General Question

Pandora's avatar

Would you allow your female child to have to go through a genital exam to participate in sports?

Asked by Pandora (29163points) 3 weeks ago

This article has me fuming. I am so sick to death of the Republican party wanting to find any chance they can to treat women like freaking cattle to be poked and prodded because of their prejudices as an excuse. I know if I had a young daughter today and they insisted she go through a genital exam to join a sport I would not let her participate or I will sue the state. If a note from her birth certificate isn’t enough for them they can stuff it. All parents in that state should decline to let their sons or daughters play in any sport if this becomes a requirement. Funny enough boys don’t have to prove they are boys.article

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49 Answers

Dutchess_III's avatar

Absolute bullshit.

chyna's avatar

No. Fuck that.

Nomore_lockout's avatar

That is insane. The Repukelicans have completely lost it. And by the way, I did not mis spell that.

kritiper's avatar

Yes. The boys go through one. And if that was what my daughter wanted.

Pandora's avatar

@kritiper But what if your daughter didn’t want to go through that? Also there is a parents right to chose for their child. I didn’t have a vaginal exam until I was an adult and already married. I didn’t feel comfortable with the idea of showing my privates to someone I was not intimate with. Why isn’t the birth certificate enough? I understand a physical for checking your heart and general health but your vagina shouldn’t need to be witnessed if your birth certificate says female or male. If they insist on professional sports then a DNA test would be more accurate anyway.. No matter what I believe this is another attempt by Republicans to put women in their place. And the law being proposed doesn’t not make any such demands on boys.

gondwanalon's avatar

DNA test is good enough to determine what sex an athlete is.

Zaku's avatar

Totally lawyer time. Sue their asses into oblivion.

kritiper's avatar

@Pandora If the boys want to play sports, they have to go through with it. To balk because she’s a girl is natural. If a parent doesn’t like what the girl has to do but doesn’t say anything about what the boys go through, then they’re sexist. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. (All a part of growing up.)

Zaku's avatar

@kritiper The boys should sue too. “All a part of growing up”? No.

lastexit's avatar

No freaking way!!

Demosthenes's avatar

A physical exam before joining a sports team is quite common, but a specific “genital exam” to determine gender seems ridiculous, especially one created as part of the “war on trans people” launched by the GOP.

Pandora's avatar

@kritiper Both my children were in swim team. The only physical they needed was one from their doctor saying they were healthy enough to participate. There were no genital checks. My daughter swam on the girls team and my son swam on the boys team. My daughter had to get a wavier for her asthma, but the humidity in the pool was actually very good for her asthma. My son was also on track. I attended their appointments and none of them were invasive. They were general health. Heart and lungs. And checking joints and making sure they were up to date on shots.

JLeslie's avatar

No! Why isn’t the blood test enough? K-8 I wouldn’t even allow the blood test, probably not high school either. Are we talking K-12 or college? It wasn’t clear to me.

This is total bullshit. It’s hormones that gives men more strength over women to begin with, not their genitals. Plenty of people have genitals that are not clearly defined when they are born and some have surgery.

Keep your hands the hell off our girls. Just no.

I would think the girls can have their own doctor verify whatever needs to be verified, and do whatever tests that might be reasonable. If a test is even necessary. I’m not so sure any test is necessary.

I don’t like it.

Caravanfan's avatar

It’s a stunt. She’s in a losing race for reelection in the Senate and it’s a last ditch effort to win over votes from Doug Collins. Even if she really believes it (which she probably does), she knows it will never pass.

Pandora's avatar

@Caravanfan Maybe so. But I get so tired of people always wanting to be up woman privates and now they are thinking of doing the same to girls. I’m tired of women’s reproductive parts being targeted every couple of months. People keep saying they want the government to stay out of their business and now they want to even tell you that you have to take your child to get an unnecessary physical to participate in sports. I’m not talking about a regular health physical, but last I checked children don’t use their sex organs to play any sport. Like I have said and JLeslie has pointed out. Hormones is what make the difference. Not body parts. I pray she loses bad. I hate when men pull this crap and hate it more coming from a woman.

gorillapaws's avatar

Wedge issue designed to fracture the electorate who are growing increasingly more desperate as the pandemic drags on. It’s a manufactured controversy.

