Social Question

Demosthenes's avatar

Was Trump racist in telling AOC et al. to go back to where they came from?

Asked by Demosthenes (7121points) 1 month ago

Yes, how shocking. Trump tweets are again the #1 story in the news right now.

The reason being that Trump recently tweeted (without mentioning names) that AOC and her “squad” should go back to the crime-infested countries they came from instead of criticizing the U.S. and saying how it should be run.

He doubled down on his previous tweet this morning. More info here: https://www.npr.org/2019/07/15/741771445/trump-continues-twitter-assault-on-4-minority-congresswomen

So what do you think? Was it racist of him to say that? Should he apologize?

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173 Answers

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Racist? No. Tactless….Yes.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Once again, racist is as usual somewhere up the track from THIS trainwreck. STUPID is once again the operative word, with racist merely the sideshow.

zenvelo's avatar

Yes, it was racist, because he was singling out racial minority Representatives, even though three of the four were born in the United States. He was signaling to his supporters that they are not really legitimate Representatives..

hmmmmmm's avatar

I can’t believe you’re even asking this question.

Demosthenes's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me In general, I find the word “racist” overused, especially when it comes to Trump. But I do think the argument for racism can be made here. He called them out because they’re non-white immigrants or descendants of immigrants. If a white congressman were criticizing the U.S. in the same way, would he be telling them to go back to Europe? Of course not. He’s calling them out because of who they are, not just because of what they say. He’s diminishing their status as Americans and their “right” to criticize the U.S.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I swear this is one just plain impossibly DUMB turd of a man. Should he apologize? When has Trump EVER apologized for anything? He SHOULD heroically plunge his head in the bowl of the nearest toilet and drown, thus sparing the country the remaining year of perpetual embarrassment.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Demosthenes I suppose you can look at it that way. I see it more as demeaning foreign culture and a little xenophobia and ignorance rather than full on racism. Nothing he says surprises me now.

ragingloli's avatar

When you assume that someone was born in another country, based purely on their skin colour, then tell them, just like is so common with racists, to “go back where they came from”, with a history of unrepentant birtherism, then it is racist.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Yeah, i’d say it is when you put it in that light.

Stache's avatar

I love how white people try to tell people of color what isn’t racist.

ragingloli's avatar

I love how you assume that we are all white.

Stache's avatar

Check my edit.

ragingloli's avatar

I forgive you.

hmmmmmm's avatar

Trump: “So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly…...”

“originally came from” is doing a lot of work here. 4 of these women “came from” the United States. While I agree that the the US government is a complete and total catastrophe, you know that he’s not referring to the US here. He’s insinuating that the women are not from the US. I wonder what makes someone born in Michigan, New York, or Illinois “not from” the US?

So, yes – this is a xenophobic tweet. But it’s also racist because it’s making claims about US-born citizens based on something other than their citizenship.

He continues…

Trump: ”....and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how….”

Ok, so he is explicitly making a claim about these women being from somewhere other than the US. He’s turned these women into the “other” – not US citizens who are elected US officials.

He then goes on to talk about how broken and crime-infested “these places” are. Detroit, Chicago, and NYC?

Trump: ”....it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out your free travel arrangements!”

He’s advocating that they leave the country. The president of the US is advocating that government officials leave the US to go to foreign countries based on skin color or some other fucked up shit.

Trump isn’t hiding his racism and xenophobia here. He’s playing it up to appeal to his racist, xenophobic base. So, there’s no real guessing or discussion needed to figure out if his tweet is racist. It clearly is, and that was his intention.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

You’re giving him too much credit. I don’t think it was thought out like that at all. It was just him spewing tweets as they came to his mind.

Stache's avatar

Go to any news FB page and read the comments of his supporters. They agree with him! They are saying the same ignorant things Trump has said. They are also telling the congresswomen to go home.

rebbel's avatar

I wonder what Melanie thinks of this…

KNOWITALL's avatar

I don’t like the words he chose to use, ya kinda racist.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Indeed we are giving him too much credit in attributing to him the characteristics common to most human beings. We have had stupid Presidents and racist Presidents, but never an individual so eager to OPENLY exhibit BOTH. There is actually a shocking sort of honesty in this, but it is in the nature of the honesty of a dog taking a giant dump on your shoe.

rebbel's avatar

Gullible, is what I would call it.

kritiper's avatar

I love how people of color try to tell white people what is racist.

ucme's avatar

Far more disturbing is that the crass, idiotic words will resonate with those who will again vote his arse into the white house…appealing to the lowest common denominator.

stanleybmanly's avatar

That is the REAL worry. If he survives until the upcoming race, it will be the most clearcut referendum on bigotry AND stupidity in the nation’s history. And my great fear is that we are as stupid as we appear.

hmmmmmm's avatar

It also sucks that these women have been attacked by Pelosi and their own party, and now have the president telling them to essentially go back to Africa, and Lindsey Graham saying that they’re all “communists” who hate the US.

If only there were an opposition party.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Stupid – - yes

Sixth grade – - yes

Right out of his father’s mouth – - -yes

Racist – - – - – - YES and he doesn’t care because he has his followers that agree and want to make ‘Murica white again.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Several of them are acting pretty dumb too though, just in a different way.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I wonder what Melanie thinks of this…

Melania? Her “I really don’t care, do u?” jacket was a clear statement of her ethos.

I doubt she thinks about much beyond how to remain wealthy and sheltered.

Call_Me_Jay's avatar

I love how people of color try to tell white people what is racist.

That’s so crazy that people who have experienced it might know more than you!

gorillapaws's avatar

@hmmmmmm “If only there were an opposition party.”

Justice Democrats is about as close as we can get right now.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

He’s an idiot.

flutherother's avatar

Trump’s tweets were racist and the comments of a fascist who doesn’t believe the opposition has a right to exist. Racist, misogynist, undemocratic and hateful words from the worst president in the history of the United States of America.

kritiper's avatar

@Call_Me_Jay Who are you talking to? Me or @Stache ? (See his first post above.)

Dutchess_lll's avatar

God I can’t wait till next year. I want my country back.

Stache's avatar

@kritiper Your comment was absurd.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@Dutchess_lll: “God I can’t wait till next year. I want my country back.”

If you think things were good prior to Jan 2017, you’re the problem.

JLeslie's avatar

He is a total idiot, and worse Fox News and others are trying to spin it to mean something else. Anyone who believes the spin they are putting on it seriously needs help.

Just unbelievable.

