Social Question

Dutchess_III's avatar

Do you have any idea who you're going to vote for?

Asked by Dutchess_III (42261points) December 1st, 2019

I’m leaning toward Kamala at this point .

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

157 Answers

hmmmmmm's avatar

Bernie is the only Democrat I’ll vote for in primary or general.

gorillapaws's avatar

Bernie. He has the best chance of beating Trump by far.

janbb's avatar

The Democrat.

Vignette's avatar

Kamala is toast now that her manager of operations quit and wrote a scathing letter outlining how awfully Kamala treated her campaign workers. If I were to vote Democratic I would be taking a hard look at Tulsi as her platform is very progressive almost conservative and appears to have cherry picked causes from both the DNC and RNC platforms that will garner her attention from the independents. Plus AFAICT Tulsi will have so little baggage for Trump to beat her up on where Joe, Bernie and Warren will be ground up to pieces by Trump. Tulsi would be Trumps Kryptonite.

rebbel's avatar

Probably Sadet Karabulut.
Like the previous two times.

johnpowell's avatar

Anybody but Trump.

But yeah

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Vignette, do you have a link to that?

johnpowell's avatar

Vignette follows three people here. Josie and knowitall are two of them. So lets not consider them the pulse of the party. It is like me saying I want littleboymolesterMcbabyraper to be the Republican nominee.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The bird put it best. In the end, it will be whichever is not Trump

Response moderated (Writing Standards)
Dutchess_III's avatar

@johnpowell what are you talking about? “Vignette follows three people here. Josie and knowitall are two of them. So lets not consider them the pulse of the party. It is like me saying I want littleboymolesterMcbabyraper to be the Republican nominee.”

Demosthenes's avatar

I’d like to vote for someone for once, but my vote will probably be against Trump more than anything. Or I may not vote or vote 3rd party. We shall see.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Demosthenes please don’t vote 3rd party or not at all. Both of those are a vote for trump.

janbb's avatar

@Demosthenes Not voting or voting third party is a vote for four more years of Trump. Just sayin’

janbb's avatar

@Dutchess_III Join me in a Coke?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

As of now I will not be voting. I can’t in good conscience vote for any of these “candidates.” At best I’ll write someone in. I do not agree with the way the Democrats want to steer this country and what the implications are for the economy. I have serious doubts about Trumps mental health and the implications of what he could do. All roads lead to ruin here so I’m not going to be a willing participant in this mess.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@AreYou Really? That surprises me.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@KNOWITALL Why? It’s no secret I’m a conservative leaning centrist. There is no candidate for someone like me. This election is about the extremes of which I want no part of. It’s a fail either way as far as I’m concerned.

johnpowell's avatar

@Dutchess_III :: Lets just say the campaign of Tulsi is weird. She has pretty much zero support. Except for odd spending bursts with billboards in South Carolina. And I know Hillary called her a stooge. But something is off.

No Democrat ever talks about her unless it is about how odd her shit is. Her past completely eliminates her from ever coming close to the nomination.

But Gabbard wasn’t a garden variety homophobe; she was an anti-gay activist. I don’t blame her for the work of her infinitely more loathsome father, Mike Gabbard, but the first half of her career was marked by an ongoing attempt to harm the gay community. Briefly: As a teen, she promoted her father’s anti-gay organization, which, among other things, promotes gay conversion therapy; in her first run for office, for the Hawaii state legislature, she touted her efforts to pass a constitutional ban on gay marriage; and as a state legislator, she opposed even the skim-milk civil unions that were offered as a half-measure to placate the people she referred to as “homosexual extremist[s].”

Edit:: And lets say I was touting Trump in 2015 you would call me out for promoting a person I thought had no chance of winning.

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

At this point, I honestly don’t know who I’ll vote for other than “Never Trump”. I’ve always liked Joe Biden, even when he makes gaffs, but feel he’s more of a side-kick than the one leader I’d like but, yes, I’d vote for him. He might just be the candidate to pull things together in what we know will be a chaotic time. Warren, who seems to be running high in the polls, would most likely be a good choice, tho’ I’ve never been a huge fan. Would I vote for her over Trump? In a heartbeat. Bernie? I’ve never warmed up to Bernie. I don’t think I ever will but would I vote for him vrs. Trump. As a write-in? Never. I actually like Harris and Castro but neither of them seems to have a shot at this point but I’d vote for them if they were on the Dem. ticket. I definitely like Mayor Pete, he’s a bit of fresh air, but don’t quite feel he’s ready for the big leagues yet but, yes, he’d get my vote over Trump. Heck, I don’t care for Gabbard at all but if it was her vrs. Trump, I’d hold my nose and vote for her. Are you beginning to see a pattern here? I’m sure there are more candidates at this point but they blur in my mind but, yeah, oh, nameless to me ones, you’d get my vote over Trumpster.

JLeslie's avatar

I’m still not sure.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

@Vignette….I did go look only found a reference on sites that I can’t trust that much.

jca2's avatar

Anybody but Trump.

Vignette's avatar

@Dutchess_lll NYT’s has one of the more extensive stories but no way in hell I will subscribe there. Here is a link to it through MSN

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I won’t subscribe to any magazine. Plus in the few seconds before the pop up blocks me I get the text copied and paste it into Word.

SEKA's avatar

Do a search for an acceptable site. That was almost ALL that popped up on every news site today. She’s leaving Harris and flipping over to Bloomberg.

I know who I’ll be voting for, but I’m not sharing it here so you can attack no matter who
I say

chyna's avatar

Anyone that is running against trump.

