General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Arizona's new immigration law, just who IS the "illegals" in the law?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (21974 points ) April 30th, 2010

Exactly who is going to be the “illegal aliens” of this new law of Arizona’s? With this new law in Arizona part of it operates;

[“The new Arizona law requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect they are in the United States illegally.

Under the law, police would be able to detain an individual based merely on the suspicion that he or she entered the country illegally. But one of the changes—which had been adopted by state lawmakers Thursday night—says police could stop suspected illegal immigrants only while enforcing some other law or ordinance.

An officer could only ask about an immigrant’s legal status, for example, while investigating that person for speeding, loitering or some other offense.”]

Kind of sounds like if you look Hispanic you might get stopped more because your car sat idling in fron of a store too long, your stereo was too loud, you dropped a gum wrapper, your merge between lanes was suspect, etc. That in order to ask “are you legal, do you have papers?” A lot of BS fishing explorditions will be taking place. But, will people dressed in traditional Middle Eastern dress, have thick accents, look Asian etc be stopped and asked if they are aliens on a work visa, here for school, etc and if their visas are current? Or will the only one under the umbrella of “illegal” have a Hispanic look? There are many illegal aliens who overstayed their visa but because they were from Europe they slide under the radar and no one really looks at them (I use to know some).

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125 Answers

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

For Arizona, they’re targeting Mexicans. I’m pretty sure an Australian guy doesn’t get checked here.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

Ugh, they are completely nuts over there. Have you seen this? I am utterly disgusted by this backwards thinking!

jrpowell's avatar

It pretty much removes probable cause. It doesn’t matter since they can say that you look like you are from Poland. Now you are detained and they need to search you for weapons so they can safely hold you while you come up with your documentation.

This is going to be used against anyone the cops want to fuck with. And I look like a hippie so I refuse to enter the state until the law is ruled as unconstitutional.

I’m just wondering how long it will take for people to start calling the cops to report the “brown” person across the street.

gemiwing's avatar

Canadians. They go after anyone who’s polite and wears those nifty hats.

Truly? That is some bullshit. So let’s say they have tons of illegals causing drug wars. Fine. Really think the guys in charge are going to be loitering? Let’s say there are 100,000 illegals in one city. Of those, ten are drug dealers/criminals etc. So the “smart” idea is to stop all 100,000 people to find ten? Assuming each stop requires fifteen minutes (call in and check, wait for procurement of documents etc) then you’ve just spent 25,000 hours looking for ten people.

There has to be a smarter way. The big fish will still get away and likely aren’t living in the States in the first place.

Why not just go ahead and allow people to immigrate legally in numbers that actually represent the amount of people who want to come here. Let them be legal so they can find jobs that they can support their families on so they don’t need to turn to drugs in the first place? Why not offer them the opportunity to graduate from a community college and advance themselves- and us by improving our country?

I’m so heart-sickened by people claiming that this is their country just because they got here first. This is not a line for the school bus- this is America.

CMaz's avatar

“So the “smart” idea is to stop all 100,000 people to find ten?”

No it is to deport all 1000,000 illegals and that includes the ten.

The key word here is ILLEGALS.

gemiwing's avatar

@ChazMaz We need those other 90K to pick our food, clean our homes, babysit our kids and wash our cars

Nullo's avatar

@gemiwing Maybe – and this is just a wild guess – our own low-income and unemployed people will take the jobs. That stuff about “jobs that nobody else wants to do” is baloney.

gemiwing's avatar

@Nullo Doubtful for the pay rate

ETA, this is the last off-topic I’ll post on the question. I have a horrible habit of late of de-railing, so PM’s it is.

talljasperman's avatar

Don’t worry after global warming turns both the US and Mexico into wastelands, Canada will let both Mexicans and American’s in… but be quick about it our laws are changing too

gorillapaws's avatar

So Republicans are for increasing the role and scope of government here? Are they going to raise taxes to cover the increased cost?

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

The provision that stops must be done in the course of routine police duties will indeed result in uneven application of the law.

Cars containing individuals who look foreign or from which non-English music or speech can be heard will be selectively scrutinized for even the most trivial infraction or pseudo-infraction.

A non-white person working on a trash collection truck will be stopped if a single fragment of trash should be left on the ground.

A suspect person will be stopped for a dirty or crooked licence plate while a white registered sex offender hanging around a children’s playground will not attract police attention.

The police’s attention will come to be misdirected as their targeting of anyone foreign looking or sounding will set their priorities for surveillance and enforcement of even the most trivial of regulations.

lillycoyote's avatar

@gemiwing I think @ChazMaz is right. Do you have any idea how much your Sunday dinner of a roast chicken, vegetable and salad would cost you if you had to pay Americans to do the dirty work, if they were willing, of rendering, gutting and cutting up half frozen chickens in the high pressure factory setting in which they are processed? If Americans did the back breaking work of picking lettuce and spending 8 or 10 hours hunched over in mushroom houses harvesting mushrooms? Do you know where your food comes from? A great deal of agricultural work is seasonal, that’s why there are “migrant” farm workers. It doesn’t provide full time, year round work for people. On a family farm, there is always work to be done. In “factory farming” it is not the case. Americans have been fighting this battle for a long time. It’s one of the reasons slavery was such a big issue in the agricultural south as opposed to the industrial north. You have to have a way to have workers available when the work needs to be done. And not have to pay them to sit around when there isn’t work to do.

YARNLADY's avatar

The illegal aliens in the law refers to any person who is in this country without a valid passport, or visa.

kheredia's avatar

I bet if Arizona could kick out the Native Americans too, they would.. It’s too bad they were here first.. I can’t wait to see all the little white boys working the fields.. like that’s ever going to happen. LOL!!

Arisztid's avatar

I am glad I do not live in Arizona.

I hope no similar anti “brown” people laws are started in Michigan. I am too old to put up with this crap.