No, I guess it’s totally believable.

kritiper's avatar

@Stache And yours wasn’t?

kritiper's avatar

@Stache Perhaps I should have worded it like you did:
I love how people of color try to tell white people what isn’t racist.
Would it make a difference?
It’s funny how people of different races think their definitions of racism are correct and that other people of another color (or colors) definitions are not correct.

Isn’t it all just the same?

Stache's avatar

No, my comment wasn’t absurd considering the history of racism against people of color in are country. Your privilege reeks.

kritiper's avatar

And it will continue to be historical unless people stop dredging the subject up and trying to rub someone else’s nose in it.

Stache's avatar

@kritiper You really are clueless.

Stache's avatar

I can’t believe what I’m witnessing in 2019. People hurt by racism and those who are allies who are calling out the racists are being called racist. I’m not saying anyone here said this on this thread but I have seen it mentioned here before. I’m also seeing it from Trump apologists on the news and on the internet. @kritiper is even suggesting those who are calling out the racists are making things worse.

We have become a country where it is acceptable to blame the victim. It is disgusting.

Yellowdog's avatar

What a rant.

The tweets were toward very specific anti-American statements made by very specific members of congress. It was not directed to anyone because of their ‘color’. It was directed at their statements.

If you or your family came from a very violent part of the world, and are accepted as a refugee into this country, and are elected to a position of power because people of this country want you to succeed and become accomplished, you have no right to endlessly condemn America and its values and traditions that got you where you are. If you hate America and its culture, go back to the violence and war-torn poverty you came from and quit condemning the nation that gave you success, education and leadership.

If you do not know what these tweets were in response to, and if you have been told it was race or color, your sources are disingenuous.

Response moderated (Spam)
ragingloli's avatar

@Yellowdog
Congratulations on beating seawolf to be the first racist apologist in this thread.
Just like your infallible Führer, you did not bother to even look up the targets of Drumpf’s racist tweet. Then you would have seen that 3 of the 4 were born in your country.

johnpowell's avatar

Good thing Trump never criticized the country.

flutherother's avatar

@Yellowdog You are wrong. Trump’s remarks weren’t directed at “statements” they were directed at Congresswomen and they have every right to criticize America as they see fit. In fact as Congresswomen that is their job. But what troubles me more than your remarks is the silence of leading republicans who seem afraid to defend the basic American value of free speech.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog I understand your feelings because I love this country, warts and all. I still think it was a bad political move and gave the Dems another sound byte to use for 2020. While it may rally his base, it’s also alienates those of us who stand by the electoral process and the choices of the people. Even Pelosi understands that.

It’s not the time to start spewing vitriol from our side, unless you want to give 2020 to the Dems. The people elected those representatives, and above all, we must respect the people’s right to choose representation.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Notice how he singled out women of color. The boy has got some serious mommy issues!

Demosthenes's avatar

@johnpowell

Conservative criticizes the country = patriot trying to make the country great again

Liberal criticizes the country = communist who should go back to where they came from

A double standard indeed. And absurd and childish to assume that criticism of America means you “hate” it. Gee, I wonder if politicians have ideas about how to improve the country…

tinyfaery's avatar

Nothing more anti-American than constantly saying Make America Great “Again”. Seems to me, MAGAs are the ones who need to go back where they came from. Love it or leave it, right?

Dutchess_lll's avatar

MAGAs want to go back to when white men ruled the world and they were free to abuse women and children because a man’s home is HIS castle.

ucme's avatar

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.
We have always been Great Britain

JLeslie's avatar

@Yellowdog What were the women saying about America that caused Trump’s reaction?

hmmmmmm's avatar

Here’s more complete fascist horseshit from Kellyanne Conway: link.

ragingloli's avatar

when you can not answer a question honestly, whip out the rehearsed nationalist propaganda speech

“sick and tired of the military being denigrated”, she says, defending a draft dodger that insulted McCain for being captured.

JLeslie's avatar

Every one is full of shit at this point.

The President NEVER should have said what he said. Spinning it to make it sound like he meant go back to MI or MN is plain stupid. I saw the President saying something like he doesn’t appreciate people from other countries criticizing our American way. Ok, so I completely understand being annoyed when an immigrant complains about America, talks about how great it is or better it is in their former country, and it’s really easy to feel like saying to them, “so why are you here?” I have a relative who talks negatively about America like this and we all get annoyed. In stark contrast are most immigrants I know who talk about being grateful to be in America, and talk about what they love about America. When they do criticize something happening here, it’s being part of the country, participating, not daydreaming about the country left behind as being better.

I have a really hard time believing these women were saying the Somalia, or whatever country their families are from, are better countries, were they?

No matter what, I might have been annoyed with my relative once or twice with things she said, but that does not change that if I were president I would NEVER say something like that. Trump is too impulsive, hateful, and he loves to stir up controversy and hate. It’s so bad for the country.

@ragingloli I was thinking the same thing. I’m so tired of that song. My dad was part of the uniformed services most of his career, but that whole schtick as a way to mesmerize the followers when it’s just completely pulled from nowhere makes my eyes roll.

mazingerz88's avatar

trump’s having the time of his life “trolling” an entire nation with his turd tweets. He’s the ultimate political douche of the century.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

If he would just shut the hell up the democrats we’re in the middle of little cat fights. He just broke that up a bit. I don’t actually think Trump means to be racist, he is just an idiot. When the opposition is eating their own you don’t break it up, you sit back and watch. You especially don’t break it up by making a fool of yourself.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me Exactly. He’s trying to play big tough Papa Patriot for his base, which I understand, but ya, he has got to start running his words through a filter first.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

He won’t though. His brain is too good and also genius.

seawulf575's avatar

I don’t think it was racist, but it was idiotic. Most of the “squad” were born in the USA. Even if they weren’t, the statement wasn’t about their skin color. It was about the corruption and crime and living conditions in the countries he believed they came from. So it wasn’t racist. If you flee a crime-ridden, corrupt country and come here, blasting off about how horrible it is here makes you look foolish. To say it was racist is just plain idiotic as well. But when you miss the part that they were born in the USA, you definitely put your foot in your mouth.

rebbel's avatar

Just a coincidence the four of them had a slightly darker skin tone.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Just a coincidence. Also just a coincidence they were all women.
He is so damn ignorant.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

All are Democrats TOO !

Dutchess_lll's avatar

God. Is it 2020 yet???

JLeslie's avatar

It doesn’t matter if someone is born here or emigrated here, if they are citizens they are citizens. For the most part the people who come to our country understand the freedom, safety, and opportunity more than those who have been here for generations. Christians can compare to baptism. Some Do the baptism at birth, but then others are born again, and have a knowledge of accepting Christ as their savior and they make the choice. Immigrants make the choice. They struggle for the choice. Struggle getting here, struggle with paperwork, some struggle with the fact they are leaving some family behind, leaving belongings behind, leaving the land that they knew as theirs. We are children of people who took this brave step!