JLeslie's avatar

My previous answer is about the primaries.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Will you vote in the primary for a Democrat? You can have some influence then.

Brian1946's avatar

Bernie.

6 words for him and his circulatory system: granulated lecithin and lots of walking.

Demosthenes's avatar

@johnpowell And the fact that Gabbard has no chance because of her past is illustrative of this whole unfortunate “zero tolerance/no redemption/cancel culture” milieu of today. I’m gay and I’d vote for Gabbard; she has changed her views. It is possible for a person to do so. It’s also interesting to me because Trump changed his views many times, often in a less genuine or sincere way, and Republicans accept him as one of their own but Democrats won’t accept when one of theirs changes for the better. Not anymore at least.

johnpowell's avatar

Cool beans. Why would you vote for Gabbard? Tell me policy positions that get you excited.

I’m willing to wait. I know you have to Google her platform.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I have to say I hate to hear you won’t vote. I’m not one of those people who thinks everyone should vote or be forced to vote. I think if people are disinterested or apathetic and don’t pay attention to politics they shouldn’t vote, but you do pay attention and seem to care.

LadyMarissa's avatar

Yes, I have decided where to cast my vote!!!

johnpowell's avatar

If you can’t be bothered to vote can you just shut the fuck up? I’m going to assume you are for brown kids in cages. And treason.. and fucking the EPA.. and capitulation to Russia.. And racism.. and so many more but I am tired.

You own this shit..

full. fuckin. stop

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@johnpowell Just listen to yourself, you think I want anything to do with what just came out of your mouth?

kritiper's avatar

The Democrat, or whoever can beat Trump. I’m really liking Mike Bloomberg right now…

SEKA's avatar

I don’t like Bloomberg; but if he’s who is running against Trump, he’ll get my vote

johnpowell's avatar

Do I really think that anything that just came out of my mouth will change your mind? No, I do not. So I don’t care. This isn’t Morning Joe where I play the “Republican that wants to shift left leaning politicians to the center so Joe and Mika can get tax cuts”.

You are dug in and so am I. I don’t need to appease you.

That is the shit they play on CNN and MSNBC. The left has to shift to the center. But the right can just keep getting more batshit and that is cool. Fuuuck that. Time to shift the window back.

Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million. And he hasn’t done great in midterms and governors races. He is going to lose to anyone.

cookieman's avatar

I agree that it would be nice to vote for someone as opposed to just against Trump.

JLeslie's avatar

@johnpowell You sound overconfident. Trump still has a ton of support. He could win the electoral college and lose the popular vote again. I’d say swing states are still swinging. Anything could happen in those states. I’m in a swing state, Florida, one of the most important states. I wouldn’t bet money on this race when it comes to my state.

johnpowell's avatar

It is a year away. Fuck if I know.

But I have a feeling. And again. I feel like it is people that are not Democrats telling Democrats how to feel. And I am going to fight that.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

Yeah, when it comes down to it there will be a Republican candidate and Democrat candidate. One of those two will win.
You can vote independent and third party till the cows come home but it will be a waste of time and a waste of your vote, and it’s a vote for trump.

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LadyMarissa's avatar

Two million Dems voted for hillary that didn’t count because of the electoral college. Were those wasted votes??? Wasn’t one of those 2 mil yours???

johnpowell's avatar

Not wasted

johnpowell's avatar

Still waiting for why anyone would vote for Tulsi Gabbard.

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johnpowell's avatar

I have a lasagna in the oven.. Still waiting to know what policies Tulsi Gabbard has that make you think, “fuck it!”.

Dutchess_lll's avatar

I want some lasagna.

JLeslie's avatar

@johnpowell Not Democrats? Lol. I’ve been a Democrat my whole life.

Michael Moore, the film producer who is always fighting for the American laborer, made a movie for gun control, always out there fighting for Democrats, even he said when Trump was running the Democrats were fucking it up. He believed Trump could win. He said calling Republicans racist, deplorable, and uneducated was a mistake that will bring out the votes for Trump. No one listened to him.

Meghan McCain (who is a Republican) on The View hates Trump, and she tries to explain how Republicans and Trumpers think, because she is surrounded by them, and no one wants to listen, they just tell her how horrible Trump is. She literally can be fully agreeing about something Trump did as horrendous, and her View colleagues treat her like she is pro-Trump, because she is trying to explain the Trump supporter point of view. You have to learn about the enemy to beat them.

Do you know a lot of Republicans in real life? Do you know a lot of Trump supporters in real life?

Vignette's avatar

@johnpowell Tulsi caught my attention not so much by her policies but that she has defined herself and her issues as one to buck the status quo of the DNC. Her issues are progressive and are backed by more than the hot air talking points we are getting from the bulk of the Dems running. In no particular order:

She is a yuge supporter of our service men and championing better care for vets especially those harmed during their service.
She has one of the more detailed and sensible campaign reform proposals we need more than anything.
She is very big on civil liberties I especially like her fighting for our privacy rights especially online.
She has a very sensible approach to climate change that is very far removed from the knee jerk the sky is falling hysterics of the Left.
Our oceans are dying before our very eyes and she is the only candidate Trump included that has a detailed approach to righting some of our horrible wrongs with regards to our oceans.
As a woman she is coming out strong against sex trafficking and other civil liberty issues again that separate her from the rest of her party.
She is strongly against our foreign policies of regime change conflicts something Trump is big on and I approve. She also echoes the approach to NoKo that Trump has initiated and encouraging that she could continue putting pressure on Kim to play fair same for Iran and Syria. Yuge issues I am interested in.
Like Trump she is not beholden to political interests (yet) and that bring a lot of appeal to me. In the same breath I believe this will give her currency to work both sides of the isle and perhaps finally get some bi-partisan forward momentum back in Congress.