People say how racism is getting better in America. Just recently there was this thing about Texas’ new white Christian oriented school “curriculum.” I do not know if that actually passed but, if it did, that and this new law in Arizona says that America is heading the wrong way.

I am also damned glad I did not have children. I do not like the way things are going and, if I had the choice to be childless to do all over again, I would make the same decision.

Pandora's avatar

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’m glad I don’t live in Arizona.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I went to your link. All I can say is WOW. I can’t believe they would also try to keep teachers with spanish accents from teaching English. If we go with that thought all french teachers should be french and all spanish teachers should be spanish. That is ridiculous.
I’m glad students are deciding to go to colleges else where.
I heard on the news how they weren’t going to profile. Sure their not. They are going to stop non ethnic people as well and ask for their documentation as well.

FutureMemory's avatar

Isn’t Arizona the state that voted against making Martin Luther King day a holiday? They also don’t observe daylight savings…wtf is going on there…bunch of mavericks!

judochop's avatar

If you are not an illegal then you have nothing to worry about.

Pandora's avatar

Wouldn’t it be funny if they get rid of all the mexicans but are left with all the non ethnic drug dealers who work for the mexican cartel. I would so LMAO
Hell, the cops probably get a cut anyway. If they really want to clean up they should start from law enforment on up.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

The problem is that now it’s legal to harass Mexicans: illegal or legal immigrants.

The rights of people here legally have just been severely compromised.

If Arizona was an old man, I’d say he’s finally lost it. Arizona is just nutty with all their controversy this week. It’s like the whole state is on a bender.

Except for Phoenix I suppose. Their mayor came out and said these other regions are completely off the rails and don’t represent the whole of Arizona.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@judochop Not true at all. They may not have to worry about going to jail or being deported. But people of color have to worry about getting stopped incessantly and having to continuously prove their right to be here.

Pandora's avatar

@judochop, I was born here and my parents where born in Puerto Rico which is a common wealth so they are also American Citizens, but I still wouldn’t like to go to Arizona right now. I don’t expect to be stopped for the color of my skin any more than any other american. It has nothing to do with having nothing to be worried about. I’m an American and should only be stopped if I am in violation of some law. Not to check my pedigree!
I don’t ask non ethnics for their papers so why should I be asked for mine. Why should I show proof. Its ok to show proof for other things but not because I happen to be driving by.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

People of color.
Wow you don’t hear that much these days.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy The term “people of color” is the politically correct term when referring to “minority” people with the term “minority” being outdated. If you are in a University setting you would hear the term quite often.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

That term is why political correctness need to go away.
That term was coined by people in the 50’s and 60’s in direct reference to black people and it was decidedly not complimentary when white people spoke of it.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy well now that is a topic for another thread ;)

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

true. My stance remains the same on this… harassing an ethnic group as a matter of policy = bad.

RedPowerLady's avatar

now that I agree on

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

YARNLADY ” The illegal aliens in the law refers to any person who is in this country without a valid passport, or visa.” That is all good but if some Russian who was here on a student visa but dropped out and over stayed his visa if he walked right pass the cops at the donut shop how would they know? To ask they would have to have some infraction or crime to investigate to ask him. If he spoke and revealed his accent he might be stopped for something as flippant as jay walking where they could ask him but if he was driving he would look no different from a Swede, German, Kiwi, etc. So to catch all those over stayed Europeans they are going to stop 60% of the non-ethic looking people? What about Middle Eastern? And if they started that what flax will come from it and would that be fodder for Al Qaeda? There are 10s of thousands of illegals that don’t look like the media depiction of illegals.

I guess if you look like you came across the border Arizona wants to drop the hammer on you but if you sneak in through Phoenix airport you are good to go.

judochop's avatar

Has anyone stopped to look at how many illegal “citizens” actually live in Arizona? On top of that the growing number of illegals in the USA is pushing somewhere close to 20 Million. This is a problem. A major problem and I am sorry if “people of color” are going to get stopped more then “white” people. I personally do not care. Something has to be done to change this. Honestly, I like this idea better than border patrol or a private security company policing our borders. My family is heavily interracialy mixed some of them being from South America. I assume they probably feel a little more on point and less relaxed in their home town of Mesa. Honestly though, how many of you actually believe that the police force will keep up with doing their job anyway? Have you read the percentages of Hispanic law enforcement in the state of Arizona? I personally do not care the color of your skin or the language you speak, just don’t do it here illegally. Be brown, black, white or purple and speak your own language…..I do not care. It is about time we made a drastic move to do something.

RedPowerLady's avatar

does someone else want to get that ^^? I simply don’t have the patience

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

There’s the whole “not infringing upon the constitutional rights of those that are here legally” debate.

Criminalizing being Mexican sounds like a poor idea all around.

Pandora's avatar

@RedPowerLady LMAO, I know what you mean. But some people can’t visualize the big picture. When or if his rights get infringed on then he’ll sing a different tune.

plethora's avatar

I was really under the impression that being “nonjudgemental” was practically a Godlike attribute on Fluther. Yet, the majority of posts I have seen regarding the AZ law are condemnatory. I’m thinking that if you (and I) have not lived in AZ for a few years, we probably are not qualified to comment at all.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Oooo this is going to get good isn’t it? hee hee

judochop's avatar

Oh I am sure I will not be winning friends here even though I am taking the time to research you all will still sit and give @RedPowerLady a few great answers simply because she feels disgusted by me being honest. Rock on Fluther. A real debate is not really what seems to be at hand here, it seems that you just want me to agree with you and nod and hold hands and pray for world peace. Fine! You win!
You are right, the law is stupid. It will target brown, red, yellow and black people more than whites and that is just horrible. Really. I see the big picture and I see laugh that you may get for supporting such a racist law… Oh my, how close minded of me to not agree with you. Another win for Fluther. Thanks for actually arguing your point and supporting your answers. I know I will get my high five someday.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Pandora your response is so refreshing!