Have you ever been to a swearing in when people take the oath to be Americans? It’s incredible. I was lucky to go to a large ceremony for my husband’s citizenship. Tears did come to my eyes, and same with him. 3000 people became citizens that day with him.

Trump was rude, impulsive, and once again acted in an unbecoming was for the office of the president.

Sorry for the rant but Trump has got to stop egging on the haters in this country and giving them permission.

Stache's avatar

For the few who are saying it wasn’t racist. People of color in the U.S. have a history of being told to go back where they came from by racist people. It is a racist thing to say. If they say it is racist then it is. You don’t get to tell them otherwise.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Stache I’m sure your decree changed their minds. (Sarcasm)

Many Reps are glad he said it and like him even more. So dont get too carried away in your glee yet.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@KNOWITALL

SO YOU APPROVE OF RACIST STATEMENTS BY THE THE PRESIDENT ? ?

Yes I’m yelling !

Your Southern is showing.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Again, the fight over whether or not the fool’s tweet is racist is an aside compared to what should be uppermost in this discussion. And that is the question of the President’s basic judgement. The kindest assumption on that issue is that the fool suffers some variation of compulsive Tourette’s syndrome, though to even mention such a thing is probably extremely offensive to those diagnosed with the condition. NOBODY (including his supporters) wants to be identified with whatever it is afflicting our commander in chief. To my mind, it’s a waste of time labeling Trump a racist. The question should be about the mental acuity of someone either unwilling or unable to conceal their racism. Realistically, it is no longer possible to dismiss this fool as merely tactless.

Yellowdog's avatar

Uh, I do not believe any of you have been living under a rock and have been this ignorant of what “The Squad” have been saying against America Israel, law enforcement, ICE agents, for the past four months, while glorifying Antifa and middle eastern terror groups.

Elizabeth Warren, although not part of “The Squad” has promised to imprison border patrol and ICE agents when elected, but let criminals who have crossed the border and committed crimes in this country go free.

No one in America has to defect to another country. We have no walls or terror groups keeping people in (yet). Anyone can leave if they have any problem with this nation and its founding. Meanwhile, a measurable fraction of the world’s population want in.

Ilhan Omar was given every advantage and privilege this country has to offer. Yet she continually slanders and bashes this country and glorifies Somalia—the people who rescued her are the bad guys. Good people in her district wanted her to succeed and gave her a position of prestige. If she doesn’t like it, why is she here?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical_Willie No, I don’t approve of anyone’s racist statements.

I’d urge you to actually read what Omar has said. I posted on the other thread this morning for everyone to read.

And you can all caps yell any time, it doesn’t impress me or bother me in the slightest.

@Yellowdog After reading Omar’s statements, I feel less inclined to condemn Trump. I get it now, although I still think it was a bad call on his part.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Please note: (MORE: House to vote to condemn anti-Semitism in indirect rebuke) So who’s being racist again?

WHAT OMAR SAID: In January, Omar was criticized for a (deleted) 2012 tweet where she said Israel “has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel,” after the 2012 conflict with Hamas in Gaza. She defended the comments, saying she was criticizing the military action by Israel.

A few weeks later, Omar was at a progressive event in Washington where she said pro-Israel activists pushed “allegiance to a foreign country,” in an effort to clarify her initial comments.

“I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country,” Omar said, immediately prompting criticism that she was evoking stereotypes about “dual loyalty,” a trope seen as anti-Semitic but also associated historically with other immigrant groups.

(MORE: House to vote to condemn anti-Semitism in indirect rebuke)
In March, the House passed a resolution condemning anti-Semitism, racism and bigotry in response to Omar’s comments, though some Democrats were angry that it didn’t mention the congresswoman by name.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-trump-falsely-claims-rep-omar-praised-al/story?id=64349788

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL Criticizing the actions of the State of Israel IS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC. Israel is doing many things that are in direct violation of international law. Calling them out for that is not the same thing as hating jews.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Obviously the House disagrees with you.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Well if people would just leave imaginary beings out of politics what a wonderful world this could be.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws I was wrong, the House backed down, or expanded it, whichever way you choose to spin it. Surprise, surprise.

The Senate unanimously passed a resolution on Thursday explicitly and unequivocally condemning anti-Semitism, after the Democrat-controlled House abandoned a similar effort in March in favor of a resolution broadly disapproving of all forms of bigotry.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Obviously the House disagrees with you.”

Fuck the house.

“In 2006, 60% of the Democratic Party’s fundraising from private sources (and 25% of the Republican Party’s fundraising) came from pro-Israel PACs, according to a Washington Post estimate, Democratic presidential candidates depend on pro-Israel sources for as much as 60% of money raised from private sources.” as cited in this wikipedia article.

This is exactly what Omar was criticizing. There is a lot of money behind the state of Israel. It’s not anti-semitic to call this out. It’s a straight-up fact. If it was Russia buying off politicians to the same degree, the pro-estabishment media would have a meltdown. And I’m not saying there’s a vast conspiracy with powerful Jews trying to control the world. I’m saying there is a lot of money involved in selling weapons to Israel. That many of these perpetual conflicts in the Middle East are very good for business if you manufacture bombs, drones, guidance chips, etc.

Demosthenes's avatar

True. No one would have a problem criticizing China or Russia if they were the ones whose contributions were being questioned. It’s true that sometimes these criticisms have echoes of the “Jewish cabal” conspiracy, but that doesn’t invalidate the criticisms. Criticizing Israel shouldn’t be as dicey as it is.

JLeslie's avatar

Sorry, but Omar using the term “Benjamin’s” should be criticized and called antisemitic just like Trump telling congresswomen to go back to their country should be called racist.

Why not just say Omar was flat out wrong, and that she, and anyone, can criticize Israel’s actions, and that does not make her antisemitic or anti-Israel, but it does make her motives more suspect to people who have a strong, almost blind, allegiance to Israel and the Jewish people. It certainly questions her maturity, just like I question Trump on his impulsiveness. Neither are models for our children using slang language about a group when they hold a public office.

Omar screwed up royally, you can’t spin it. If Trump has said “Bin Ladens” the Democrats would go crazy. Think about it.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “Sorry, but Omar using the term Benjamin should be criticized and called antisemitic just like Trump telling congresswomen to go back to their country should be called racist.”

