Social Question

KNOWITALL's avatar

Is Trump so bad that you'd prefer Pence?

Asked by KNOWITALL (18882points) May 18th, 2018

Do you feel Trump is so bad that you’d rather give Pence a try?

Here’s his actual bio if you’d like to review before answering.
https://www.biography.com/people/mike-pence-071416

I’m truly interested, especially with impeachment being brought up as a possibility.

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126 Answers

johnpowell's avatar

Pence is a nutter too. But a somewhat stable one. Trump has something mentally wrong with him. Like he could flip out and push the big red button because he will get to live in a mountain with the only thing he loves. Ivanka.. And I mean loves in a sexual way.

Zaku's avatar

That’s not how my logic works about it.

Trump is obviously hard to be worse than in many, many ways. But some of those ways include some positive aspects. He’s incompetent, disgusting, offensive, self-contradictory, lying, idiotic, and very obviously terrible in many ways… but most of that also means he’s a great illustration of how terrible the policies he supports are. So at least he’s getting lots of attention raised not just against him, but against those terrible policies.

Pence has just as terrible policies, or I think quite possibly worse ones. But he’s not as obviously awful in the personal ways, which means as POTUS he might be a more effective force for evil policies, and one which draws less opposition to them.

So, Trump is immeasurably bad, and I’m afraid Pence might be worse. Or at least, worse for the world overall for him to be POTUS.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yes. As bad as Pence is his dominating personality trait isn’t malignant narcissism. Nor do I fear that Pence will reduce our standing on the world stage or completely alienate our allies. Nor does Pence spend his time absorbed in petty Twitter feuds with d-list celebrities instead of focusing on his job. And I doubt Pence will demand that national security briefings be reduced to a single page of bullet points that he still won’t bother to read.

Yellowdog's avatar

Why are so many people—like 51 percent, approving of the job Trump is doing?

Darth_Algar's avatar

51% of who?

Kardamom's avatar

Plus, if Pence became President, I would relish watching all of the gays try to convince him to come out of the closet. I would really enjoy watching that.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Darth_Algar The 51 % that voted for him in the Presidential election, the 49% are having second thoughts !

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I would certainly take pence over trump

kritiper's avatar

Yes. (gag)

Demosthenes's avatar

Pence would probably be a more competent and articulate president, but policy-wise the outcome might be similar in the end. So in the immortal words of Hillary Clinton: what difference does it make?

Yellowdog's avatar

Hillary’s ” immortal words” you mention were to absolve herself of any fault in the Benghazi terrorist attack. Angry at this being pointed out—Not exactly good choice for a quote

The 51% I mentioned is the Rasmussen Pole. Its been over 50% approval rating for several weeks now. That is more than the number who voted for him. Pretty incredible considering the media most people hear every day

Tropical_Willie's avatar

You understand @Yellowdog Trump pays for the Rasmussen POLL don’t you !

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Yellowdog

Again, 51% of who? I didn’t asked who conducted the poll, I asked who was polled? This matters, as you can get vastly different results depending on who groups are being polled. That’s one reason why you shouldn’t put much stock in polls.

filmfann's avatar

You don’t want Pence as President with a Republican congress and Senate.
The best strategy is to delegitamize Trump as President until the congress changes hands.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@filmfann understands the gambit needed to win the chess game

syz's avatar

In some ways, Pence is more dangerous than Trump. He’s an extremist, and he’s a hate-filled bigot who should never hold any sort of office.

Yellowdog's avatar

Yes, I heard he wants to put Gays in concentration camps and force them to convert to straight Christian men! You can hear the vitriol and lies in his voice

MrGrimm888's avatar

Short answer is yes.

@filmfann has the right idea. I just hate that such a strategy need be followed.

flutherother's avatar

What I find difficult to understand is not why 40% or 50% of the American public approve of Trump’s presidency but why anyone at all thinks he is doing a good job.

basstrom188's avatar

I gather that Pence is something of a religious “nutjob”. If he were ever to become president (perhaps through the impeachment of Trump) who knows who he might draw into his circle. Do you want your country turned into a Christian version of Iran?

Demosthenes's avatar

@basstrom188 Thankfully because of that little document called the Constitution, he wouldn’t be able to do that.

LostInParadise's avatar

I prefer Trump over Pence. It is easier to rally resistance against Trump because he says such outlandish things.

Yellowdog's avatar

A “Christian version of Iran” is an oxymoron. The kind of government Iran has is a Muslim theocracy. There are no Christian theocracies. America is no more a Christian “theocracy” than Israel is a “Jewish” theocracy. Their societies are pluralistic.

Pence falls largely in the category of Franklin Graham, Jay Sekulow and Mike Huckabee. Not exactly Ayatollahs.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. Pence is definitely FAR too religious, for me, but I don’t worry about him destroying the world so quickly, as Trump. Maybe he’ll continue Trump’s work, and destroy what America is, but probably not the whole world. Probably….......

Darth_Algar's avatar

The US isn’t a Christian theocracy yet. But certain people, including Graham, Pence, etc, would sure as shit love to turn it in to one.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Pence would round up “people of Color”, Jews, Muslims, LBQT, native Americans AND atheists. ~ ~ ~ the gas chambers would be under construction. He is anti anyone not Fundamentalist Christian.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Oh come on, that kind of hyperbole doesn’t do anyone any favors.