@plethora Damn right I can comment when something infringes on the rights of others especially when it does so at such an openly obvious level. And no do not expect me to be nice about stomping on the rights of others. It is a horrid thing and deserves angry responses.

jrpowell's avatar

@judochop :: And the something that needs to be done is open the borders. Let the free market decide. Open the border and let people walk over it and give them a card. Now they can be here and pay taxes when they get a job. They are going to be here so you might as well document them and tax them.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@judochop All I have the patience to say right now is that this argument has been done over and over again. It is tedious to re-argue it because you have a belief that “you don’t care” if others rights are trampled on so long as your perceived problem is solved. Hurt many for the rights of the few?

Pandora's avatar

@plethora, Drug cartels exist here because we purchase the stuff. Supply and demand. I simply don’t believe that this will stop drugs from entering our country. What we need is tougher laws on drug users and stop seeing them as victims. The first time they decided to use they were breaking the law and knew it well.

thriftymaid's avatar

The way I understand the law is that IF you are stopped or detained for a possible infraction, you may be required to show immigration documents. There is a group of law enforcement officers who have filed a suit regarding the constitutionality of the Arizona law, stating that Arizona is attempting to regulate immigration, which is charged to the national government in the constitution.

Arisztid's avatar

@judochop I am certain that you would care more if you were in the group of people who are going to be hit by this.

judochop's avatar

@RedPowerLady I am not really for the stance “hurt many for the rights of a few.” And I agree with @johnpowell open the borders up. Why even have a border in the first place. However, if the border is going to be there then use it.

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

@judochop In another time and another place you would have been a member of the SA.

judochop's avatar

@Arisztid I am certain that my stance would be just the same. I have been to countries before where I was very disliked for my skin color. It is a law and while I am very leftist on many things the one thing I see wrong (in my opinion) is that people do not respect the law nor do they like it when you feel targeted. I agree that targeting people is probably not the right thing to do so I ask, what is your solution to this problem?

RedPowerLady's avatar

@judochop
I am not really for the stance “hurt many for the rights of a few.” How not so? You said you don’t care if all people of color are stopped more than the few non people of color. All because a few people perceive the border issue as a problem.

Now opening up the border is an idea I can get behind.

RedPowerLady's avatar

gtg feed the baby and bed, will check back in tomorrow, nite flutherites

Arisztid's avatar

@judochop I do not have a solution, however, racial profiling is not it.

You were in countries where you were disliked due to your skin color. Try that in your nation of citizenship. You could, and did, come home and it stopped. Try it when your ethnic origins are disliked at home.

We are not going to reach an agreement so there is no need for us to speak.

jrpowell's avatar

@judochop :: States have borders but I can easily move from Oregon to Vermont. I would love to move to Canada. But the process is so complex and I lack the qualifications. It isn’t easy to move to another country. I would have left in 2001 if I could have found a job, and apartment in Canada.

Let the free market do its thing. Workers will simply shift around. If I land a job in Norway it would be nice to avoid all the workers VISA bullshit.

judochop's avatar

@RedPowerLady YES! Open the border. Fight for that please. I personally would love to move to Vancouver BC but I can’t do it legally. I have tried and I was not allowed. It would make sense to open the borders to every country but I will not piss and moan about being stopped by a police officer while driving or while exiting a building or while walking to the pool. I am not breaking the law thus I do not much care if the police around me are working for once to try and enforce the said law. I am sorry that this law will target those of you that are of color however if you do not like the law then work on finding a solution that works. I am not trying to start a fight I am looking for a better answer and until there is one I am for supporting this law
@Dr_Lawrence really? Really? I think not, but I will give it to you for a reasonable attempt to slam me.

Pandora's avatar

@judochop Its not stopping at just checking for papers. Its even going to affect those legally here. Read the link that @Simone_De_Beauvoir put up. At the rate they are going its going to be a police state. How long before other states go with it. Phoenix is the only city so far trying to fight it. They think it is also a bad solution for their problems. I sympatize with their crime but I bet you the real crimminals will never be caught. Not because they can’t find them but because they line their pockets. Its always the little guy who will be screwed because he doesn’t have enough money to buy his freedom. Guilty or not.

Dr_Lawrence's avatar

@Arisztid Maybe he did, after all!

judochop's avatar

@Pandora You think that some of the illegals here can “buy” their freedom? Probably not here in the states but in some other countries yes. I know two people who did it in Columbia.

Pandora's avatar

@judochop Money can buy you anything. It can buy you fear, intimidation and lawyers, cops and politicians. You just need enough of it. Just look at the big wigs in this country that get away with all sorts of stuff. They go to a fancy jail for a few months and get to move back into their expensive luxury homes afterwards. The little guy just ends up taking the rap for the big guy.
I bet if they bought about the death penalty for the selling of drugs or for being a cop on the take, than things would get cleaned up a lot faster.

plethora's avatar

@judochop Your comments on this thread make the only coherent sense that I can see here.

