General Question

AmberM88's avatar

Is this date rape? Would it stand in court?

Asked by AmberM88 (93 points ) February 7th, 2011

This guy came over, he asked if I wanted him to bring any alcohol, I said yes. He brought two Four Lokos with him. We started drinking, eventually we both finished our cans. He wanted to have sex, I didn’t really want to. I never said yes or no. He started kissing me, then carried me to my bed. He started taking off my clothes and went down on me. He took off his pants and was about to enter me without a condom. I told him absolutely not, get a condom on first. He resisted for like 5 minutes, promising he would pull out. I wouldn’t budge though, so he went to his car to get a condom. While he was gone, I got dressed and went to sit on my couch since I didn’t want to have sex. He came back and was a bit annoyed that I was dressed, so he took me back to my room, undressed me again, took off his pants and put the condom on. He was on top for about five minutes, then he turned me around because he wanted to do a different position. He started thrusting, and then that’s when I blacked out… I can recall very little past this point.

The next thing I remember, I was still on all fours (or on my stomach, not sure which), and I heard him say, “See, I told you I would pull out.” I was so angry… but sadly I was too wasted to do anything. I just threw up and passed out instead. The next day, I asked him what happened, he said the condom broke, but he was way too horny so he just finished with out one and pulled out. He promised I wasn’t pregnant, but I got mad and said I wasn’t just scared of getting pregnant, I was also scared to death of getting an STD. (And to make matters worse, he said he was a “pro” at pulling out, he’s been doing it since he was 19… he’s 23 now. I don’t even want to know how many girls he’s had unprotected sex with) He says he gets tested and is clean, but I don’t trust him. I know for sure now that I’m not pregnant, and so far I haven’t had any signs of STDs. I am getting tested this week to know for sure though.

Was it date rape? And if I took this to court, would I have a solid case?

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176 Answers

troubleinharlem's avatar

I’m very sorry that this happened to you – he sounds like a complete jerk.

Anyway, did you ever explicitly say that you did not want to have sex with him, or did you just think it?

But again, I’m sorry. I’ll be praying for you, okay? (:

Ivan's avatar

I’m certainly not going to defend this guy or condone anything he did, but you certainly contributed to this situation and didn’t do yourself any favors. You most likely wouldn’t have a case.

incendiary_dan's avatar

It quite clearly is. I really don’t see how any court wouldn’t side with you on that one. I don’t see any sort of consent mentioned anywhere in your account. The fact that you were probably unconscious for part of it should definitely raise alarm bells, too.

Personally, I’d get some very large friends to kick his ass, too. Assholes like this should have their legs broken, minimum.

@Ivan Victim blaming is for losers.

SmashTheState's avatar

Depending where you live the answer may be different, but the sad fact is that in most cases, the police are very reluctant to press charges in cases of date rape. The best people to answer this question would be in a rape crisis centre. I don’t know where you live, so I can’t give you a phone number, but if you Google “rape crisis” and your town’s name, you should find something.

One thing to remember is that civil court has a lower burden of proof than criminal court. If you can’t get justice through the police, then civil court may be the way to go.

In the mean time, I recommend you see if there is a womyn’s centre anywhere nearby, and whether they offer self-defence courses. If nothing else, it will give you confidence that you can handle it if the situation should ever occur again.

(PS: Don’t listen to the blame-the-victim chorus you’re going to get here. There are lots of people who believe every word you say and find it totally credible.)

Ivan's avatar

@incendiary_dan

I never said she wasn’t a victim, nor did I blame her for anything. The simple fact is that rape is almost impossible to prove.

Besides, if anything is “for losers”, it’s encouraging physical violence.

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VS's avatar

I think the first thing that any good defense attorney would ask you on the witness stand, is why, when he left, did you not just lock your door and not allow him back in after he left. I am not blaming, but you were very vague about telling HIM you didn’t want to have sex. If you had your wits about you enough to get dressed, you could have certainly stopped him from the follow-up. I don’t think you would have a very strong case. Please consider not drinking so much next time. Again, I am NOT placing blame, but hope you will avoid placing yourself in such a dangerous situation in the future.

Seaofclouds's avatar

Did you go to the hospital or doctor’s afterwards to report what happened? You said you know you aren’t pregnant, so I’m guessing this happened a while ago, how long ago was it?

You could try to press charges against him, but I don’t know how much would happen. A lot of it depends on where you live and how long ago it was (I’m guessing it was recent enough that it wouldn’t pass the statute of limitations, but that’s something you would need to find out about).

Personally, while I find what happened to be really shitty, I could see the fact that you insisted that he put on a condom and that you never told him “no” as things that could go against you in your claim (meaning his lawyer (if he got one) could use those things against you). It sucks, but that’s what lawyers do.

To me, rape means you said “no” and he did it anyway. I am sorry you feel used and that you don’t know fully what happened and that he ended up inside you without a condom, but without saying “no”, I find it hard to call it rape. Sexual assault though, is a definite in my opinion and something totally different (which you could also look into).

The_Idler's avatar

So… Just before you were actually going to go at it, you said “No, put a condom on first” ...which he did.

And then… did you actually change your request after that to “No, absolutely no sex”, or did you just make him take your clothes off twice, before he started?

Fucked up situation, but alcohol is a fucked up drug…

The_Idler's avatar

I mean, I am in NO WAY defending this guy’s right to do any of what he did, I’m just asking because, if we’re talking legally here, you implied consent with the condition of using a condom, which he…kinda did. If you didn’t explicitly say NO after that… I don’t know what you can do about him being an arsehole and carrying on without a condom =/

I think… if you really want to get back at him for it, the law isn’t going to be on your side.
Think of other ways, if you must…

MrItty's avatar

I don’t see how “not without a condom” can mean anything other than “yes with a condom”. That’s not rape. That’s just a series of poor decisions on your part.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

Yes, it’s date rape. No, you don’t really have a case. You should, but you don’t – even the most “black and white”, open-and-shut rape cases are often turned to “gray”. I’d suggest you contact your local rape hotline/crisis center for more help – both in terms of legal action and emotional health.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Sounds like it to me. And I’m with @papayalily on the rest of it. Our culture is not on your side.

El_Cadejo's avatar

While I do feel bad for you for having to go through this experience and with such an asshole guy, I would still say no, its not.

According to your story you never resisted at all, at any point. You didnt fight him taking the clothes off, you refused no condom sex but allowed him to get a condom and then proceed to have sex with you and remember quite a bit of it before the blacking out and still then at any point didnt try and resist it.

Just a series of bad decisions because you were drunk and four loco is a bitch.

But you asked him to bring the alcohol in the first place which he also drank.

MyNewtBoobs's avatar

Going to point out – you cannot legally consent to sex under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

jonsblond's avatar

I’m really sorry this happened to you. If you had told him no, then yes it is considered rape. Drunk or not. ugh, some people :/ Once you were dressed, and he took you back in the room unwillingly, that is rape (if you said no). Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like you have a case.

@suzie271 I was drunk when someone came into my dorm room while I was sleeping (passed out) and raped me. I told the person to stop, several times. That’s my fault because I was drunk?

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incendiary_dan's avatar

Trying to narrow down the definition of rape to deny womens’ experiences, and the assumption that men have the right to access a woman’s body just because she doesn’t say no is basically the personification of rape culture.

Pacificism is Pathological, and anyone who thinks womens’ struggles against patriarchy and rape culture don’t constitute a legitimate resistance are out of touch.

WestRiverrat's avatar

@uberbatman I disagree. Depending on the state, the fact that she was impaired by the alcohol would render her unable to give consent. It is rape, but I don’t think she has enough evidence to successfully take it to court.

@AmberM88 Sounds to me like someone needs to visit your ‘friend’ with some pruning shears.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I firmly believe that verbally saying ‘no’ isn’t the only way to say no to rape and doesn’t have to be the only so called legitimate marker.

The_Idler's avatar

I don’t know know where this is true, but if it is true, that intoxication makes legal consent “impossible”, does that make all intoxicated sex rape? Every night, millions of couples get together, share a bottle of wine, and then rape eachother?

Also, how can you be considered unable to legally consent, but still able to decide whether you want to have sex or not (as the man clearly did, there being where the blame lies)!?
As the man was also intoxicated, surely the same logic means he also did not consent!?

El_Cadejo's avatar

@WestRiverrat sooo let me get this straight, according to that, in those states, one could then meet a woman at a bar, her give consent, take her home, and then the next day she decides its date rape? That doesnt make sense.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir the only real sign of no was putting the clothes back on but didnt resist according to the story, going back into the room at all. Also “not without a condom” implies its ok with a condom. How is it she was coherent enough to realize he didnt have a condom and tell him such but not tell him she didnt want to have sex?

WestRiverrat's avatar

I don’t write the laws, I am just telling you what they are in some of the places I have worked.

And yes @uberbatman that has happened. People have decided the next day, or even the next week to go to the police and report drunk sex as rape.

jca's avatar

If this got so far as a courtroom, the defense lawyer would rip you apart as far as how drunk you were and your recollection of the events under the influence.

Not saying I agree with that, but that’s what will happen. I think just leave it as a lesson learned.

@incendiary_dan: yes, physical violence is an appropriate response to rape. However, kicking the guy’s ass after the fact is not self defense, it is pre-meditated. It is planning and going back and finding the guy and then kicking his ass. This would not be helpful to the ass-kicking person when the cops come. The ass-kicker would not get away with telling the officers “but this guy raped my friend.”

Sayd_Whater's avatar

If usually you say no and there’s no way. If most of the times you control the situation and when you say no, you mean no, so…I really think you weren’t yourself that night!
And if you are concerned about not remember everything, and not even being able to properly say no… Not being able to lock the door when he went to the car…and probably opened it again when you already knew what he wanted regardless of what you didn’t want…
My guess…
I’m thinking that maybe he used drugs on you, and maybe that’s why you weren’t able to defend yourself and passed out… You should get tested for everything and report that jerk!!!!
Only a court will decide the rest!!!

The_Idler's avatar

@WestRiverrat I can only see how that could work, if only one person was intoxicated…

Otherwise, they’d both be ‘incapable’ of consent, and so be “raping each other” which makes no sense…
send them both to prison!?

WasCy's avatar

Welcome to Fluther. That’s a hell of an introduction!

It appears on its face, having heard your side of the story, to be non-consensual sex, at least to the point that you were passed out for some of it. But he gets to tell his story in court, too, and unless he’s the biggest moron in the world, how likely is he to say “she said no” and “she was passed out in the end”?

According to him, you will have been the most willing and hot-to-trot partner he’s ever had.