Yellowdog's avatar

(1) Pence isn’t a fundamentalist. (2) Where is the evidence for this hatred of any those in your list?

I don’t doubt that you believe these things. However, I do not think this is rational thinking. Wasn’t Trump supposed to be sending people to the gas chambers?

MrGrimm888's avatar

No. Trump would prefer deportation.

Obama was supposed to put everyone in camps. I can remember seeing conservative news shows, showing satellite images of the camps. Pointing to them as proof, we should stop Obama, before the takeover…

Obama has us right where he wants us now. We won’t see it coming!...

Yellowdog's avatar

Yes—I believe what we were shown for the Obama camps were Fema camps.

A similar conspiracy theory was out pre-Y2K— that the Y2K crises (when computer clocks going from 1999 to 2000 was supposed to shut about 80% of the computer systems and power grids down) was a manufactured crises and Fema camps were going to be used for similar ends.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog Y2K was a real thing so were the FEMA camps. It was the point of view by some people that cause the conspiracy theories.

Yellowdog's avatar

The conspiracy theory was that Y2K wouldn’t “really” happen but some cabal was in place to cut the power and BLAME it on Y2K —and that the gov’t was going to place the population or certain populations, in the new FEMA camps—which were really Government – controlled prison camps.

notnotnotnot's avatar

The #Resistance certainly does – which shows how meaningless the #Resistance really is. What are they resisting, really? They consistently appear to be resisting bad manners and violation of norms. They are not able to articulate true opposition to the Trump agenda because they agree on much of it. They would just prefer to have it served up with taste, like Obama – or what Clinton had promised.

Me? No, of course not.

Zaku's avatar

The Vatican is a Christian theocracy.

Darth_Algar's avatar

The Vatican isn’t really a country however.

filmfann's avatar

The Vatican is considered an independent nation.

Yellowdog's avatar

Also known as, the Corporate Headquarters of the Worldwide Roman Catholic Church.

Some people CALL it a city… but in area its about the size of Mayberry, North Carolina.

Yet since it owes allegiance to no nation, its regarded as an independent nation.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yes, Vatican City is a sovereign state, but I think calling it a country or nation is stretching it considering that -

1: It is completely enclosed within the capital city of another nation

2: It’s miniscule in size

3: It has no native population

4: The population it does have numbers 1,000 or less

5: It has no forces for its own defense, instead relying on another nation for its defense

6: Likewise, apart from largely ceremonial guards, it has no real police force to speak of, again, relying on another nation for its policing, criminal prosecution and imprisonments.

Zaku's avatar

On the other hand, it has the most art, artifacts, and holy relics per capita of any nation…

Wait… Why are we arguing about whether Darth Algar considers the Valican a “real” country on a thread about the worst scumbag politicians in the USA?

Darth_Algar's avatar

Of what relevance is the Vatican’s per-capita artworks?

Zaku's avatar

If the topic is whether you think it’s a real country or not, I don’t know – only you can tell us the criteria for that.

I mentioned it to illustrate what it’s like for someone else to list a statistic that I assumed probably doesn’t seem actually relevant to whether it’s a country or not.

Personally, I’ve found the concentration of art a very good reason to consider it worth visiting (quite a few times, even), and I’ve never thought to question the “reality” of it’s country-ness. though of course you’re right that it lacks those typical qualities you mentioned.

Yellowdog's avatar

Zaku is right. Why are we discussing micronations? This is an echo chamber for what a sperm-sucking scumbag Pence is. Or maybe Trump. The Vatican is off topic.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Zaku

I did not say the Vatican was not worth visiting or anything of the sort. I said it’s not really a country. And it isn’t. It’s an enclave locked in the middle of a country’s capitol city.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I would think it’s power/influence larger than many nations. That’s kind if relevant, right?

Zaku's avatar

To me, it’s not relevant to whether a nation is a “real” nation or not. I’ve been there – it’s real. It’s really a nation. It may be quite atypical and lacking things most nations have, but that’s not relevant to any “real” use of the phrase “real nation” I’d use unless I were speaking very informally.

Yellowdog's avatar

The Vatican is a nation in the sense that they are not under any other nation—but all they are is the worldwide headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Correct. One of the most powerful religions, in the world.

Darth_Algar's avatar

I would think a nation would at least be capable of musturing a defense of its own, but whatevs. My point was the Vatican isn’t really a good example to use considering that’s basically corporate HQ, only with the benefit that it’s above the law of the country it sits in. Again, there’s no native population, and no one resides there who isn’t employed by the company. Its sovereign status only exists as a consolation prize for having to give up temporal control over Italy back in the 1800s.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog I posed this question because I wasn’t sure if the liberals could hate anyone more than President Trump, as he is not a religious zealot like Pence (some people label him that.)

Every thread that is political is always an echo chamber on this site, get used to that.

MrGrimm888's avatar

On conservative sites, there’s lots of random opinion though huh? From what conservatives opine here, I doubt that…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 No, but that is not the question. This site has no political disclaimer about being a liberal site or that conservatives aren’t welcome, you only discover that by spending time here.

Back five years ago it may have been more intense and we had to use more critical thinking skills to actually ‘debate’ properly, but it was far more fair in hearing differing opinions without shutting people down.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Oh please. For 10 years I’ve heard conservatives whine about being “shut down” anytime more people disagree with their view than agree with it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Darth_Algar Well yes Obama had eight years in during the last ten years, so that’s logical.