What is the exact quote you’re criticizing?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Although I don’t appreciate your language to me, that is very well-known to most Americans.

https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/toppacs.php

One of, if not the most, powerful international issue lobby is that of the pro-Israel crowd. Well-financed and politically powerful, the pro-Israel lobby is a major force on American foreign affairs that looks to continue America’s military and fiscal support of the Jewish nation-state. The lobby has had recent policy success with the Trump administration moving the U.S. embassy in Israel from the internationally-recognized capital of Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a move long advocated by some in the pro-Israel lobby. Notably however, JStreet, one of the larger pro-Israel groups opposed the move. The administration is very friendly with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and has taken a hard line on Israel peace talks, barely talking to the Palestinians and ending all foreign aid to the West Bank and Gaza.

Even with the policy victories coming under a Republican president, the lobby still remained staunch Democratic contributors, giving more than $14.8 million in the 2018 midterms to mostly Democrats. This marked their third-biggest cycle ever and their biggest non-presidential cycle. [Read more Background]

@JLeslie I agree with you on both counts.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws I believe @JLeslie is referring to this:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hit back Tuesday against comments from Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., suggesting that the reason Israel is solidly supported by the U.S. government is because of money.

“From this Benjamin, it’s not about the Benjamins!” Netanyahu told the AIPAC conference in Washington, speaking by satellite hookup from Israel.

“The reason Americans love Israel,” he added, “is not because they want our money, it’s because they share our values. It’s because America and Israel share a love of freedom and democracy.”

Netanyahu’s remarks were in response to a February tweet by Omar, who is Muslim, that American support for Israel was “all about the Benjamins baby.” Weeks later, she said pro-Israel activists pushed for “allegiance to a foreign country.”

Both comments triggered accusations from some lawmakers and prominent Jewish groups of anti-Semitism and playing on toxic anti-Jewish stereotypes.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/responding-rep-omar-netanyahu-says-benjamin-it-s-not-about-n987411

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “I don’t appreciate your language to me” I didn’t say “fuck you,” I said, “fuck the house.”

Thanks for the context on the “Benjamin” comment. I still don’t understand how this is antisemitic? If there was an equivalent lobby coming in from pro-Chinese groups, and she called it out in the same way, would that make her a Sinophobe?

Dutchess_lll's avatar

What does “Benjamin” mean?

gorillapaws's avatar

@Dutchess_lll “What does “Benjamin” mean?”

It’s a reference to this song. The $100 dollar bill has Benjamin Franklin on it. Netanyahu’s first name is coincidentally Benjamin as well. I suspect this is where the concern about antisemitism is coming from?

KNOWITALL's avatar

I’ll let @JLeslie clue you in on that.

The good news is Omar did clarify and apologize. And apparently learned something.

“Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes. My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole,” she said in a statement on Feb. 11.

“That is why I unequivocally apologize,” she said, although she added that she was not apologizing for “the problematic role of lobbyists in our politics, whether it be AIPAC, the NRA, or the fossil fuel industry.”

When asked about Omar’s remarks at Wednesday’s town hall, spokesman Jeremy Slevin referred to Omar’s previous apology and told the Associated Press that “we must distinguish between criticism of a particular faith and fair critiques of lobbying groups.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/03/ilhan-omar-accused-anti-semitic-remark-israel-criticism/3048379002/

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws If she says it’s all about the Chincks baby it might be the same. Are you really okay with her calling Jews (or if she wants to try to say it’s anyone who supports Netanyahu) Benjamin’s? WTH? We shouldn’t be calling any group a slang term in my opinion. Especially, our leaders should t be doing it.

Omar might have had some valid points, but that Benjamin’s baby BS just turned me right off. I don’t care much what she says after that. The same way Trump turns me off. In fact I think the congresswomen from MN and MA should distance themselves from the other two. Trump is lumping the four together, the media is dedos on it, it’s understandable they all want to show a united front against what Trump said, but these 4 women are not all the same politically, and they should not get too sucked in I think.

Edit: if you want to believe it’s about money, then go ahead, but I don’t buy it. Even if it is, I constantly tell my husband in interviews don’t use sarcasm, slang, or sayings. Politics is an ongoing interview. English is his second language, America is his adopted country and culture, he is not good at gauging what the reactions will be. Even when you are American born and raised its better to stead clear you never know what your audiences reaction will be when you do those things. Some might get it, some might not.

hmmmmmm's avatar

Oh for fuck’s sake.

Stop with the anti-semitism claim. When everyone went on the attack against her, she ended up getting death threats.
There was/is nothing anti-semitic about her statements, period. And the reaction to her statements was confirmation of her point.

Israel is a brutal, bigoted apartheid state that operates open-air prisons as it continues to destroy and colonize Palestinian land. It does so despite global opposition because it has the weight (and financial/military support) of the US behind it.

Just stop.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Have you heard the song that she was referencing?

I’m still very confused. Is Benjamin a racial slur against Jews?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm Oh well poor Omar, maybe she should shut her mouth until she can figure out the difference between a religious slur and how to call out huge Democratic PAC’s.

You are rude cussing @JLeslie as a Jewish person who feels offense at Omar’s comments.

Anyone who is familiar with racial stereotypes knows exactly what Omar meant, so read a book to educate yourself. You aren’t smarter than Bibi, I assure you.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws That’s how I took it, even though I’ve never heard it before. That’s how it sounded to me.

This was her apology “Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes. My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole,” she said in a statement on Feb. 11.”

JLeslie's avatar

@hmmmmmm I didn’t say one thing about her right to criticize Israel’s behavior.

I think as a Jew I’m allowed to take issue with her use of the word Benjamin’s, and I also can call bullshit in some sort of twist about Ben Franklin. When they spin what Trump says I don’t listen to the spinners, I decide for myself.

So, you’re ok with 4 minority women being hurt by what Trump says but not ok with with me being hurt by what Omar said? I want to be sure I understand.

And, let’s be clear, none of us probably actually feel very “hurt” because we are Americans, we are adults, we know it’s shitty what the other person did.

If Omar wants a serious conversation about the US support for Israel and what Israel has been doing then she needs to learn to keep a serious tone. She needs to be aware of how she might come across and be more careful.

Demosthenes's avatar

@JLeslie “If Omar wants a serious conversation about the US support for Israel and what Israel has been doing then she needs to learn to keep a serious tone.”

Agreed on that at least. Just like with Trump, you may agree, but the choice of words can defeat the point.

(And ironic considering both Trump and Omar are known for their “bluntness” but people criticize one for it and praise the other).

hmmmmmm's avatar

@JLeslie – You have the right to feel “hurt”. This doesn’t mean that you are right to feel this way.