Since you didn’t explicitly refuse him sex, and couldn’t prove that you had even if you did, and he apparently didn’t force himself on you and injure you, and you let him back into the house for a second attempt after you refused only “unprotected” sex the first time, then no, you have next to no case at all. You’d cost yourself a lot of time and money and aggravation for no return, other than the satisfaction of costing him a lot of time, money and embarrassment as well.

The fact that the condom broke is not a factor. Condoms break; it’s a fact of life. In fact, as you present the ‘case’, this seems to be your biggest complaint about the incident. The district attorney will tell you (if you’re thinking about a criminal case) that the fact of the condom breaking or not breaking and your anxiety about whether or not you were exposed to disease from him is a non-factor in your argument. (A criminal case is probably out of the question anyway if you didn’t call the police as soon as you discovered the violation and agree to a rape investigation. A civil attorney should tell you the same thing unless he’s a poor attorney simply trying to drum up business, because win or lose, he’d be paid for his time.)

If I were you I’d look at my own performance in this drama: You invited a guy into your home that you appear to be somewhat ambivalent about, and allowed him to introduce alcohol into the situation. You had a very casual attitude about whether or not to have sex with a guy that you don’t seem to care particularly much for, and don’t know all that well. You passed out, and found out later that he’s the kind of guy to whom that doesn’t seem to matter, because he’ll take what he wants anyway.

Whether you should manage to successfully prosecute him in a criminal or civil case doesn’t change the fact that you, all by yourself, made a series of bad decisions, starting with an overly casual attitude about sex in the first place. You could look at this as a great wake-up call to change your own life and behavior. It’s your choice.

sinscriven's avatar

There’s enough holes in the story that a decent defense attorney would shred to bits: The implied consent with the condom, the more “meh” response than any sort of concrete ‘no’, no force or resistance, the fact that he left the premises and was allowed in again even though anyone fearing for their life would have used that opportunity to lock him out, and then the whole both of you inebriated thing, which could be used to either invalidate testimony since it can’t be trusted, or prove that there was enough coherence to be able to consent (i.e “not without a condom). Drugging through something like roofies could be an argument, but you would have to have reported to the cops and been tested for it immediately after that happened. Otherwise, there’s no proof. It’s all just accounts of two very drunk people against each other and their recollections come into question because of their altered status.

incendiary_dan's avatar

@jca That’s just an argument about why not to get caught. Which I dig. I believe in retributive violence, not just defensive, particularly in cases as this. I won’t go beyond that, because this is general.

BhacSsylan's avatar

This thread makes me sick. Almost literally. God damn people. And I though fluther was better then this.

Let’s take a step back, why don’t we? Let’s take a case of a guy who goes into a bar. A skeezy guy starts hanging around him, he brushes it off but isn’t overly concerned. He has too much to drink, and when it’s time to go, skeezy guy offers him a ride home. Being severely impaired, he forgets his earlier reticence, and says sure. In the car, he blacks out. He wakes up naked on his front lawn, hell, possibly dead.

Now, will a single one of you say that that was not just robbery or murder? Because that’s what you’re saying here! The guy never said he didn’t want to be robbed! Implied Consent! Bullshit, and you all know it. Poor decision, sure, but that doesn’t change the crime.

Unfortunately, the answer to your second question is no, it wouldn’t hold up in court, because the jury would be composed of people who feel very much like the apologists above. I’m very, very sorry.

[Edit] And, of course, we’re missing the part where she said yes. But, of course, there’s no reason you should get explicit consent from a sexual partner! That’s totally not fashionable. You borrow someone’s car without getting a ‘yes’ and it’s stealing. But sex? Whatev’s man.

I’m going to go try and wash this foul taste from my mouth now.

WasCy's avatar

@BhacSsylan

The jury would have the opportunity to hear both sides of this story. Undoubtedly the other story will not be exactly the same. Even if it is ‘exactly the same’, I question whether there’s even a 50–50 chance for conviction of ‘rape’.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@WasCy I agree, and that’s why I’m so angry/sad. I’m not saying the legal advice here is wrong. It’s just the repeated cry of “sorry, that wasn’t rape at all!” that sicken me.

The_Idler's avatar

@BhacSsylan What, you mean: a guy, who has another visit his house and requests he brings alcohol, which they both consume until drunk. And then the other guy wants to spend all the first guy’s money at the shop… which the first guy aint so keen about, but the ‘skeezy’ guy goes to get his wallet, and the first guy says “not unless you bring the wallet back”, while putting it back into his pocket.
The skeezy guy agrees, takes the wallet back out of the first guy’s pocket, and comes back later, after spending the money, waking up the now passed-out first guy, by apologizing for losing the wallet after-all!?

Arsehole? Yes
Theif? Not legally, I’m afraid.

bkcunningham's avatar

I’m not referring to this particular person’s story. I only have the one side. Regardless. What bothers me, as a woman, is the easy way we throw around the word rape. To know how far we have come in American society with the prosecution of rape cases, and with the stigma women have fought with telling authorities about being raped. The ease with which it seems to me we want to say rape and jump on a bandwagon in defense of everyone who throws the word out there, regardless of the circumstances really angers me. Whether you realize it or not, it takes a giant step back for women.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Yes, rape, not allowed. Don’t go to the police, get your friends to kick his ass.

EDIT:

To elaborate, you did initially offer implied consent by insisting he use a condom. However, you withdrew that consent by putting your clothes back on and sitting on the couch. While you may again have offered it by allowing him to take you back upstairs, the rape occured when he took off the condom in spite of you having asked him to use one, and when he continued to have sex with you although you were blacked out. This is nonconsensual sex—rape.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@bkcunningham I completely agree 100%. I sometimes feel like people say “rape” for things that are actually “sexual assault, but not rape”. Yes there is a difference and while I get the personal feelings of violation are the same for the person that experiences, they are two different things.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@The_Idler Okay, you want to get into the nitty gritty? Sure. Except your case isn’t it. This time, the guy gets the wallet, almost leaves after the comment, but forgets he’s wearing no pants. The first guy grabs the wallet while he’s out, and when other guys comes back he doesn’t say anything, but holds the wallet to him. Skeezy guy takes it out of his hand and says “Sorry, too late bucko” and leaves. That’s still theft. Good job there.

Edit: And, just to say, considering the possible life-ruining consequences of rape, as opposed to stealing a wallet, don’t the think the standards should be a little higher?

Edit edit: @Seaofclouds and @bkcunningham be that as it may, this currently is currently about sex without consent. That’s rape.

Edit edit edit: Edit

Seaofclouds's avatar

@BhacSsylan I’m sorry, but I don’t see how, “not without a condom” and then allowing the guy to come back in the house with a condom is without consent. If she would’ve said no or done anything at all to resist him, that would be her saying no, but telling him he had to get a condom first and then letting him back in after he left to get it, sounds like consent to me and certainly would be enough for reasonable doubt (which is the standard for the judicial system) in my opinion.

It sucks, it’s a shitty situation, and I can see a case for sexual assault with the further details, but not necessarily rape. I’m sorry if you don’t agree and I’d prefer to agree to disagree than further derail this conversation.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

Another thing: this is a question that’s all-too-often dismissed by my feminist friends, and perhaps rightly, but it’s worth asking: why did you not simply refuse to have sex with him? Clearly this asshole bears the brunt of the responsibility for what happened to you, but, at the risk of sounding callous and having my head bitten off by others here, you bear some as well. It’s your right as a human being to NOT get raped, but it’s also your responsibility as a human being to do your very best to prevent it from happening. I hate to say it, but you didn’t.

nikipedia's avatar

In our culture we send a lot of very mixed messages to both men and women about sex. I am guessing this guy would be shocked and disturbed to learn that you feel like he raped you—he might feel like, as a man, he is “supposed to” take the initiative sexually.

But that doesn’t change the fact that you feel violated (or at least you seem to, if I’m reading this correctly).

Is the correct response to that feeling of violation to take legal action against this guy? I don’t think so. He screwed up, and he should know that—by you telling him, not by you prosecuting him.

I think the real question is: how is this going to inform your future relationships? You have gotten some heat on this thread for the decisions you made. Are you going to continue to be passive in your sexual relationships? Or are you going to learn from this that you need to communicate what you do and don’t want? Is this experience going to make you feel like a victim, or empower you to make the changes you need to in your relationships?

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Sorry, kids, just like many above me…some of the implied ignorance in this very thread is making it a trigger for me as it did for others…Fluther is better than just any old slice of this fucked up society but it certainly doesn’t shine on these kinds of matters. Perhaps it’s about education, I don’t know. Perhaps it’s about my gut reaction to that story and my gut doesn’t lie – what happened there was problematic, red flags all over and we’re still talking about whether someone had to say a firm ‘no’.

LuckyGuy's avatar

First, I’d admit to myself that I was stupid to get so drunk that I lost control. I make a solemn promise to myself to make better choices in the future.
Then, I would tell all my friends what a scumbag piece of slime he is. I would post it on Facebook, as a warning to any other girls he might go out with. I’d have friends start a Facebook page with your story. If one other person steps forward with a similar experience I’d take him to court.
He took advantage. Now it is your turn to fight back. Make it so he can never “date” another girl again. Go get him!

jca's avatar

She was sober enough to put her clothes on. Was she not sober enough to lock the door? Was she not sober enough to tell him when he came back to please leave? She does not specify saying no when he came back after retrieving the condom from the car. He carried her to the room. Did she say no then?

The other side of the coin: she was so drunk that during this encounter she passed out. If she was so drunk, how could she accurately remember anything that happened?

The next day when she came to, did she go to the hospital for a rape kit? Did she go to the police to report it? What evidence is there?

These are all things that are going to come up. These are all ways lawyers use to disparage women on the stand. Does it suck? yes. I am a woman and I don’t think it’s right. Would an incident like this, if it happened to me, make me rethink my behavior, my drinking, and my actions? yes. Have things like this happened to me when I was younger and drinking? yes. Live and learn.

MacBean's avatar

I’m deeply disgusted and disappointed by how many people are victim blaming and saying this wasn’t rape.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@Seaofclouds Even if that were fine, the fact that she was clothed and back out when he came back showed she wasn’t interested, and he persisted. And, the lack of a condom at the end is just crazy.

@quarkquarkquark It’s called rape culture. Women are taught to be passive, and men to be agressive. And women are taught that if they say no, they’re a bitch, a prude, a cock-teasing whore. That kind of societal programming is pretty hard to break. That’s why the ‘no’ shouldn’t be the indicator. It should be the ‘yes’.