Yellowdog's avatar

But look at how good the economy is NOW! It took eighteen months for us to see the results of eight wonderful years of Obama..

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog Ikr!!! :) Good one.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Darth_Algar @Yellowdog
So see below. What decision would you have made? Knowing that Roseanne Barr is VERY liberal and hates Reps. Would you keep her on-air or cancel?

The “Roseanne” reboot has been cancelled by ABC after Roseanne Barr tweeted that Former President Barack Obama aide Valerie Jarrett was the offspring of “Muslim Brotherhood” and the “Planet of the Apes.”

https://937thebull.iheart.com/content/2018-05-29-roseanne-cancelled-by-abc-after-comedians-tweets/

Darth_Algar's avatar

Roseanne Barr is far from “very liberal” and she’s been a Trump supporter for years. But beyond that her entire career has been based on being as obnoxious and offensive as possible. Today it caught up wth her.

As far as ABC goes: they’re doing the natural thing for them to do – looking out for their own interests. When you force your employer to chose between you or their bottom line you’re not going to come out on the winning end of that choice.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Yellowdog is correct. This is the work of Obama. It took him two terms to get us out of the tailspin GW put us in. Even someone with rudimentary understanding of economics, knows Trump is NOT responsible for our growth. Good point.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Tap Tap @MrGrimm888 I think @Yellowdog was trying to give Trump credit for the improvement of the economy (things like that take years) by saying 18 month of Trump’s Presidency turne things around.

I missed your tilde !

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’m not one for subtlety, or bullshit. Trump taking credit for the economy, is priceless. His base is easily fooled….

That’s why I don’t understand them. Why would you support someone who is obviously using you?.....SMH…...

Zaku's avatar

@Darth_Algar Oh I see where you’re coming from now. I only mentioned the Vatican as an example of a Christian Theocracy in reply to @Yellowdog stating that there were no Christian Theocracies.

@KNOWITALL The site Fluther has no political orientation. There just are more people here who are disgusted with current Republican politicians, than aren’t. And speaking for myself, the strength of my expression of disapproval and contempt for Trump, Pence, and some others is a reflection of how preposterous and offensive I find them, or of positions that try to legitimize them. I don’t mean to be unwelcoming to conservatives or even Trump supporters, and I am really interested in understanding how/why anyone can approve of them, but it’s such a disconnect with my thinking and values that there’s no real way to express my reactions except in extreme terms.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Zaku Every time one of us tries to explain, we get called names, it’s very rarely a respectful thread, which is why I’m so disappointed. I’ve been on this site before Trump, trust me, I can definately tell a huge difference. A negative one.

I guess my point to someone like you would be, if you can’t listen, how can anyone explain? I’m a christian who has gay and trans friends, my first boyfriend was Vietnamese, I don’t really attend church regularly but I believe in God and try to live my life according to the values I cherish. We don’t all fit in a little box, which is where we’re all being thrown lately, as racists, as anti this or that, or my least favorite, that if we support anything that Trump does, we’re all jerks just like he is.

One thing I can say for many conservatives in my area, which is very Red and pro-Trump, I heard all kinds of good things about Obama. My husband and I were on the ACA, I embraced the changes, as did many others that normally would be labelled conservative. All I’m saying is that we’re not all bad people and I don’t think that just because you don’t understand our values or mindset, means we should be called names or labelled as racists or any of the garbage going on on this site, or in the world in general. I’m just very disappointed that everyone is so busy talking or screaming that there’s no listening or thinking.

Over 40 million people voted for Trump, that’s a lot of people in the world to disparage. I’m not sure that’s the best strategy for 2020 either, all it does is alienate the conservative voters even more. For instance, everyone knows I’ve voted both parties. Do you think people can be coerced into voting Democrat in 2020 after four years of being called a racist by liberals, especially if they are not in any way, shape or form? This whole adverserial stance is really off-putting, and I’m afraid Dems are taking it too far.

PS Some people who voted for Trump regret it. Don’t for a minute think that’s not the case, but there’s also a lot who are standing by their vote, for now. Many of us do not overlook his tweets or lies, or bimbo’s, or switching parties, or claiming religion then not, etc….we are watching. He’s scored some major points and lost some major points.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Zaku

Fair enough. I didn’t really explain my stance the best way ether.

Zaku's avatar

@KNOWITALL “Every time one of us tries to explain, we get called names, it’s very rarely a respectful thread, which is why I’m so disappointed. I’ve been on this site before Trump, trust me, I can definately tell a huge difference. A negative one.”
– Yes, it’s amazing and distressing how polarized and hostile and non-communicating the conversations around US politics have become anywhere there’s disagreement. I see it on practically every online forum. It’s been quite dysfunctional for over ten years and getting worse, and got a lot worse since 2016.

“I guess my point to someone like you would be, if you can’t listen, how can anyone explain?”
– That is a very excellent and well-taken point!

“We don’t all fit in a little box, which is where we’re all being thrown lately, as racists, as anti this or that, or my least favorite, that if we support anything that Trump does, we’re all jerks just like he is.”
– Also a great and valid point. Hopefully we can all try better not to do that. I imagine we rarely think or notice that we’re doing that, if we are. I think it’s probably usually that we’re very upset about the situation and topic, and we can’t even quite believe or even keep track of the ways Trump seems terrible, and so it seems incomprehensible that anyone would support him and not find it imperative to acknowledge how bad he is, and that ends up short-circuiting how we word our reactions.