The only people who took offense were the right. Left wing Jewish organizations and left-wing Jews of course supported what she said (from Norman Finklestein to ifnotnowmovement.org to jewishvoiceforpeace.org).

Weaponizing the concept of anti-semitism for political purposes is immoral and dangerous. Anti-semitism is a real thing. To discredit it by using it to deflect criticism of Israel is really disgusting.

Note: I am curious about your comments above re: 2 of the squad should separate from the others or something. Can you elaborate?

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “I also can call bullshit in some sort of twist about Ben Franklin.”

I think the problem is your lack of cultural awareness regarding hip-hop lyrics (and possibly popular urban culture in general). The phrase “all about the Benjamins, baby” is a common phrase that’s been used for decades. I am certain that’s how the tweet was intended, it’s immediately how I interpreted it when I first read it. The “spin” is the antisemitic angle. The fact that Omar retracted isn’t a validation of her opponent’s criticisms.

hmmmmmm's avatar

Wait – I missed this. @JLeslie – are you saying that you aren’t aware of that song? It’s part of a whole culture. As soon as she said it, the song plays in your mind. How, how are you not aware of this? I can’t count how many times I have said/sang that line.

It’s also been a term for a hundred dollar bill for a really long time.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I didn’t have a clue either. I never listen to hip hop.

JLeslie's avatar

@Demosthenes I try to always hear statements from politicians as if it is coming from my own political party. Try to be equally forgiving and unforgiving about mistakes and off the cuff remarks.

@gorillapaws I didn’t hear any spin, I most likely heard her remarks on MSNBC, because that’s where I get most of my political news, and my immediate reaction was negative from my own perspective. If she was using hip hop that wasn’t smart. I’ll just leave it at that. Like I said, don’t use slang, don’t use sarcasm, don’t try to be cute. Not a good idea.

@hmmmmmm Again, I don’t care. She fucked it up by using some subculture slang then. Like Oprah says to the people who choose to speak in a dialect when not appropriate, English is your friend. She means speak standard English when communicating with people who don’t necessarily speak your own dialect.

That the Jewish politicians on the left want to stay silent or show support for her doesn’t mean much to me either. There are some republicans who don’t like what Trump does and they stay silent or even show support for him. Money, power, peer pressure, it’s all present in our politics.

And, I said I’m not really “hurt” I just think she was stupid. Just like I think Trump does a lot of stupid things.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “If she was using hip hop that wasn’t smart.”

“It’s all about the benjamins, baby” is about as common as “show me the money.” It’s ubiquitous. If you went in a time machine to a day before this incident and asked random people on the street (who aren’t in a retirement community) what “It’s all about the benjamins, baby” means they would tell you it’s about getting paid, like 99% of them under the age of 60.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@JLeslie: “Again, I don’t care. She fucked it up by using some subculture slang then.”

“Subculture”? It was a Billboard chart-topping song in 1997 that is a pop culture reference. What exactly are you saying – subculture? Your insinuation is that this is some kind of ebonics shit. Wow. It’s English. It’s a whole culture (the US) thing. She is a citizen of the US. What the fuck? “Dialect”? I urge you to rethink this. Seriously.

@JLeslie: “And, I said I’m not really “hurt” I just think she was stupid.”

You’re the one who is ignorant here, as you’ve admitted. Stop.

JLeslie's avatar

@hmmmmmm You make my point.

hmmmmmm's avatar

You know, you can just say that you are opposed to criticisms of Israel or US support of Israel. It’s alot more honest than feigning offense and risking the lives of Muslims, while silencing voices for human rights.

JLeslie's avatar

@hmmmmmm I criticize Israel myself sometimes. Give me a fucking break. You haven’t been here long enough.

As far as some hip hop song, from my experience most people under 30 listen to hip hop. I don’t very much, but I’m 51.

I said I give the same advice to my own husband who is Hispanic.

Benjamin rings of a very Jewish name in my ears. Jews have been stereotyped about money since the beginning of time. None of it sits well with me.

Moreover, the Evangelical Christian community is probably the largest group in America that follows the right wing Israelis blindly, not the Jewish community, except for a small percentage of Jews who are generally very religious and Republicans.

Omar can criticize Israeli and American policy all she wants, but if she wants to be effective she needs to stay professional.

Moreover, I defend Muslims all the time, now you are offensive.

rebbel's avatar

To me, Benjamin means the youngest sibling of a nuclear family.
So I guess it’s in the ear (head) of the beholder.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@JLeslie – I’ve been here since 2011, and I’m not talking about your past. Rather, I’m talking about your comments in this thread.

@JLeslie: “As far as some hip hop song, from my experience most people under 30 listen to hip hop. I don’t very much, but I’m 51.”

I’m not that much younger than you (47). The term “benjamin” is in Merriam-Webster dictionary (as “US Slang” for “A hundred dollar bill”). I know this may also come as a surprise, but Benjamin Franklin is on that bill.

But you admittedly somehow missed this use. That’s fine – but very surprising. Now that you know, however, you seem to be doubling down and claiming it was some “subculture” thing.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Just to illustrate how ubiquitous the phrase is in popular culture, here’s a headline from the State Street Global Advisors It’s All About the Benjamins: Don’t Overlook Swings in the Dollar from July, 2018 (well after the song came out and before all of this manufactured drama). It was written by a very white, middle-aged Chief Investment Strategist of the US SPDR Business, named Michael Arone, CFA.

Stache's avatar

I thought this question was about our racist president. Nice deflection from the right here. Trump has more power than Omar and Omar has apologized. Trump is tripling down with his racist comments.

https://god.dailydot.com/people-share-go-back-to-your-country-stories/?utm_content=bufferbdf17&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=wokesloth&utm_campaign=bloomjoy

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws Why did Omar apologize?

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Because it’s clearly too difficult to explain why what she said was ok to people like yourself.

She didn’t say anything wrong or antisemitic. The press (who have an agenda to suppress progressives) has spun this into a fake controversy. It’s harder to defend what she said than to give a non-apology to those who misunderstood what she said.

hmmmmmm's avatar

Here are a couple of random articles I found that uses this phrase (note: there are thousands of hits):

- link

- link

- link

- link

- link

- link

- link

- link

There is no way you haven’t read this phrase hundreds of times. I wonder what you thought it meant?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie And personally apologized to Jan Schakowsky.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/03/07/dem_rep_jan_schakowsky_ilhan_omar_apologized_to_me_personally_as_a_jew_she_comes_from_a_different_culture.html

Ms. Omar’s Twitter comment linking money from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or Aipac, to political support in Washington for Israel played into anti-Semitic tropes that have their roots in the Middle Ages, when Jews were barred from entering most professions and thus became moneylenders — a task that Christians would not take on because of prohibitions against usury.