Her weak point I see is lack of international experience. Trump has done a LOT to move the needle abroad and that is super important to me in that we know have our stature as a force to be reckoned with again in terms of negotiation power. Not sure she could be as effective as trump with China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan and Iraq to name just a few.

Many more issues I like her position on but what caught my attention the most was this tweet quote from her…“Hey @realdonaldtrump: being Saudi Arabia’s bitch is not ‘America First.’”

canidmajor's avatar

“I’m going to vote my conscience” and “I can’t, in good conscience vote for any of the candidates presented” is appropriate only for the primaries. When it comes to the general election, voting your actual conscience would indicate that you do what is needed to promote, if not the well-being, than at least the least harmful, alternative for the greatest number of people who will be affected. Voting for a third party or a write-in does nothing more than make a pointless statement that benefits no one.

Before anyone climbs upon their high moral horses, maybe they could consider outcome over ego.

LadyMarissa's avatar

There is NOTHING wrong with voting third party…the 2 we have now are FAILING miserably. First they tell us that we don’t have the right to bitch about who is in office IF we don’t vote. Then those who vote third party are told they are wrong for doing so by the parties that are NO longer doing their job. At some point, there WILL be enough third party voters that it WILL make a difference…it has to START somewhere!!!

canidmajor's avatar

Bold words, those, @LadyMarissa, and always the response to my type of post. How many more children will be torn from their parents, how many more decorated veterans will be deported, how many more environmental protections nullified because you are so high-minded? This is not the time. Want your personal protections cut back (read “Medicare” and “social security”)? It’s on the table now. What have you done in the meantime (between presidential elections) to facilitate the dismantling of the two-party system? Honestly curious about that.

canidmajor's avatar

And now the clichéed response is “If not now, when?” and “There’s always a reason to delay”, but really, think what the consequences are right now for using up a vote for someone who can’t win.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Voting 3rd party is self defeating, and self defeating to the nation.

LadyMarissa's avatar

I refer back to the 2 million votes for hillary that did NOT count due to the gerrymandering. My vote counted just as much as IF I had voted Dem!!! Had I voted Dem, there would have been 2 milliuon & one votes that did NOT count. I know that you’ve got to blame somebody & I’m your most convenient fall guy!!! I REFUSE to be bullied into voting the way YOU think I should. Until the 2 party system fixes themselves, I feel I have NO other option!!!

It’s very easy to be arrogant when you have a 50/50 chance of your candidate going in than a 33/33/33 chance. Get off your high horse & FIX the system you so love!!!

canidmajor's avatar

Oh do read my post more carefully, @LadyMarissa. Still curious what you have done to facilitate the dismantling of the two party system? Anything? At all?
And I was responding directly to your response to me, you are only a “fall guy” if you put yourself into that position.
And I never once said I supported the two party system, you are leaping to histrionic conclusions.
Do what you want, I don’t care, my original post was meant for a general audience, believe it or not, you don’t cross my mind until you stand right in front of me.

Jonsblond's avatar

Bernie. I even have my husband on board and he has never voted. Wisconsin has two new people voting for Sanders.

Vignette's avatar

@canidmajor As far as the 3rd party vote I would respectfully disagree in that your own vote is just that. You vote for your own best interest and what IMHO is what voting is all about. Nothing is a bigger waste of time and disservice than to vote straight ticket. All that does is guarantee idiots can get elected on the coattails of a party favorite. Really every vote does count and believe you me that all candidates consider the votes they didn’t get just as important as the votes they did get. When you vote 3rd party it sends a message to the front runner that you suck enough that I couldn’t vote for either of you and they at least pay a little attention to the voters that did not vote for them. At least then I can sleep at night if or when I do vote Libertarian.

Dutchess_III's avatar

It wasn’t gerrymandering @LadyMarissa. It was the Electoral College. I don’t hope they get rid of it by the next election.

Jonsblond's avatar

@Vignette I’ve noticed I rarely agree with you but I do agree with you about third party votes.

gorillapaws's avatar

@canidmajor ”...How many more children will be torn from their parents, how many more decorated veterans will be deported,[etc]...”

If the Democratic party is going to keep rigging the elections to favor corporate tools who suck the dicks of the fossil fuel industry (including frackers), while promoting mild incremental change on environmental policy, then you’re looking at hundreds of millions of people dying if not more due to irreversible climate change. We are driving towards a fucking cliff, and slowing down from 60mph to 50mph isn’t going to fix things. We need someone who is going to change the direction of the car and drive away from the cliff. I’d actually prefer a scumbag like trump who accelerates from 60mph to 70mph towards the cliff for 4 years if it means we get someone who turns away from the cliff the next cycle. 4–8 years of mild improvements followed by Trump 2.0 is going to doom the entire planet.

I’d shoot 1,000 kids in the head myself if it meant saving the entire human race from living in a post-apocalyptic hellscape until we slowly go extinct.

Coolhandluke's avatar

Whoever it is, it’ll be a Republican.

tinyfaery's avatar

I know who my primary candidate is and I will vote for any democrat in the general. 2016 taught me that I have to stop being selfish. People are hurting, struggling, dying while we sit here with ideological purity tests and complaints about our political system, which will only change by not following the constitution. Don’t wait for the American government to do something, do it yourself.

Dutchess_III's avatar

^ What she said.
The “logic” being given for voting independent or not at all is so illogical it’s making my head spin.