@worriedguy That sounds like pretty good advice to me.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, I can see from your handle and postings that you are cut from the same admirable feminist cloth as many of my friends, but I want to note that I, at least, and I don’t think many others, are attempting to assert that “unless you say ‘no’ it’s okay.” Clearly, she shouldn’t have to say no. It should be obvious, and I am sure it was, that she did not want to have sex. However, when things progress beyond a point of comfort, you need to try a different tack—to be more forceful. Just because she shouldn’t have to say no doesn’t me she just shouldn’t. “Rape culture”, @BhacSsylan, is an explanation, but not an invalidation. More needed to have been done.

Regardless, he needs his ass kicked!

chyna's avatar

I don’t think I’d want the “war of the words” posting on Facebook might start. He might come up with some really vile stuff that people would belive.

jonsblond's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir and @MacBean I agree. This brings back so many bad memories for me and confirms my reasoning why I never reported my rape. NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE ME IF I DID TELL. sigh

BhacSsylan's avatar

@quarkquarkquark Well, you asked for an explanation.

quarkquarkquark's avatar

@BhacSsylan—thanks. I think that’s what I meant.

WasCy's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir

I’m curious about your reaction. What’s the implied ignorance that you see in the thread?

I think most posters are telling her the specific answer to her question: “No, you don’t have much of a case.” After that there’s a lot of advice about changing one’s own attitude, as well as some irresponsible advice, I think, to enact some kind of ‘vigilante justice’.

I agree that red flags are waving and the story is ‘problematic’ in many ways, for the behavior of both participants. But I think all of the advice that says “take charge of your own life” is spot on. That advice is always spot on.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m not in any way saying she has to verbally just say “no”. I’m saying that telling him he had to get a condom first could be seen as consent and without any other action from her that really says she does not want to have sex, it’s hard for me to say, yes this is 100% rape without a doubt. From what she says, while she did not want to have sex, she never told him that, instead, she told him to get a condom (which to me is saying yes, because she telling him that he had to get a condom to have sex and then let him back in after getting the condom). I’m sorry if that bothers you and you find that to be ignorant, but it’s how I feel. If at any point she would have refused to let him take her clothes off, said ‘stop’, ‘i changed my mind’, ‘i don’t want to do this’, pushed him away, or anything else that could have been seen as her trying to stop him, I’d change my mind, but she didn’t mention any of those things.

MacBean's avatar

”... and without any other action from her that really says she does not want to have sex…”

You mean like getting dressed and leaving the bedroom?

bkcunningham's avatar

@AmberM88 it must be a strange feeling to post something so intimate and then see so many comments. I wish you would say something else. Please, defend yourself or give us some of your thoughts.

jca's avatar

I guess ultimately to answer the question and only answer the question, is this date rape and would it stand in court – only a lawyer in your state could answer that one. The rest of what we’re writing to this very controversial topic is really just our opinions. I’m sure the law is different in each state and therefore, what stands in one state does not stand in another.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@WasCy Why are you curious? My reaction isn’t extraordinary. When someone comes to you with a story like the OP, your first response shouldn’t be the extra vague ‘take charge of your life’ before figuring out what went wrong in terms of consent. I know a lot of us said you don’t have much of a case (as if that isn’t maddening enough) but a lot of others of us are only to eager to first say ‘you should have said no’ and then say ‘he needs his ass kicked” (which I don’t advocate for, btw). @Seaofclouds I have no idea why you are apologizing.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@MacBean She got dressed and left the bedroom because he had to get a condom (for all he knows). Once again, I’m really not trying to argue the point, but it could be seen as she did it because he had to go out to get the condom. Without knowing every detail of what was going on in her mind, it could be taken many ways. When she let him back in, she does not mention in any way that she tried to tell him she didn’t want the sex after he came back in with the condom, so the last thing he heard from her was that he could have sex if he got a condom.

Like I said, it’s definitely assault, I just have a hard time saying it’s definitely rape.

jonsblond's avatar

@AmberM88 You may not have legal support, but there are many of us here for emotional support if you need it.

jca's avatar

My question for @AmberM88 is how does she remember what happened if she was so drunk she passed out shortly after? Also what did she say when he returned from the car? Did she say no, or did she say nothing? If she did not want to be with him, why did she not lock the door and/or tell him to please leave.

incendiary_dan's avatar

I’m really saddened not only that we live in a culture in which someone has to write Rape Prevention Tips for Men, but that I apparently need to point it out for both men and women (and other gendered people). Rape is more than just sex after saying no.

MacBean's avatar

@incendiary_dan ”(and other gendered people)” Thank you for including me. It’s nice to be remembered. You’re awesome. :D

jca's avatar

@incendiary_dan: @AmberM88‘s question related to the legal aspect, not the cultural aspect.

roundsquare's avatar

A few things here.

1) In some states, this may well be rape. Some states require some sort of physical force before its rape. Other states use a “no means no” rule. Still others use a “silence means yes” rule. And some, though very few, use a “silence means no” rule. I.e. the guy needs positive, though not necessarily verbal, confirmation before he is allowed to have sex with the woman.

2) Please don’t do anything that might get you into legal trouble. Setting him up to get beat up, etc… might just do that. Be careful. You’re already in a tough spot, don’t make it worse on yourself.

3) Even if, on the facts you’ve given us, it is legally rape, you still have a rough road ahead if you want to prosecute the guy. First, you might not win. Second, you’ll have to recount your story over and over again, in great detail, to people who’s primary goal isn’t to help you. Just think about how much worse it will be to go through this if you lose. I’m not saying you should forget about it, but just think about it. Find a help group or something and have them help you with this decision.

That said…

@incendiary_dan What do you mean? Are you saying that rape is any sort of non-consentual sex? (I’m just trying to clarify).

@everyone concerned about the consent issue: There are many cases where consent is much shadier than this and it wasn’t considered rape.

kenmc's avatar

After reading every comment on this thread, my head asplode.

To me, this is basically someone saying, “Me and a guy did something dumb and he violated me. Do I have legal recourse?” The whole conversation has been boiled down to banal reiterations of what “rape” means.

Now to answer the question at hand so I don’t get modded: I don’t think your argument would stand in court.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
incendiary_dan's avatar

@jca It might have been initially/mostly about legal aspects, much of the commentary has been purile idiocy about defining rape, re-inforcing rape culture, and finding ways to disregard this woman’s experience.

@roundsquare Yes. That’s what I’m saying.

Otherwise, I’m going to just patiently await potential input from my feminist allies which, after having recovered from being triggered by this conversation, will hopefully have some constructive input (which I’m sure the majority of you will find some way to disregard).

augustlan's avatar

[mod says] Let’s focus on the topic at hand: Is this date rape? Would it stand up in court?

Please take all side issues to an appropriate thread.

AmberM88's avatar

Thank you all for your responses so far, I really needed some input. In response to questions: I never verbally said “No”. I just thought it. When he came back in the house, I was pretending to be asleep on the couch. When he “woke” me up and brought me back into the room, I kept giving him a ”...do I have to?” kind of look, and my body language was very sluggish and reluctant. But I never physically resisted or vocalized my thoughts. (which, I do realize is a problem, I very much need to work on being assertive) The state I live in is Georgia. I wouldn’t go as far to say that he was drunk, in fact, even he himself said he was just buzzed. He knew exactly what he was doing. I am not sure why I am able to remember some things. I don’t even know why I blacked out, came to (though very very hazy) for about five or ten minutes, then passed out completely. My therapist says that everybody metabolizes alcohol differently. I am also very much a lightweight, and I had a whole four lokos can, plus a bit of his, within about an hour or less.

I do take responsibility for my part, I put myself in the situation by making poor choices. But I do feel extremely violated and taken advantage of. I did not give him permission to have unprotected sex, nor would I have had sex with him if I was sober. In fact, before we started drinking, we were watching a movie. He patted the spot next to him on the love seat and told me to sit down. We would’ve have been uncomfortably close, and I knew what would happen after that. I scoffed and said no, and sat down on the couch a few feet away. Then I started drinking.

I have been in 2 similar situations before. This is not my first experience with rape, sexual assault, being taken advantage of, being irresponsible, whatever you’d like to call it. I’d like to get some feedback on those situations as well, so I will be posting a question/summary on those two incidents within the next day or so. Sad as it is, this incident is just the tip of the iceberg.. I have been through much worse, as you will soon read.

My poor/lack of judgment was what got me drunk and put myself in the situations… but the assholes made the selfish, idiotic decision to take advantage of me while I was in such a state. I lost my virginity in a one night stand on the beach when I was 17. My sex life has been so screwed up ever since. Out of the 9 guys I have had sex with, I have only truly cared for 2 of them. I have learned a lot from these situations and other past experiences. I have recently decided to become celibate. I have no desire to have sex until I am married. After experiencing how much of vile mockery sex can be made into, I have reformed my views on abstinence and only want to experience it with the man I truly love and will be spending the rest of my life with. The only man deserving of me is my future husband. I am in therapy right now. My problem isn’t being hypersexual or having a too “casual” view on sex, it’s being seen as easy prey and not knowing how to say no and assert my own wishes due to subconscious low self-esteem/respect.

I have also changed my drinking habits. I normally just drink socially, but I will not let myself get so hammered, and I will not be drinking around guys, ever, unless I know them extremely well. And honestly I cannot stand the taste of alcohol anymore… I think I will be refraining from alcohol for a very long time anyway.

There is one other factor here, I am 20. He is 23. My parents knew he came over and brought alcohol (I was very sick and throwing up for hours on end the next day). They asked me the next day why I was sick (They have seen me hung over before, and there was no other way I could’ve gotten the alcohol. I was not going to get away with it, so I figured there was no point in lying about it) so I told them everything, except for the sex part. They got very angry, not only because I snuck him in at 1 in the morning, but because he snuck alcohol into their house and gave it to a minor. (My room is in the basement, two floors below their room. That’s how all of this was able to happen) They’re not going to, but they told me that if they really wanted to, they could report him to the police.

BhacSsylan's avatar

@AmberM88 Then get him on the alcohol to minors aspect, if you can. As has been stated, this guy deserves punishment, and that’s at least something. I’m sorry for the piss poor responses from some people, at least your seeking help. Celibacy isn’t the only answer, but considering your apparent history it may not be a bad decision for a while, until you can get all this a little more straightened out. At least you haven’t started blaming yourself, that’s a good thing. I hope therapy helps.

@jca The topic is two questions. Only the second is necessarily legal in nature. And everyone here pretty much has said it won’t stand in court. The feminists on here are just disgusted that that is the case.

WestRiverrat's avatar

I agree with @BhacSsylan Get him on busted on giving alcohol to a minor.