“One thing I can say for many conservatives in my area, which is very Red and pro-Trump, I heard all kinds of good things about Obama. My husband and I were on the ACA, I embraced the changes, as did many others that normally would be labelled conservative. All I’m saying is that we’re not all bad people and I don’t think that just because you don’t understand our values or mindset, means we should be called names or labelled as racists or any of the garbage going on on this site, or in the world in general. I’m just very disappointed that everyone is so busy talking or screaming that there’s no listening or thinking.”
– I certainly understand that. The part that’s hard to get, and that I think leads to some of the screaming, is how any reasonable person can support Trump given the things the media we get tends to show us about him.

“Over 40 million people voted for Trump, that’s a lot of people in the world to disparage. I’m not sure that’s the best strategy for 2020 either, all it does is alienate the conservative voters even more. For instance, everyone knows I’ve voted both parties. Do you think people can be coerced into voting Democrat in 2020 after four years of being called a racist by liberals, especially if they are not in any way, shape or form? This whole adverserial stance is really off-putting, and I’m afraid Dems are taking it too far.”
– I think the whole Dem versus Rep perspective is a farce that’s artificially fueled to suck up most of the political attention of the country, so we don’t notice that both parties are farcically full of corrupt folks who don’t represent the people and mainly support corporate interests. Almost all of the candidates the parties offer us to vote for one or the other are tools of the parties and corporations.

I think the best we can do without a popular takeover of the parties and/or a re-design of our voting system, is to at least call out the worst of the corruption and corporate tools and criminals, and vote for the least terrible candidates. Unfortunately they keep offering us terrible people.

Regardless of the future of the Democrats, I think it should be everyone’s place to speak out when they think a politician is clearly off-the-charts horrible in even one way. One would think it wouldn’t need to extend to also insulting everyone who supports Trump, but sadly it tends to seem like that makes sense when seeing what looks so off-the-charts awful to us.

“PS Some people who voted for Trump regret it. Don’t for a minute think that’s not the case, but there’s also a lot who are standing by their vote, for now. Many of us do not overlook his tweets or lies, or bimbo’s, or switching parties, or claiming religion then not, etc….we are watching. He’s scored some major points and lost some major points.”
– I know some (hopefully most) people who voted for Trump regret it to one degree or another. Of course, part of their “vote” was also about all the hatred for Hillary and/or the DNC rigging the primary for her. Sadly our voting system didn’t allow any viable expression of a “someone we actually like and want to be president” vote!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Zaku I love your entire response. Thank you!

MrGrimm888's avatar

GA @Zaku . I think it’s common for those of us who dislike Trump, to lump all his supporters into the stereotypical MAGA hat wearing idiot standing behind him at a rally. The ones who cheer for his hateful rhetoric, and clearly are indeed terrible people. In a recent rally, Trump.simply repeated the word “Obama, ” over and over to deafening boos from his supporters. He didn’t elaborate, he just said Obama. Those people surely can’t represent all his supporters.

@KNOWITALL . Surely you understand that we aren’t debating a movie. Trump’s agenda, and actions, are hurting lots of people. If he succeeds at destroying the ACA, tens of millions of people will be negatively affected. Thousands will simply die. If he gets his way, he’ll deport millions more people who I consider fellow countrymen. If the GOP gets their way, millions of women will lose their rights to make decisions about their own bodies.

There’s more of course, but those few issues are extremely important. It’s hard to be civil when so many lives are at risk. It’s harder to understand what concessions the “good” conservatives are willing to make by hurting so many people , just to get small returns. I don’t get it. It seems contradictory to what conservatives claim are their values.

The trade off, seems clear to me. “Kill millions of people? Ok. If there is a small chance that gay people can’t get married, sure. You gotta deal.” There’s plenty to be passionate about. I am sorry that you get blamed for the aspects of the conservative agenda that you don’t support. I am greatfull that you take the care to thoughtfully explain your positions, instead of just talking about things Obama may, or may not have done. I think that’s easily what frustrates me the most. How can a rational, thoughtful, articulate person give any support to an administration that is bent on hurting so many? I’m flummoxed…

Pandora's avatar

Choosing between Pence and Trump is like choosing which way do you want to die. Drowning after being water boarded a few hundrend times or being set on fire, or slowly being crushed, or lung cancer with no drugs for the pain and which ever one you choose, you are also deciding for all your friends and family members. Exchanging one demon for another isn’t actually a solution. I don’t want them to impeach him. I want them to void his Presidency and kick his whole cabinet out. It’s already been proven that any clown can run things for a while, while we run a Russian free election with new Republicans and Democrats.They could have Bush and Obama co-chair for a year.

flutherother's avatar

40 million people voted for Trump and I know they are mostly ordinary decent Americans who despise liars, draft dodgers, womanisers and cheaters. The puzzle for me is that while they look down on such people in their day to day life they seem to accept it and even defend it in their country’s leader.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Where I live, there’s a name for them. “Lost souls. ”

LostInParadise's avatar

It is particularly surprising that Trump has such strong support among evangelicals. Trump may support their causes, but he is such a sinner.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^The Republican party uses pressure point topics, to use Christian voters…

They will apparently sacrifice much of their ethics, for small/potential gains elsewhere.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I understand some policies may hurt people, but I can’t debate that with you in a logical way when abortion is still legal and paraded as a woman’s right while you kill generations of women. Moral ambiguity is interesting isn’t it?