Demosthenes's avatar

@Vignette Thanks for posting that. Those are reasons that Gabbard appeals to me as well, especially her position on foreign entanglements and “regime change” wars. Yes, some of Gabbard’s appeal is that her positions are similar to or at least compatible with some of the more positive aspects of Trump’s policies. I’ve heard some Democrats mockingly refer to her as “Trump lite” but that seems like an exaggeration. Nonetheless, she is certainly outside the establishment/status quo that lost the 2016 election. Her tweet about Saudi Arabia also caught my attention and highlights a hypocrisy of the Trump administration.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I will be voting in the primaries. I just don’t know for who yet.
When it comes down to the final, I will listen to the debates carefully, then probably vote for the Democratic candidate.

In the 2016 election, 231 million people were eligible to vote. However, roughly half of them did not vote. That’s one hundred MILLION people who didn’t vote. Hillary won by 3 million votes, but lost the electoral college. Let’s say Hillary could have gotten and additional one hundred million, or even half of that, say by 50 millions, you don’t think it would have made a difference.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Dutchess_III “Let’s say Hillary could have gotten and additional one hundred million…”

What you don’t get is that a neoliberal agenda makes people STAY HOME. That’s why she lost. Those people who don’t vote are mostly the working poor and the young (They’re not undecided moderates who think the parties are too polar and so sit out the election). This is Bernie’s constituency (by the way). Both groups have been crushed by the steady march of the Democratic party away from FDR and towards Reagan. They’re politically apathetic to the empty rhetoric of corporate Dems who say nice things in speeches and then don’t try very hard (or deliberately obstruct the progressive policies that the democratic voters want) once elected. Obama had a super-majority and the best he could deliver on is the fucking Republican Healthcare plan from the 90’s. It’s no wonder that voters didn’t turn out and they Democrats lost about 1,000 seats nationwide.

Arguing Hillary could have picked up this demographic would be like saying the Seventh-Day Adventist Church would more than double in size if only it could convert over the Satanists and the Atheists. Assuming another vapid, disingenuous, corporate puppet, regurgitating focus-group-tested platitudes will achieve a different outcome than Hilary did with the same playbook is a moronic calculation.

I’m not going to throw my vote away on another candidate like Hilary who can’t win.

jca2's avatar

Yeah but didn’t Hillary win the popular vote, @gorillapaws ? So the liberals did come out and vote, that wasn’t the problem.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I believe Trump won because too many moderates, liberals, etc. from BOTH parties looked at the field and stayed home, thinking there wasn’t a chance in hell that the fool might be elected. I also think those people have since learned their lesson and in view of Trump’s subsequent performance found their noses rubbed mercilessly in said lesson. If Trump survives until November, I believe his defeat at the polls will be the greatest slaughter ever handed an incumbent President.

JLeslie's avatar

@jca2 Just didn’t come out in the states where it matters, or in those swing states the Independents and some Democrats voted for Trump. Which has been my point all along the electoral college still could go Trump. The swing states a crucial. They always are, but it seems even more important now. I think the Midwest is really important. A candidate from there might be the best bet.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Bill Clinton 2.0 would work. Many of us adored him.

seawulf575's avatar

Right now, given the field, I’d vote for Trump.

chyna's avatar

^I’m shocked.~

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I feel like some of you who seem to want to bully those of us who probably won’t vote think that we are on the fence and can be swayed one way or another. That’s not really the case. While I’m not a fan of Trump I’m not a fan of the candidates who move further left to oppose him. You can pretty much take everything I hate about the right and the left and magnify it several times to describe this “election.” As of right now Trump is almost guaranteed a win because of the lack of any give whatsoever from the left. Lots of grandiose things being said from them and almost none of it is either in good faith or really deliverable. A good number of people in the center are going to vote for Trump and probably in greater numbers than they did in the last election.

JLeslie's avatar

^^My point wasn’t to bully you, I hope it didn’t come across that way. My point was if there is any Democrat you think who might be better than Trump, I think at least go out and vote in the primary. But, maybe not one of the Democrats is more desirable to you than Trump? I guess that’s what you’re saying.

My take on this Q was the primaries, because that’s the next vote coming up for me. That’s what I’m trying to decide now, who to vote for in the primaries.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@JLeslie Not you, did not get that vibe at all.

gorillapaws's avatar

@jca2 “Yeah but didn’t Hillary win the popular vote, @gorillapaws ? So the liberals did come out and vote, that wasn’t the problem.”

First, let me mention that we don’t elect a president based on popular vote. Winning the popular vote is about as relevant to winning an election as your ability to win a hot-dog-eating-contest in Bolivia.

Second, there are MANY more left-leaning Americans in the country than right leaning. The problem is that they don’t turn out to vote. If you look at the data for non-voters, demographically they are mostly blue. They’re young, poor/working class, more heavily skewed minority, and less educated. If you turn these people out with an authentic populist platform, you obliterate the Republicans by huge margins. It’s not even close. Obama tapped into this group for his record win in 2008 where Dems swept the House and Senate.

Thirdly, I would use @ARE_you_kidding_me as the perfect example of why it makes no sense to target “moderates.” Right now the Democratic primary is packed with Republican-lite candidates. Kobuchar is practically a Republican and she’s still not conservative enough for @ARE_you_kidding_me. Moving so far to the right to try to appease “Whole-Foods Republicans” is a fools errand. For every one you pick up, you’re turning away many from the left that don’t show up to the polls. Not to mention, what’s the fucking point of winning when they’re just going to implement less shitty Republican policy? That’s how we ended up with Trump.