It will give your self confidence a boost if nothing else.

bkcunningham's avatar

@WestRiverrat in this situation it would be her parents taking out those charges and that would mean the entire story would most likely come out. Something to consider.

WestRiverrat's avatar

Do her parents have to file the complaint, @bkcunningham why can’t she swear out the complaint herself?

Seaofclouds's avatar

Just a thought, if her parents mention him giving her the alcohol and she says yes it did happen, she could possibly get in trouble as well for underage drinking. Some states have very strict zero tolerance rules about underage drinking and it could end up getting her in trouble too (in some states it could end up costing her her driver’s license if she has one).

bkcunningham's avatar

She could go to the local prosecuting attorney and he most likely wouldn’t pursue the case unless her parents got involved because 1) she admittedly snuck the boy into her parent’s home, 2) her parents would have to be witnesses since it was their house and their juvenile, 3) she admittedly wasn’t forced to drink the alcoholic beverage.

I mean what would she say? I drank alcohol voluntarily but I’m underage. Prosecute the 23 year old boy I snuck into my parent’s house?

If the boy still lives at home, I’d be inclined as a parent, to talk to him and his parents and lay the law down to all involved. Regardless, with just the information she told the parents, I’d still talk to the 23 year old and explain what was going to happen if he ever entered my house again without my permission with or without alcohol.

roundsquare's avatar

Anyone know if her consent is considered tainted if its induced by alcohol while she is underage? I’m not sure about this…

bkcunningham's avatar

@roundsquare her consent for sex? It depends on the laws in her state. Generally, and remembers it varies, but it is considered rape, regardless of the age, if the victim is incapable of giving consent because of mental deficiency or disease, or when the victim is incapable of giving consent because of the effect of any alcoholic liquor, narcotic, drug, or any other substance, which condition was known by the offender or was reasonably apparent to the offender.

WasCy's avatar

The fact of you being underage puts a different color on all of this. I think @roundsquare has a good question, whether the fact of consent is overridden by the serving of alcohol to a minor.

Regardless. Whether it was or was not rape is not a matter of simply “what happened” but “what can be proved” beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. And even having heard only one side of the story here I’m sensing “reasonable doubt” all over the place. (As well as no doubt at all that this guy is a schmuck.)

When you put yourself in harm’s way, you can’t blame everything else in the world for harming you. Hopefully you’ll be able to work on some techniques for keeping yourself out of trouble and making better decisions in the future. The things you say now (later in the thread) make it seem like that is possible, as long as it’s you saying those things, and not just repeating things that others have said to you (such as your therapist) and that you think are “good ideas to have” whether you share them or not. It’s not important to find the answers to “why have I made such bad choices in the past?” (in fact, I think it’s counter-productive to look for or even to consider those reasons), but it’s vital to find answers to “how can I make better choices?” So here’s hoping that you’ll do that, along with finding positive answers to “why do I deserve to make better choices and have better outcomes?”

So to answer the question again, “no, you don’t have a strong case at court” (unless you get pregnant or contract an STD, in which case you could certainly sue in civil court for child support and/or damages, and have a very strong case). But it seems that you got a wake-up call, and I hope that you really do learn from it.

GingerMinx's avatar

I do not see it as date rape. You never told him you didn’t want to have sex with him, you never said no, you never left, you never locked him out you did nothign to discourage him from going ahead. At 20 you are an adult and in control of your own actions. You chose to drink with him, and let things progress. Frankly I think crying rape here is a slap in the face to women who have really been raped. Learn from your poor choices.

iamthemob's avatar

I’m going to preface everything that I’m about to say by telling you, @AmberM88, this guy was an asshole.

That being said, this doesn’t sound like it was rape in a legal sense (I’ll note that “date rape” is not a crime so much as a recognition that the non-consensual aspect of rape is not always about violence or the threat of violence). Whether consent was given, whether it was retracted, etc., is muddied by the fact that both of you had been drinking, there were a lot of mixed signals – mixed partially because we do live in a “rape culture” that promotes women being passive sexually and men being aggressive, and that there are periods you don’t remember.

One thing that I think you should consider when thinking about pursuing criminal legal action, and what kind, is that if you do decide that he should be accused of rape what that might do. What if you did succeed? What happens to his life? I’m not saying that he deserves such consideration personally – but in terms of a general question, it’s one to bear in mind.

Now, I say the above only because there are real criminal repercussions that may result from his actions. You are a minor in the eyes of the law when it comes to drinking – therefore, you being drunk at all and the fact that he provided it means that something that may otherwise be really bad decision-making with a real asshole actually a crime. There are also forms of sexual battery that this may fall under.

And regardless, there are a couple of things that I don’t know if people have emphasized -

(1) you say that you are getting tested for STDs – don’t stop there. See a doctor, tell the doctor everything, have the doctor test you for anything, and see what preventative measures can be taken in the future (if you haven’t received an HPV vaccination, ask about it).

(2) I think it’s impressive that you are not, it seems, trying to blame anyone – but to figure out the right thing to do for you and the responsible thing to do as a woman. And as a crime may have been committed, you need to start talking about it. Even if nothing happens, realize that talking about it with the authorities is a contribution.

PS – Four Loco is insane, and needs to be treated differently than alcohol. It essentially allows you to power drink without feeling the effects until it’s too late. This guy may have known that – and counted on it.

mammal's avatar

Not impressed by this story, sounds like a chauvinist bully, i know boys will be boys and all, and insistent, that goes with the territory, he’s entitled to make a move and so forth, but this is beyond the pale, he needs a fucking good talking too at the very least.

Odysseus's avatar

This has similarities to the Jullian Assange rape case where she said yes but only with a condom, he allegedly lied about having one (or removed it?) therefore under Swedish law this was rape.

I doubt the laws in your area are as strict as those of the Swedish courts. So under your circumstances I dont think you have a case for rape.

sarahjane90's avatar

If you didn’t want to have sex with him, why didn’t you lock him out of the house when he went outside to his car?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

I’d like to start by saying I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this. It’s a horrible situation and I know what it means to feel used or taken advantage of. But I do have to be honest and tell you that you do not have a case for rape that would hold up in court.

If you specifically said, “NO” out loud and told him to stop, that would be rape. You told him to come over, told him to bring alcohol and you let him undress you TWICE, without verbally saying, “I don’t want to do this”. You specifically said he had to use a condom, which meant you were giving consent for sexual activity. If you give consent, it can not be considered rape.

I’m not saying the whole thing is your fault; the guy is clearly an asshole. BUT, you could’ve told him, “NO”, you could’ve locked him out of the house when he went out to his car, you could’ve told him you’d call the cops or something. Instead, you let the situation progress and I’m sorry to say it, but that’s on you.

There is no case for rape here, and I should know as I was forcefully held down and damn near raped when I was thirteen. I kneed him hard as I could in the nuts and ran away, after I had repeatedly said “Stop it” and he ignored me.

All I can tell you at this moment, is to learn from this experience. Never forget the poor choices you made in this situation, and always plan any encounters with the opposite sex very carefully, so that something like this doesn’t happen again.

iamthemob's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – A couple of things:

(1) Make sure you read @AmberM88‘s response in the thread – she’s not denying responsibility on her part.

(2) “Date rape” can be understood very differently from rape – whether or not the cultural focus on date rape as a phenomenon at this point is helpful or harmful in advancing a pro-woman agenda is, for me, up for debate.

(3) I’m going to bring up the Four Loko thing again – look at this article (everyone) but this is of particular interest: Each can is about 12% alcohol and comes in a 23.5 ounce can. After a little calculation, that amounts to the equivalent of about a bottle of wine and a few cups of coffee.

@AmberM88 had, essentially, a bottle of wine – probably had no idea how much alcohol she had – didn’t feel it clearly as it was masked by the caffeine – and was surprised when all at once it hit her.

To be honest, the more I read about this stuff, the more it seems like it’s really just over-the-counter pre-mixed roofies available at your local convenience store.

tedd's avatar

Not Rape… but very VERY shady. Dudes a super douchebag and I wouldn’t hang out with him again… and I would take the advice of having people rough him up. But if you didn’t say no, and you let it progress that far twice, before blacking out even…. I have a hard time calling that rape.

In the future just be CLEAR about what you do and do not want to do. If you don’t want to have sex, SAY IT. A lot of times when guys get horny we think we have a chance no matter what… until we’re told no.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@iamthemob I understand what you’re saying, and I also understand how horrible she’s feeling. BUT, she gave consent by saying “not without a condom” and that’s the crux of the matter. She can not claim rape, date rape or any form of sexual abuse if she gave consent.

I have been in a similar situation. I let myself get tangled up with a man who was a pedophile. (I didn’t know that at the time.) I didn’t really want to sleep with him, but I didn’t stop it from happening either. He was 28 and I was 17 (which is the legal age for consent in Texas). A couple of things happened during our “encounter” that really disturbed me and made me feel sick, and I left as soon as I could. He was later busted for child molestation and is still in prison, as far as I know. I hope the bastard rots slowly and suffers.

I understand what she’s feeling, but she still doesn’t have a case for rape of any kind. I don’t care if she’d been drinking, she was still in enough control of herself to say “not without a condom” and to let him undress her. She was still in enough control of herself to stand up and re-dress while he was outside. She could have easily locked the door to prevent him from reentering the house.

She was taken advantage of and she feels sick about it now and regrets it, but she still participated by letting him undress her TWICE instead of saying, “I don’t want this.” I’m sorry, I know it’s harsh, but this was a bad decision, NOT rape of any kind.

iamthemob's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – We totally agree in principle and practice regarding the rape question (I believe). There is still a criminal issue as it’s almost certain that he broke the law by providing her liquor – regardless of whether she wanted it.

The main problem that I have, the more that I think about this, is that @AmberM88 drank the equivalent of a bottle of wine, and it’s totally reasonable that she had no idea that she was drinking that much. My question now knowing that is really, considering her age, what seems like a sudden onset of inebriation, that amount of liquor, and not knowing about it combined really, really bring into question how much responsibility she actually has in this.

I’m not going to argue that this is the equivalent of being roofied – but it seems like this drink is a strange loophole. It’s about the size of a Monster energy drink, the liquor taste as well as effect are masked, so they are often also drunk faster than normal – like it’s more of an energy drink than a bottle of wine. It’s like mainlining alcohol.

As a note – here’s an article talking about nine girls people thought had been given a date rape drug, but who just had a Four Loko, and many have dubbed it blackout in a can.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@iamthemob I totally understand your concerns about Four Loko, but at this point, we can’t even be sure she had the one with caffeine in it. Four Loko announced last year that they would no longer be making Four Loko with caffeine and several other ingredients and were planning to come out with a new version of Four Loko back in January of this year because the FDA said that the addition of caffeine is an unsafe additive in alcoholic beverages and the FDA was planning to work on making it so that they could no longer do so. I’m not saying what you are saying about the old Four Loko is incorrect because it is accurate, just that we don’t know which version of Four Loko she had (with or without caffeine). If she had the one without caffeine, it would have a different effect on her than the one with caffeine. It’s really a mute point at this point though.