Pandora's avatar

@plethora Dagger through my heart

zophu's avatar

I don’t know if anyone’s covered this; but, to me, this seems like a scheme Arizona is using to scare illegal immigrants away to other states. I see no other purpose for passing the law.

plethora's avatar

@Pandora,......oh you know I didn’t mean you..:)

judochop's avatar

Where is the debate? Opening borders is the answer? Ignoring the problem and just giving everyone that comes in here a pat on the back and a free hospital bed is the best answer? How about giving them breaks on college tuitions and specialized programs too? How about we even give them section eight housing with no live in cap? Why not give them a break on property taxes and possibly a part of our stimulus package to, they will need a good start so that they can get on the road to the American dream right? Also, to all the bleeding hearts here, will you give one of the illegals your hospital bed if need be? After all you have a warm house to return to, go be sick there and let someone else get free medical help. Will you be the ones to pay more in taxes for programs to help them get a “head start?” Will you be the ones to donate your time to teach english and to learn spanish so that we can dissolve a language barrier for a better economy? We should also give them first time business loans tax breaks so that they can get up and running faster in this “free economy”. Possibly even a few parks named after them and a few roads named after them why not a few spanish only libraries? Do we as a country not already do most of this? Am I mistaken somewhere? Is Arizona actually taking away the rights of the people or are they adding to their rights, services and lending?
This is a still a free country and for some it is almost totally free. You can burn a flag here, vote and complain as you like at the same time, all while dressed in a hot dog suit covered in dog piss if you so desire. America is not a world government like many think it is. We are a sinking ship leading the world in to economic disaster. This new law in Arizona is to help plug up one of the many holes in our hull. We had better start grabbing the hands of our neighbors while we can still reach them because all this caring that you are doing here on the internet is going to be needed in the real world when the shit hits the fan.

Pandora's avatar

@plethora….Then what was that long pause for??:(

plethora's avatar

@Pandora that long pause was because I didnt see your post..:)

Pandora's avatar

@judochop I don’t think opening the border will keep those meaning to sell drugs from entering illegally. They will still try to sneak across because they can’t bring the stuff in through the boarder entrance. They’ll still have the same crime issues.

plethora's avatar

@judochop Great answer!!!!

judochop's avatar

@plethora thank you very much.
@Pandora I do not think that the “war on drugs’ is the issue at hand. Drugs continue to destroy small American towns all through the midwest. The largest killer in that factor would be meth. Which I hope I am not to far left by saying is a “white mans” drug. Seeing as how it is killing out primarily more white areas than border states (I need a better way to phrase this). What is being done to control this? Not much as can be seen in a recent documentary called American Meth. The war on drugs is an ongoing issue that will forever be an issue and is supposed to be controlled by the ATF and CIA but that is another entirely different thread that I am open to discuss if you’d like.

Pandora's avatar

@judochop From what I was lead to understand by the media, drugs was what motivated this action because of the increased crime it is creating. But at last, I’m getting tired and its way past my bed time. Another time.

judochop's avatar

@Pandora Good night. Thanks for keeping this going for a little bit. I love it when Fluther debates. I know that drugs play an interval part in this law so does many, many other things.

Pandora's avatar

txs, good nite.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

judochop ”This new law in Arizona is to help plug up one of the many holes in our hullThis new law in Arizona is to help plug up one of the many holes in our hull.” I can appreciate your passion, I believe all nations have a right to control their borders even when it is N. Korea and Iran busting Americans that trespass. I have no issue with that or even if crime or other law breaking was the issue. For me the issue is how it will be applied. If it were going to be like a flag in a football game the infraction will be metered out evenly if you are the All American Pro Bowler or the no-named 3rd string replacement. I know there are 10s of thousands at least of illegal people here but from Europe. I don’t know about the media there but here it seems that every time you see illegals depicted they are 1st Hispanic, second they are Chinese. I knew a gal (years back) who came here on a work visa, the visa ran out, she never re-applied, she didn’t go back to Yugoslavia, she stayed here and worked under-the-table. She didn’t get minimum wage most of the time but she wasn’t paying taxes either (something many Hispanic illegals do). How is the nation benefiting from 10s of thousands or more European illegals not paying taxes but enjoying the perks of living here? When you see a Caucasian woman driving her Miata blonde hair whipping in the brease while the top is down, do you know if is she is a Russian on an expired visa or an American Valley Girl on vacation? If she made an unsafe lane change and the cops in Arizona stopped her and noticed an accent are they going to demand she produce papers? If they don’t that is where the law gets squirrelly. To cast a big net to get the fish not indigenous to the area and rake in many of the fish you are trying to protect is a bit flawed. I just can’t see how it will be applied evenly and if it is not, then there is something fishy even with a land locked state.

kheredia's avatar

Based on some illegals that I have spoken with, a lot of these people are not interested in staying in the U.S. They tend to prolong their stay because it would cost them too much money to come back and work. If there was some sort of work permit issued to them, I can assure you that a lot of them would only come for seasonal work. The only thing that brings illegals to this country is the opportunity to work. Sure, some of them just stay and start a new life here, but it’s not because they really want to, it’s because their country doesn’t give them the opportunities that this country does. Giving them work permits would allow for the U.S. government to keep track of these people and they would all be paying taxes. I just don’t understand why Americans are so unwilling to compromise. An illegal alien is perfectly happy working for 8 dollars an hour because it’s way more than they’ll ever make in their country, and we need the cheap labor. It’s ridiculous to think that we can do without it, and it’s ridiculous to think that Americans will do that kind of work for 8 dollars an hour. Let’s be realistic people! Kicking them all out is NOT the solution!

Pandora's avatar

Here goes a possible solution. Why not allow Mexicans to turn in their employers. They tell where they are working illegally and their employers go to jail and they are promised citizenship and citizenship for others who work with them (provided any of them don’t have a police records of being a fellon). They and their families get to stay and work legally. Then sweat shops will become nervous and will not hire illegals. It resolves two issues. If sweat shops can’t remain open they will either move to mexico or at least go out of business. No jobs for illegals trying to enter because everyone is too nervous to hire them. If its a farm they get shut down and their property is sold.

CMaz's avatar

For all of you that think that removing illegal aliens is some sort of bad thing.

Don’t get upset when you wake up one morning and me and my family is camping in your back yard. Since you are so generous with your property and land.

And if any of us get hurt or sick while bathing on your porch.I will make sure that the hospital sends you the bill.