The Democrats have been playing this game for years and it’s been a horrible failure. If they went back to FDR policies, and actually fought for them, they would be politically unstoppable.

Jonsblond's avatar

^Exactly right. Three years ago Bernie supporters were told he’d never win with his agenda. We were told progressives needed to start from the bottom and move up. They did this very thing the past three years. Look at how many progressives and socialist democrats have won a variety of seats all over the country. Progressives ousted Scott Walker here in Wisconsin. My county had 100% turnout thanks to younger, progressive voters. In 2016 Wisconsin went to Trump. Bernie won the primary that year, beating Hillary by 13%. Wisconsin is desperate for something different. A moderate isn’t it.

Bernie would have won last time if the media and Democratic Party hadn’t been against him. He can do it this time.

Vignette's avatar

@gorillapaws The ONLY reason we wound up with Trump was the Dems insisted on forcing Hillary on the voters. Now you still have many Republicans still would LOVE to clear Trump out of the White House but once again the Dems are tone deaf to the reality that people want change and insist on trotting out old Joe Biden and once again relegating Bernie to the shadows. I am pretty sure you like I know Bernie would have won the election had Hillary and the DNC not messed it up for him. The DNC right now is it’s own worst enemy and they just appear that they cannot help themselves. In the end, we survived 8 years of Obama and we will survive 8 years of Trump.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Vignette “The ONLY reason we wound up with Trump was the Dems insisted on forcing Hillary on the voters.”

That was a huge part of it, but the other part has been going on for decades. The Democrats have been moving further and further away from being the party of the working-class American. The rhetoric is mostly populist, but once in office they are being paid by their donors to make sure significant populist policy changes never become implemented. You have guys like Obama who promise change and hope and then immediately begin compromising on populist policy the second they get in office. Imaging if Trump were to begin his first day and say, well we need to work with Democrats so I’m going to ask for half of a wall, or a full-length wall, but half as tall—on day one?

This leads people to political apathy. They stop believing that government can make changes that meaningfully improve their lives, especially after decades of disappointment. They become discouraged, and politically apathetic, and that’s why they didn’t turn out for Clinton. That’s why they won’t turn out for Buttigieg, or Klobuchar, Biden, and probably not even for Warren (if I’m being entirely honest).

The 2020 election will be won and lost by voter turnout in the rust belt. That is THE metric for determining victory. If you’re looking for an “electable” challenger to Trump, picture the candidate who can convince the under-employed (juggling 3 part-time jobs), former-union worker in Michigan that it’s worth standing in line on a, cold-early November morning that it’s worth it. That making the efforts required to vote will have any purpose in changing his or his community’s lives for the better in any way.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Kamala’s out. It sucks that you have to have a lot of money to run.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Dutchess_III But that’s part of the ‘game’. You follow the status quo and get your money if you vote how they want you to. If you are independent and don’t want to play by the ‘game’ rules, then you best have a lot of support and money.

I instantly thought that as soon as I saw she dropped out. She must be more of an independent than I though.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I didn’t say I didn’t understand it. I said it sucks.

gorillapaws's avatar

You guys are giving Kamla WAY too much credit. Steve Mnuchin’s bank was illegally foreclosing on CA mortgages after the crash, and making a fortune doing it. Kamala’s staff was encouraging her to prosecute, and she didn’t. She also happened to be the only Democrat to get a donation from Mnuchin, and also a maxed out donation from George Soros.

58% of her funds come from large individual contributions. She’s been fundraising in the Hamptons and Martha’s Vineyard raising over $1million from the politically connected elites. She’s been bought long ago, and she’s dropping out because voters aren’t buying what she’s selling. They want authenticity, not a candidate who is constantly changing their policy based on the latest focus-group data.

jca2's avatar

@gorillapaws: I’m aware that we don’t elect people based on the popular vote. I was responding to your referring to why Hillary lost when you talked about the popular vote being the reason. You wrote “What you don’t get is that a neoliberal agenda makes people STAY HOME. That’s why she lost. Those people who don’t vote are mostly the working poor and the young (They’re not undecided moderates who think the parties are too polar and so sit out the election).”

gorillapaws's avatar

@jca2 I’m not following your point. Voters in the rust belt stayed home. They came out for Obama, but didn’t show up for Hillary. She got decimated in the Rust Belt and that’s why she lost. The election had the lowest voter turnout (as a percent of eligible voters) since Bush/Gore in 2000. Winning the popular vote in an election with low turnout isn’t an indication that you or your policies are popular.

Dutchess_III's avatar

My kids were going to vote for the first time in their lives, for Bernie. Man, they were fired up….but then….

Now I feel guilty because I didn’t make a bigger deal about voting when they were growing up, so that they understood how important it is.

Jonsblond's avatar

^My oldest son will be moving in with us shortly for a chance at a better life. (Lots of well paying jobs here in Madison.) I’ll be dragging him to the polls along with my husband. That’s two new voters in a major swing state.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I mean, it’s something I should have done while they were growing up so that it was just something they do, like brushing their teeth. It just never occurred to me that there could be anyone out there who wouldn’t vote.
But, I came out of the 60’s movement where they said, “You think we’re old enough to go to war, but not old enough to vote for who sends us there?? Bullshit!”
And they were right.
Carter was the first president I voted for.

Jonsblond's avatar

Bill Clinton was my first.

jca2's avatar

I think you and I are not talking about the same thing, @gorillapaws.