I’ve been doing some reading about the laws in Georgia and they have some pretty crazy sex laws. From what I read last night, it doesn’t sound like Georgia would consider this rape, but possibly sexual battery. There’s a kicker though, if Georgia saw her sex as consensual, then she could end up getting both of them charged with fornication which is a misdemeanor in Georgia. Apparently they do actually charge people with this (I read cases of people charged with it recently) and it basically says any two people having sex that are not married are guilty of fornication. Talk about crazy laws…

iamthemob's avatar

@Seaofclouds – I think you raise an important point – and to clarify, my discussion of the alcohol/Four Loko issue was more of a reservation of judgment than a statement arguing that this was possibly a drug-date rape scenario.

I don’t think it’s clearly moot, though, as making choices in these scenarios really requires that the person really be educated about the choices being made. There was a good deal of focus on the choice to drink here – my problem is that on the facts given the results of the drinking were completely unexpected, and this is really something to consider.

And not to get paranoid – but it’s possible that the unexpected results for her were 100% a goal of his.

Seaofclouds's avatar

@iamthemob I didn’t mean that the drinking was moot, just that whether the Four Loko had caffeine or not was. Drinking definitely had some effect on the events of the evening, but how much is really hard to say without any of us witnessing what happened or how intoxicated either of them were. Obviously the alcohol hit her during the intercourse, how much it was effecting her and her decision making abilities before that point though, none of us can really know. I’m not defending what happened at all, just stating that it’s hard to judge those types of situations without really being there.

iamthemob's avatar

@Seaofclouds – I totally agree – which is why I have a slight problem with the validity of any argument (not the fact that the arguments are made – that’s totally understandable) that assigns fault for not doing something or taking certain actions that put her in the compromising position.

Sex and the pressures associated with it is a confusing and powerful force. We can point out the things that shouldn’t be done again – but that’s not fault so much as inexperience.

Cupcake's avatar

@AmberM88 I would strongly encourage you to discuss the events of the entire night with your parents and therapist.

I’m so sorry this happened.

After being raped, I was unable to say “no” to men for a long time. I figured that if I “wanted” it then no one could rape me again.

Please don’t blame yourself… don’t feel stuck in this… figure out what pieces you can take and learn from and what pieces you need to forgive or grieve over. Please talk about it with your therapist.

This may be of interest to you.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@iamthemob I agree with you that the drink in question is dangerous, and the effects of it can overwhelm you all of a sudden. My point against that, though, is she was still lucid enough to get up and get dressed while he was outside, no matter the effects of the drink. So she can not claim that the drink wasted her enough for the boy to take her without her knowing.

I do agree that the parents could bring the boy up on charges of suppying alcohol to a minor, but that could also result in Amber herself getting in trouble.

In short, there is nothing she can do in this situation that guarantees punishment for the boy, just as there is nothing she can do that guarantees no punishment for her. She’s sort of between a rock and a hard place in this situation. She just needs to learn from her mistake and move on.

jonsblond's avatar

All of you saying she was aware enough to put clothes back on but didn’t lock the door, have you ever been completely drunk/wasted before? Unfortunately I have. You can be doing something one second then completely out of it the next. You are underestimating the power of alcohol. It makes you do things you wouldn’t normally do. She may not have been raped, but this was still a horrifying experience for @AmberM88. I think a few of us here need to back off a little and quit giving her a hard time for not locking the door.

iamthemob's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – Again – we agree on the lesson aspect of this terrible situation.

But, I’m only going to counter that I can’t really believe that an underage person would be subject to serious penalty in this case, particularly considering that the legislative and regulatory schemes in these cases is to prevent the alcohol from being available to underage drinkers to begin with.

My problem with “letting this go” is that the more people simply reporting incidents like this shows the real social impact and prevalence of such acts. The problem with sex crimes is that, mainly, they aren’t reported.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@jonsblond I have been totally trashed before, and I’ve experienced the “out of control” feeling. But the point is- if she was able to stand up and dress herself then go sit on the couch, and she was still lucid eneough to know she wanted to get dressed and leave the room because she didn’t want to have sex, then her brain was still in control at that point. I’m not saying the whole thing is her fault, or that “she was asking for it”. What I’m saying is that from her comments above, she was still in control, yet she neglected to do what really needed to be done if she didn’t want to sleep with him.

@iamthemob Yes, I know, and it’s terrible. Too many people are taken advantage of like this, without anything being done about it, and it’s not right.

sliceswiththings's avatar

Yeah, as others have said, it’s as simple as consent not being legal consent if given under the influence of drugs or alcohol. And you didn’t even give consent. I think you’d have a case. If you were drunk enough to black out there’s no question that it was date rape.

iamthemob's avatar

@sliceswiththings – The problem there, however, is proving that the guy knew that she was unconconscious.

That’s really going to be next to impossible. And realize also that, when blacked out, most people continue to function.

syzygy2600's avatar

I’m not a lawyer, but if you want my opinion, that was absolutely rape.

I don’t think it would stand in court, because too many women have a few drinks, consent to sex with a guy, and then when they sober up, they regret it, so they just claim “I was raped” We need to protect men from these vindictive types of women.

However that’s clearly not what happened here, when you say that you got dressed and then he took you back into the room and undressed you…yeah that’s not right.

faye's avatar

What has happened to taking responsibility for your own behavior? Who the hell sneaks men in, drinks a bunch, gets naked and is surprised when he has sex? Kee-rist! Maybe don’t do that, and not once but twice with her parents home?!! I am flabbergasted.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

Yup, after seeing the other story the OP posted, I am definitely not feeling any sympathy now. OP keeps getting herself into sticky situation and then cries wolf after the fact. I’m done with this.

JustJessica's avatar

You insisted on a condom…. to a guy that means “yes” as long as you have a condom!

I do agree that he’s an asshole though! But honey you gotta wise up! That’s not how you get boys to like you!

mrentropy's avatar

@JustJessica But it also doesn’t burn bridges from a person that will bring alcohol.

jca's avatar

“Not without a condom” = “yes, let’s have sex, with a condom.”

getting dressed =/= saying no

El_Cadejo's avatar

Okkkk so heres what I dont get. According to the story here the OP had multiple drinks and even mentions drinking 2–3 more after already being quite drunk but still coherent enough to tell this one guy no because he has a girlfriend. But in this story she only had ONE drink yet was completely blacked out and powerless to it.

Am I missing something?

AmberM88's avatar

@uberbatman Nope, this one (and some of his) drink was Four Lokos. I am guessing you do not know too much about it. The drinks in the other post were just beers. When I had told him no, that was before I drank the other 2–3. I gave consent to him after I drank those.

faye's avatar

I thought you never gave consent?

jca's avatar

I’m starting to think she does not know what she gave.

AmberM88's avatar

@faye Nope, I did. If you re-read it will specifically say, “I eventually gave in to his advances” and “I did give consent”

faye's avatar

Then where does rape come into it? No, I don’t read those 2 statements.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@AmberM88 actually I do know about four loko. sure it has more alcohol but still not as much as the many beers you claimed to have drank in story 2. Its only the equivalent to 2.5 shots of vodka. Not really that much at all.

Also, you clearly need to learn how to handle your alcohol. You tend to make some poor decisions under the influence of it.

Edit: The above assumes you had the stronger 12% alcohol 4 loko. In many states however you can only get 6%. So, a bottle of beer is 12.7oz which would be .508 oz of alcohol. 4 loko 23.5oz at 12% it be 2.82 oz and at 6% it be 1.41 oz. So your looking at 2.5 – 5 beers. Again story 2 claims you drank much more than this.

AmberM88's avatar

@faye Where did I say anything at all about rape? I think you are getting the stories mixed up.

@uberbatman I did not claim to drink any specific number of beers. I said 2–3 later, but I never said a total. And no, I do not know how to handle my alcohol. Which is why I couldn’t handle the four lokos.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

<taps Amber on the shoulder> Ummm, I believe you mentioned rape in the question title and in the details also. Faye is talking about this thread, because she’s commenting on this thread. Perhaps you’re getting confused about which “taken advantage of” question you’re commenting on.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@AmberM88 right you said 2–3 later and you were drunk prior to this so what did you have 1 beer before?

And knowing you cant handle alcohol yet you put yourself into these situations, what does that say about you?

iamthemob's avatar

@uberbatman – what you’re not realizing, though, is that drinking the Four Loko is like drinking 4–5 beers at the same time. When your drinking beer, you drink them one after another.

@AmberM88 – I’m going to say again, because I don’t know if it got lost in the mix, that you really should see a doctor and talk to that doctor about contacting the police. I’m not urging any action beyond that – it’s just that the more information that the medical and the legal community have about these trends the better.

AmberM88's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate “The drinks in the other post were just beers. When I had told him no, that was before I drank the other 2–3. I gave consent to him after I drank those.”

“I thought you never gave consent?”

”@faye Nope, I did. If you re-read it will specifically say, “I eventually gave in to his advances” and “I did give consent” ”

She may be commenting on this thread, but in that particular post I was referring to the other, and she asked a question regarding what I had said. I was under the impression that she had made the connection. It was a simple misunderstanding between us.

@uberbatman iamthemob explains about the four lokos thing and has some great information that might help you understand better why that probably happened. What does that say about me? It says that I have some serious issues and need professional help.

@iamthemob Thank you. I didn’t realize that the four lokos couldve been a bigger factor than I thought it was, thank you for bringing that to light.

iamthemob's avatar

@AmberM88 – I just also want to note that I’m of the firm belief still that this isn’t rape on the facts given. I’m going to echo some of the sentiments above and say, even though I advocate reporting to help others potentially, I do think rape is a powerful, powerful accusation and should not be made lightly.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@iamthemob your body doesnt metabolize alcohol that fast that it will make that much of a difference. Maybe spread out over 5–6 hours it would but again the story implies otherwise.

@AmberM88 so how about you get it instead of blaming others for your problems?

iamthemob's avatar

@uberbatman – That’s really problematic. Do you think that this guy is blameless in the scenario?

El_Cadejo's avatar

@iamthemob blameless, no. But amber is at fault as well and claiming things such as rape dont help. And based on story 2 throwing blame for her own faults seems to be a trend. She needs to instead take responsibility for her own actions

iamthemob's avatar

@uberbatman – Realize, though, that she didn’t claim it was rape to begin with – she was asking us if it was/would it hold up in court.