That fueled centuries of stereotypes about Jews using money to control the world. Rabbi Jonah Pesner, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, drew an analogy between Ms. Omar’s comments and those who make light of blackface without understanding the hateful history of minstrel shows and how they were used to dehumanize African-Americans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/11/us/politics/ilhan-omar-anti-semitism.html

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws So, even if I accept your explanation with the links you have provided, which I appreciate, do you agree my point still holds? The use of slang is a mistake.

She coupled slang that sounds Jewish with her criticism of Israel. I 100% agree with you that criticizing Israel is not the same as being antisemitic, although antisemitic people do think of Israel and Jews as being synonymous. Then the explanation winds up being slang about money? The very thing Jews are stereotyped about constantly? I mean it’s a clusterfuck.

Demosthenes's avatar

@Stache Yes, there is a marked difference between the two. A congressman on NPR was saying today that he thinks the idea that the president should be held to a higher standard is bogus, but I don’t agree. More should be expected of the president. And yes, I think Omar did the right thing to apologize instead of doubling down and blaming other people for being offended. When Trump does that, he’s rightly called out.

JLeslie's avatar

@hmmmmmm You can stop now. There is a vast difference between you and @gorillapaws.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie In my opinion this is a manufactured controversy with the intent of creating a chilling effect on the speech of anyone trying to criticize Israeli policy, and the US politicians who take money from pro-Israel lobbyists (which is most of them). It’s meant to limit what is acceptable discussion. We may go to war with Iran. Netanyahu would love that. War with Iran could destroy this country economically, destroy millions of lives. It is vital that we can have this conversation about Israel’s influence on American politicians, much of which just so happens to be financial.

JLeslie's avatar

One more thing, I didn’t call Omar antisemitic, I said I felt what she said was antisemitic. I used to use the term gyp until a gypsy jelly told me that was a slur against gypsies. I had never realized it until then. I don’t harbor any hatred or bad feeling against gypsies. It was just a word in my vocabulary.

@gorillapaws All I can say is when I heard the quote, my immediate reaction was it sounded like an antisemitic slur. If it wasn’t meant that way that’s fine, I’m telling you my immediate reaction having grown up in a liberal Jewish household. I wasn’t listening to commentary at first, and I don’t watch right wing media, except for the very blue moon.

The only Benjamins I personally know are Jewish, she was talking about Israel, Jewish names thousands of years ago were Abraham Ben Isaac. Meaning Abraham son of Isaac. It just “sounds” Jewish without knowing anything about the supposedly popular use of Benjamins to mean money.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@JLeslie I guess we know what Benjamin means now.

KNOWITALL's avatar

For the record, many of us know the slang version, and I completely disagree that the reference was not intended to be a slur.

Using a song with lyrics including the N-word, as any type of excuse is ignorant, too. I almost posted here but they are disgusting.

Here’s a lyric from that song: You should do what we do, stack chips like Hebrews

https://genius.com/Diddy-its-all-about-the-benjamins-remix-lyrics

Dutchess_lll's avatar

It rhymes, anyway.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Using a song with lyrics including the N-word, as any type of excuse is ignorant, too”

“All about the Benjamins” is a pop culture phrase at this point. It’s beyond the song itself. It’s like “show me the money” from Jerry McGuire.

“YOLO” (i.e. you only live once) comes from a song by Drake called “The Motto.” This song happens to use racial slurs. I don’t think people using “YOLO” are bigots despite the song of it’s origin including the word “nigga.” When people say “YOLO” there not referring to Drake or his lyrics or anything that’s potentially ratially insensitive, they’re saying “You only live once.” It’s actually totally ridiculous to make the argument that Omar was referencing some obscure antisemitic lyric buried somewhere in the song. Would you apply that same logic to the links that @hmmmmmm listed?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws One last time, all about the benjamins means it’s all about the money/ dollar bills, etc…. So yes, in reference to Jews, as I posted the historical context above, does seem like a racial slur to me.

I’m 46 dude, not 80, I know what’s up, don’t be condescending. I probably know more acronyms than you do. :)

The only reason I posted that lyric, which is an obvious racial slur, is because @hmmmmmm was acting as if all about the benjamins was in reference to that particular song, like everyone should chill out. We all know it’s a common reference to money/ dollar bills, as you say, that go far beyond that specific song.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@KNOWITALL: “The only reason I posted that lyric, which is an obvious racial slur, is because @hmmmmmm was acting as if all about the benjamins was in reference to that particular song, like everyone should chill out.”

Interesting interpretation, since I repeated over and over how it’s in the dictionary and now a cultural thing. The only reason you posted that lyric, which everyone is well aware of since the whole thing went down, was to make a claim that it wasn’t a cultural saying.

And you included in your comment that “For the record, many of us know the slang version, and I completely disagree that the reference was not intended to be a slur.”

So, what is it? Part of the common language that was inspired by the chorus of a pop song in 1997 or an intentional anti-Semitic slur? If it’s the latter, I’d be curious to hear your reasoning. In order for that to be true, you must believe that a) she’s anti-Semitic, and b) she had a specific audience in mind. Who is that audience, and why do you feel that she is anti-Semitic?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm I still can’t decide to take you seriously, or if you’re a joke. When I decide, I’ll let you know.

JLeslie's avatar

Omar said her apology, now we can wait and see what her ideas are. I’m not going to hold it against her forever or make assumptions about her based on this one thing. I do not assume she is antisemitic, I do think her comment is either a dog whistle or ignorance for how it would sound to a lot of Jewish people.

Donny Deutsch just said on TV in a discussion on MSNBC that he has disagreed with things Omar has said (I’m assuming he was referring to the same thing we are talking about here). No one here is going to call him aligned with the right wing or unaware are they? They were discussing Trump being horrible for saying people of color don’t deserve to be citizens in America, which honestly they really take this too far, because Trump didn’t actually say that or imply that to such an extreme.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@KNOWITALL: ”@hmmmmmm I still can’t decide to take you seriously, or if you’re a joke. When I decide, I’ll let you know.”

Fair enough.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm Fine, we’ll try again.

I posted that lyric simply to show that that song’s lyrics are offensive to a few races.

So I would say “All about the benjamins” is a song as well as a pop culture phrase (although pretty old and unused currently in my world).

I don’t know Omar, just as you don’t know me, so I am not positive of what she intended but since then she has got schooled and apologized. I do believe she is anti-Semitic as it’s well-known that many Muslims are. It’s in their religious texts as well. (I have a Quran by the way.)