Also, I will work but that money is going to go back home to my other family members. You will not get a dime for you “kindness”.

plethora's avatar

@ChazMaz Fabulous answer….GA

judochop's avatar

@Pandora That is a great idea. It would eliminate the need to profile and would also help business in the community that exists already. You should write it up and send it to Arizona and all the other border states.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

ChazMaz ¬ ” Don’t get upset when you wake up one morning and me and my family is camping in your back yard.” If all the Hispanic illegals were bounced you and yours might find yourself there anyhow unless you have a boat load of money. No one wants to be played a chump. They are not here illegal and it would send the wrong message to allow them to get away with it. But there will be a great ripple effect. This nation (at least a good portion of it) wants to boot them all out but they don’t think about the ripple effect that will come when they are gone. You think houses are expensive now (even in this down turn) the only way you will get into a house that is not a roach trap (and then maybe not) you will have to have credit so clean it squeaks and brig your down payment in a Brinks truck. With American union labor that house could easily cost $60,000 more and then some. Those cherries or raspberries at the market, instead of being $1,10lb they might be more like $5.80lb and for a nation tipping the scales hippo style making healthy food only affordable to the rich don’t seem to make much sense. The cost of many good you hardly think about now will go through the roof. Bounce the illegals, but 1st America has to wean itself off the fruits of their cheap labor. America wants to play that song the band is very, very expensive.

But my thing is not who is targeted by the law or their right to be here but how the law is applied, you can’t do it in a fair unbigoted way. Since you don’t know who the “illegals” are basically ANYONE who looks “un-American” has to be stopped and their papers demanded. So if they are wearing ethnic garb, a hijab, abaya, salwar kamiz, etc and they get stopped for traffic or such THEY MUST be peppered to produce papers, unless the cop reads minds he won’t know if they have a valid visa, was born here or anything; and he can’t be afraid of the political fall out stopping a vetting tons of Middle Eastern people (but Al Qaeda will have a field day with it). Anyone who isn’t in a gray flannel suit or casual dress from the mall speaking perfect English or urban slang could be an illegal and has to be asked. (to be fair as the law is now)

kheredia ” An illegal alien is perfectly happy working for 8 dollars an hour because it’s way more than they’ll ever make in their country, and we need the cheap labor.” We have cheap labor, they just aren’t allowed to work more than 3 hours a day and not much beyond flipping burgers or tossing newspapers. The people are breaking the law so their should be some penalty, however those who want to boot them all out I would wonder how many of them would still go to work if they were told starting July they were only going to make minimum wage? You can’t live on minimum wage (maybe you could but I hardly think they would give up all the toys to do it). I am a union man and my union has been fighting the Governator here in Cali for years because he wants to bust all of us back to minimum wage and no one cares to do that. If we here in America had a work force over 16yrs that would work for minimum wage doesn’t logic tell you they would be working and the illegals would not find the work so they would not come? Almost like trying to say you hate drug cartels while at the same time you can’t get your day started unless you snort a line off the mirror 1st. If everyone were not snorting the line the dealer would not have a product he could sell.

Pandora's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Its true that things will cost more but taxes may decrease because we are able to tax those who weren’t paying taxes before. I don’t care where you are in the world. There will always be those who will provide cheap labor because of lack of education. We still have plenty of kids who don’t graduate high school or get passed along and they will only have hard labor as a choice of employment because they don’t qualify for anything else.
Sweat shops as it is only make things more expensive in the long run because they make it difficult for honest businesses to function because they can’t compete.

laureth's avatar

@Pandora – Illegals pay taxes a lot of the time, especially if they use a fake Social Security number to get a job. (They can’t use a real SSN, because they don’t have one, so all the tax money you and I get back after doing our taxes, they don’t get. Maybe we should thank them for helping pay for our old folks’ Social Security.) Since the IRS appears to be already figuring this “illegal” income into the equation, it’s unlikely to lower our taxes if they suddenly come up that much short.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@laureth Larvae for you and a star.

judochop's avatar

@laureth….. We should thank them for not collecting their social security on a minimum wage job that they work for possibly a few years at most? How is that? Thank someone for breaking the law? And what about the money they make? Should I thank them for putting it back in to the community to? So it is ok to break the law as long as a few pennies on the dollar come back to the “old folks?” WTF?

plethora's avatar

@laureth…..Quoting @judochop Couldnt say it any better and maybe you need to hear it twice…..HELLO!! “We should thank them for not collecting their social security on a minimum wage job that they work for possibly a few years at most? How is that? Thank someone for breaking the law? And what about the money they make? Should I thank them for putting it back in to the community to? So it is ok to break the law as long as a few pennies on the dollar come back to the “old folks?” WTF?”

laureth's avatar

Wow, @plethora – thanks so much for that.

Yes they’re lawbreakers and yes there needs to be some regulation. On the other hand, this isn’t a perfect world where everything is pure black and pure white. There are shades of grey. And in this case, should we put all of our energy into the fight to make it a perfect world, full steam ahead and damn the costs, or should we perhaps look at the world as it really is and do the best we can, realizing that while there needs to be some regulation, it’s not all bad?

The immigrant situation reminds me a whole lot of the South in other ways. For instance, they really hate black people down there in case you didn’t already know that. ;) In fact, not so long ago they were subject to lynchings and didn’t get to vote, and before that, they were owned as chattel. Yet, as much as they hate the black folks down there, they also needed them, especially before the Civil War. Did the rich white guys really hate the blacks so much that they wanted to send away the slaves? No, they sent people out to catch the runaway ones, they liked/hated them so much.

Illegals are kind of like that. People hate them so much, but they really like the income (both in taxes paid by illegals and the money saved in employing them). If people hate them so much, why do they keep finding employment? Why do people keep buying $2.99 strawberries instead of boycotting them until they hire “real Americans” to slave away, picking them? Yes, if we hate illegals so much, why do we love the results?