That’s being responsible – it’s trying to sort out the problem if possible prior to making an accusation.

AmberM88's avatar

@iamthemob Again, thank you.

@uberbatman I am not trying to blame this whole thing on the guy, nor am I trying to blame everything on the other guy either. I know what I did, I know it was it my fault, I know I got myself into it. And I already am in therapy, as I have mentioned several times.

After reading responses with some really valid points and really thinking about things, I would not consider this rape. I do feel rather violated, but I do not feel raped. I never actually accused him of rape in the first place, I was simply asking what others made of the situation. I had told a close friend what had happened and they firmly believed that it was date rape and that I should take him to court. I was not sure what to believe, but I now have a much clearer perspective on the situation.

wundayatta's avatar

I don’t think it would hold up in court because now it’s a “he said, she said” issue. If you sound at all unsure or if the jury thinks your thinking was impaired, or that you are generally unreliable, then I doubt if you will be able to get a rape conviction.

However, even if you can’t get a conviction, I think you should still talk to the DA and perhaps the cops. If the DA doesn’t want to push the case, then you’re out of luck, I guess. However, if the DA is willing, you may want to push it, even knowing you are very unlikely to get a conviction. You would do that for educational purposes and to raise the issue in your community, just as you have done here.

WasCy's avatar

@AmberM88

Yeah, I want to be clear here. I think there’s no doubt at all that you were violated. No question in my mind. You were fed alcohol (as a minor) by someone who seemed to know what he was doing and what he wanted to happen. He took advantage of your apparently passive nature and (for whatever reason) refusal to simply say “no”, and he may have even drugged you. (Based on the fact that he continued to have sex with you when you were passed out – or on the way to being that way – he’s a blackguard. There’s no question about that. So I wouldn’t be surprised if he put even more into your drinks than what you know about – and the Four Lokos seem to be enough on their own.)

The problem is that this has to stand up in court to be “rape”, and that’s where you don’t have “a case”, because no rape investigation was done immediately, it was just the two of you, and he’s unlikely to stand up in court and present his side the way that you presented yours, and all of that leaves reasonable doubt in the jurors’ minds. I’m glad to hear that you’ve recognized and started to address the problem and that you’re getting help with that and working on changing your life. More power to you.

Now, don’t beat yourself up any more over this, either. It’s part of your past, and let’s hope that you’ve learned from it… and let’s hope that the rest of us here will let this go now, too.

GingerMinx's avatar

If you know you can’t handle your drink why drink? I am sorry but if you have already had one situation where you agreed to somethign you didn’t want because of drink why drink again? Being drunk does not make any difference, you chose to drink, its that simple. The guy here seems to be being tared feathered for simply being pushy. No where was there any definite no given him, and in fact saying not wihtout a condom is giving consent.

iamthemob's avatar

@GingerMinx – In no manner was this guy tarred and feathered. He was not being pushy, he was (1) being irresponsible with the health of another, (2) providing liquor to a minor in hopes of getting her to make these bad decisions, (3) physically imposed himself on her.

She made a bad choice that put her at the mercy of this guy. He made all the choices after that – and they were all really upsetting.

GingerMinx's avatar

@iamthemob Where I live 20 is not a minor nor underage for drinking, which she chose to drink and in fact told him to bring it. They were both irresponsible. He did not impose himself as she never said no, she did not push him off, she did not lock him out, she did nothing to discourage him. He was pushy yes, but she gave consent when she said, not wihtout a condom. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying he is a nice guy, simply that he didn’t deserve the run down he got here.

iamthemob's avatar

@GingerMinx – I don’t know – I refuse to say that we should call what he did anything close to rape but I’m still willing to say: yes he did.

WestRiverrat's avatar

I agree with @iamthemob That fella needs some serious man training.

GingerMinx's avatar

I think the person asking this question needs some serious assertive training. My point was that they were equally responsible for what happened. Him for pushing and her for not stopping him when she didn’t want to.

iamthemob's avatar

@GingerMinx – I agree that @AmberM88 carries some responsibility for the situation. @AmberM88 agrees as well.

But she’s not equally responsible – he’s culpable because it’s clear his intent was seriously messed up. She’s immature – very different levels of responsibility.

El_Cadejo's avatar

But what if his intent was only messed up because the alcohol? What if hes really just a nice guy and he too makes poor decisions under the influence?

iamthemob's avatar

@uberbatman – You make a good point – I think you’re right. However, I talk about intent really not to emphasize or argue that this guy was a “bad guy” generally (although I strongly lean to that being the right answer), but to emphasize that the decisions he made come from a more active, selfish, intentional place (“I want this and I’m going to get what I want”) whereas hers came from a much more passive place.

I do think that there’s a difference between “making something happen” and “letting something happen” in most cases, and in those cases one is more culpable for making it happen. Of course, there are many, many situations where one can be held culpable morally or legally for acts of omission – but on average we look on such omissions as being more readily defensible than positive acts.

El_Cadejo's avatar

@iamthemob I would have to agree with that assessment.

GingerMinx's avatar

@iamthemob I disagree, I think they have equal responsibility. The only diminished capacity I accept is if one had a mental handicap making them incapable of making an informed decission or if one was a minor. Neither was the case the here. She fully understood what was happening. His intent was to have sex, she never gave a clear refusal. Like I said, I am not calling him a nice person, I merely think they hold equal responsibility for what happened. I refuse to even accept the alcohol as an excuse since both consented to drinking knowing how it would affect them. She even admits to having been in the same situation before so knew what drinkign would do to her.

jca's avatar

Ok, this is obviously a controversial topic which everyone has very strong opinions about. It seems like the answers are starting to go round and round in circles. At this point there are 138 answers. It seems as if every aspect of the incident has been touched on.

bkcunningham's avatar

@jca the only thing that I don’t believe has been touched on is that the young lady was worried about an STD because of the condom or lack there of and all of the girls the fellow had been with. Yet she didn’t seem to be worried about an STD from him “going down on her.” Just saying….Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

MacBean's avatar

For your consideration, taken from here, a piece written by a survivor called “THINGS THAT YOU JUST SHOULD NOT SAY TO/ASK A RAPE VICTIM” (complete with original spelling mistakes!). Every single form of victim-blaming that she discusses and says is a no-no has been used somewhere in this thread. Disgusting.
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Possible Trigger Warnings: Rape, rape culture, victim-blaming.
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From when sexual assaults are reported on the news to when a friend or family member is talking to you personally, there are some things you just…don’t say, because not only can those thing be completely and utterly horrid but they can really just frickin’ hurt the person that you’re saying them to. Speaking from personal experience, I still remember exactly what the first person I ever told about the abuse I went through said to me and I can safely say that what she said sufficently planted that “it’s all your fault” seed in a part of my head, which in ten years and another assault later has grown into a nice little black hole.
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As far as all of the things to not ask and not say go, I think they all can be separated into four specific categories:

First off, there are the ”I’m totally not blaming you for what happened, but have you tried covering every inch of your skin and locking yourself in a tower that’s guarded by a fire breathing dragon” questions. These are the ones where a person implies (or flat out insists) that you MUST have been doing something that “provoked” the attacker(s) into raping you.

Examples of this are: What were you wearing? How much did you drink? Did you keep an eye on your drink at ALL times? Did you flirt with the person/people who did this? How late was it? Did you lock your door? Did you get into a car with them? How many sexual partners have you had in the past?

Reasons why this is a shit thing to say: Because rape is never the victim’s fault. What one person does—what they drink, what they wear, how many people they’ve had sex with—does not flip on a switch in another person’s mind that forces them to rape another person. What one person does does not negate the fact that they did not consent or could not consent or wasn’t in a state where their consent was valid. When you ask questions like this, you are essentially telling the person that you think that they could have prevented what happened to them. And here’s a fun fact, people; the only real rape prevention is for people to not be rapists.
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The second category is for the ”Did you ___? Why not? Well, I would have!” questions. This is what happens when the person will ask you if you did something that they think you obviously should have done, then asks why not, and when your answer isn’t satisfactory enough for them they give their input on how they’d be so much more kick-ass than you.

Examples of this: Why didn’t you call the police? Why didn’t you fight back? Why didn’t you scream? Did you tell anyone? Well, if I were in your position I would’ve fought them tooth and nail! I wouldn’t have LET them rape me!

Reasons why this is a shit thing to say: It’s easy to say what you would or wouldn’t have done when you weren’t the person in that situation. The fact of the matter is that you were not the one who experienced this and even if you had a similar experience in the past, this person is not you. Their mind doesn’t work the same way as yours, what they experienced is not the same as what you experienced. What they felt, what was going through their head at the time—these are unique to that person. Even if you were placed in that exact—and I mean EXACT—same situation, you would not feel exactly what they felt. There may be similar, borderline identical things there but you and them are two seperate people and your responses to events and reactions to them are not going to be completely mirrored.
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The third category is for the ”You got off lucky! There are people who get out of things like this soooo much worse off than you!” statements. This is like the cousin of the opression olympics. The person will explain to you that you really have no right to feel anything other than relieved about what happened because there are people in the world who have experienced much more painful things and you’re totally lucky that you got off that easy.

Examples of this are: You’re lucky you were a young child when this happened, there are people who have clear memories of their attack! You’re lucky that they didn’t kill you, at least you’re alive! You should be glad that they weren’t rough with you, there are some people who are really get physically hurt by this!

Reasons why this is a shit thing to say: Just because someone else in the world is going through/went through something “more severe” than what this person went through does not mean that what happened to this person didn’t happen, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t allowed to feel how they feel, and it doesn’t mean that you have any right to tell them that they should be happy that they “got off easy”. This is the same concept that allows the idea of “forcible rape is the only real rape” to exist. Rape isn’t just about bruises or blood; just because there aren’t physical scars doesn’t mean that the person isn’t affected by what happened and you have no right, whatsoever, to tell them what they are and aren’t allowed to feel about this.
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And, last but not least, there is category four; the ”Raped? You weren’t raped. I want you to prove to me RIGHT NOW that you were raped” statements. These are the people who flat out don’t believe anything that you say. The reasons given can range from the “popular people don’t need to rape to get laid” to the “you were drunk, you’re not allowed to feel bad and cry rape the next day”.

Examples of this are: He’s the most popular guy at school, he could have anyone he wants so he totally wouldn’t have raped anyone! Look at you, just be glad that you got laid and quit trying to ruin a good person’s life! Pfft, look at how they dress it’s totally obvious that they’re only accusing them to get attention!