In your post, you mentioned why Hillary lost. You said she lost because liberals did not turn out (meaning she lost because of losing the popular vote). I pointed out that she won the popular vote (which means liberals did turn out to vote for her, negating your point). You came back with that we don’t elect Presidents based on the popular vote, which I know. Your first comment seemed to indicate that you’re saying she lost the popular vote.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

“Right now the Democratic primary is packed with Republican-lite candidates”
No, they’re all pretty far left. To think that you must be be waaay out in left field.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws What about Bill Clinton and Obama? They were fairly moderate. Bill was moderate, even conservative on some fiscal things. Obama was still saying marriage was between a man and a woman when he was running (I never believed he thought that way, but I assume some people believed him).

Clinton appealed to Christians and Southerners, because he could speak their language. Obama was/is black and so the black bite cane out and the white vote that loved the idea of a black president, and then there were the people who were color blind, but simply liked him.

I can tell you in Florida, being very far left is a huge risk. Most Cubans are Republicans, but many of the younger generation are Democrats, BUT anything that sounds like a slippery slope to a Castro or Chavez regime is not going to sit well. You can try to argue it’s socialism like Sweden not Venezuela, but that’s not how it plays down here.

A lot of the swing states are not in favor of far left policies. The swing states are what matter.

I’m afraid of things being too socialized myself. I’ve always been in favor of socialized medicine, even though I’m sure the government won’t do it perfectly, but I also think some social policies have huge flaws and sometimes make things worse with unintended consequences. More than anything, I don’t want the government to have too much power when “the people” put people like Trump into power! Think about it. The majority of Americans don’t trust politicians, they feel congress has been ineffective, but we want the same people to basically have more power. There is some irony there.

gorillapaws's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me “No, they’re all pretty far left. To think that you must be be waaay out in left field.”

This is exactly my point. Any Democrat trying to win your vote is a total fucking moron. You can mentally frame yourself as a moderate, but any objective assessment of your political views on the Political Compass would show that you are pretty radical and far from a “moderate.”

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@gorillapaws I have always fallen way down on the libertarian axis and dead center when taking that test. To say what is coming out of your mouth is anywhere near the truth just shows how out of touch you are with people in and around the center. Any democrat that would win my vote would not only not be a moron but would have to be pretty honest in an election dominated by the extremes. I am in no way radical. You’re honestly just throwing that out with nothing to back it up. What about me would you consider “radical.”

stanleybmanly's avatar

All of you miss the facts concerning Bernie and the Democratic party. I concur with the proposition that the party swindled Bernie in 2016. And the reason Trump made it while Bernie was kneecapped, was that the Democrats are more astute than their Republican counterparts when it comes to managing candidate insurrection. The Democrats recognized the threat for what it was. The Republicans looked at Trump, and the few in the crowd with intellectual heft or political pedigree regarded the fool with the exact contempt as their Democratic counterparts. They initially recognized Trump for the catastrophe he most assuredly is, but mistakenly believed that the catastrophe actually might involve an idiot upsetting the apple cart through recklessly “draining the swamp.” No one quite understood that the actual threat would be the inexorable destruction of the GOP through endemic and less than subtle corruption!

JLeslie's avatar

@stanleybmanly I disagree. Years ago (like 15 years ago) I saw Trump say the Republicans are much better at influencing and brainwashing and propaganda and getting their guy over the finish line. Even if Trump is half demented now, I think he remembered that, and it’s probably partly why he ran as a Republican. The Republicans won the last presidential election, a lot of them still like Trump. They like who he appoints to the Supreme Court. I don’t think we can say the Republicans are stupid when it comes to elections or to say it is destroying the Republican Party I think is a reach. The Republicans mostly seem to be sticking together. I don’t think the Republicans are any more split than the Democrats.

gorillapaws's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me ” have always fallen way down on the libertarian axis and dead center when taking that test.”

That would put you further left than nearly every Democratic Primary candidate except for Bernie, and possibly Warren.

“What about me would you consider “radical.””

To be fair I said “pretty radical.” I would say your statement: “No, [the Democratic Primary Candidates] all pretty far left.” would make you pretty radical. Bernie and Gabbard were the only currently running candidates to vote against the $80 billion increase to the defense budget for 2018.

70% of American support Medicare for All, and yet Bernie appears to be the only candidate to voice unqualified support for the plan.

58% of Americans (including 40% of Republicans) support tuition-free public education. That’s hardly a radical position.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “A lot of the swing states are not in favor of far left policies”

These are mainstream policies. They are incredibly popular. If the Dems can get high turnout in the Rust Belt, then they will win, regardless of what Florida does. If the Dems don’t have a high turnout in the Rust Belt, then they will lose. At the end of the day, that’s why anyone that’s going to beat Trump has to be able to address that working-class constituency from the Rust Belt with credibility.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws That statistic on free education is shocking to me. Do you know where you saw that. I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m just saying I want to read about who was polled.

JLeslie's avatar

The rust belt is not Bernie or Warren in my opinion.

JLeslie's avatar

Well, maybe WI would go for Bernie.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Bernie was trailing Clinton by 21 points in Michigan and beat her in the primary. You’re crazy if you don’t think he will do well in the rust belt.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I don’t know how valid that poll is. It’s 1,000 voters who took the poll online. Most people I know aren’t on board with completely free, but that doesn’t mean anything, I’m not even talking about 100 people I know.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws We aren’t talking about beating Democrats, we are talking about beating Trump in the rust belt.

I knew Trump would win in PA. I had a good feeling Trump would win in MI and IN. I wasn’t sure about OH. This time around I still think Trump has a good shot in PA, FL, and IN. I think WI and MI are probably up for grabs.