Caravanfan's avatar

Gorilla and I agree on this.

Pandora's avatar

@gorillapaws and @Caravanfan I hope you both are right. But I wish this nonsense would be gone already and people with common sense step up.

jca2's avatar

For those who are saying boys have to go through it, too, no, boys’ checks are usually the doctor taking a quick glance at their penis. For girls, it may be putting the girls on the table in stirrups and probing their vagina. A big difference between checking boys and checking girls.

elbanditoroso's avatar

The other question: Who does the checking? Will male coaches be examining the girls? Female coaches? Nurses? Doctors?

This is so fraught with the risk of lawsuits (and sexual predation, and illegal touching, etc.) that I can’t believe that anyone would want to touch this (pun intended).

hmmmmmm's avatar

Of course it’s a stunt. Many bills are introduced as resume builders, even if they don’t have a chance of passing. This particular bill is very on-brand for conservative Republicans, so having something like this in a Senator’s portfolio is helpful when needing to gather votes in particular regions.

It also serves the culture war narrative, which allows you to distract people while you rob them.

KNOWITALL's avatar

This is an issue taking place around the world, even in the Olympics (Chris Mosier.) It’s not just Republicans or the US. That being said, I would let my child decide for themselves if they were mentally prepared for the exam. Most teen females get their first exam and birth control as teens, so I don’t really see the issue as invasive, as it’s voluntary.

————————————————————————————————————-
The participation of transgender and transsexual individuals in competitive sports is a controversial issue, particularly where athletes who have gone through male puberty are notably successful in women’s sport, or represent a significant increased injury risk to women competitors.

Resistance to trans women competing in women’s sport generally focuses on physiological attributes such as height and weight, or performance metrics such as speed and strength — and whether sustained testosterone suppression can adequately reduce any natural advantages of male body characteristics within a given women’s sport. In many sports, teenage males can often match the performances of the best female professionals.

Access regulations requiring that trans athletes compete against athletes of the same assigned sex at birth and requiring sex verification testing have been used. Proponents of such regulations regard them as necessary to ensure fair competition, while opponents regard them as discriminatory.
........................................................................................................................................
In October 2019, World Athletics changed the testosterone limit for transgender competitors, setting it at 5 nmol/L, from the previous 10 nmol/L, in order to bring it in line with the DSD (intersex) regulations.[10] According to regulations from October 2019, in order for a trans woman to compete in the women’s category: “3.2.1 she must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female; 3.2.2 she must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel (on the balance of probabilities), in accordance with clause 4, that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5 nmol/L3 continuously for a period of at least 12 months; and 3.2.3 she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.”[11] World Athletics also has rules for intersex/differences of sex development (DSD) athletes. DSD athletes will be subjected to specific rules if they have XY male chromosomes, testes rather than ovaries, have circulating testosterone within the typical male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L), and are androgen-sensitive so that their body makes use of that testosterone. World Athletics requires that any such athlete must reduce their blood testosterone level to 5 nmol/L or lower for a six-month period before becoming eligible for track running events from 400 metres to the mile run in international competition, though World Athletics publicly remains open to extending this to other events based on new scientific study. World Athletics created these rules as a way to ensure fair competition in the women’s category.[12]

_Wiki

MrGrimm888's avatar

It seems absurd.

jca2's avatar

@KNOWITALL: The OP’s article discusses “school sports” whereas your Wiki quote discusses world athletics. For a girl to play school sports on a school level and need an invasive exam in order to participate seems crazy.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 The UK has done studies trans in school sports, too.

I understand most of us are US based here, but this is a much broader conversation than the southern US. The world is trying to find solutions to some of the issues that have arisen. Not only on behalf of the sports organizations, but the trans folks themselves and their rights. That’s my point.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

jca2's avatar

My point is not to impose on the rights of trans people or any people, but what about the rights of a 9 year old girl who just wants to join the school soccer team?

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL “The world is trying to find solutions to some of the issues that have arisen.”

Think about how absurd this statement is in the times we live in.