Reasons why this is a shit thing to say: Contrary to what various TV shows or movies or media outlets would have you believe, not all rapists and victims fit a specific type—they don’t all have the same appearance or personalities. Popular people, pretty people, and people that would have “no trouble getting laid”? Those people can be rapists too. Just like those people who you think would be “lucky to get with someone like them!” can be rape victims. This line of reasoning? This is the line of reasoning that lets pro-athletes get off scott free when there’s a mountain of evidence that they’re guilty. This is the line of reasoning that has victims terrified to tell anyone about how this popular, everyone-likes-em person dragged them into the school bathroom and raped them. This person has no—let me repeat that: NO—obligation to prove a damn thing to you and the fact that you automatically doubt them because of how “awesome” their rapist is or because of how “not-awesome” they are is just flat out an asshole move.

———

All of these things? These are all things that I’ve had said to me. These are things that I’ve heard other people have said to them. These are things that I’ve read about being said to people in various blogs and journals online. And these are things that I see in every single comment section of every single rape that makes the headlines.

These are all things that just should NOT be said. These all are statements or questions that somehow say—whether it be subtle or blunt—that the rape was in some way the victim’s fault or that the victim did something wrong or that the victim could’ve been a “better” victim or that the victim ain’t even a victm because popular people aren’t rapists or some crap like that!

And I have no clue how to end this post on a note that isn’t awkward or cliche or pep talky, so…I’m just going to end it with a period and be done.

El_Cadejo's avatar

Well, if one doesnt want to be questioned one shouldnt be asking if it is or isnt rape.

Also by calling this rape your implying the “victim” didnt have free will over her actions and was forced into it. But according to her story, she did.

MacBean's avatar

‘If the victim doesn’t want to be blamed, they should keep their slutty mouths shut’? Ace!

If we didn’t live in a victim-blaming society, she wouldn’t even have asked if it was rape. She’d know it was. She may have had free will over her actions, but her decision-making process was impaired, and she didn’t have free will over the actions of the guy involved. So even if she’s bought into the crap people have spewed here and willingly accepts some blame, it’s not her fault.

The_Idler's avatar

So you’re saying you should never say to someone in such a situation as this,
“You need to be assertive and say NO!” ...!?

because I think being explicit like that would achieve AT LEAST one of two things:
Either the idiot man will actually get the picture and fuck off,
OR there would be no discussion about whether it was rape.

and then this whole fucking problem wouldnt exist, would it?

Now, I agree that we should all be able to wear and say and drink and take and go whatever/wherever we want, without having to fear sexual assault, but I think it would be counter-productive to refrain from making suggestions that might help victims avoid it in future.

Yeah, sure, it’d be lovely if we could all stop in darkened alleys to count our cash…
Yeah, sure, it’d be lovely if people all understood instantly whether their advances are appreciated or not…
Unfortunately, this is not the world we live in. So, a little pragmatism please?

ESPECIALLY in a case like this, where for all we know it could’ve been prevented simply by being a little more assertive and explicit. Who knows what was going through the guy’s head? maybe he was just a moron and thought God-knows-what, but if you’re explicit with him, there’s no argument is there? There’s no way he can claim ignorance if he’d been told explicitly NO, GET OUT.

I can’t believe you’d suggest we don’t advise to be more assertive!? You’d be saying what?
“Oh, that’s hard luck, yaknow, I don’t really know what to do about that, so I can only suggest that next time it happens you do exactly the same thing as before…”

REALLY!?

El_Cadejo's avatar

@MacBean it must be nice to never have to take responsibility for your own actions then.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@MacBean Everything you said is great, in a case where it really WAS rape.

1. She called him to come over.
2. She told him to bring alcohol.
3. She let him undress her.
4. She basically said sex was okay as long as he wore a condom.
5. When he walked to his car to get the condoms, she didn’t lock him out.
6. When he came back in, she let him undress her again.

He did not rape her. She had sex with him, and now regrets it because he was a total asshole about it. That’s not rape.

I was playing a video game with a boy. He leaned over to kiss me and I was so excited about a kiss because I was 13 and he was 16, and at that age, everyone older than you is “cool and amazing”. He started to slide his hand up my shirt and I said NO. He kept sliding his hand up my shirt anyway and I started to wiggle away and said STOP IT.

Then he pounced. I was held down, pressed against the floor, with one of his legs pinning mine, and his hands pinning my arms over my head. When I wouldn’t willingly open my mouth, he slid his tongue across my lips and tried to force my mouth open. He was telling me things like “you’re so pretty” and “I know you like me” and “you know you want to”. I just kept trying to get up and saying NO I DON’T.

When his hand started sliding up my shorts, I panicked, jerked up as hard as I could and managed to slam my knee right into his filthy wannabe-rapist cock. I ran out as fast as my shaky legs would carry me. THAT’S a rape story. And I wasn’t even penetrated.

If she truly didn’t want to have sex with the guy, she should’ve said NO or STOP, and she shouldn’t have let him undress her TWICE. If you read her testimony, she LET him undress her; he didn’t forcibly take her clothes off. She laid down with him, he didn’t forcibly pin her down. She made the choice to drink alcohol with a boy, alone and unless she’s got downs syndrome or some other “slow” disease, she had to have known what would happen being alone with a boy and drinking alcohol.

Like I said already, everything you said is great about REAL victims of rape. She’s a victim of REGRET, not rape. She let him take advantage, and that IS her fault.

If you even attempt to compare her dilemma to mine, you need to reexamine what you consider to be “rape”. Oh yeah, and let me direct your attention to this question in which the same poster demonstrates her inability to truly own up to her own problems and “drunken ho” behavior, instead of blaming someone else.

You want to call her story in this question a rape? Go for it. If we’re going to call making bad sexual decisions “rape” in such a careless manner, then I’ve been raped by my own husband when I wasn’t in the mood and he talked me into it anyway.

bkcunningham's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate your experience was absolutely attempted rape. I hate that it happened to you but, I’m glad you were able to fight back and get away. Dammit, I don’t know you but it makes my blood boil to think about what you described.

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The_Idler's avatar

@MacBean
No, you said not to TELL someone to be assertive or ASK them if they explicitly said NO.

As far as whether this is “rape” in the Laws’ or anyone’s opinion, or not, we can put aside for a second and agree that what happened was A VERY UNDESIRABLE THING.

Now, if this thing could be prevented in future by someone being ASSERTIVE, being EXPLICIT, saying NO, I think it’s a pretty fucking stupid thing, to come along and say “You should never say such things to a rape victim, because these things imply the blame lies with the victim!”

We’re talking to the victim here, and it would be a sin not to tell her how she could avoid such awful situations in future, and it’s also pretty fucking pointless to say “the only real rape prevention is for people to not be rapists.” Oh, never!~ What do you advise we all do about that then!?

In the interests of advising a victim on avoiding such situations in future, you’d say “the only real rape prevention is for people to not be rapists.” Hmmm, yeah I’ll bear that in mind next time I’m experiencing some unwanted sexual advances. And then, um…

jonsblond's avatar

@MacBean In case you are still following, thanks for posting that. (This is coming from someone that has been raped, twice.)

Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
wundayatta's avatar

It seems to me that the point of trying to tell people what they should do after the fact, is not what is needed. People should be trained what to do before anything happens.

After something happens, and correct me if I’m wrong, I think rape victims want to be taken care of. They want sympathy. They want to feel like they are a person again, instead of some animal that can be violated by anyone who wants to.

Even getting swabbed probably seems like furthering the violation. A rape victim’s world has been turned upside down, and she is not at all interested in, nor able to hear a lesson in self-defense or a lecture on what she should have done.

I’ve spoken privately with a number of women here who have been raped. The consequences of the rape last for a long time. Usually it takes a lot of therapy to start getting to a place where you feel even close to yourself. Being raped can be followed by hypersexuality or homosexuality. It is universally followed by a distinct lowering of self-esteem in the women I’ve talked to.

I don’t see how an argument about whose pain is worse is helpful. No one else can know the pain of another, nor the impact any sexual experience, whether officially designated rape or not, has on that individual.

This woman did not want to have sex with that guy. It doesn’t matter whether she said no or not. She didn’t want it. The guy should have asked, and if she said she didn’t want to (which it sounds like she said), he should have stopped. He clearly coerced her, and it is important to acknowledge that.

As to whether there is a legal case here, that’s a different discussion. A definition of rape matters in the legal realm. So there’s a difference between how she feels about the experience (coerced) and what is possible to prove in court (a jury probably wouldn’t buy it, as is demonstrated by the way people here have responded).

The question was about a matter of law. I think that if we had separated the OP’s feelings (or anyone else’s, for that matter), from what is required, legally, to prosecute someone, we might not have had to get into a situation where people are trying to invalidate someone else’s experience.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@wundayatta Yes, BUT when he started to enter her, she said “not without a condom”. That’s consent. If she really didn’t want it, she should’ve just said a flat out, “NO”. That’s my big hang-up with her whole claim. Four words changed the course of that night, and it was in her power to turn it around, yet she didn’t. I’m sorry, but it’s on her. Especially with the other question she posted. She has a behavioral pattern where she she gets into a situation with alcohol and men and the she claims to feel fuzzy headed and not know what’s going on.

You know what? I’ve been completely hammered, and I mean really and totally trashed. I wasn’t so fuzzy headed that I didn’t realize I had a dick inside my jayjay and that I should say something about it. I’ve been out of my freakin gourd, with a combination of beer, tequila, pot and acid. I still knew enough of what was going on to tell a randy guy that I didn’t want to get naked with him. I stil knew enough of what was going on to ask a friend to get me out of there.

SHE is the one who walks into these situations with her eyes wide open, and as I said above, unless she has some “slow” mental disorder, any girl with any kind of brain has an idea of what happens when you’re alone with a boy and alcohol. She invited the trouble. She has to deal with the consequences. Was the guy a total douchebag about it? YES. Did he rape her? HELL NO.

Websters dictionary definition: RAPE- the crime of having sexual intercourse with a person forcibly and without consent.

Easy conclusion to the whole thing: there was no rape. There was a stupid mistake with a douchebag, that she regrets. He didn’t force her into anything, she went along with it, and her saying “not without a condom” is technically consent.

And at this point, after reading both of her stories, I’m not so sure that I believe her claim that “she didn’t want to.” She invited him over with booze- doesn’t take a dummy to figure that out. And on the other question she posted about being at a party and “being taken advantage of” by a different guy who had a girlfriend… well, I’m not buying the story that she didn’t want that either. I think she simply wanted to post a couple of sob stories on the internet and get sympathy from total strangers, so she could validate the idea she concocted in her head of being taken advantage of.