@LostInParadise Trump is a sinner, as are all of us. We had to choose between Hillary and Trump. I’m not sure why that’s so hard to understand. He was the closer of the two to conservative value system and moral code, even if he isn’t that close.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Which says all that really needs to be said about the conservative “value code”.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Darth_Algar The liberal moral code includes killing babies, so I guess we all have to draw the line where we are comfortable.

Darth_Algar's avatar

No, the liberal moral code includes allowing people sovereignty over their own bodies. Big difference.

Zaku's avatar

There is a big difference but I think this is a great example of @KNOWITALL explaining what we (whose minds can’t even count all the things we can’t stand about Trump) don’t get about people who have some support for Trump.

In this case, that abortion seems more awful to them than whatever other negatives they may see about Trump. I’ve known some other smart, nice, reasonable-seeming people who were the same: they’d listen and nod and tell you you had lots of good points about various issues and candidates, and then say they wouldn’t vote for anyone who wouldn’t oppose legal abortion, as that “trumped” all the other considerations.

I might do the same for a candidate who I thought could make a huge difference for my main issue too (but sadly there are no viable US candidates championing saving non-human (or even human) species from extinction at the hands of industry).

Darth_Algar's avatar

But has Trump even taken a position (for whatever it’s worth, considering how reliable the man’s word is) on abortion one way or the other? I could have missed something, but it doesn’t seem like an issue that within his radar.

Zaku's avatar

@Darth_Algar Yes, he’s pro-life, but not as rabidly as Pence.
https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/laws-policy/federal-government/donald-trump-abortion/

Abortion is also only one of the possible issues that could drive someone to vote for Trump over Clinton, or for Trump over whatever other candidate.

There’s such a deep polar identity gap going on, that apparently a frightening fraction prefer an abominable representative of “their side” to anyone from “the other side.”

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Zaku Yes, it’s only ONE of the issues, but it’s a big one. People literally wait to see who Right To Life endorses before voting, it’s a big deal.

OF ALL Donald Trump’s policy contortions none is more dramatic—some would say incredible—than his position on abortion. In 1999 he described himself as “very pro-choice.” During his presidential campaign, after some ambiguous statements about what he believed, Mr Trump published a written statement declaring that he was “pro-life with some exceptions”. By the time he became president his transformation into ardent pro-lifer seemed complete. This week, he designated January 22nd, the anniversary of Roe v Wade, “National Sanctity of Life Day” and declared that “the fight to protect life is not yet over”.

Since Jerry Falwell and the leaders of the Moral Majority movement grabbed on to abortion in the late 1970s it has become the single most important voting issue for many religious conservatives. While the percentage of Americans who say abortion should be legal in all or most cases has risen slightly since 2015 (to 57% from 51%), 70% of white evangelicals have held firm on the issue. Even as younger evangelicals move towards liberal positions on many issues—most strikingly gay marriage—abortion remains for them a litmus test issue of a politician’s worth.

https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2018/01/25/why-donald-trump-has-become-a-pro-life-crusader

@Darth An adult isn’t as helpless as a child, that changes things pretty dramatically for me, it’s called personal responsibility. Having intercourse or not, safe or not, is a choice, except for the 2% (rape/ incest.)

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

You do realize that Donald Trump has never held a sincere position on anything in his life, right?

It’s not a child until it is born, and for as long as it resides within the body of another it has no personhood.

Yellowdog's avatar

What is it then? A rhinoceros? A clock radio? A lightbulb? A pack of chewing gum?

Is there something about the birthing process that magically turns it into a baby? The argument you’re making is not logical

flutherother's avatar

It is a fetus and yes, there is something magical about being born.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Here we go again. Conservatives actually caring about another person, until it’s born….

Yellowdog's avatar

“Poof”! It turned into a BABY!

Even at four months in the womb, the child plays with his/her fingers, blinks its eyes, has dreams, and responds to outside stimuli, music, and voices.

If you ever see a video of when the curvette cuts the baby into pieces the physical reaction, I think your view would change, no matter how sick and poisoned your mind currently is. Right now, I think it shows your true colors. your concern about human rights and the right to life.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’m sorry that you see me supporting women’s rights, as “sick and poisoned.”

I’m also thinking about the baby, or fetus, or whatever you like to call it. Quality of life is important to me. Life is extremely hard. Trying to do it with nobody wanting, or helping you is more cruel than normal life. Or trying to get a good start as a crack baby , who will be in and out of orphanages. At 18, the child will be on their own. If they weren’t fortunate enough to have been adopted, which many aren’t.

Do yourself a favor and watch some videos of an adult dying slowly of something preventable. Tell me then, which video is worse. That’s what will start happening, when the ACA is destroyed.

I propose that caring about an unborn child, but not a born person is hypocritical, and ethically twisted.

Human rights? I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean that we all have a “right” to live? No. Conservatives only care about a right to be born. Which isn’t a real thing, is it?
A “right” is a human construct. In a perfect world, I would be “pro-life.” However, we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in this one.