I didn’t think Trump would actually win the election, so I was obviously wrong about that, but I did think he would get some states that people seemed to not expect.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie There are 206 counties that voted Obama twice and then went to Trump (mostly in the Rust Belt). Bernie has over 33k individual donors from those counties making over 81k total donations.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

“That would put you further left than nearly every Democratic Primary candidate except for Bernie, and possibly Warren.” I highly doubt it, I have taken the political compass test eight or ten times over the years and what I observe does not align with what you’re saying.

I’m in a deep red state and we already have free tuition for in-state community college which I support. It’s paid for by the state lottery. I would not support tax payer paid tuition for all. I would also not support loan forgiveness. Programs to help those in trouble because of it and harder limits for how much student debt someone can take… sure. Would I be considered a free tuition supporter in that statistic based on the way the poll question is asked? I don’t know anyone even remotely right leaning that supports medicare for all. That poll again does not line up with what I observe. I do know that almost anyone I talk to is fed up with the healthcare system, myself included. Most on the right are concerned with the obscene cost in general and not how we pay for it. I’d like to see a stronger focus on primary care, prevention and regulation on how much companies can charge for things like pharmaceuticals. Would I be in the medicare for all camp based on how the questions are asked? I’m inclined not to trust that poll very well. Especially with such a small number and not seeing the survey questions. You wont see me throw statistics out because I don’t trust them without all the proper context. Polls showed Hillary as the clear winner but we know that was not really the case as they were used as a propaganda tool to help her election.
Furthermore, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to pick between Trump and Sanders I would pick Sanders. Reason being is throughout his political career he has talked big and grandiose like this but has never proven to be more than an average, run of the mill politician. A halfway decent one too. If you’re voting for him based on what he is saying then I have a bridge for sale cheap that you may be interested in.

Jonsblond's avatar

@JLeslie Bernie beat Hillary by 13% in Wisconsin in 2016. In 2018 Governor Scott Walker was ousted by a progressive Democrat. A progressive can definitely beat Trump in Wisconsin.

gorillapaws's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me “I highly doubt it, I have taken the political compass test eight or ten times over the years and what I observe does not align with what you’re saying.”

If you’re pretty close to the center then you’re LEFT of nearly all of the Democratic primary candidates.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jonsblond Like I said, WI is probably up for grabs.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Did all of those candidates take that test and submit their results? I also don’t think that test is much better than a facebook poll either. Their “analysis” put them in the right. Pretty comical if you asked me.

gorillapaws's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me “Their “analysis” put them in the right.”

That’s my point. The Democratic party has drifted very far right over the years. If you think someone like Biden or Buttigieg belongs “left of center” then where does Bernie fit in?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@gorillapaws I just took the thing again:

Economic Left/Right: -0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.85

I have no faith in this test. Almost every question proposed a false dichotomy.

They most certainly have drifted further left regardless of where a couple of people running a website put them on their chart. Any fool can see that.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@JLeslie My view of Trump’s choice to embrace Republicanism n authentification is about that party’s malleability regarding tolerance of the cognitively challenged. The party that actually promulgates the notion that intellect is but a euphemism for snooty elitism. With this in mind, which party would you expect as the haven for an ambitious man who is basically functionally illiterate?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stanley Who’s selling rice to China now? The US. Tell me thats not smart.

JLeslie's avatar

Is Kamala out of the race?

stanleybmanly's avatar

@KNOWITALL Smart? How much rice do you think we’ll have to export in order to replace the manufacturing jobs we’ve shipped to China? 30 years ago we were giving food away to China. 30 years from now, Americans will be the illegals in China looking for a better life. In fact the trend is already well underway.

gorillapaws's avatar

@stanleybmanly The source I found said we exported $3,000 worth of rice to China in 2018. That is unbelievable. So smart…

stanleybmanly's avatar

@JLeslie Kamala dropped out & Trump tweeted sarcastically “too bad Kamala. We’ll miss you”. To which she quickly quipped “don’t worry mister president, I’ll see you at your trial”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@stan Jobs left the US before Trump.
See, to me the rice and the lack of Google skills shows you guys cant acknowledge any good. Smh.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL How much rice did the US export to China in 2018?

gorillapaws's avatar

@jca2 If my napkin math is correct that ~88,000 lbs of rice the article mentions for 2019 is valued around $20,000 on the commodities market. Just think if this rate of growth continues over the next decade, Trump may completely negate the US trade deficit on rubber dog shit with China.

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t get it. The US is one of the largest rice exporters in the world! This one California company starts sending rice to China and its big news, but there is no mention of the rice statistics for America and other large rice exporting countries. This is so typical of reporting today. Cherry picked information. Am I missing something? The US exports over a billion dollars in rice. Most people have no idea how large our rice crops are, because the US is not thought of as a rice country. We are meat and potatoes, that’s partly why we export the rice probably. We grow a ton of it in Arkansas.

Vignette's avatar

This rice deal with China is actually a really big deal, so big it is YUGE! Yes laugh at one small family farm that is approved to sell their 88,000 lbs, but good for them they have worked many years to get this opportunity and good for Trump in opening up this little segment of trade with China as again it is a YUGE opportunity. US farmers produce 9 millions pounds of rice a year which is roughly just 2 WEEKS of rice consumed in all of China. That represents a 468,000,000,000 pound market for rice. That will put a lot of US farms back in business. Did I say that was YUGE??