Honestly, she only started working for someone’s campaign six years ago, so her lack of experience is probably to blame, and she likely misspoke like almost every other person in politics has, at some point.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@KNOWITALL: ” I do believe she is anti-Semitic as it’s well-known that many Muslims are. It’s in their religious texts as well. (I have a Quran by the way.)”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm Are you just re-posting my own post to me?

Come on you said you were 47 yrs old, you can do better than that.

hmmmmmm's avatar

@KNOWITALL: “Come on you said you were 47 yrs old, you can do better than that.”

No, I really can’t.

There isn’t anything else I can add. I’m not very clever.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm And not American either are you?

hmmmmmm's avatar

@KNOWITALL: ”@hmmmmmm And not American either are you?”

Does Massachusetts count?

stanleybmanly's avatar

It is rather peculiar that once again America is the single nation in the world where opposition to Israeli policies can be passed off CONSISTENTLY as antisemetic. That the 2 can be so readily conflated is once again solid evidence on the appalling ignorance of our people regarding the world and its doings. It is our failure in civic education which allows such striking failures from the rise of the fool through our stupid wars, and the ridiculous spectacle of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog in the out in the open outright theft of Palestine and its environs.

JLeslie's avatar

@stanleybmanly I agree that a lot of Americans conflate Israel and being Jewish, I point this out to people all of the time.

Just recently a friend said to me he doesn’t understand why Jewish people would be upset about Trump declaring Jerusalem the capital, and other things Israel is doing and has done, and my response was because American Jews are Americans not Israelis (unless they happen to also be Israeli) and not even all Israelis agree with the actions going on in Israel and the occupied territories for many years.

There are political disagreements within the country. I told him we had German Americans fight on the side of the Americans against the Nazis. Being Jewish doesn’t mean automatic agreement with everything the state of Israel does. His question was a case of projecting for me. He is the type of person himself who is practically nationalistic in his loyalty to the Republican Party, it’s leaders, and the USA. He doesn’t look at all sides of an issue, and he expects others to behave the same.

Having said that, don’t kid yourself, many of the people in countries who adamantly protest almost everything Israel does, many people in those countries are antisemitic, they aren’t just simply upset about Israel. America is guilty of the same. Some of our most vocal Israel loyal Americans, who will follow blindly, are anti-Muslim, have prejudices against Muslims, and it’s terrible. Most of the people I work with are Muslim from all over the Middle East and Africa. I’ve always had Muslim acquaintances, work colleagues, and friends, it’s just horrible that in America people can be so hateful, and so presumptuous against any group.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmm Sure, if you were born there.

May I ask why you hate Isreal so much? Yes, I am pro-Isreal, but that doesnt mean I approve of everything they do, just like I’m always pro-America regardlessof whos in DC.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmm K. So you seem busy, bye.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Massachusetts, unless I misunderstood what he wrote.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Oh. Well. He’s not a Murkin at all in that case.

hmmmmmm's avatar

Sorry – I didn’t notice your edit with details. Just finishing up dinner..

@KNOWITALL: “May I ask why you hate Isreal so much? Yes, I am pro-Isreal, but that doesnt mean I approve of everything they do, just like I’m always pro-America regardlessof whos in DC.”

It’s a big topic, but I can summarize it by saying that I support human rights, and Israel is violating human rights in the most brutal and public way. People are in literal open-air prisons or concentration camps with no way to get out, no clean water (up to 97% dirty water), no access to the medicine and supplies they need, and no hope for any future. They’re stuck in a country that has continually taken more and more of their land until they are in isolated pockets. It’s a systematic destruction of a people.

There is perpetual global condemnation, but the US will always veto resolutions. And when they protest their death and suffering, they are gunned down by the dozens on television, and nobody cares. And this is all happening because we provide them with money, weapons, and political power. Our taxes – yours and mine – are paying for the death and destruction of the Palestinian people. It is our moral responsibility to oppose this, and to (whatever degree is possible) try to stop it.

Regarding your pro-America comment, it would likely be a derail for me to expand too far on this. But again, since I at least have a minimal effect on the actions of my government (and I pay for its actions), I am ethically responsible for what it does. And the fact is, the US is a violent, terrorist, anti-Democratic imperialist force in the world (both historically and currently). To be quiet about this is to be complicit in the most despicable crimes.

Hope that helps. Thanks.

JLeslie's avatar

I feel compelled to post a link from Nas Daily I don’t think you will need to log into Facebook to watch the videos. There are 7 or 8. If you don’t know Nas he is a Palestinian Israeli. He likes to show the positive, but also talks about some negatives. I follow him on Facebook. His videos are typically just one minute in length each. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=795070190645135&id=574719552680201&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

Yellowdog's avatar

I find it hard to believe that even you, @hmmmmmm believes what you stated.

Israel is a westerm style democracy surrounded by totalitarian regimes whose constitution and pledge is to annihilate them.

It bears no resemblance whatsoever to what you describe. It is extremely easy to visit Israel and see for yourself what kind of a country it is,

Stache's avatar

I just listened to some of Trump’s clan rally where the crowd is chanting “send her back.” I can’t believe what I’m witnessing.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Dear God. People suck.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog @hmmm Perhaps you could each post a non-biased source? Obviously I can research myself but both of you cant be right. Up to you.

@hmmm Obviously your pov disturbs me greatly.

hmmmmmm's avatar

^ We have a literal white nationalist in the white house inciting violence against minorities and a sitting congresswomen. I can’t calmly discuss this with @Yellowdog, because he’s disgusting. He’s right. All of what I said is wrong. I just can’t.

Stache's avatar

How easily some forget that our president called people chanting “Jews will not replace us” very fine people.

Yellowdog's avatar

@Stache Not at all what was said at Charlottesville. The remark was well framed as to not be misunderstood, He said there were fine people on both sides—the protestors and the advocates of the removal of a statue of Robert E Lee.

@Stache When I was a grad student at the University of Memphis, I knew a Japanese girl who militantly denied that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. She believed that was a lie that Americans made up to justify the bombs dropped on Hiroshima. She thought Hitler was worse than America, but America was next in line. When I told her that Japan had an alliance with Hitler and bombed Pearl Harbor to keep us out of the war effort in Europe, I was reprimanded.

Gradually, the reality dawned on her what the rest of the world knew and was actually well documented.

Israel is a western-style democracy and does not at all resemble what Islamic schoolchildren are taught in terrorist and pirate countries. and drag their beliefs into American universities—which they, too, should have to deal with.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmm Ok. I am disappointed though because part of this site, the unspoken rule, is to back up your opinions with factual sources.