Did you get that all, @plethora, or do you need to see it again?

kheredia's avatar

I wonder if @plethora and @ChazMaz will be the first to jump at the job “opportunities” left behind by the illegals since they both think that we don’t need them here. That’ll be the day I’ll leave this issue alone.

plethora's avatar

@laureth I don’t hate illegals. I just don’t want to support them and all their descendents. Nor do I want our country destroyed by an excessive number of immigrants, legal or illiegal. CA right now has to build one new elementary school PER DAY every day of the year just to keep up with the influx of immigrants, legal and illegal. Nor do I think we should spend one dime on someone who has broken our law to be here. That is not hate. That is obeying the law. I don’t get a break when I speed because it is the law here. I may not agree with the law and the cop does not have to hate me to give me a ticket. Nor have I ever encountered a cop who acted like he/she hated me. But they still wrote me a ticket. What am I missing here?

kheredia's avatar

@plethora did you not get what @laureth said earlier? How are you supporting any of them? They pay taxes too. Aren’t schools made with tax money? And by the way, we are all immigrants in one way or another. Unless of course you are a Native American. Otherwise, you are not native to this land and your ancestry traces back to a different country. I don’t buy the whole “we have to pay for illegals to get medical attention and an education”, that’s all bs you guys focus on to feel better about yourselves. They work, they pay taxes, and a lot of them are too afraid to even step in a hospital unless it’s a life or death situation. So to me, that argument is just not good enough,.

laureth's avatar

I don’t hear the kind of virulent language used to describe speeding motorists as I hear coming out of the Right in regards to illegals. The cop gives you the ticket and he’s on his way. They don’t demonstrate in front of the Capitol, etc., because speeders piss them off so much.

Here’s an interesting page from Snopes that contradicts a lot of the angsty emails going around about immigrants. And another. I don’t see too many screeds like that about speeders, for example. Whether or not you personally hate immigrants, there’s a lot of hate radiating towards them nowadays.

Also, I saw the video (was it you who pointed me to it?) where the guy went on about the gumballs and said that California “had to build a new elementary school every day of the year” to accommodate the children of immigrants. It sounded high, but I didn’t care enough at the time to put in the research. Now that it’s being restated as evidence here, I did some Googling around, and learned this—in the four states of California, Nevada, Arizona, and Hawaii, all together, approximately 40 K-12 schools were built in 2009. (Source is on page 16 of this PDF, from a professional journal of the school-building industry.) If your stat were correct, I would expect to see at least 365 just Elementary schools built in just California in 2009, but it just isn’t so.

Moral of the story: a lot of the stats going around about what a drain the illegals are on the economy are simply not true. They seem to be fabricated to inflame rather than inform.

plethora's avatar

@laureth Have you heard me use any virulent language? I read your sources and the conclusions seem to be determined by whose sources one wants to believe.

Let’s go right to the scene of the people who are affected the most. Put yourself in this woman’s shoes. Here

laureth's avatar

That said, I also know that Rome fell in large part because of an influx of immigrants. There just wasn’t enough of a “Roman” identity anymore, among other problems. I’m not necessarily pro-immigrant, and unlike the Left, I do recognize and appreciate that they’re called “illegal” for a reason. Yet I do my best to keep a real view of the situation, and dispel misinformation when I find it about this, and other, topics.

laureth's avatar

I looked at your video. I see one woman complaining about illegals. While I don’t doubt that there are many like her, and lots of illegals in AZ, I still prefer to look at facts instead of being swayed by one person’s heartfelt story. “The plural of anecdote is not data,” as they say.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@plethora ”I don’t hate illegals. I just don’t want to support them and all their descendents.” Still these “illegals” are still quite nebulous. There are a lot of illegals that sneak in through the front door right off the tarmac. Like a computer virus they get here by looking legit and when you stop looking then mutate into law breakers. You want to hunt them down too, if you are true to your word of treating all illegals the same? In Arizona who would get stopped and vetted for papers under the new law, <A> A blonde in a convertible with weak English and a strong Russian accent who has an electronic translator beside her in the seat who ran a stoplight; <B> A Hispanic male in a Corona beer cap with near perfect English who music was way too loud; <C> A man stopped for speeding with an Irish accent and wearing a kilt; <D> An old Asian woman stopped because she went the wrong way in a one way street or <E> All of the above? If you thought anything short of “All the above” that is where the law is flawed. To carry out this law completely and fairly would you have to basically stop everyone who didn’t fit the picture of America (if that were even possible)? Not every citizen will speak fluent English and not ever person who are here illegally flubs and bitcher the language so how will you know who will get detained and who gets a pass? Lets face it we know who will really get stopped and who will get a pass with hardly a second look.

@laureth You go girl!

Silhouette's avatar

The law breaking people they are looking for are brown so the brown people are going to be suspects and there is no way around it. If the law breakers were clowns I’m pretty sure anyone wearing these shoes http://www.moonbattery.com/clown_shoes.jpg or has this nose http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_impact/2008/11/large_WallStreet.JPG is going to be stopped and questioned. One of my friends was hauled downtown one night because he fit the description of a burglar they were looking for. He had to prove he wasn’t the guy they wanted. I bet he wasn’t the only guy they took in before they found their man. Was it racial profiling? They were stopping a lot of 6’ white guys with brown eyes and brown hair looking for their one burglar and I don’t remember anyone getting their nose out of joint over it, including my friend who had to spend 8 hours of his life in the cop shop getting treated like a criminal.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette So the only “illegal immigrants” in this country are brown?
Not so. Way to go for supporting stereotypes.