I’m still going to write in Kamala

gorillapaws's avatar

@Vignette “US farmers produce 9 millions pounds of rice a year ”

That’s valued a little over $2 million dollars at current commodity prices. I highly suspect we import at least $2 million worth of rubber dog shit from China per year.

stanleybmanly's avatar

@KNOWITALL my comment about the jobs wasn’t made to disparage Trump. I wasn’t thinking about him at all. The rice deal is simply a reflection of the fact that the Chinese are no longer insecure about foreign dependency on the staple crop defining their existence. And you are wrong in assuming that I view Trump only as a monolith of evil. I actually believe that Trump thinks he is acting in the best interests of the country.

Vignette's avatar

@gorillapaws You just seem committed to undermining anything and everything our President does and that is certainly your prerogative. In the meantime, Trump has opened the door to one commodity that has been locked out for years now. Something Obama never came close to doing. We are decades overdue for improved trade deals, Trump campaigned on it and despite Herculean efforts on the Left to undermine everything he does, Trump is still getting it done and access to a potential market worth $52,000,000 US dollars in rice sales in nothing to sneeze at. Try looking at the larger picture of what Trumps efforts with restructuring trade with China is already worth. China is going to pay either by opening other commodities to our markets or pay in tariffs. Either way it is working bigley for ‘US’ IMHO.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Jonsblond

The farm magazine polls more than a thousand farmers monthly. Herath says Trump’s popularity slumped a bit in the summer, but he notes it bounced back to 76% favorable the week the U.S. House launched its impeachment inquiry.

https://www.kcur.org/post/kansas-and-missouri-farmers-are-sticking-trump-despite-hard-times-hes-caused-them#stream/0

Jonsblond's avatar

^He’s pissed off many farmers here in Wisconsin. I read articles weekly where farmers are in distress and not happy with Trump. Trump needs Wisconsin and he isn’t going to get it.

Vignette's avatar

@Jonsblond In all seriousness, who will Wisconsin elect then? A very recent survey of 1,138 farmers in September by the Farm Journal found 76 percent of them either strongly or somewhat approve of Trump’s presidency, even though his policies have hurt their pocketbooks directly.

Trump also gave out $28 billion in aid to US farmers while these trade deals with China get ironed out. Polling data still shows support for Trump is holding strong in WI while support for his impeachment is falling rapidly. Lacking some last minute miracle Dem candidate Trump will win WI handily.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Vignette It’s a hard call, he only won WI by a small margin in 2016.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Some of y’all are in crazy denial.

I just heard this on the radio “Trump not only allowed foreign intervention in our elections, he actively invited it.” What do you have to say about that?

Jonsblond's avatar

@Vignette There’s no chance of him winning Wisconsin this time. He has upset all the people who sat out during the last election. The people who didn’t vote because they thought he wouldn’t win and the people who didn’t vote because they wouldn’t vote for Hillary. Our 2016 elections are proof. We had record turnout and ousted Scott Walker and many other Republicans. Trump’s base can’t win against these people added to the other Democrats who will come out in droves. Bernie won the primary by 13% in 2016. He’s won over farmers here. He can beat Trump.

Dutchess_III's avatar

At the mid term elections Kansas voted in a Democrat Governor. He’s pissing people off!

Vignette's avatar

Again @Jonsblond What you just said is exactly what all the experts said in 2016. If you dial back your statement that there is a reasonable chance Trump could lose WI I might agree with you.

Jonsblond's avatar

Trump won by a very narrow margin in Wisconsin and turnout was low. Turnout won’t be low next time. I stand by everything I’ve said. Voters were in disbelief in 2016. Their nightmare came true and will not be sitting out or voting 3rd Party this time.

JLeslie's avatar

Opening up exports of rice to China is very nice, but like I said we (the US) already export over a billion with a B dollars of rice. Does it matter where we export the rice to? I guess it matters to that one farm, and if we can export even more in the future to China then that’s great, but we already were doing well with rice. My guess is most Americans have no idea we export so much rice, and they see this report of this one farm and think it’s some huge breakthrough, but I don’t think it is.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Vignette “You just seem committed to undermining anything and everything our President does and that is certainly your prerogative.”

I really haven’t seen much positive coming from Trump except for killing the TPP. I’d give him credit if there was something to credit him with. I’m glad we’re withdrawing from Syria, but it is my understanding that the execution of the operation was a total shit-show. It’s disappointing he’s not reducing the military budget commensurate with his promises on the campaign.

The next major economic explosion will occur in green technology. We’re talking about trillions of dollars. Trump is doing everything he can to make sure the country that leads this growth is not the USA.

The rice thing is a joke (that’s not funny). We’re doing something very wrong if we allow China to kick our ass in Green tech while selling them 1 or 2 cargo ships full of rice a year. This was done as a publicity stunt. Something he can tweet to folks too stupid to think about the situation rationally (just like the stupid fucking wall). Most of China’s imported rice is coming from poorer countries in the Indochina peninsula. Do you really think we can produce rice and transport it across the Pacific for less than what a neighboring country can with labor in the pennies per hour? Use your brain. Is this the market we should be competing in?

NoMoreY_Aagain's avatar

Haven’t decided yet. But after the Trump fiasco I’ll vote for a maggot infested piece of road kill before I’ll vote for any Republican. Or Hillary. She needs to go away..Don’t go away mad, just go the hell away.

RabidWolf's avatar

My vote will be for Trump.

Dutchess_III's avatar

^ Are you serious?

RabidWolf's avatar

Serious as a stroke.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well. I guess I gave you more credit than that. Now we know.

RabidWolf's avatar

Happy to disappoint. I’m still the same guy everybody seemed to like before they learned I’m Republican, Curious…

stanleybmanly's avatar

Who is everybody?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well….me! I love him! But his politics are messed up. IMO.

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