The selective morals of the conservative mind, never cease to amaze me. Right now, the GOP, and Trump, are working to hurt tens of millions of people. But that’s not important to conservatives. Until conservatives value all life. I have no ears for preaching moral superiority. If you want to help “life” stop acting like you care, and do something. Stop being manipulated by the Republican party. They dangle that abortion carrot in front of you, and you sell out the majority of the people in this country. Wake up…

I was tempted to fire back hard here. But I understand that you are passionate about abortion. I respect your stance. You could back up your ethics, by thinking about more than fetuses.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Considering the policies, vis-a-vis those actually born and living in this world, that conservatives today support they lose any high ground when talking about human rights. Start giving a shit about people who are actually here, start supporting policies to that end, then maybe I’ll regard your concern for the unborn as anything more than hypocritical finger wagging.

Yellowdog's avatar

The United Methodist Church has a program called Hannah’s Hope—helps women for many years during the pregnancy and years after. It is also an adoption agency, for those who choose that route.

I know a woman whom I worked with (she needed transportation from work) whom I got connected with a ministry called Life Choices when her boyfriend abandoned her when she got pregnant and didn’t get an abortion. Life Choices helped her for about two years, but she eventually went to live with relatives in Florida because, well, she and I were both working a dead end job, and she needed a new start in life.

I also know a girl / woman who HAD an abortion. She didn’t know she had options and is still dealing with it. I tell her continually that she made the best decision with the information she was given. She would not have been supported by her family or boyfriend and would have had to give up her job without income. She didn’t know what help was available and Planned Parenthood did what it is best known for,

There is a lot of help and support for young mothers through the process of pregnancy, birth,and motherhood—not just from the church, but from the YWCA, and even help from the Salvation Army (but I recommend a well established church ministry or the YWCA.

Darth and MrGrimm: Your very TALKING POINTS are convincing women that their only option is abortion. That really MAY be true in some cases, but a tremendous amount of help is available to help women find their way—that child is worth more to them than whatever they had to give up. Quit spewing your propaganda. We have no orphanages in this country. Many are wanting to adopt, and many women are choosing to raise their own children,

We ARE lacking womens’ shelters in my city for women who suddenly find themselves on the street outside of an abusive home or loss of a job—I don’t think you can lay that burden on conservatives as it is a societal problem. but plenty of options are available for women who choose life and need support.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 That’s not okay. I love kids so much that I chose not to have any of my own so I could dedicate my life to helping others, including kids. That’s untrue and not a kind thing to say.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Yellowdog

Then why are their hundreds of thousands of children who languish in the system, moving from one (often abusive) foster home to another their entire childhood until they age out of the system and are left to fend for themselves?

That notwithstanding your example of one church providing services, however swell it may be, does nothing to address the systemic ills that are made worse by the petty, mean-spirited policies that today’s conservatives support. It’s putting a band-aid on a superficial scratch while letting the abscess fester because treating the abscess would be socialist.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . With all due respect, you are hurting far more people than you help… I know that you would vote your conscious, so I respect that. But, you are participating in the destruction of many lives, by supporting Trump, and the GOP.

@Yellowdog . I’m afraid that I don’t believe your “friend’s” abortion story. I call bullshit. “She didn’t know her options?” Are you kidding me? Seriously?

I hear conservatives paint planned parenthood, as places pushing abortions. Why the fuck, would anyone do that?
That’s conservative media bullshit, and you either know that, or are being deliberately obtuse.

Knowing your intellectual capacity, I cannot believe your stance.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Guess I’ll just let the world burn then. Such a joke.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@KNOWITALL

Yeah, that’s pretty much what your vote for Trump amounts to.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL . I suppose you’re right. At least you’re trying…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I am trying, I’m trying really hard to understand the pov here, but with everyone antagonizing each other, I’m not surprised at the point we’ve reached in society. It’s a shame, because you’ve got the opportunity to change my mind, and I think a lot like the Red states who got Trump into office except I lean very left on social issues. Make me understand why you’re right and I’m wrong.

PS Name-calling and antagonizing are not adult responses in mature discourse. We can be better than celebrities and politicians here, surely.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Well. Like I said. I think you are making big moral sacrifices, to try to change some smaller things.i.e. I doubt that you want people to die of treatable illnesses, but I think you trade that, for the possibility of abortions being banned…

So. You’re potentially helping in one area, while definitely hurting people in another area.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t go after abortions, if that’s your thing. But surely there are ways to pursue your goals, without hurting so many others, by supporting the GOP. Considering that it’s likely that abortion will always be legal, it makes it an especially unfair compromise to your values…. Well. What I think some of your values are….

Darth_Algar's avatar

To be clear, legalized abortion is not going to go anywhere. That ship sailed long ago. Conservatives beat that drum because they know it plays well with their voter base, but they also know that there’s no law they pass that could stand up to a Constitutional challenge. So if that’s your reason for voting for someone like Trump then you might want to reconsider.

basstrom188's avatar

I assume Pence would blurr the division of church and state in your country?

KNOWITALL's avatar

@basstrom188 I believe it would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for many people who have are not theists. If they get this upset over Trump, I can’t even imagine the reaction to a true religious zealot. As a theist, I’m not sure I’d even like to see that.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’ve said before, if Trump would just shut his stupid mouth, he’d take a LOT of pressure off of himself. Lots of people hate him because of who he is, or the persona he puts forth. I hated him decades ago.