laureth's avatar

@RedPowerLady – The words @Silhouette actually used were, “The law breaking people they are looking for are brown.” To me, it sounds not like @Silhouette is stereotyping, but that the people looking only for brown illegals are. Perhaps people in AZ are not looking for blond, blue-eyed illegals.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@laureth Did you read the rest of the response? I’ve heard this argument over and over again. If they look like criminals they will get stopped. Her friend who is a 6’ white guy got stopped b/c he fit the description of a burglar. That wasn’t racial profiling. So this isn’t either b/c the immigrants are brown. Just like if criminals looked like clowns they should be able to stop all clowns. I mean just look at the second sentence “if the law breakers were clowns then…” implying that the law breakers are brown. What am I missing?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Silhouette ” One of my friends was hauled downtown one night because he fit the description of a burglar they were looking for.” The difference here is there was a description of a person believed to have done the crime. The cops did not go around stopping every tall 6’ blonde white guy just to see if maybe he was smart enough to change his jacket or ditch it along the way. With this law no one has to see them scaling a wall or darting through someone’s ranch for them to be stopped; they are stopped simply because they are Hispanic looking (they don’t even have to be Hispanic, they could be Moroccan etc.). As laureth pointed out, they are not going to be looking for blonde haired, blue-eyed illegals. The woman I knew from Yugoslavia that overstayed you’d never have guessed if you passed her up at the mall or pumped gas next to her at the filing station. Is she never spoke, you could easily believe her from LA, Baton Rouge, Brooklyn, Charleston, or any other place in America but she wasn’t, and she was here with out papers just like all those “evil brown people” who snuck over the border.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady I never said they were all brown now did I, thanks for putting words in my mouth. Lets face it Arizona is struggling with the Mexico America border, if Arizona were snugged up close to the Canadian border and the Canadians were crossing en mass illegally they would be rounding up all the people who used an a at the end of each sentence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BFPt001PYU

Silhouette's avatar

@Hypocrisy Central My friend wasn’t scaling a wall or anywhere near the crime scene he was walking his dog in a neighborhood park and that’s it. He was stopped and hauled in for questioning based solely on his looks. Same deal this new Arizona law is proposing, it just wasn’t news worthy or a hot political issue at the time.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette So just because they are next to the Mexican border they should be able to pull over any brown person they want because well that is what an illegal immigrant would look like? That is essentially what you said above.

CMaz's avatar

“I wonder if plethora and ChazMaz will be the first to jump at the job “opportunities” left behind by the illegals.”

I have never been afraid to work, and I have done plenty. If I need the money I will do it, without hesitation.

The bottom line is it is the wrong way of doing it.
So if a drug dealer pays taxes we should hold a blind eye to it. Because he pays taxes?

There will be a price we will all have to pay in order to re stabilize the economy, and the country.

Problem is there are too many that use the excuse of, “who will do that work once they are gone.” First, they all won’t be gone, plenty that are here legally and second quit trying to be so lazy.

Ya have to do what you have to do. We got in this mess it is up to us to get out of it.
Not pass it off with excuses of laziness, fear and slave labor.

As far as the “racial profiling” issue goes. Do you think the Mexicans that are here legally are going to turn in their friends or family or their friends or family? Some, but No.

So then they are part of the problem too, not respecting the laws of this country they chose to be citizens of. With all due respect.

Silhouette's avatar

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Like I tried to illustrate before with the clown analogy and apparently failed spectacularly, they are looking for people who have committed a crime and in this instance the suspect description includes but is not limited to Hispanic.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette And that is racial profiling. An aspect of racism and stereotyping. So my first comment stands.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady All mine do too. And, before you decide my views are those of a racist I feel compelled to share some personal information on the board just this once. I’m a white female, married to a gorgeous black man and we have two children. So, no, I’m not a racist. I’m a realest. They are going to have to do a little racial profiling if they are going to get ahead of the cartels in Arizona. Either that or they should just hand them the keys to the city.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette I appreciate you sharing your personal information. Having said that I will also say that just b/c you are married to a black man and have children by him does not make you immune to supporting racist ideas.

CMaz's avatar

Why not leave the racism issue out of it. I am. Look at it as how to have a practical and realistic solution to the problem.

And no matter what there will be no easy or easy to swallow answer.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady Well, slap my ass and call me Sally, if I’d have know that 31 years ago I might have married the midget.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@ChazMaz Personally I don’t leave the racism out of the picture because it exits and is clear. However to make matters more easily solvable I could get behind that way of approaching the situation. Of course I don’t really see the problem in the first place. I think it’s easy to solve. Open the borders. And/Or Create conditions in America that make it so citizens do not have the need for drugs (or at least reduce the need).

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette So you are saying that if you would have known marrying a black man didn’t mean you were not racist you would have married someone else? huh? ~

CMaz's avatar

“I don’t leave the racism out of the picture because it exits and is clear.”
Including it in the discussion will just redirect it to being nothing more then a fight. A back door way to avoid the subject.

“Open the borders.’
And while we are at it. Leave your front door open. I might get hungry at 3am.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady Yes, that’s what I said. I’ll elaborate for those who have no sense of humor on a case by case bases. I was joking. :o)

RedPowerLady's avatar

@ChazMaz I do see your point about the racism sidetracking the immigration subject. In the case of this law however racial profiling is one of the primary complaints.

Umm.. okay if you are hungry enough to come eat at my house then so be it ;)

Silhouette's avatar

Jesus christ, I misspelled basis. Time to log off.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@judochop ”On top of that the growing number of illegals in the USA is pushing somewhere close to 20 Million. This is a problem. A major problem and I am sorry if “people of color” are going to get stopped more then “white” people. I personally do not care.” Do you know how many of those 20 million illegal aliens are in this nations that don’t look like the majority of illegal aliens? How would you go about finding and dealing with them then? And as far as if non-white people get stopped more and you could give a s***, maybe you ought to try it. I am a US citizen and in my life I have been stopped at least 7 time (could be more, so many I can’t remember all of them) I was stopped DWB. I was either in the wrong neighborhood (can’t see how that was, but it what was indicated), or the wrong type of car, or the wrong time of the evening, or a combination of the before. It gets to be a lot of fun you are trying to be on time to a wedding, doctor’s appointment, work or the show etc and have to explain why you were driving on the same public street as everyone else or what business you have that takes you to that neighborhood, or prove you own the vehicle you are driving simply because of what you look like. So much fun, you ought to try it, and if the sarcasm is especially dry and salty then you got a good batch.