WasCy's avatar

The wild card in all of this is that he introduced liquor into the scene, even if that was ‘by request’. And from all indications about Four Lokos, it seems to be a pretty potent liquor, too; it’s not as if he just gave her a beer. She drank all of hers and some of his, and she was already inexperienced with the stuff – and a minor, in terms of legal drinking age.

According to the law, at her age she doesn’t have ‘the right’ to drink, and a case could be made that he was contributing to the delinquency of a minor prior to… raping her without consent. When he got her drunk, then whether or not she ‘consented’ to sex is up to debate. That’s what would make this an interesting legal case, however messy. (This is somewhat analogous to the whole issue of ‘consensual’ sex with a minor: minors don’t have “the right” to consent to sex, so sex with a minor is considered on its face to be rape, and ‘consent’ doesn’t enter into the argument.) I think it would be a messy case, and she might be more damaged in its prosecution than she was in the commission of the act to be prosecuted.

As an adult in terms of “age of consent” (to sex), I think that most of us would agree that she has a right to stop the sexual proceedings at any time up to actual penetration. At one point she availed herself of that opportunity to request a change in the conditions under which she would consent. After that, she could have said “no” again at any time, and didn’t. We agree on that. But at what point was her ability to say “no” compromised or obviated by her state of intoxication? I think her ‘friend’ had that very thing in mind when he brought the liquor and let her finish his drink as well as her own. A good attorney could argue ‘intent’ in that, and since that’s already grounded in an illegal act (furnishing liquor to a minor), then the defendant would start off with one strike against him.

I still don’t think that it’s an easy case to win, and I think the attempt might prove to be a Pyrrhic victory: win the case, but lose a lot of ‘reputation points’ and a lot of time and aggravation in the attempt. Since it wasn’t an overtly / violently forced event, and assuming no pregnancy or STD results, then the victim (and I would classify the OP as a victim in this case) might consider herself ‘lucky’ to have escaped with nothing more than a bad memory and a personal goad to modify her own conduct and choice of friends.

I agree with those who say that there is RAPE and there’s rape, and let’s hope the OP never experiences the former, as some here obviously have. But that’s not to completely invalidate her experience as just ‘morning after regret’, either. I think she was violated; I’m glad that it wasn’t worse for her.

Can we agree on that?

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

I still don’t know if I can even get on board with her being “violated” at this point. At first I did, but not after reading her other question, and her belligerent posts defending her own behavior. I think she invited the trouble upon herself, even if the guys in question are douchebags. She simply reaped what she sowed.

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chyna's avatar

The poster @AmberM88 hasn’t been back since Feb. 13. She has no more interest in this topic and I think we should bow out of this also.

WestRiverrat's avatar

The laws on the books in many states add to the confusion about what rape is. In my state alone there are 6 degrees of rape with which a person can be charged. There are also several levels of sexual assault/molestation.

augustlan's avatar

[mod says] Flame off, folks.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

I still stand by what I said: this girl is not a rape victim, she’s a regret victim. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t understand the difference.

wundayatta's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate Why is this so important to you? Do you feel it invalidates your experience?

iamthemob's avatar

I think that part of the reaction is coming both from (1) being accused for being disgusting, as a whole, for defending a side that the OP asked for, and (2) the fact that “rape” is a huge general category and we need to look at all the aspects of it, and levels of it, in order to make intelligent assessments of it.

Consider being accused of supporting child abuse for stating that hitting a child is inevitably child abuse. It takes all the situational factors out of it, whether the adult who hit the child ever did it before or again, whether the child was testing boundaries in the extreme, etc. etc.

We take out the factor of considering both fault on one side and mitigating factors on the other. Accusing a parent of child abuse for a single instance could ruin both the parents and the child’s lives (will the child be taken out of the parent’s care and put into foster care?) etc.

The same thing goes for rape here – asking the OP to take responsibility for her actions while recognizing that it doesn’t negate the guy’s responsibility and that he is probably guilty of something, just not rape, helps keep the force of an accusation of rape directed at appropriate violators, helps to prevent people from bringing frivolous accusations against people, whether they’re intended to be frivolous or not, so that the system actually works in a manner where people who have been raped can feel safer bringing the claims up and have them be taken seriously, etc.

The investment in this isn’t about invalidating personal experiences per se. But when someone says “This is rape and anyone who says otherwise is despicable,” there’s a danger that people won’t take rape charges seriously, it takes away any concept of sexual agency for women (e.g., they’re always victims), and will keep us stuck in this cultural realm where women are the guardians of sexuality and men predators. It also enables cases of “regret” turning into “rape.”

If we’re going to enjoy true sexual equality, we need to recognize the contributions of all parties.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@wundayatta It’s important to me because of what I said in a comment above. If we’re going to consider what happened to this girl to be rape, then I’ve been raped by my own husband, which is the most ridiculous idea ever. There have been a few times when I haven’t been in the mood for sex at all; I’d had a few drinks, which makes me sleepy sometimes, and I just didn’t want to be touched. BUT, drinking damn near always makes my husband randy, and he really wanted to have sex. I let him talk me into it, even though I really didn’t want to. That’s damn close to the same situation as what the OP wrote.

The point is, I could have said “No, absolutely not” or “I’m not in the mood” and held my ground. He would’ve been okay with my decision. The OP could have and should have done the same thing in her situation. But she didn’t.

What I keep trying to get across with this whole thing is not that “my story is worse than yours” or anything else to make me feel “validated”, it’s that what happened to the OP is in no way, shape or form a rape. SHE invited him, SHE told him to bring alcohol, SHE gave consent by saying “not without a condom”, and SHE let him have sex with her.

All I’m trying to do is explain that THAT is not rape. Rape is when you are taken by force, without consent, and that is NOT the case with the OP. I don’t appreciate being told that I’m full of shit and I’m blaming the “victim”. I don’t appreciate being told that I’m wrong, because in this case, I’m 100% correct. She was NOT raped. She screwed up and she’s looking for someone else to blame for her screwup. Which is plainly evident when you read BOTH her questions about being “taken advantage of”.

It’s important to me for those on the thread who say I’m heartless and full of shit, and abhorent and misogynistic to try to comprehend what REAL rape is, and to stop saying that this girl is a rape victim. She had sex with a total asshole, I’ll give her that much, but I’ve had sex with a couple of assholes in the past. I didn’t whine about it and try to blame the other person. I let it happen, so I was the one at fault. I could have stopped it at any time and that would have been that, but I let it happen. She did the same thing, and I can’t stress enough times that what happened to her is NOT and will NEVER be rape. THAT is why this is so important to me.

wundayatta's avatar

It seems like this is a point of principle with you, but it doesn’t seem that applying a name about what happened to her hurts you. I don’t get it. I hear what you say over and over, but how does it hurt you if she wants to call it rape or not?

Also, I do believe there are women’s organizations that would call it rape. They are believe that marital rape is a serious problem. Women don’t feel like they can deny their husbands because it’s their job to take care of their husband’s sexual needs. There are a host of other social conventions that make it difficult for a woman to say no when she really wants to say no. That’s true not just for marriages, but for other less consecrated situations.

So there are a number of people who would consider what your husband did in talking “you into it” to be rape. I suspect that WOAR (women organized against rape) would have a more inclusive definition. Most people have heard of date rape.

Personally, I don’t think it’s right for a man to pressure a woman into sex, unless it’s part of a game and all the participants understand the rules. I was raised to believe the first no is the only no that is needed. I hope my daughter never meets a man who isn’t like that.

I do not intend to invalidate your position. I’m just trying to understand where the vehemence comes from. So far, your explanations don’t seem to add up for me. It feels like there’s something else there—and if there is, I’m sure it’s private and there’s no need to discuss it. I hope you don’t feel like I’m attacking you.

iamthemob's avatar

@wundayatta – “Rape” is something that, when accused of it, can ruin your life. This guy was a subtle, conniving, abusive and perhaps assaulting asshole – but if we don’t relegate rape to cases, legally, where there was a clear lack of consent, and the rest to lesser forms of sexual battery and assault, we actually work to potentially decrease the overall likelihood of rape convictions because we have more false or questionable claims to work through.

“Date rape” is not really a crime – it is a crime if it is in fact rape, but date rape is a name for a cultural phenomenon brought on by, in parts, (1) a culture that pushes sexual aggression in men, and (2) the pressure on women to maintain “purity.” There are other factors as well, but we really, really need to be careful with the term.

The_Idler's avatar

@iamthemob not to mention (3) alcohol

iamthemob's avatar

@The_Idler – Well, alcohol is more a factor in general bad decisions – once it gets involved, everyone has to accept the stupidity associated.

Even a drunk person can clearly refuse consent, though – and sometimes, when you’re drunk, that refusal may be more blunt and clear than if you’re sober.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@wundayatta Since you really don’t seem to understand, I’ll try to explain my standpoint as briefly as I can. PLEASE understand I’m not angry at you at all, I’m angry about the subject and some of the responses.

It pisses me off that some people have agreed that the OP’s story could be considered rape because it’s absolutely, 100% NOT rape. She did something stupid and got herself into a bad situation. Nothing anyone says about the scenario could MAKE it rape. And it pisses me the fuck off that her “cry of date rape” was validated by several people because THAT gives her a reason to keep doing stupid shit and blaming other people for it.

Her posting this story, then seeing responses that say “yes, that’s rape” pisses me the everliving fuck off, especially after seeing her second post about being supposedly taken advantage of yet again. Everyone who told her “yes that could be considered rape” gave the OP an “out” of taking full responsibility for herself, and showed her that it’s okay for her to put the blame on someone else.

That’s why this bothers me so much and why I’m so pissed off about it. Our society is becoming more and more about “it’s someone else’s fault” or “someone else made me do it”, instead of people manning up and saying “yeah, that was my fault.” or “I screwed up”. And several of the responses on this question threw this girl right back into that idiotic frame of mind. Makes me want to scream.

iamthemob's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – I understand where your anger is coming from – I’d like to say that I appreciate your attempt to reign it in, and explain your position.

WillWorkForChocolate's avatar

@iamthemob Ha! That was actually me attempting to not asplode. I’m not having a particularly tolerable day today.

iamthemob's avatar

@WillWorkForChocolate – you didn’t apologize – but you did reign in more than you think, I think. ;-)

wilma's avatar

What concerns me about this is that rape is a serious crime, and accusing someone of it can absolutely ruin their life, even if they are found in court to be innocent of that crime. (Being a jerk is not a crime so we won’t go there.)
When (some of) you say that the situation that @AmberM88 describes is absolutely rape, I think you may be doing a disservice to a man who really is not guilty of rape.

Response moderated (Writing Standards)

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