I hate for his personality, and agendas. I’ll admit that he would be an easier pill to swallow, if he was just quietly destroying the country…

Yellowdog's avatar

Are you forgetting that Jimmy Carter was a religious and openly practicing “born again” Christian, a close friend of Billy Graham.

Ronald Reagan was a religious Episcopalian, as I think were the Bushes.

Bill Clinton was a friend of Christian evangelist/comedian Tony Campolo and also a friend of Billy Graham.

Obama was a Christian, too. He went to that minister’s church, Jeremiah Wright, who said that White people had it coming / deserved to die, and after the destruction of the Twin Towers, said we deserved it and ‘Not God Bless America but God Damn America” an endless litany of times.

Trump is nonreligious but has Lutheran and Presbyterian heritage in his background.

Given this long list of presidents who are Christian, why does it all of the sudden bother you that Pence is a Christian ?

MrGrimm888's avatar

Being a Christian, and pushing a radically Christian agenda, are two very different things…

Yellowdog's avatar

And what makes you say that Pence pushes a radically Christian agenda?

He has been a Radio Talk Show host for many years and a guest on a lot of T.V. shows. You can’t always take the words of the fine ladies of ‘The View’ for who Pence is,

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’ve never once watched “The View.” As with Trump, I judge Pence, by his own words.

KNOWITALL's avatar

While I normally would agree with you @Yellowdog, I’m afraid @MrGrimm888 may be right on this one. He’s said in the past he would oppose any legislation to protect LGBTQ’s, firmly in the Koch bros pockets, and ambitious. See below, pretty good article and sums up a lot from Indiana.

But after he was elected he began taking controversial far-right stands that, critics believed, were geared more toward building his national profile than toward serving Indiana voters.

It showed Pence surrounded by monks and nuns, along with three of the most virulently anti-gay activists in the state. The image went viral. Indiana residents began examining the law more closely, and discovered that it essentially legalized discrimination against homosexuals by businesses in the state.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/23/the-danger-of-president-pence

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Correct. And as with immigrants, or anyone else I consider my “fellow Americans,” I will try not to align with anyone opposing them.

There are multiple things that Pence could pursue, that I would be vehemently opposed to. There’s a reason that this q, was phrased the way it is @Yellowdog . The OP, understands Pence’s views, and agenda.

I like the question. For liberals, or liberal minded people, removing Trump, could be going from the frying pan, into the fire…

KNOWITALL's avatar

haha, well with all the hate of Trump and calls for impeachment, I just wanted to remind folks that Pence could be worse in some ways, so be careful what you wish for.

Thanks for the compliment!

MrGrimm888's avatar

^You’re right. And we get that. But Trump is the priority, I hope. We’ll have to deal with Pence when we get him. I think he’s been bidding his time, and smartly staying out of the spotlight. He knows why he’s VP. He’s the plan B. If the GOP doesn’t get held accountable in midterms, he’ll be a better guy than Trump at advancing the Republican agenda. It could be a perfect storm…

Yellowdog's avatar

Okay then. At least yaw’ll are getting along in agreement.

I was born a hermaphrodite so I guess that makes me a little transgender.
Please don’t impeach Trump. Pence might target me in the mix..

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@Yellowdog if you are in anyway in a minority, like female, colored, LBGT, over 75, sick, have a low IQ, Jewish, Muslim or atheist; he going to get the lawnmower and mow you down!

Yellowdog's avatar

Well, I’m not Muslim or Atheist or over 75 but I might be all the rest.

I will let him chase me with the lawn mower around my yard and get my grass cut for free

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog Most of us get along fairly well, don’t worry about that! The ones who are jerks, we just don’t reply to most of the time. :)

Really a hermaphrodite? Wow, interesting!! Don’t hear that often!
Yes, that’s actually my biggest worry about Pence, among many.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Pence’s declared statements about the LBGT community are startling. His unfiltered beliefs, are probably far worse. His “type,” need to die out…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I don’t think they need to die out, that’s kind of mean. The thing is that theists need to reconcile love and acceptance with their interpretation of the bible.

Even for me, it was a pretty soul searching period, trying to resolve it for me and me alone. Then as I talked to more theists about it, I realized it wasn’t about the LGBTQ’s as people or sexual beings, it was about the bible verses themselves and how they could be good christians if they approved or tacitly approved via voting, for LGBTQ rights, SSM, etc…

IMO, Jesus told us to love each other and help each other, not to judge anyone, so if being gay is a sin (which is only up to God), then that’s still between a person and their deity, not me. My only job is to spread love and tell people who are interested about God, nothing more or less.

We humans tend to want to be God’s enforcers, saying what’s right and wrong, according to OUR INTERPRETATION of the bible, but to me that’s God’s job, not ours. Many theists disagree though, which I think is really sad.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Pardon me. I did not mean theists should die out. Extremists like Pence, can die, and I hope Hell does exist, so he can spend eternity there. I’ll be there too I guess. I’ll make sure his afterlife sucks…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Oh boy, it’s hard for me to read that….lol “I’ll be there too I guess. I’ll make sure his afterlife sucks…”

But my point was actually that the religious need to figure it out or religion will die out (ya ya, I know many of you think it should) because many of us younger generations don’t go for social inequality and we won’t accept it or contribute money to it.

Pence is simply a product of his religion without critical thinking imo, which is odd for an Irish Catholic, usually they are not hardliners about social issues like that, at least not in my area of the midwest.