@Pandora ”There will always be those who will provide cheap labor because of lack of education. We still have plenty of kids who don’t graduate high school or get passed along and they will only have hard labor as a choice of employment because they don’t qualify for anything else. Sweat shops as it is only make things more expensive in the long run because they make it difficult for honest businesses to function because they can’t compete.” So, as we fault the government for looking after Wall St. more than Main St. we take the least of Main St. and shove them in the sewers as the underclass, right? If they don’t have the grades to go to Harvard, Yale, or even Brown or they simply don’t have the money to go they should be work lackeys of America? In a sense we will still have the sweat shops they will be improved with the new subclass of Americans, at least the boss man won’t have to be bilingual anymore.

@ChazMaz, @RedPowerLady, @Silhouette it won’t be about racism at all if they apply the law equally. If a cop stops a woman and she has a strong accent (no matter what language) and she is weak in English and the cop detains her until she can prove she either is a citizen or her visa is in order then it is not racist. If the cop only requires Hispanics or Hispanic looking people to prove they belong but not the blonde while gal or the Black guy with a strong Jamaican for example THEN it is racist (well it is still racist if everyone who doesn’t appear as the cookie cutter American is detained and asked but at least it is evened out racism)

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central If a cop stops a woman simply b/c she has an accent that is still not okay. So now we must speak a certain way to avoid getting stopped by cops. When it comes to profiling the line is very thin. But I do agree if they are going to do it (which I wish they wouldn’t) they need to do it equally. But not just based on accents and skin colors, randomly b/c otherwise it is still the same population who doesn’t have to worry about getting stopped the good english speaking light skinned people. They could be immigrants as well. And IMO no one should be detained simply b/c they are not carrying their ID. I mean geez how many times have I left my ID at home on accident? Guess that means I’m deserving of being detained.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady That’s true, but I’d bet the bank the majority of the illegal immigrants in Arizona are going to turn out to be Hispanic and when they start hauling Hispanics in by the buss load with the 5 Black guys with a strong Jamaican accents or the two rouge blond Swedish illegals they stumble on, people are STILL going to scream racism. This is a no win situation.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette Yes but then the cry of racism wouldn’t be for racial profiling it would be against the issue of immigration itself which is another debate altogether.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady I disagree, same issue.

RedPowerLady's avatar

@Silhouette They do come from the same area yes. But the reason so many people are against the Arizona law is b/c of it’s implications in affecting legal citizens. Even some of those who agree with immigration laws in general are against this law in particular. So there is a difference. But then again I don’t think we will agree anyhow based on our previous discussion on the topic if you kwim.

Silhouette's avatar

@RedPowerLady I know exactly what you mean and you’re correct, you and I will never agree on this issue, you think it’s racial profiling and wrong, I don’t. Maybe we will run into each other on a topic we agree on. Nice talking to you.

judochop's avatar

i’ve never said that all illegals here are brown so relax on your high horse please.
i sure hope that we can revisit this very question five years from now.

Pandora's avatar

@Hypocrisy_—Central Not sure what you meant. But does a sub class already exist in our society? I would have to say yes. I’m not saying it is right, I’m just saying that it is a fact and one that will always exist so long as there are those who wish not to better their own way of life. Heck my niece, come hell and high water would not go to school to save her life after 15.
She is just one example of thousands of children today. Just read the stats from your community and see how many make it to graduation.
Sub classes have existed for hundreds of years in many society. So long as power and wealth exist there will always be a sub class. For that to be gone you would have to erraticate greed. That will never happen.—

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Pandora I would say we have more of an underclass than a subclass. Yes there will always be people who could never see the benefit of a quality education and shut the door to many opportunities for themselves, but they are not barred from doing better if they so chose. But to say to these underachievers that because you are you will be the new pickers and laborers and that is as high as you are going because we need someone to do it and since you are the dumbest people guess who got the job, then they become the subclass similar to Blacks in the 20s through 40s. And as long as we have this greed you spoke if you will have illegals from Mexico. There will still be illegals from Europe and other places but I figure it is more of a better way of life for them and businesses here will have little to offer them.

Pandora's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The greed part was in general for the world. Not just the US. So I was not saying that it just applied to mexicans. I’m also not saying the uneducated do not have a chance nor should they be kept from education. I’m just saying that when you have no education you limit your possibilities and as a result you won’t get the cream of the crop jobs. Leaving yourself to hard labor because a harvard grad isn’t going to pick cherries or plow fields.. Heck they have a hard time as it is getting a manager job in McDonalds.
I was using your word of subclass but however you are right. Subclass is used more in a scientific way where as Underclass has more to do with social and economic standing in a society and usually applies to a minority group.

Nullo's avatar

Update: illegals are fleeing Arizona for places like California. By Jove, it works!

@gorillapaws Actually, interfacing with the rest of the world is part of what the federal government is supposed to do.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Nullo I agree that the federal government is supposed to interface with the rest of the world. I simply pointed out that this increases the intrusion of the Government, and add expenses which need to be paid for by raising taxes. People who say they are against government spending, increased taxes and invasive big government, but support measures like these are hypocrites.

Arisztid's avatar

@Nullo Yes it works… in redistributing the illegal population. Hence, the people who are going to be hit by it are legals who are either Mexican or who look like they might be Mexican. I am sure that any illegals who can get out of Arizona are going to… to other states in America. The legals are less likely to be able or willing to just up and move.

I am certain that more States shall pass a law like this. I hope Michigan does not because I really do not feel like being badgered due to this law because my people are mistaken for Hispanic (amongst other “brown” ethnicities like Native Americans).

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