Over a million people are dead in less than a year with no signs of slowing down. Millions of people will likely have long-term health problems from COVID-19 that could cost trillions. The global economy is on the brink. We’re on the verge of a massive eviction/homeless/unemployment crisis. Many small businesses are closing down for good. Our healthcare system is inadequate, too expensive, unavailable for many, and overly dependent on a fragile distribution of international suppliers. Our planet is becoming more and more fucked every year. Our infrastructure is decaying. The younger generations are likely to have a worse quality of life than their parents for the first time in modern US history (entire US history?). Higher education is increasingly unattainable and unaffordable. Our debt is out of control due largely to (bipartisan) financing of obscene military spending increases and tax cuts for corporations/the 1%. We’re still in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gitmo still has prisoners in it from nearly 20 years ago that have never seen the inside of a courtroom. Our companies are continuing to merge into ever-larger conglomerates, reducing choice and innovation in the marketplace with no enforcement of anti-trust (by either party) in sight.

…But ignore all of that stuff.

Instead let’s focus on the important issues like, what if a trans woman competed in a high school girl’s soccer match and had an unfair advantage because of her elevated testosterone? We should definitely mandate a compulsory pussy-inspection for all high school girls (and younger?) who want to participate in sports to address this concern immediately!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws Feel better now?

The fact is, this is still a GLOBAL conversation, even amongst everything else going on, yes.

I mean if you want to dumb it all the way down and just blame southern Republicans in the US, feel free, but as the links show, many countries are still trying to find ways to handle it appropriately for both the organization, fairness to players and if you read the studies, the psychological components.

hmmmmmm's avatar

^ I usually love the move towards looking globally. But in this case, we don’t necessarily need to. This is playing out in the US, and has implications for citizens of the US. So, brushing it off as “it’s a global thing” isn’t going to fly. Additionally, if you were to make a global argument here, it would need to be made. You haven’t done so.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’m assuming you agree before puberty this is a nonissue.

I agree with you that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with when we are talking about adults competing. I think it’s such a complex issue. What about women who naturally have high testosterone than most women? They have an edge in many sports. I honestly don’t know how to solve it all. For sure the issue of transgender makes it all more difficult. I would think if they take hormones then that’s as good as being born the other gender, but they don’t all take hormones.

I really don’t see how it’s easily solved.

In school though, if in high school they want to address the issue it seems to me the student’s own doctor filling out paperwork should be enough. Why would an internal exam be necessary at all? Even by the student’s own doctor?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie If we’re just referring to the US South, it’s so complex from the social and religious aspects as well as legal aspects, that appear to be following professional athlete organizations. To me, they are obviously going to make it uncomfortable, as they want no male body parts around their princess’ locker rooms. It makes perfect sense, if you think about it from their perspective. These are the same people who threw fits about the Unisex bathrooms, remember. No surprise to me at all.

gorillapaws's avatar

@KNOWITALL ”...if you want to dumb it all the way down and just blame southern Republicans in the US…”

They certainly deserve plenty of blame, but there’s more than enough to go around. The point is simply that wedge issues like these are promoted into the national spotlight as a distraction to divide Americans. The neoliberal Dems do the same thing (e.g. anti-BDS bills, prisoners’ voting rights, reparations). Most Americans agree on so many basic issues that are being ignored by both parties, and issues like these are launched into the public discourse to create the illusion of deep political division and make politicians appear to be getting things done.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@gorillapaws I often agree with you and this is no exception BUT the religious Right also has a lot of negative feelings in regard to this particular subject and many refuse to budge since it plays into their religious beliefs.
I mean we have plenty of people here who understand why LGBTQ’s move out of the South and Middle, it is what it is, at this point in history. Many of the Catholic haters came out due to the Pope sanctioning SSM last week. You should have seen the comments, yikes.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL Honestly, I wasn’t thinking about it in terms of the South, because eventually it would go up through the courts, my mind was more on the US and as you mentioned the world.

Demosthenes's avatar

@KNOWITALL He sanctioned civil unions, not SSM, but yeah, watch some of those Catholic-haters be the same people who were concerned about anti-Catholic bias toward Amy Coney Barrett. Affiliation with Catholics is opportunistic, that’s for sure.