The disgust is mutual, I’m sure.

@Yellowdog I’ll research it myself.

flutherother's avatar

@Yellowdog Just because a country is considered to be a “western style democracy” doesn’t put it above criticism. The whole idea of democracy is that excesses of government can be examined and challenged.

hmmmmmm's avatar

I contributed to Ilhan Omar’s reelection campaign last night.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hmmmmmm & @Yellowdog Interesting fidings indeed, see below. Honestly, with some of these states and support for both (joining UNESCO), it appears the world is fairly split on this issue/support. 14 countries Isreal, 11 Palestine, 11 abstains.

The EU has also been highly critical of Israeli military actions in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon, often referring to them as “disproportionate” and “excessive force” and calling for an immediate cease-fire. During Operation Defensive Shield in 2002, the European Parliament passed a non-binding resolution calling for economic sanctions on Israel and an arms embargo on both parties. Following the Gaza War, the European Parliament endorsed the Goldstone Report. The EU has also been critical of Israel’s Gaza blockade, referring to it as “collective punishment.”-Wiki

https://ips-dc.org/why_the_us_supports_israel/
^Seemingly agrees with @hmmmmmm

I’ll continue when I have more time, I’m interested in the truth.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

No member of the KKK could be considered a “fine person.”

Yellowdog's avatar

@hmmmmmm You might as well have given your money to the re-election of Nicolás Maduro for Venezuela. Her chances are about the same.

At the very least, I’d think you’d have a certain degree of disdain for Omar, because she has probably cost the Democrats any hope of a 2020 victory, even in her own district.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I think a lot of people agree Israel uses excessive force at times, even many Israelis. Part of the purpose is to get the Palestinians to STOP trying. It’s a message that if you shoot a bullet at Israel, Israel will retaliate and bomb a city flat, so don’t even lift up the gun. Excessive force is used as a deterrent. Even with Israel having this type of response it’s worth noting that Israel often sits on their hands and doesn’t retaliate to every little thing.

Never again

No one or group is going to kill or enslave the Jewish people again like in the past. It was just one two many times with the Holocaust.

I’m not saying I agree with Israeli policy, I’m only saying I understand why they are so militarized.

I do believe the Israelis were open to a peace treaty in the past, and the Palestinians in the end wouldn’t do the deal. Now with Netanyahu, ugh, he’s so right wing, I really think he is harming Israel.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “I do believe the Israelis were open to a peace treaty in the past, and the Palestinians in the end wouldn’t do the deal…”

Don’t forget that Rabin was assassinated by an extremist right-wing Israeli because the assassin didn’t want a peace deal.

ragingloli's avatar

@JLeslie
Say the Palaestinians ceased all measures of resistance, how do you get the Israeli government to stop building settlements in the occupied Palaestinian territories?
“Close your eyes and think of England” is not an option for either side.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Thanks, and I do understand that to a degree.

This is what bothers me:
U.S. support of the Israeli government has repeatedly sabotaged the efforts of peace activists in Israel to change Israeli policy, which the late Israeli General and Knesset member Matti Peled referred to as pushing Israel “toward a posture of calloused intransigence.” Perhaps the best kind of support the United States can give Israel is that of “tough love”–unconditional support for Israel’s right to live in peace and security within its internationally recognized border, but an equally clear determination to end the occupation. This is the challenge for those who take seriously such basic values as freedom, democracy, and the rule of law.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Racism is so insidious. Just saw a picture of trump surrounded by “survivors of religious persecution.” Virtually every one was not an American (duh.)
One of my former classmates commented “For some one who is supposedly racist he’s surround by people of brilliant colors.”

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I haven’t forgotten. Like I said, the extreme right is a problem. I don’t agree with them on most things. But at the time when the treaty seemed like it might happen Israel’s majority I think was on board. Now, I think Israel has moved to the right again, but not wholly. Plenty of Israelis are in favor of a two state solution, have some understanding of the Palestinian position, are against the settlements, etc.

@ragingloli The settlements are a problem. Many many Israelis and Jews don’t agree with the Israelis settling outside of agreed upon borders. There have been times where the Israelis have abandoned some of the settlements and tried for some agreements towards peace, I honestly don’t know the whole history of it.

From what I understand, to the Palestinians it’s never enough, and on the Israeli side they feel like it’s a test. The Israelis will give a little and see how it goes, and then be willing to give more, but then Palestinians done behave as agreed upon and the whole thing goes to shit. I’m not really on a side I’m just saying the way I understand it in a very elementary way. I understand why the Israelis are seen as the bullies in the situation. I’m not defending either side, just stating some of the problem how I understand it regarding the settlements.

I don’t know how to fix it. I don’t believe that if Israel went back to the original borders that the Palestinians will just stop their aggression and become prosperous and happy and good neighbors with Israel so fast, do you? It’s not that I think the Palestinians are “different” as a group, I only mean the groups in power are oppressive. It’s still a very macho culture overall. It would take time for sure. The one Palestinian I knew through work still living in the Palestinian territory left 6 months ago to marry someone in England. I have no idea how she feels about leaving. The people, especially the women, who are more educated I think prefer to be in democracies, which the Arab world doesn’t provide for them. Some do go to Jordan.

I hold out hope for peace I the Middle East. Everyone says I’m foolish.

Yellowdog's avatar

@JLeslie Those territories beyond the 1967 borders were won by International Law because they were being attacked from there. If the Israelis have to go there to fight a battle because someone is nuking their citizens, and they destroy the terrorists or foes attacking them, or the foes abandon their stance and flee. Israel gets the territory.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Yellowdog Wrong. It’s widely agreed that this is occupied territory, not Israel. See this.

“The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law, violating Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 which states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”[a][b][c][d][e] Israel maintains that it is not in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention since, in its view, Israeli citizens were neither deported nor transferred to the territories, and they cannot be considered to have become “occupied territory” since there had been no internationally recognized legal sovereign prior.[f] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[g][h]”

Yellowdog's avatar

Well, maybe if a democrat wins, we can force Israel to give it up with sanctions and military strikes.

ucme's avatar

The “send them back” narrative comes straight out of Mississippi Burning, be afraid America…be afraid!

ragingloli's avatar

Wonder if you will be equally accommodating to China, when they annex Taiwan in the future.

Yellowdog's avatar

Are you suggesting the phrase is copyright protected?

hmmmmmm's avatar

Trump can have Ayanna Presley. Her vote in support of H.Res.246 is unforgivable. And if Bernie Sanders wants to keep his support, he’d better fire Ro Khanna as soon as possible. Those two should just resign and go work for AIPAC. Disgusting.

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