The difference for me, is that I don’t feel people who think differently from me are bad people (or deserve to die out), I think they are just misinformed or not “woke” to the fact that racism and bigotry are no longer acceptable to most of society anymore. They need help.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Standing ovation! GA.

“The difference for me, is that I don’t feel people who think differently from me are bad people.”
I’m sorry, but I’ll hold you on this one. You said you don’t go to places that your LGBTQ friends aren’t allowed. Well. The GOP is trying to make that “America.”

Just saying. Will you move if that community suffers?

I truly admire your open love for the LGBTQ community. I believe it is sincere. But almost every vote for a republican, in most offices, represents a hope for negative impact on the LGBTQ community…

Do you consider the impact that voting for the GOP, will have on your friends?
You admirably claim that you do not frequent churches, because your gay friends aren’t welcome. What about the GOP?

That’s where I hit a stump. How can you support your LGBTQ friends, while (simultaneously) putting people in office who have nothing but illl will, towards your friends?

How can you not see this as rolling the dice on abortions, in exchange for hurting tens of millions of people?

Why is an unborn “child” something worth helping, as opposed to a human already living?

I just cannot see the ethical difference…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 (Hold me)- giggle…

I really don’t like to discuss this here, but because you’ve been pleasant I will briefly.

Let me tell you the difference between abortion and LGBTQ equality. LGBTQ’s have a choice when it comes to being ‘out’ or not, hiding it or being open (like SSM). Babies who were conceived through no choice of their own, have zero options.

Actually, as someone who has told me they love animals and nature, would you be able to turn your back on a living puppy who was thrown on the road by your home? I don’t think so. And neither would I. And those are not human beings.

Second, as far as my friends, I have a trans friend who waited til she was over age 60 to transition so her parents wouldn’t be offended. She is planning to go this year to her class reunion as a woman, and I am hella proud of her. I also have a friend who is now the first openly gay man to hold office in our small rural town of 2500, which I encouraged and recommended to the committee.

What I feel like my obligation is, is to get the folks who look sideways at them to confront ME about it. Then we have a discussion. If they can’t get over it, they are welcome to leave and if they keep their mouths shut to my friends, they are still considered my friends. If they can’t get over it, then leave and don’t come back. If they mouth off, I will get in their face and they will leave. Period.

During my run for my first term several years ago, my trans friend came to my election watch party, and got a few looks but one friend of mine made a comment “is that a chick or a dude?” and I heard it, and I gave him a warning look. Nothing further was said and all was well.

I also had a committee member make a joke about my gay friend, and as an older man I knew that was his upbringing, but I made a light quip about “none of us are free of sin, we just sin differently” and he shut up. (History there for that man that I was pointing out.)

Trust me, we’ll get there and I will be part of the solution. I don’t agree with the part of the GOP that doesn’t accept LGBTQ equality, which is part of the reason I ran for public office. Be the change you want to see. I don’t just spout this stuff, I’m pushing, which is what I do best.

I posted a meme “I’m straight- but not narrow. I support LGBTQ equality” just this week, I got exactly three likes, which is pathetic. But it’s a RED state in Missouri, I’m trying.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Thanks for elaborating. I still don’t get it…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Then you never will and that’s okay. You don’t vote so I don’t need to sway you, and you’re a man so you won’t be having one, no harm no foul…lol

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’m actually against the procedure (abortion.) But I feel a woman has the right to make her own decisions about her health, and whatever other lifeforms she carries.

You’re correct. I don’t vote, and if I could get pregnant, it definitely would have happened already.

My biggest problem with abortion, is that the father has no say. I can’t imagine how it must feel to lose a child by the mother’s hand. But. I guess if I was meant to make those decisions, I would have been born a female…

I guess I see this as another slippery slope. Like with gun bans. If abortion is banned, what else? Why not throw pregnant women in jail for smoking.
Why not tie them down and make all their decisions, until the child is born?
I guarantee that there are people who wouldn’t think that’s a bad idea…

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I get it, it’s a complicated issue. My mind agrees it should be a womans choice, but my heart tells me that fetus is a child, like all of us were at one time, and is worthy of life.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^With all.due respect.
What does your heart tell you about the dozens of millions of people who will lose their health care, if the GOP succeeds at destroying the ACA?

What about deporting the “dreamers?”

Where does your heart stand on the environment?

You once asked @Mariah if she would trade abortion banning, for health care. She conceded that she would, begrudgingly.

I’m asking you to think about that. @Mariah cares deeply about both issues. But she went for the big picture. It was hypothetical, but she made a sacrifice for the greater good. You may do much more for humanity by getting the worst people out of power, and pursuing abortion issues as a separate endeavour. Seeing them as linked, is what the GOP is counting on.

Just saying…..

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I’ll think about it, I promise, but for me it’s about more than any one issue. Although that is a big one for me personally.

The point is, Mariah and I could reach an understanding and fix it, but the govt….not so sure.

Yellowdog's avatar

The ACA is precisely why many HAVE lost their health care.

They can no longer afford it. They can no longer afford the deductibles. They are no longer covered for all their health needs.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Yellowdog I guess no one remembers Obama’s speech about the ACA, when he said that if the young and healthy didn’t sign up and pay in, it wouldn’t work. He gave the disclaimer, so I wasn’t shocked at all that it didn’t work as planned. Young people always think they’re invincible.

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