@JLeslie I agree it’s a complex issue. I don’t think there is a good solution. I think gender separation in sports is important for some sports and doing away with it isn’t a solution. Women and men are different physically and it’s absurd to pretend that they’re not. Of course there are always outliers. High testosterone females do exist and this seems to be an outlier that most are willing to accept, though not all do (high testosterone females are frequently accused of being men or doping). It seems unfair to say that trans athletes simply can’t compete in gender-separated sports since they don’t fit neatly into either camp, but maybe that’s the way it has to be. I don’t think we’re about to divide sports by testosterone levels.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Something is missing from this discussion. I would think that parents would have some say in whether (and who) is feeling up their daughter. I cannot imagine fathers and mothers readily going along with this stunt. A few, maybe, but not the majority. Parents aren’t going to agree to have their daughters ‘examined’ to satisfy a couple of republicans.

jca2's avatar

@elbanditoroso: Which is true, many parents won’t, but then little Sally just can’t play soccer.

Zaku's avatar

Not in the backward places where and when there’s such a law that reflects the idiotic xenophobia of some people, anyway.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I would think the Southern religious people you speak of would also have a problem with their young daughter being subject to a pelvic exam. Are they not? That’s surprising to me. I lived in the South, but I have no clear perception of it.

I kind of understand why some religious people have no problem subjecting pregnant girls to an exam, but the girl wanting to play sports could easily be a 15 year old virgin who has zero reason to have to deal with a doctor looking at her crotch, much less touching it. Religious people are ok with that?

hmmmmmm's avatar

Larry Nassar approves of this bill.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie I’m sure many would have an issue with that, as well, in the chastity ring culture (my perception of that particular culture, I know you don’t agree.)

If they had to pick between a doctor and a unknown trans that may have a dangling part around the girls showering, we both know they’d choose the doctor.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I honestly don’t know what to think.

In the past when I have considered the issue of trans competing in sports, I hadn’t even considered the locker room at all. I’ve always thought about it in terms of is it fair regarding the competition. There is a reason some sports don’t have men competing against women and it doesn’t have to do with genitals, it’s about strength and statute and hormone levels that contribute to those things.

LadyMarissa's avatar

The question has been asked many times IF Senator Loeffler is trans herself. Actually @Caravanfan is correct in that she is about to lose her job & she’s getting desperate for anything that could possibly garner her some votes. Bad press is better than NO press at all!!!

Pandora's avatar

@KNOWITALL Not all sports require them to share an open locker room or any locker room. When my son ran track, he would run track and come home after the competition. Most school sports is done after school and most of the time they rather go home to shower and change. If a parent is concerned they will usually tell their kid to change at home. My son and daughter would have put on their bathing suits before going to swim practice and because it ran late, they would just throw some sweats on and go change and wash at home. Also they felt the locker rooms often looked unsanitary.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Ok. Yes. There are physical differences, with variables, when it comes to gender.

However. Unless it’s a professional sport, I don’t see a reason to “check under the hood.”
I just cannot justify, such clarification, at a level that this proposes.

As mentioned above, some females produce more testosterone than others.

So. Now. There is a slippery territory. Are we to adjust not only weight/gender classes, but hormone classes?

kritiper's avatar

They should outlaw that old practice of getting naked and showering together. Very traumatic!

MrGrimm888's avatar

“I went to a basketball camp, at a well known university. I was probably 11, or 12 years old.
At the end of each day, we all went to an Olympic swimming pool, on campus….

At the end of the day, we all had to shower, and get into dry clothes, in the male locker room.

I felt VERY uncomfortable, there. There was no privacy. And. Essentially. There were the kids from my camp, and much older college students, walking around naked.

At first, I avoided being around other guys, naked.
However. My camp counselor, caught me one day, and he ordered me to get naked, and shower, before changing clothes.

Looking back at the way things were handled, I think my counselor was a creep. I think he wanted to see naked boys, and young men.

I never really told anyone about it. In hindsight, had I explained it to my father, he would have probably beaten my counselor, to death…...

I just don’t think that children, should be forced to go around naked. Even amongst their own gender… It’s absolutely traumatic…..

kruger_d's avatar

Boys are checked for hernias or other health conditions, not to confirm that the are male.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Yeah. I had the “cough and turn,” annually. Not fun.

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