and obscure, then it is silly in my book. And again…I am under no obligation to support their foolishness. And while you are trying to paint me and all conservatives as uncaring fools that don’t want change, you might want to go back and see that I have actually suggested more constructive ways to bring on the change they want other than an idiotic protest. That is something that not one of you liberal tools have done. All you have done is rail against anyone that doesn’t support the poor, little, helpless players.

seawulf575's avatar

@notnotnotnot actually, I believe I am farther along the evolutionary trail than you when it comes to racism. I’m suggesting ways to correct problems and I am not the one rushing to call a new rule that stops what was an unpopular display racist. I find it funny that liberals ALWAYS rush to throw racism into every conversation. Here’s a clue…Obama ruined it for you. The race card was thrown so many times early on in his administration that it lost all effect. Now when you throw it, you look desperate.

Aethelwine's avatar

spoken like a true racist.

I get a similar reply from homophobic/transphobic conservatives when I try to educate them on LGBT matters. I’m the intolerant one according to them because I won’t accept their intolerant beliefs.

“Tolerance does not mean tolerating intolerance.”

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 I remain convinced that you and yellow dog both would abandon the dark side if you only would expand your perspectives. Kneeling at a football hame may well be idiotic, but it forces the question “why are those idiots kneeling?” And when a 6 year old turns to his or her irate parent to ask that question, what should the honest answer be? Do you think the players honestly don’t believe that black men aren’t getting a square shake from the police? Pampered and overpaid, perhaps, but if true, even you should appreciate that to risk losing all that luxury and “easy” money over a matter of conscience is one of those traits to be applauded. And there’s no better place to draw attention to such an issue than venues designed to distract one from the realities of life.

seawulf575's avatar

@Aethelwine when the topic isn’t about racism or LGBT issues and you try making it about that, then yes, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

flo's avatar

No anthem before (or at any time) the games, no probelm.

Demosthenes's avatar

@stanleybmanly That’s an idealistic view of this, but unfortunately what has ironically and inevitably happened is that kneeling at a football game hasn’t started a conversation about police brutality, it’s started a conversation about kneeling at a football game.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly if a 6 year old asks the question, the answer is pretty simple…they are idiots. They have a great opportunity to actually make a difference in their neighborhoods but they don’t want to take that opportunity. Or more specifically, they don’t want to MAKE that opportunity. Even a 6 year old can see that. Trying to make some obscure statement instead of taking action is foolishness. And that is why I have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with them feeling blacks are treated unfairly by the cops. I have a problem with them protesting against the nation that allows them to be millionaires by playing a game. I have a problem with them associating the entire nation into their little racist minds. I have a problem with them trying to take advantage of television time that they didn’t pay for to make their idiotic statements. I don’t watch football because I want to see a political protest. I watch it because I like it. Now I will watch college football instead because then I don’t have to deal with this idiocy. If the NFL crashes and burns, that is okay with me.

ragingloli's avatar

Analogous to that, the answer to the question “Why does the White Rose oppose Hitler?” is “They are traitors.”

Aethelwine's avatar

@seawulf575 Kneeling is about racism. End of story. You need to check your privilege.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@Demosthenes Absolutely true. The issue isn’t about the why? But eventually with enough kneeling, people will be forced to consider the issue. Even for all of my cynicism, I believe that people are basically decent. All of the evils afflicting us involving human and civil rights persist because they are allowed to fester if we can manage to get by while ignoring them. There will come a time when the @seawulf575 impulse: “so what if black folks are getting beaten. I don’t wanna know about it, and it certainly isn’t worth screwing up the first 2 minutes of MY football game!” Others will get the message or at least ask: “Is it true”?

flo's avatar

What if it were an anti abortion or pro abortion anthem, that was being played? It wouldn’t make sense. Same here, it’s too divisive. Is not like the rule of having to wear the uniform, (I think someone brought it up) etc.

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